Support NeoGAF

[Skyzard]

It is a locked 60fps in the 540p mode, though. The story mode is 720p but runs slower.

Fair enough, my mistake there. But it still feels like a bomberman game could be a lot better on the Switch.

People have blamed Unity and others posted examples of Unity games on other systems doing much more impressive things - could it be Unity specifically on Switch is just a bad pairing? I feel like Unity is pretty cpu dependent, maybe that's why other consoles can push through it.

Otherwise poor optimization from the devs...?

 

[DECK'ARD]

This game is apparently doing pretty well, plus major updates like this patch mean that maybe Konami will see the potential for a bomberman revival generally.

Yes maybe this is a low budget offering but it is still fun to play and could lay the groundwork for future iterations

Yep, I'm quite hopeful for the series.

(a sentence I never thought I'd be typing)

 

[blu]

You couldn't easily do true baked shadows, because the shadows change as blocks are destroyed. In fact, I would bet that's their biggest problem - each of those blocks on the screen are basically rendered in two passes, once normally, and once for the shadows cast on them. And because of that Unity won't automatically batch them all together into a single GPU command (known as a "draw call"), so every frame the CPU has to send hundreds of rendering commands to the GPU. There are still some ways to optimize that, and I kinda wish I worked at HexaDrive so I could help them optimize the game Nobody's first Unity project is going to be very well optimized, unless they have the budget to hire some Unity experts.

Without having the game, just from looking at the DF footage, it even appears they have two shadow-casting light sources - one for the terrain/obstacles (at a lower res), and one for the dynamic actors on top (at a higher res) - on some of the maps those sources point in the opposite directions ; ) That's a rather interesting design/performance decision.

 

[Arkam]

I kinda want to applaud Konami for this move. I cant wait to check it out tonight when I get out of the office. I like my IQ as much as the next person, but I like smooth gameplay much more. Really glad to see them improving the game instead of just walking away.

 

[jariw]

Fair enough, my mistake there. But it still feels like a bomberman game could be a lot better on the Switch.

People have blamed Unity and others posted examples of Unity games on other systems doing much more impressive things - could it be Unity specifically on Switch is just a bad pairing? I feel like Unity is pretty cpu dependent, maybe that's why other consoles can push through it.

Otherwise poor optimization from the devs...?

FWIW, Yooka-Laylee on the PS4 (on Unity) was apparently no technical wonder compared to other PS4 titles. Unity is middleware, and shouldn't be compared with native SDK projects.

Of course the performance would be better if it would have been developed using the SDK without middleware, but the result would probably mean not be a Switch release title.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Without having the game, just from looking at the DF footage, it even appears they have two shadow-casting light sources - one for the terrain/obstacles (at a lower res), and one for the dynamic actors on top (at a higher res) - on some of the maps those sources point in the opposite directions ; ) That's a rather interesting design/performance decision.

The story mode footage has blocks+actors for one source and just blocks for the other. Oddly the first one doesn't get applied to the floor.

 

[Mega]

Definitely the better choice, though honestly I'd be fine with vastly more simplistic visuals if it meant 1080+60fps, not to mention native res on the handheld.

In any case, battle mode (the only thing I really care about in Bomberman) being 60 means this is an eventual purchase

I fully agree here. I think they should have gone with a simpler cel-shaded style all throughout that more closely resembles the game's art and color palette.

Would you play Bomberman '94 today, or would the resolution shred your eyes?

Framerate and gameplay is key, they course-corrected and it is to be applauded.

I understand the point you're making (the res changes are barely noticeable here and the increased FPS 100% justifies sacrificing visuals)... but that's not really the same thing. '94 is a 240p and would ideally scale very cleanly to 720p or 960p.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Why are dev still using the Unity engine?

 

[Neiteio]

It's not like it's a toggle.

Nioh on PS4 Pro has toggles for framerate vs. resolution.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Why would anyone at this point use Unity over U4 ?

At this point, are they not both free anyway? Mobile support, scalability, they both have it. Only thing i could think of is that Unity was free before U4, but that's in the past.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I understand the point you're making (the res changes are barely noticeable here and the increased FPS 100% justifies sacrificing visuals)... but that's not really the same thing. '94 is a 240p and would ideally scale very cleanly to 720p or 960p.

I'd wager many more people would not even go near a game like '94 now than be put off by the resolution drop here.

Not everyone goes "Oh, that pixel art. That's wonderful!", they just see old.

This is about marrying the 2 problems, and while not ideal we're getting there.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Why would anyone at this point use Unity over U4 ?

