Digital Foundry - Do we actually need a PS5 Pro?

€1,300 is what the other guy mentioned, the same guy you were agreeing with.

Same as I said to him, how many people do you think bought PS5s for $1,000+? The mast vajority of people bought them from Sony directly, or from retailers.

Your 'argument' is a total nonsense, and mentioning electronics in other segments doesn't help.

You have no argument other than "I don't think there is a market for it"

I gave you evidence across multiple different devices that the market is to a degree what you make it.

When the first iphone launched it was 500 dolllars, which adjusted for inflation is 700 dollars.

11 years later people were paying 1000, which adjusted for inflation is 1151 dollars.

That you don't think there is a higher price point is total non sense
 
Paywalled videos are so lame. God I hate Patreon and how people use it. It should be treated like an optional tip jar, not as a way to put content behind a paywall.
 

DavidGzz

Gold Member
Not all UE5 games will need the fidelity of the Matrix demo.

Besides, Fortnite is already on UE5 and has an 120 FPS mode on the new consoles. STALKER 2 is also UE5 and the devs have said it will be 60 FPS on consoles.

UE5 does not necessarily mean 30 FPS.

Guys, I'm saying that if they need to resort to having only one mode(30fps) for more than a couple UE5 games then I'd like a stronger console that can run those games at 60fps.
 

GametimeUK

Member
The PS5 is no slouch. I think it's got great specs for the price and the PS4 "needed" the Pro more in comparison due to 4K TV sets becoming more popular.

That being said I don't see anything wrong with releasing a more beefy PS5 aimed at enthusiasts. Unlocked framerates, higher resolutions, better graphic settings etc.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
PS5 to date is impossible to find on a moment's notice. That tells us the demand is significantly higher than 500 dollars since supply can't keep up.

At what price point do we find current ps5s on shelves? 600? 700? 800?

There is obviously some price elasticity here.

I'm thinking only impossible to due to the supply itself. I really don't believe the customer demand is anywhere close to 2021 levels today. Hell for the last few weeks you can freely pick-up a PS5 H:FW bundle in NI from at least one big retailer.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
You have no argument other than "I don't think there is a market for it"

I gave you evidence across multiple different devices that the market is to a degree what you make it.

When the first iphone launched it was 500 dolllars, which adjusted for inflation is 700 dollars.

11 years later people were paying 1000, which adjusted for inflation is 1151 dollars.

That you don't think there is a higher price point is total non sense
You're talking about smartphones which I've already covered - every day tech which covers a number of day-to-day tasks that people use all day long, and isn't a luxury item like a games console. Referring to iPhones when there is no relevance here 🤦

People interested in state-of-the-art hardware for over $1,000 buy gaming PCs.

In the entire history of gaming people have raised the 3DO and Neo Geo as premium priced consoles - both of which were DOA. Your points are totally absurd.
 

adamsapple

Banned
Guys, I'm saying that if they need to resort to having only one mode(30fps) for more than a couple UE5 games then I'd like a stronger console that can run those games at 60fps.

Well, here's the thing.

Games like Horizon have a 30 FPS fidelity mode now.

When there's Pro consoles, developers will want to push a 30 FPS fidelity mode for *that* hardware as well.

That part is inevitable. Developers are always likely to have 30 FPS fidelity modes to push the hardware as much as they can.
 
I'm thinking only impossible to due to the supply itself. I really don't believe the customer demand is anywhere close to 2021 levels today. Hell for the last few weeks you can freely pick-up a PS5 H:FW bundle in NI from at least one big retailer.

It doesn't need to be 2021 levels to suggest that people wouldn't pay a few hundred more dollars for the current existing device just to be able to actually get it.
You're talking about smartphones which I've already covered - every day tech which covers a number of day-to-day tasks that people use all day long, and isn't a luxury item like a games console. Referring to iPhones when there is no relevance here 🤦

People interested in state-of-the-art hardware for over $1,000 buy gaming PCs.

In the entire history of gaming people have raised the 3DO and Neo Geo as premium priced consoles - both of which were DOA. Your points are totally absurd.

The point is people and things change. People initially scoffed at the idea of 1000 dollar phones too, even with the parameters you gave.

