Wow, that's very good.One interesting point is that it only took 2 people at Sucker Punch to do the Pro mode.
From what I've seen, the pro upgrade has better AF and sports a higher resolution than 1080p. It doesn't improve AA however, outside of less shimmering due to the high rez. That dev should have put TAA to good use here, it's the one thing they could improve on......If anyone at DF is reading, ETA for Overwatch analysis?
Man, DF and Leadbetter must have been playing lots of solid 60fps games on consoles all this time. A game falls to 56fps in the video at worst, it's mostly 60fps, but DF hates playing that way so much...Hell, he's only showing that mode because it's default and what the developer prioritizes. Such crappy framerates is not up to the DF standard surely and it's certainly not the way they like to play.....SMH..
The game has a 30fps capped mode use it, why are you trying to say negatives about a 60fps mode that's mighty impressive? Funny, I've heard some DF staff members say that Ryse has a solid framerate but yet it falls to the teens in many scenes on XB1. I wonder what DF will say next, With Witcher 3's framerate problems or Ryse or Just Cause, should they cap these to 15fps?
I've never seen a couple of frames down from 60fps causing so much pain before. DF staff must have absolutely hated COD on XB1 last gen, because the campaigns there were no way a locked 60fps....
Still upscaling by definition.... i dont see any problem with that, is not the native res at the end of the day, you are taking a base res and using a upscaling method to output a higher res.... is the "upscaled" word attached to a single method or something?No it's not it's a parallel rendering method that's now able to be done with a single GPU because they can run compute & the fixed function pipeline at the same time so instead of GPU-A & GPU-B rendering the odd & even checkerboard fields they are using compute to fill in for the second GPU by using information from the previous frame & other data to create the part of the frame that would have been done by GPU-B.
Don't mean to offend, It's just the constant guessing i.e. "I think" or "Cerny told me", and the constant bringing up of CheckerBoarding. I have watched several Vids and it's basically the same rhetoric. It's has a soft image? what the hell does that mean without a comprarison to show this soft you supposedly see.
The PS4 Pro has more to it than Soft and CheckerBoarding and the drumbeat of 60fps. Things we don't hear about in the analysis
New ID buffer for tracking triangles and objects, opening the door to advanced spatial and temporal anti-aliasing
Delta colour compression technology arrives in PS4 Pro, maximising memory bandwidth. Not seen in PS4
New features from AMD roadmap - the ability to run two FP16 operations concurrently instead of one FP32, plus the integration of a work scheduler for increased efficiency
Enhanced 16-bit half-float support
This is what I'm talking about when I say surface, it's the constant barrage of checkerboard, framerate, and we some something soft.
Look at the black of the image constantly shifting, on screen edges and even at the middle point of the image. A lot of the game is constantly washing out to black.
These images are captured fractions of a second a part:
This is not a PC game you can open up renderdoc and see the individual buffers, drawcalls, etc and point out "oh here they are tracking velocity much more accurately on PS4pro!". There is no point of direct reference to show the difference between native 4k in this title and the checkboarded and upscaled version you have. Likewise you cannot measure or show the difference of an FP16 shader vs an F32 in a console game without knowing where they are before hand, nor can you visually point out the effective usage of better compression.
It is a blackbox with very few analogous points of reference. DF tries to pry open that blackbox with the tools and info available. Spouting technical phrasing coming from SONY without being able to actually discuss its measurable effects on a per-game basis would be rather useless. It would also be highly speculative.
One interesting point is that it only took 2 people at Sucker Punch to do the Pro mode.
So because there is no way to do a proper test they are just guessing? And guessing consistently makes you an expert? I use DF for entertainment purposes only, they lost me back when battlefield 4 came out and they where explaining which console had better image quality. When the Xbox had clear black crush, which they latter admitted that their testing was wrong but because they would come to the same conclusion they were not going to recreate the videos.
You cant be an expert and lazy and provide misinformation. You complete a test and you provide the facts of that test. And you then do that consistently.