At this point, are they not both free anyway? Mobile support, scalability, they both have it. Only thing i could think of is that Unity was free before U4, but that's in the past.

They aren't free. Unreal costs a percentage of your profits, Unity costs a low monthly fee per user if your company has made over $100,000 in the last year). But Unreal isn't better than Unity, just as CryEngine isn't better than Unreal. They are just different, and require different skills.

 

[pretty done]

FPS is king.

Makes you wonder why they bumped the res to get lower FPS in campaign then. 720p60 would be better for both modes no?

 

[SapientWolf]

I fully agree here. I think they should have gone with a simpler cel-shaded style all throughout that more closely resembles the game's art and color palette.

I understand the point you're making (the res changes are barely noticeable here and the increased FPS 100% justifies sacrificing visuals)... but that's not really the same thing. '94 is a 240p and would ideally scale very cleanly to 720p or 960p.

Bomberman Generation aged really well. I was kind of shocked at how good that game looks upscaled.

 

[shiyrley]

Makes you wonder why they bumped the res to get lower FPS in campaign then. 720p60 would be better for both modes no?

what are you even talking about

campaign was always 1080p/720p, they just unlocked the framerate, it was fixed 30 before

 

[ghibli99]

Makes you wonder why they bumped the res to get lower FPS in campaign then. 720p60 would be better for both modes no?

That would have been my preference, yes.

 

[pretty done]

what are you even talking about

campaign was always 1080p/720p, they just unlocked the framerate, it was fixed 30 before

I'm talking about how one mode is 60fps and the other one isn't. FPS is king so shouldn't both modes be 60? Especially for a game like this where gameplay is #1 and the graphics look pretty bad regardless.

 

[sleepnaught]

540p, yikes. How's that look in portable mode? I want to pick this up once it drips in price, but not if it's a blurry mess.

 

[Kresnik258]

The video was kinda amusing. They brought in Hexadrive to fix it, the same people that saved Zone of the Enders HD!

How did they fix it? Dropped resolution.

Lol. I'm sure they could've figured that out themselves.

Anyway, 540p. Vita port coming clearly

 

[Ridley327]

The video was kinda amusing. They brought in Hexadrive to fix it, the same people that saved Zone of the Enders HD!

How did they fix it? Dropped resolution.

Lol. I'm sure they could've figured that out themselves.

Anyway, 540p. Vita port coming clearly

They didn't bring Hexadrive in, since they were the original developers of the game in the first place.

 

[shiyrley]

I'm talking about how one mode is 60fps and the other one isn't. FPS is king so shouldn't both modes be 60? Especially for a game like this where gameplay is #1 and the graphics look pretty bad regardless.

But you said they "bumped" the resolution in the campaign, they didn't, they left it the same

 

[Mega]

GAF never ceases to amaze me. The topic is about a DF video that is overwhelmingly positive about the changes made to Super Bomberman R and ends with a recommendation that now is the time to jump in. And immediately people start crapping all over the game.

I have this game and it is so much better after the update. I and many others didn't even notice the resolution. If you look at the threads when the patch came out:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1362541&
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1362855&

Almost no one was talking about a resolution downgrade at all. In fact many people were speculating that if there was a downgrade it was in textures or lighting. But now that the resolution is confirmed it is suddenly too awful to even look at. HexaDrive did the right thing here. But go on.

I know this is controversial, but DF should put out a few analysis articles saying nothing about a game update's resolution changes (where there were in fact res changes in the update), and then later revise the articles to make mention of it. Just to see what happens. Just to mess with Gaffers and put the BS in full display for everyone to see. Something really outlandish just to see how many people eat up the placebo before they reverse course and see the sudden negative reaction to what was there all along.

I was playing undocked story mode (720p, 45fps) and then undocked online (540p, 60fps). In no way was I aware of any resolution decrease until the DF article and that goes for the majority of us. I'm not denying there are some out there who would notice the drop between modes, but to exaggerate with armchair anaylsis that the game is now hideously unplayable is ridiculous.

What is noticeable by everyone is 30->60fps pre- and post-patch, and 45->60fps between story and battle modes.

Edit: I see someone else had the same idea. Just goes to show some of us are really sick of others playing the numbers games and shitting on a game when they would have otherwise never noticed a "downgrade."

This further cements my desire for Digital Foundry to do a little experiment, and report that a new game's resolution is far lower (720p vs 1080p for instance) than it actually is just to see how people react. And then a week later, report that it indeed is at 1080p and has been all along, and the fact that so many forum goes flipped out about it (which would no doubt happen) says something about how little some people can actually notice details about graphics.