People interested in state-of-the-art hardware buying gaming PCs now because that is their only option

Yes, let's compare 3D0 and Neo Geo. Panasonic and Neo Geo....
 
It’s not about need… the pro consoles are just a straight cash grab by both companies and because some will buy them it does make business sense to do it.

But the base consoles haven’t been available in stores and not enough next gen only games have been created to justify jumping to another console.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
I'm not sure I follow some of the discussion. It's clear there is a market for premium electronics. The elite controller and those expensive headphones (not the MS wireless set, but the ones they put the premium badge on) are forms of that. Seems like as long as the device is profitable at realistic manufacturing levels everything would be fine.

I definitely think there would be buyers for a 1k console, maybe even higher. Look at the prices of some of the lower-end prebuilts just 6 months ago. Would it be catastrophic if that was the entry-level pricing? Sure, but that's not what is being discussed.

If sales of the X/Pro were viewed as good enough, we'll probably get a refresh at some point. Might depend on gamer opinions about returning to 30fps (and below) as well.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
Can slim models still even exist now. Graphics cards are getting larger
You would use newer processes that the alleged Pro models would be on, but instead of allocating wafers for large dies, you use it for many small dies like XSS compared to XSX. It would allow for smaller systems with less-beefy cooling solutions. This gives you more usable chips, more units, and more customers brought into the ecosystem to play GAAS games than Pro systems. This isn't 2016 where Sony can get a Pro system at the same price and availability as a 2013 launch system.
 
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REDRZA MWS

Member
Does a bear shit in the woods. Keep bringing the POWA!!!!

 

Hezekiah

Banned
It doesn't need to be 2021 levels to suggest that people wouldn't pay a few hundred more dollars for the current existing device just to be able to actually get it.


The point is people and things change. People initially scoffed at the idea of 1000 dollar phones too, even with the parameters you gave.

People interested in state-of-the-art hardware buying gaming PCs now because that is their only option

Yes, let's compare 3D0 and Neo Geo. Panasonic and Neo Geo....
Yeah that's kinda the point, they're the only ones who have done anything so pointless.

And things do change except Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft's willingness to release a $1,000+ console 😁
 

DavidGzz

Gold Member
Well, here's the thing.

Games like Horizon have a 30 FPS fidelity mode now.

When there's Pro consoles, developers will want to push a 30 FPS fidelity mode for *that* hardware as well.

That part is inevitable. Developers are always likely to have 30 FPS fidelity modes to push the hardware as much as they can.

And I'm talking about games that are too advanced to have a 40-60 fps mode like that Matrix demo. I know how it works right now. If that doesn't happen and there is always a lower resolution option at 60fps I'll be happy. If not, I want the pro models.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
Well, here's the thing.

Games like Horizon have a 30 FPS fidelity mode now.

When there's Pro consoles, developers will want to push a 30 FPS fidelity mode for *that* hardware as well.

That part is inevitable. Developers are always likely to have 30 FPS fidelity modes to push the hardware as much as they can.
And to show off their games at events, trailer, adverts, and generally for marketing purposes.
 

Catphish

Gold Member
If mid-gen refreshes are going to happen every generation now, then it seems to me that people should skip the initial release, and only buy the mid-gens. By the time they drop there’ll be plenty of supply, plenty of games, and no FOMO.

Honestly, I don’t know how you can justify not doing that, unless you have money to burn.
 

Gunstar75

Neo Member
Absolutely not
Why not let the consumers decide, if they go the same route they did with PS4 & PS4 Pro it will work fine. Let's face it most games are not not using native 4K on PS5, hell Demon Souls Remaster was rendering at 1440p for a that was original designed for PS3. On top that, the hit to performance when Ray tracing is evolved is a joke. At least with a PS5 Pro we could see 1800p @ 60 fps with full blown ray tracing without so many cuts LODs and resolution.
 

Gunstar75

Neo Member
If mid-gen refreshes are going to happen every generation now, then it seems to me that people should skip the initial release, and only buy the mid-gens. By the time they drop there’ll be plenty of supply, plenty of games, and no FOMO.

