Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio

Maximus P

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One of the reasons I post so little on this forum is becuase of the amount of 'joke posting' or sarcastic posts without the '/s'. Sometimes I see members that have an opinion that puzzles me and I want to ask them how they've come to their conclusion, but I'm affraid that I'll be mocked for falling for 'the bait'.

I don't think it helps, especially in threads like this. It deviates from the discussion massively and does nothing but stoke the flames of arguments amongst posters that want to have a informative discussion.
 

Locuza

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Jan 21, 2013
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Is this good or not ?
In practise it might not matter much but in theory it's suboptimal.
The L2$ slices are tied to the memory controllers so for even load distrubution you arrange L2$ slices with the same capacity across the memory controllers.
With 6 memory controllers you would expect 512KB L2$ per mc, 3MB (or 256KB for 1,5MB) in total and not 2 .


Another thing which makes this interesting is Vega.
Currently the ROPs are the clients of the memory controllers but on GCN they have an extra interconnect which makes it possible to scale them independently of the number of memory controllers.
Vega will change this, with Vega the ROPs will be the clients of the L2$ and for equal load balancing the ROPs will be partionated accordingly and the L2$ in the same way to the MC.
https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/RenderL2.jpg

Scorpio must have 6 L2$ slices which would mean 48 ROPs (4 per slice) if the ROPs where tied to the L2$ but it has 32 ROPs which means that Scorpio probably uses the current GCN backend design up to Polaris and not Vega.

Although MS could make something like this:
4 ROPs for 4 256KB L2$ slices to 4 memory controllers
8 ROPs for 2 512KB L2$ slices to 2 memory controllers

You would get 32 ROPs, 2MB L2$ and a 384-Bit wide bus.
But I wouldn't bet on this scenario.
 

Head.spawn

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That would be so so incredibly foolish. Halo 6 with 4k checkerboard, 4k textures(this is important), 60fps would look photoreal compared to if they just do native 4k/60fps, it would essentially look a little better than halo 5. They need to experiment with checkerboard rendering if they want their games to look better than anything out.
It would definitely be wise for games targeting 60fps to do so at checkerboard 2160p. Going native is a hell of a performance target to hit and does not leave much fuel in tank for fancy shit once it gets there on a console.
 
Jan 12, 2008
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More powerful, but I don't believe it's a 30+% power advantage.

The performance delta between the two platforms is not as great as the raw numbers lead the average consumer to believe. There are things about the PS4 Pro system architecture not fully understood, and there are things about Scorpio as well, that bring the two systems into balance.

There is no way Sony will be giving up a 30%+ advantage to Microsoft. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference – it would be obvious.

I’m not saying Microsoft haven’t built a good system – I’m merely saying that anyone who wants to die on their sword over this 30%+ power advantage are going to be fighting an uphill battle over the next 10 years…
I see what you did there.
 

platina

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It would definitely be wise for games targeting 60fps to do so at checkerboard 2160p. Going native is a hell of a performance target to hit and does not leave much fuel in tank for fancy shit once it gets there on a console.
Exactly I hope Microsoft understands this. Yes the native 4k hype is real but you can do much more with the visuals in 4k checkerboard as long as you have those 4k textures implemented.
 

Complicated

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To play devil's advocate, selling at $399 vs their $249 SKU would still make this a product for a "niche" audience.
That's not really how it works though. The $249 models are the result of years of manufacturing iteration and cost cutting, and can be sold for that price because of it. Brand new console hardware has a pretty standard price and for them to hit that on a niche product would be surprising to say the least.
 
Jun 10, 2004
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More powerful, but I don't believe it's a 30+% power advantage.

The performance delta between the two platforms is not as great as the raw numbers lead the average consumer to believe. There are things about the PS4 Pro system architecture not fully understood, and there are things about Scorpio as well, that bring the two systems into balance.

There is no way Sony will be giving up a 30%+ advantage to Microsoft. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference – it would be obvious.