I actually think this is one example where the unlocked frame-rate is awesome. It holds pretty steady and looks great.
I preferred Shadowfall unlocked, I preferred I-SS and I-FL unlocked, these games average around 40fps , I-FL a little higher. The infamous games feels even better now at mostly 60fps on the Pro....Been playing Second Son on the Pro, I prefer the framerate option even if it does dip quite often. Game feels awful at at locked 30 once you've experienced the higher frame rate.
So it shows that perhaps with more optimization and more persons they most probably could have hit it locked, but who cares really when your framerate is that high already and you're just improving an older game for better perf and resolution in a few days. One thing is sure, this is a hefty performance and rez boost on top of the PS4 version, and I think many will want to play again at the higher framerate. With that said, HDR brings a significant boos to the games as well....and that can't be understated.So beautiful! It looks soo good at 50+ fps!
Also, the Pro Upgrade was put together by two Sucker Punch developers, that's really awesome!
So because there is no way to do a proper test they are just guessing? And guessing consistently makes you an expert? I use DF for entertainment purposes only, they lost me back when battlefield 4 came out and they where explaining which console had better image quality. When the Xbox had clear black crush, which they latter admitted that their testing was wrong but because they would come to the same conclusion they were not going to recreate the videos.
You cant be an expert and lazy and provide misinformation. You complete a test and you provide the facts of that test. And you then do that consistently.
but.. checkboard is a upscaling technique....whats the problem here?
I agree, although checkerboard is a very impressive upscaling technique.
But that is not what checkerboard does. It absolutely does not convert one size of buffer to a larger size of buffer. It is not upscaling.But that's like what upscaling means. Converting one lower res video signal to a higher res video signal.
There is no "before", 3200x1800 is the buffer size (half the pixels of which are calculated through the checkerboard method).What's the actual rendering resolution of this then? If its 1800p after checkerboard, what's it before?
It's not native, but it's not upscaling either. You're right that there are many methods of upscaling. But they all involve scaling--moving from one size image to another. That is not what checkerboard does.Still upscaling by definition.... i dont see any problem with that, is not the native res at the end of the day, you are taking a base res and using a upscaling method to output a higher res.... is the "upscaled" word attached to a single method or something?
That's right! Two fucking people FROM Software!One interesting point is that it only took 2 people at Sucker Punch to do the Pro mode.
but.. checkboard is a upscaling technique....whats the problem here?
No it's not it's a parallel rendering method that's now able to be done with a single GPU because they can run compute & the fixed function pipeline at the same time so instead of GPU-A & GPU-B rendering the odd & even checkerboard fields they are using compute to fill in for the second GPU by using information from the previous frame & other data to create the part of the frame that would have been done by GPU-B.
The other thing is this......How is infamous soft? This just seems like an effort to downplay the accomplishments here. It's not 4k native, it's not 3200x1800, it's 1800p checkerboarded says Leadbetter, it looks soft compared to what? What other version of this game? The PS4 version?...The downplaying of goodwork here is a headscratching tbh...
I have only covered two Pro games myself but I've done as much research as possible on the subject. That hurts to hear that as I pour a ton of effort into research but I can't be an expert on all things, obviously. Just doing the best I can within my limited space here. :-(
I can absolutely, 100% tell the difference between 59 and 60fps on a 60hz display. No tools required.
I actually think this is one example where the unlocked frame-rate is awesome. It holds pretty steady and looks great.
Rise of the Tomb Raider is 4K checkerboard, not 1800p checkerboardThe checkboarding has looked soft in terms of 1800p checkerboarding allegedly being able to be close, almost or near native 4k, it looks nothing like native 4k.
DF could or anyone with access could do a ROTTR and multiplat comparisons which pits checkboarding against standard PC 1800p and 1440p upscale to see how checkboarding fares.
I've seen SE screens of ROTTR 1800p checkerboarding look softer than PC 1440p screens. DF's ROTTR freebie video looks very soft but they never provide screens these days.