Honestly, I don’t know how you can justify not doing that, unless you have money to burn.
You do realize there are ton of people are still buying used PS4 consoles, let alone used PS5's. So why can I buy the base PS5 at launch and trade it in when the PS5 Pro is available?
 
You have no argument other than "I don't think there is a market for it"

I gave you evidence across multiple different devices that the market is to a degree what you make it.

When the first iphone launched it was 500 dolllars, which adjusted for inflation is 700 dollars.

11 years later people were paying 1000, which adjusted for inflation is 1151 dollars.

That you don't think there is a higher price point is total non sense
An iPhone is not a luxury item goddamn lol.
Why are people comparing mobile devices to video game consoles is beyond me. One is a necessity for day to day tasks, the other is not.
Do I need my PlayStation to join my work team meetings on Teams😂

Yeah that's kinda the point, they're the only ones who have done anything so pointless.

And things do change except Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft's willingness to release a $1,000+ console 😁
Imagine pricing a non-essential item like a video game console north of $1300 just because people are willing to fork out that kinds of money for a mobile phone
What is the business case here? 'Because iPhone's are $1000+'
😂😂😂
 
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Yeah that's kinda the point, they're the only ones who have done anything so pointless.

And things do change except Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft's willingness to release a $1,000+ console 😁
Imagine pricing a non-essential item like a video game console north of $1300 just because people are willing to fork out that kinds of money for a mobile phone
What is the business case here? 'Because iPhone's are $1000+'
😂😂😂
 
DF about mid gen PS5 refresh:
"Do we actually need a more powerful PS5?"

DF about new NVidia graphic cards:
"This is why we need more powerful GPUs!"
Proceeds to show raytraced Minecraft and Doom.
 
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Yeah that's kinda the point, they're the only ones who have done anything so pointless.

And things do change except Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft's willingness to release a $1,000+ console 😁

An iPhone is not a luxury item goddamn lol.
Why are people comparing mobile devices to video game consoles is beyond me. One is a necessity for day to day tasks, the other is not.
Do I need my PlayStation to join my work team meetings on Teams😂


Imagine pricing a non-essential item like a video game console north of $1300 just because people are willing to fork out that kinds of money for a mobile phone
What is the business case here? 'Because iPhone's are $1000+'
😂😂😂

Look at these people suggesting that a 1000 dollar version of a phone is "essential" when a cheaper version of the phone meets the essential needs, but similarly can't understand the potential demand for a more expensive console.

Hilarious.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
Look at these people suggesting that a 1000 dollar version of a phone is "essential" when a cheaper version of the phone meets the essential needs, but similarly can't understand the potential demand for a more expensive console.

Hilarious.
Your lack of self-awareness is astounding 😁

And nobody has said a '$1,000 phone is essential', just that your comparison between mobile phones and games consoles is retarded.
 

kyliethicc

Member
Can slim models still even exist now
Yeah. The PS5 SoC could be moved onto TSMC’s 5nm process. Would use less power, generate less heat.

Would add some cost, so the price would probably remain the same, but they could make the system smaller.

How much smaller? Who knows.
 

Type_Raver

Member
GT7 on PC?
Hope that we'd be able to transfer saves between platforms (PS4/5 <> PC)

Context is more Playstation titles coming over the PC (starting from 13min mark).
 

Shmunter

Member
In theory for those that did not own a PS5, PS5 Pro benefits them, for those that already own one they would hate it.
Not me, I gladly buy the best console on the market available. PS5 now, pro when it hits.

However, I just don’t think it’s happening. PS5 right now feels like a ps4 pro+ with the current software. Not till last gen shackles are broken will we know proper next gen. Feels like we haven’t even started despite having the system for 2 years already.

Truly hoping the touted Last Of Us remake is a balls to the wall next gen show piece, as remote as that is.

Bit the bullet on Bf2042 being sold for the price of a large coffee in the hopes they pull a Rainbow6 on it at some point. The ps5 version looks inferior to BF5 on the ps4, lol.
 
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Not me, I gladly buy the best console on the market available. PS5 now, pro when it hits.

However, I just don’t think it’s happening. PS5 right now feels like a ps4 pro+ with the current software. Not till last gen shackles are broken will we know proper next gen. Feels like we haven’t even started despite having the system for 2 years already.