I’m not saying Microsoft haven’t built a good system – I’m merely saying that anyone who wants to die on their sword over this 30%+ power advantage are going to be fighting an uphill battle over the next 10 years…

it's basically Xbox vs Ps2 all over again as Graphical gap , if not more ( last time CPU on ps2 was still very good for the developers with some skills and willingness to optimize the code )

GPU is significantly faster
CPU is faster
Memory speed is faster
Memory available is higher

Multiplatform title with decent budget and made by decent developers will be noticeably better on Scorpio on both 4k and 1080p TV set



the only way that Sony has to close the gap, is to develop exclusive title for Ps4 Pro only .
with the incredible developers at their disposal, a PRO based game will be very close if not better than a not optimized one

Microsoft seems all in on "platform scalability " and we won't see anytime soon exclusive games based on Scorpio hardware
 

Roitorb

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That's not really how it works though. The $249 models are the result of years of manufacturing iteration and cost cutting, and can be sold for that price because of it. Brand new console hardware has a pretty standard price and for them to hit that on a niche product would be surprising to say the least.
How is it cost cutting when the new iteration has a UHD player in it?
 

Pineapple

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Since Microsoft and Sony are fully invested in the x86 ISA now, does that mean all future consoles (which won't be using Jaguar CPUs) will still be able to run all previous Xbox One/PS4 titles since they will be using an x86 based processor? Like a PC?
 

KageMaru

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I accounted for that & even without Kinect PS4 had 6 more CUs than Xbox One with the same price range so why would it be out of the question for a console releasing a year later with 4 more CUs & 4 more GDDR5 chips to be within $100 of the price of the PS4 Pro that came out a year earlier ?
That's not the way hardware costs adds up. Even with 6 less CUs the XBO APU was larger and more complex. Now we're seeing another larger APU but you think the cost is about the same as a PS4 Pro?
 

Biggzy

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Since Microsoft and Sony are fully invested in the x86 ISA now, does that mean all future consoles (which won't be using Jaguar CPUs) will still be able to run all previous Xbox One/PS4 titles since they will be using an x86 based processor? Like a PC?
I would not be 100% certain about Sony judging by Cerny's comments to Digital Foundry. However, I do feel Microsoft are now wedged to x86 due to their new commitment to allow you to play your games anywhere.
 
May 18, 2005
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PS4 had 6 more CUs than Xbox One yet it was cheaper while releasing the same month so why would it be out of the question that MS can release a console a year later than the PS4 Pro with 4 more CUs & 4 more GDDR5 memory chips for close to the same price as the PS4 Pro?

I'm not saying that it will be close to the same price but PS4 Pro & Xbox One Scorpio are not worlds apart & if the PS4 Pro was released a year earlier with 36CUs for $399 why couldn't Scorpio release at $499 or $399 with 40CUs a year later?
I agree with you on all points. But I still feel that scorpio will be on the expensive side because of the specs and frills.
 

Chaostar

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I would not be 100% certain about Sony judging by Cerny's comments to Digital Foundry. However, I do feel Microsoft are now wedged to x86 due to their new commitment to allow you to play your games anywhere.
Could you elaborate on this or drop a link please? Thanks.
 

onQ123

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That's not the way hardware costs adds up. Even with 6 less CUs the XBO APU was larger and more complex. Now we're seeing another larger APU but you think the cost is about the second as PS4 Pro?
No I'm saying that it's not out of the question for a console that's releasing a year later with 4 more CUs & 4 more memory chips to be priced at $499 if the PS4 Pro was $399.
 

link1201

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That would be so so incredibly foolish. Halo 6 with 4k checkerboard, 4k textures(this is important), 60fps would look photoreal compared to if they just do native 4k/60fps, it would essentially look a little better than halo 5. They need to experiment with checkerboard rendering if they want their games to look better than anything out.
I'm really glad it's up to the devs.