Of course they would never do that because doing so could harm a game's sales for basically no reason, but it's at least a fun thought experiment.

 

[Kyzer]

I fully agree here. I think they should have gone with a simpler cel-shaded style all throughout that more closely resembles the game's art and color palette.

I understand the point you're making (the res changes are barely noticeable here and the increased FPS 100% justifies sacrificing visuals)... but that's not really the same thing. '94 is a 240p and would ideally scale very cleanly to 720p or 960p.

That would look good..

 

[JinjoUnchained]

It's the right move. Frame rate is more important than resolution for an arcade style action game. Looking forward to getting back into this after finishing Wonder Boy.

 

[big_erk]

resolution doesn't matter for bomberman
it ruled in 240p and it rules in 720p
(and this is a hell of a lot cheaper than saturn bomberman)

When the hell did this happen? I have a copy of Saturn Bomberman lying around somewhere. I need to find it and put it up. I only own a handful of Saturn games but Bomberman is one and Panzer Dragoon Saga is another. The Saturn really had some killer games for such a short lived system.

 

[Tain]

Unity has issues that are worth criticizing. So does Unreal, so do proprietary engines, but this should be obvious and doesn't need to be brought up every single time someone criticizes Unity. Similarly, there's no need to pretend that all of these tools are the same damn thing in all scenarios and that the only thing that could possibly ever matter is the knowledge and ability of the dev team using them. At the same time, a lot of Unity criticism is brash and hyperbolic and doesn't at all seem to consider the reality of game development ("why would anybody use this engine? seriously there's no point").

These takes are getting insanely old.

Don't take this as me being tired of the good posts in here speculating about, say, how the lighting might be bogging the scene down, though.

 

[-shadow-]

Why are dev still using the Unity engine?

It's a fine engine if the developers have enough time to work with it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I just played it this morning. Looks awesome on a PVM. Pixel art works great at low resolutions. 3D, though, looks best at higher resolutions.

I do not agree 100% on the latter, not always at least. Geometry aliasing can be weirdly effective at hiding lack of geometry detail in models. I have seen more than one HD remaster where the objects appear even blockier in HD va the original game actually .

 

[jariw]

540p, yikes. How's that look in portable mode? I want to pick this up once it drips in price, but not if it's a blurry mess.

The 3DS was 240p, VITA was 544p, so 540p would be a blurry mess in a game about cube blocks?

 

[Lee Chaolan]

OK with the route they went. No reason Bomberman VS shouldn't be 60FPS

 

[dark10x]

I do not agree 100% on the latter, not always at least. Geometry aliasing can be weirdly effective at hiding lack of geometry detail in models. I have seen more than one HD remaster where the objects appear even blockier in HD va the original game actually .

Actually, you're right.

I don't really think 3D looks great at 240p...but 480p/480i works well. A lot of games from that era can give the impression of having much more detailed visuals at those resolutions.

At 240p, though, things just get very chunky in 3D. It's not always bad, but I feel it's just a little too low.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Actually, you're right.

I don't really think 3D looks great at 240p...but 480p/480i works well. A lot of games from that era can give the impression of having much more detailed visuals at those resolutions.

At 240p, though, things just get very chunky in 3D. It's not always bad, but I feel it's just a little too low.

Yeah, 240p is too low for 3D with decent detail in it.

 

[CrashPrime]

FPS over native resolution all day every day.

I can not thank hexadrive enough for being brave enough to drop from 1080p to 720p to get 60fps multiplayer working.

Tweaks to get it running 60fps in all modes would've been nice but lets be honest, this is an online/party game after you play the campaign enough times.

-THIS- is the Bomberman we deserved.

 

[NimbusD]

Why is Unity used if it's not that good tbw? I've seen a good number of games using Unity that have issues. I'm guessing it's the cheapest/free?

Because devs know it. It costs money to hire or train devs in something else.

Also unity now has switch support which it didn't before... Could be that they assumed it would be coming sooner idk.

 

[th3sicknness]

FPS over native resolution all day every day.

I can not thank hexadrive enough for being brave enough to drop from 1080p to 720p to get 60fps multiplayer working.

Tweaks to get it running 60fps in all modes would've been nice but lets be honest, this is an online/party game after you play the campaign enough times.

-THIS- is the Bomberman we deserved.

Doesnt mean they will stop optimizing, maybe the patch it back to native and have it running at 60fps in the future?

 

[Mega]

It's bad since we play close to the screen.