Truly hoping the touted Last Of Us remake is a balls to the wall next gen show piece, as remote as that is.

Bit the bullet on Bf2042 being sold for the price of a large coffee in the hopes they pull a Rainbow6 on it at some point. The ps5 version looks inferior to BF5 on the ps4, lol.
We are on the same boat, I've own a PS5, and I will gladly buy a PS5 Pro if it came out, what I'm saying is only a theory
 
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Personally no. PS4 when it came out it was considered kind of in line but would be surpassed very quickly by newer tech so introducing 4K resolution was great as. a lot of people had 4K TVs by then (2017). If all the PS5 Pro does is allow 8K and 60fps no matter the game....first of all, who even has an 8K TV? I mean sure a tiny majority but 8K are far from a mainstream thing. So basically would I buy again a $400+ console and go selling my old one just so I get in the other 50% of available games a 60fps mode? No way, thats like the smallest reason tu upgrade. And lets be honest, really, you could tell a difference between 8K and 4k? If there ever was an 8K game then you can bet it wont be 60fps so we jsut went back in a circle.
 
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Kokoloko85

Member
Is anthing really needed? Does Nvidia need to make another £700 graphic card when they released one 2 years before it….

If they make a PS5 Pro, you dont have to buy it. Its not gonna make games any worse, only better. Simple, dont like, stfu and dont buy it.

Like the PS4 Pro, it won’t be for everyone. But Ill be buying the PS5 Pro Day 0
 

tvdaXD

Member
Oh right so developing for one extra console is "wasted resources" but developing for an enormous amount PC hardware configurations is not. That makes sense.

You seem to think that a PC version just "Exists" with no resources at all being used to make sure it works on all these hardware configurations which shows that you have no clue how game development works.
They don't develop for all PC hardware, not even close. I'm not a videogame developer but I do have a clue. All these extra consoles are still unnecessary, again, wasted resources. Just look at how Cyberpunk was held back on the old hardware. They should've just skipped those entirely.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
They don't develop for all PC hardware, not even close. I'm not a videogame developer but I do have a clue. All these extra consoles are still unnecessary, again, wasted resources. Just look at how Cyberpunk was held back on the old hardware. They should've just skipped those entirely.
No you don't have a clue and this becomes more and more apparent with every post you make. Developing for PC requires that you optimize your software so it can run on a wide variaty of hardware configurations and guess what: This includes making sure that all the most used GPU's and CPU's are supported.

Trying to argue that developing for one extra console (which, by the way, would use the exact same development tools) would be just as much work as developing for PC and that you're "Glad to play on PC instead" is wrong and it doesn't make any sense either. You have completely failed to explain how developing for one extra hardware configuration is a "waste of resources" but developing for many different kinds of configurations is not.

Using cyberpunk as an example doesn't work. Cyberpunk was released on platforms that didn't have the necessary hardware to run it. But you're not arguing against weaker consoles, you're arguing against better specced consoles.
 
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tvdaXD

Member
No you don't have a clue and this becomes more and more apparent with every post you make. Developing for PC requires that you optimize your software so it can run on a wide variaty of hardware configurations and guess what: This includes making sure that all the most used GPU's and CPU's are supported.

Trying to argue that developing for one extra console (which, by the way, would use the exact same development tools) would be just as much work as developing for PC and that you're "Glad to play on PC instead" is wrong and it doesn't make any sense either. You have completely failed to explain how developing for one extra hardware configuration is a "waste of resources" but developing for many different kinds of configurations is not.

Using cyberpunk as an example doesn't work. Cyberpunk was released on platforms that didn't have the necessary hardware to run it. But you're not arguing against weaker consoles, you're arguing against better specced consoles.
This has been fun, anyways, back to the original question, NO. We don't need a Pro.
Now let's keep it simple so you don't keep missing the original point. Say what you want about PC, but it's been there since the beginning, and it's the norm and all part of the development. Besides it's not like every GPU, CPU or OS is a completely new thing that's totally alien and completely different from its predecessors and/or brothers. These additional variants of the consoles however, are just stupid and again, wasted resources. The only thing adding additional development time are these extra consoles, which should be spent elsewhere, it's as simple as that. (And we're not even talking about the chip shortage that's going on with the current demand.)
 