I agree I'd rather them sacrifice native 4k and go nuts with the other stuff.
 

BleedOrange

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it's basically Xbox vs Ps2 all over again as Graphical gap , if not more ( last time CPU on ps2 was still very good for the developers with some skills and willingness to optimize the code )

GPU is significantly faster
CPU is faster
Memory speed is faster
Memory available is higher

Multiplatform title with decent budget and made by decent developers will be noticeably better on Scorpio on both 4k and 1080p TV set



the only way that Sony has to close the gap, is to develop exclusive title for Ps4 Pro only .
with the incredible developers at their disposal, a PRO based game will be very close if not better than a not optimized one

Microsoft seems all in on "platform scalability " and we won't see anytime soon exclusive games based on Scorpio hardware
Haha, I see you missed all the hooplah leading up to the original Xbox One and PS4 launch. That post is mimicking a post by Albert there who was a little to 'in the bubble' at the time.
 

Biggzy

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Could you elaborate on this or drop a link please? Thanks.
It was mentioned by Richard Ledbetter I believe during their interview for the Pro and Cerny mentioned to him that Sony are not concerned about making a complete break with the previous generation.

I cannot recall the exact video but I imagine it is in the article for the interview.

My personal opinion is they will not go away from x86 as it was chosen for ease of development, but it is an interesting thought.
 

Duderino

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Jan 18, 2013
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Interesting.

"A lot of our internal studios are building games designed from the ground up to showcase true 4k, 6TF all the full power of Scorpio"

Wow that means whatever they show at E3 is going to be mind blowing.
I wouldn't go that far yet. Resolution and teraflops are only a part of the picture.
 

Burdmayn

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That's not really how it works though. The $249 models are the result of years of manufacturing iteration and cost cutting, and can be sold for that price because of it. Brand new console hardware has a pretty standard price and for them to hit that on a niche product would be surprising to say the least.
Can you add some more context here? Are you saying that Scorpio should be priced above the "standard" new console pricing (which I guess would be about $399) because it's for a niche audience?
 
Jan 12, 2008
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Yes sir. Did we ever meet?

I used to play Ken Lobb at Street Fighter back in his Namco days
We MUST have met. I was good friends with Winding back in the day (still keep in touch), and I knew Ken through mutual friends but not as well as I know him now. I came down to the GameFan offices a few times as a fan, and later when I was at EA.

So I'm sure we've met. We can move this to IM if you want but cool to see you're still involved in the hobby. Lots of folks from those days aren't...
 

The Artisan

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Yeah, everyone has their own use cases for these systems. Just as that won't make a difference to me, it's massive for others. Sure this is an incremental increase vs Xbox One, just as PS4 and PS4 Pro, but imo they've gone the right way about it assuming a reasonable price.

I think the intention will be for a whole lot of people to simply wait, which is perfectly fine and one of the great draws of perpetuity. Just enjoy the original Xbox One, then once you're ready to jump into Scorpio, everything gets better and you get reasons to go through old games etc. The value of upgrading is actually worthwhile as it is on PC and you'll get more into that ecosystem that retains all the value you invested in.
yeah man it's really just having a powerhouse, all in 1 system (kinda like what mS was tryna go for with the xbone launch). The Ps3 was arguably the most powerful system last gen, and it was super convenient to also be a Bluray player, so I automatically have the latest tech. Same with Ps2 (even though xbox1 also had this and was more powerful)

but really just with the Ps3 it was awesome having such a powerful console and a Bluray player. When scorpio drops it will be a powerhouse, top of the line premium console and will have the best media playback, 4K blu ray
 

Adam_802

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I may be wrong BUT, isn't the Scorpio (at 6TF) actually more powerful than most people's gaming PCs out there? I remember reading that only like 34% of steam users actually play at 1080p. That number may have gone up in the last year or so, but I'd still imagine that most PC gamer's rigs probably have less than a 6TF GPU on average. Like I said, might be wrong, but if im not its an interesting fact.
 