This is bomberman. And on next-gen hardware...with less than vita resolution on the switch's larger screen, and still not a locked 60fps.

There's no two ways about it. They tipped the scales and shifted towards performance instead of visuals, but the whole thing should be running much better. It's not a high quality version of bomberman, and they're charging like it is.

Have either of you played it? Are you ignoring all the people who had no clue multiplayer was 540p until DF pointed it out? Are you just seeing a number with no context and reacting without actually having seen whether it genuinely looks bad or not?

 

[Harlock]

Just imagine if Bomberman was code to the metal.

 

[shiyrley]

Are you just seeing a number with no context and reacting without actually having seen whether it genuinely looks bad or not?

Yes, he is

 

[timberger]

The game doesn't even look that demanding technically, so it's weird the hardware would struggle so much running it. Seems safe to assume Konami must not have put the effort/budget needed into it.

 

[Waluigilicious]

What's funny is that I noticed the downgrade in handheld mode *straight away* but I don't even give a crap so didn't say a word. I welcome this update whole heartedly!

 

[DECK'ARD]

Just imagine if Bomberman was code to the metal.

That's the PC-Engine games really. While not the most demanding game, you could just tell they knew the hardware really well.

Which let them concentrate on ideas and polishing it all up.

 

[Vital Tundra]

I like it, but I hope they try and further re improve the resolution.

 

[Skyzard]

Have either of you played it? Are you ignoring all the people who had no clue multiplayer was 540p until DF pointed it out? Are you just seeing a number with no context and reacting without actually having seen whether it genuinely looks bad or not?

Why are you ignoring all the people who said there is a vaseline filter on the game?

If you're not the type to notice a drop from 1080p to 720 or 540p, why come to a digitalfoundry thread just to complain at others who can?

 

[jariw]

Why are you ignoring all the people who said there is a vaseline filter on the game?

If you're not the type to notice a drop from 1080p to 720 or 540p, why come to a digitalfoundry thread just to complain at others who can?

There hasn't been a drop from 1080p to 540p. The drop to 540p was in portable mode.

 

[btrboyev]

Is this game really that demanding graphically that it can't hit 60?? Havnt played this but this is no zelda ...

Not trying to start war here just wondering what is making this game so demanding.

Unity is a really unoptimized engine

 

[Kresnik258]

They didn't bring Hexadrive in, since they were the original developers of the game in the first place.

Well then!

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I like it, but I hope they try and further re improve the resolution.

.

 

[dracula_x]

Why are dev still using the Unity engine?

very cheap, works on almost everything, good dev community.

So if you don't have a lot of time and money – Unity is a good choice.

 

[MrBS]

Welp I didn't even notice the resolution drop as I was too distracted with the framerate. That's the excuse I'm going with. I'm happy with the trade off!

 

[Mega]

Why are you ignoring all the people who said there is a vaseline filter on the game?

If you're not the type to notice a drop from 1080p to 720 or 540p, why come to a digitalfoundry thread just to complain at others who can?

I own the game. There is no "vaseline filter," only some blurring from upscaling and perhaps some AA. Who are all these people? There was one person in the new patch thread complaining about a "vaseline filter" and many more who were unable to definitively quantify if/how the game was visually downgraded.

I'm aware of the purpose of DF threads, the sprit of these discussions, and I take their findings for what they are. They said the trade-off was worth it and a big improvement over what the game was before the patch. It was an unequivocal thumbs up. Then we get folks like you, who only see numbers divorced from visuals and reality, and overreact that the game is a horrific piece of shit, the work of lazy devs, garbage unworthy of $xx, etc.

And the drop was from 720p to 540p in multiplayer which isn't the severe drop you're making it out to be. It is of course worse upon inspection, plenty of people noticed something was reduced, but the unplayable mess narrative doesn't hold up. Those are the people I take issue with: the ones who invent their own wildly negative conclusions not backed by the article we're supposedly discussing (why are you ignoring their positive conclusions based on their findings?)... I have no problem with anyone who merely notices a res change. I myself can usually tell when a 240p game is not scaling well, 480p vs HD resolutions, etc.

It looks fine... not great, but fine and perfectly serviceable for what it is. When I said earlier DF needs to run fake tech analysis as experiment to gauge placebo, it's for people like you who only see numbers in a vacuum as a reason to complain and pass off damning judgment divorced from the reality of actually seeing and playing the game. Actually, we already had a taste of this in the BOTW FPS patch thread where a number of people were imaging visual and resolution downgrades that never happened ( I myself fell for this a little).