BF1 had some user screens posted of PS4 and PS4 Pro which looks very soft. Even had people posting when it was just video comparisons how its obviously not patched yet it was because difference was minimal. Considering PS4 is 900-1000p as well.
Titanfall 2 shows much improvement and its just standard 1440p (slight dynamically scaling) over the PS4's 900-1000p. Sharpness is easily seen.
Uncharted 4 is straight 1440p upscale. I can see the res improvement even of DF's compressed YouTube video from 8-10 ft away.
I'd love to see some honest comparisons to see if checkerboarding is doing its thing. It's certainly not a cheap way of achieving native 4k or being close on evidence so far so I'd like to see how checkerboarding holds up to standard 1800p and 1440p upscale. Screenshots are like rocking horse shit.
No, it is not.
Current checkerboard rendering has no relation to the multi-GPU solution from the 3DFX era so you should probably stop linking them. That's nearly as misleading as when people insist on calling it upscaling.
I do wish Richard would correct himself. Too many outlets defer to Digital Foundry's expertise on this stuff so having him perpetuate a false understanding of the tech is a significant problem.
Rise of the Tomb Raider is 4K checkerboard, not 1800p checkerboard
I'm unfortunately on a 1080p set so I can only speak from experience with downsampled images but Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare, which uses checkerboarding, looks far sharper and cleaner than Modern Warfare Remastered or Titanfall 2, which do not use it.
Not sure if that would hold up on a 4K display though.
2160p checkerboarded has looked very close to native 4k in side by side comparisons. Battlefield1 is lower than 2160p checkerboarded and also 1800p checkerboarded in terms of resolution and clarity, of course it was going to look a bit softer than the 4k native game running at max settings (textures, detail, effects, AF etc.) on the Titan X .The checkboarding has looked soft in terms of 1800p checkerboarding allegedly being able to be close, almost or near native 4k, it looks nothing like native 4k.
DF could or anyone with access could do a ROTTR and multiplat comparisons which pits checkboarding against standard PC 1800p and 1440p upscale to see how checkboarding fares.
I've seen SE screens of ROTTR 1800p checkerboarding look softer than PC 1440p screens. DF's ROTTR freebie video looks very soft but they never provide screens these days.
BF1 had some user screens posted of PS4 and PS4 Pro which looks very soft. Even had people posting when it was just video comparisons how its obviously not patched, yet it was but difference was minimal. Considering PS4 is 900-1000p as well.
Titanfall 2 shows much improvement and its just standard 1440p (slight dynamically scaling) over the PS4's 900-1000p. Sharpness is easily seen.
Uncharted 4 is straight 1440p upscale. I can see the res improvement even of DF's compressed YouTube video from 8-10 ft away.
I'd love to see some honest comparisons to see if checkerboarding is doing its thing. It's certainly not a cheap way of achieving native 4k or being close on evidence so far so I'd like to see how checkerboarding holds up to standard 1800p and 1440p upscale. Screenshots are like rocking horse shit.
Leadbetter said in his RoTR video that it's a full 2160p checkerboarded.Is there any documentation of ROTTR checkboarding? The Tomb Raider advert video just says 4k resolution, I hope you're not just referring to that. Is it in the eurogamer link? Is it two 1080p fields for 3840x2160p checkerboarding?
As for Infinite Warfare, I looked at some PS4 Pro and PC native 4k and the difference was obvious.
Leadbetter said in his RoTR video that it's a full 2160p checkerboarded.
According to Cerny, for 2160p checkerboarding it uses as base of 1920x2160
I'm sure you can tell a difference up close, but at standard viewing distances from a TV the differences are slightly minimized.
Don't mean to offend, It's just the constant guessing i.e. "I think" or "Cerny told me", and the constant bringing up of CheckerBoarding. I have watched several Vids and it's basically the same rhetoric. It's has a soft image? what the hell does that mean without a comprarison to show this soft you supposedly see.