Hezekiah

Banned
Not me, I gladly buy the best console on the market available. PS5 now, pro when it hits.

However, I just don’t think it’s happening. PS5 right now feels like a ps4 pro+ with the current software. Not till last gen shackles are broken will we know proper next gen. Feels like we haven’t even started despite having the system for 2 years already.

Truly hoping the touted Last Of Us remake is a balls to the wall next gen show piece, as remote as that is.

Bit the bullet on Bf2042 being sold for the price of a large coffee in the hopes they pull a Rainbow6 on it at some point. The ps5 version looks inferior to BF5 on the ps4, lol.
How much? Was still £30 last time I checked on Amazon.
 

yamaci17

Member
almost all CPUs share similar instructions nowadays. they don't differ alot from each other. even the, some old CPUs become obsolete because devs do not care about their specific strong suits.

all GPUs are compliant to similar directx guidelines. some games in 2021-2022 could not be run on Kepler and older GPU architectures. Some games simply run horrible on older GCN cards (gcn 1/2). Nope, its a no mans land out here in PC. do not act as if minimum requirements mean anything.

if it runs at 720p, lowest setting, lowest textures 30+ fps with minimums to 20 fps, they will denote it as the minimum. does not mean that no one would play like that. even suggesting people to play with ps4 settings @30 fps at native 1080p, some PC folk take that as a insult and they would rather upgrade their hardware to something new

no dev ever specifically tests pc builds out there. they just design their games for a console and then port it to PC. how it runs on similar PC hardware depends on how many featureset it supports and how well it can use low level APIs such as dx12/vulkan. its completely up to the GPU's ability to run those said games well or not. A rtx 2060 can easily outpace a 1080ti when async/dx12/vulkan stuff is involved. Not a single dev goes out and makes use of 1080ti's exquisite compute power over a rtx 2060.

and there's simply no performance specs for any build out there. they can't even say that you will get 1080p 60 fps with a gtx 1080. they simply can't. they never will. its all up to you. they blurt out some weird graphical settings that usually goes way overboard in nerfing the graphics, like how it happens with rdr2's textures.

you can get 1080p 40 fps on a random gtx 1070. which dev cares? they can recommend a gtx 1060 but it can end up running the game @1080p 40 fps with medium settings. what kind of a recommendation that is, then? its just a recommendation of being able play the game at upwards of 30 frames witout jarring interruptions. that's it

2 gb cards were abandoned by most of the devs, they don't make special textures for 2 gb cards. they won't make special textures for 4 gb cards in the future. they will all go obsolete with hideous looking textures in the future. they can still run the game, does not mean they will un said games optimally.

once a game requires dx12.2, anything before Turing will go obsolete. it can happen in quick fashion. Anything before Pascal became obsolete very quickly. only thing that stops a similar thing from happening is the hardware drought. if ampere had ample stocks, you would see pascal/gcn utilization deteriorate in steam hardware surveys.
 
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rolandss

Member
Yeah eventually. But we haven’t even seen what the PS5 can do properly yet. 90% of the releases are cross gen games. You also can’t even buy one so making them available is a start.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
This has been fun, anyways, back to the original question, NO. We don't need a Pro.
Now let's keep it simple so you don't keep missing the original point. Say what you want about PC, but it's been there since the beginning, and it's the norm and all part of the development.
What does this have to do with aything? "It's the norm and all part of the development" like what does any of this mean? Are you just tossing out random arguments against the wall, hoping that it will at one point lead to a logical argument? Because it's not working.
Besides it's not like every GPU, CPU or OS is a completely new thing that's totally alien and completely different from its predecessors and/or brothers.
And neither is a pro variant of a console.
These additional variants of the consoles however, are just stupid and again, wasted resources. The only thing adding additional development time are these extra consoles, which should be spent elsewhere, it's as simple as that. (And we're not even talking about the chip shortage that's going on with the current demand.)
How the heck is developing higher maximum settings for a high end PC hardware fine but developing the exact same settings for a higher end console a "waste of resources"? That makes no sense at all. Do you think that every PS5 and Xbox Series S/X version of cross gen games is a "waste of resources" as well?
 
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