The PS4 Pro has more to it than Soft and CheckerBoarding and the drumbeat of 60fps. Things we don't hear about in the analysis
New ID buffer for tracking triangles and objects, opening the door to advanced spatial and temporal anti-aliasing
Delta colour compression technology arrives in PS4 Pro, maximising memory bandwidth. Not seen in PS4
New features from AMD roadmap - the ability to run two FP16 operations concurrently instead of one FP32, plus the integration of a work scheduler for increased efficiency
Enhanced 16-bit half-float support
This is what I'm talking about when I say surface, it's the constant barrage of checkerboard, framerate, and we some something soft.
This is not a PC game you can open up renderdoc and see the individual buffers, drawcalls, etc and point out "oh here they are tracking velocity much more accurately on PS4pro!". There is no point of direct reference to show the difference between native 4k in this title and the checkboarded and upscaled version you have. Likewise you cannot measure or show the difference of an FP16 shader vs an F32 in a console game without knowing where they are before hand, nor can you visually point out the effective usage of better compression.
It is a blackbox with very few analogous points of reference. DF tries to pry open that blackbox with the tools and info available. Spouting technical phrasing coming from SONY without being able to actually discuss its measurable effects on a per-game basis would be rather useless. It would also be highly speculative.
So your blaming them for not being able to decode and analyze the game code on the fly with their bare eyes.
2160p checkerboarded has looked very close to native 4k in side by side comparisons. Battlefield1 is lower than 2160p checkerboarded and also 1800p checkerboarded in terms of resolution and clarity, of course it was going to look a bit softer than the 4k native game running at max settings (textures, detail, effects, AF etc.) on the Titan X .
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Leadbetter said in his RoTR video that it's a full 2160p checkerboarded.
According to Cerny, for 2160p checkerboarding it uses as base of 1920x2160
I'm sure you can tell a difference up close, but at standard viewing distances from a TV the differences are slightly minimized.
It's possible to have 2 different GPU binaries (OG & Pro) according to the PS4 SDK.I'm not convinced all of these elements will play a significant role in the system either - half floats, for instance, is interesting in concept but how useful will it be in practice when developers have to maintain support for the original machine as well. There is certainly an interesting discussion to be had there.
That would be 1800p then upscaled via checkerboard to 4k.What's the actual rendering resolution of this then? If its 1800p after checkerboard, what's it before?
Wow, that's very good.
Also they are nitpicking things like they can tell without their frame analysis if it's 59 fps or 60,not just them. The so called pc master race always complaining about headaches due to 139 fps instead of rock solid 144
What in the proverbial fuck would be the point of talking about any of that when analyzing and comparing a particular game's visuals and performance?
That would be 1800p then upscaled via checkerboard to 4k.
SMH at Richard still calling checkerboard rendering upscaling & even worse he said "checkerboarding up"
I can see this difference from 8ft away, crop is one to one. Not anything like 4k resolution. EDIT make that 12ft, as far as I can go without moving my furniture.
Doesn't bode well if this is true 2160p checkerboarding and not 1800p checkboarding.
Anyway, I feel the PC 4k native comparisons are a bit silly. Best to compare how much better than the OG PS4 or if there's going to be a PC comparison lets see how checkerboarding fares to standard upscale of native 1440p 1800p and then 2160p native for some context on what checkerboard delivers.
1800p checkerboard is 1600x1800, using checkerboard to hit 3200x1800, and then upscaled.
1800p checkerboard is 1600x1800, using checkerboard to hit 3200x1800, and then upscaled.
I actually think this is one example where the unlocked frame-rate is awesome. It holds pretty steady and looks great.
That makes no sense. It's being upscaled 2x in that scenario.
Checkerboard rendering isn't upscaling. It's a resolution reconstruction technique. The very video this thread is about mentions that it's using checkerboard rendering and then upscaling yet still praises the results.
Pretty much, yeah. A different technique than what is usually done but still just upscaling.That's a two pass upscale with a fancy name.