Darklor01

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It was mentioned by Richard Ledbetter I believe during their interview for the Pro and Cerny mentioned to him that Sony are not concerned about making a complete break with the previous generation.

I cannot recall the exact video but I imagine it is in the article for the interview.

My personal opinion is they will not go away from x86 as it was chosen for ease of development, but it is an interesting thought.
Here's another source:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-21-sony-we-still-believe-in-console-generations

Sony is gearing up for the launch of its PS4 Pro mid-generation upgrade (set for November 10), and PS4 architect Mark Cerny has stressed that the Pro console is just that; he and Sony are still of the mindset that having full console generations matter. Speaking with Gamasutra in much technical detail, Cerny commented, "I believe in generations. Generations are a good thing. So, philosophically, we believe in them. We believe they continue, and this is a mid-generation release."
 

Cyriades

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I may be wrong BUT, isn't the Scorpio (at 6TF) actually more powerful than most people's gaming PCs out there? I remember reading that only like 34% of steam users actually play at 1080p. That number may have gone up in the last year or so, but I'd still imagine that most PC gamer's rigs probably have less than a 6TF GPU on average. Like I said, might be wrong, but if im not its an interesting fact.
Blame Dota 2 and League of Legends.
 

KageMaru

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That would be so so incredibly foolish. Halo 6 with 4k checkerboard, 4k textures(this is important), 60fps would look photoreal compared to if they just do native 4k/60fps, it would essentially look a little better than halo 5. They need to experiment with checkerboard rendering if they want their games to look better than anything out.
I can see them shooting for a dynamic resolution instead of checkerboard rendering (though they can use both). It's already built into the engine and would allow future consoles to run the game at native 4K more often.

I would not be 100% certain about Sony judging by Cerny's comments to Digital Foundry. However, I do feel Microsoft are now wedged to x86 due to their new commitment to allow you to play your games anywhere.
I would be really surprised if Sony doesn't plan on offering full BC in the future, especially since MS already made that intention clear. That's a pretty big disadvantage going forward if you lost your library while your competition offered BC generation after generation.
 

Syrus

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I may be wrong BUT, isn't the Scorpio (at 6TF) actually more powerful than most people's gaming PCs out there? I remember reading that only like 34% of steam users actually play at 1080p. That number may have gone up in the last year or so, but I'd still imagine that most PC gamer's rigs probably have less than a 6TF GPU on average. Like I said, might be wrong, but if im not its an interesting fact.

I got a radeon 7970, how many TF is that? I can play my total war games pretty decent.

My cpu isnt that fancy either
 

Chaostar

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Jan 21, 2013
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It was mentioned by Richard Ledbetter I believe during their interview for the Pro and Cerny mentioned to him that Sony are not concerned about making a complete break with the previous generation.

I cannot recall the exact video but I imagine it is in the article for the interview.

My personal opinion is they will not go away from x86 as it was chosen for ease of development, but it is an interesting thought.

Ah I see, I have read that interview. I believe he was talking about what defined a generation for Sony, and their intention to keep a traditional big jump/cutoff as apposed to iterative upgrades, not about a change in system architecture.

But yeah I'd say X86 was a sure bet either way :)


Again, he is talking about generational transitioning and not moving away from X86.
 
Mar 20, 2012
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That would be so so incredibly foolish. Halo 6 with 4k checkerboard, 4k textures(this is important), 60fps would look photoreal compared to if they just do native 4k/60fps, it would essentially look a little better than halo 5. They need to experiment with checkerboard rendering if they want their games to look better than anything out.
Yup. Checkerboard can achieve wonderful results if used right.
 
Jan 12, 2008
385
0
0
Redmond, WA
Yes sir. Did we ever meet?

I used to play Ken Lobb at Street Fighter back in his Namco days
We MUST have met. I was good friends with Winding back in the day (still keep in touch), and I knew Ken through mutual friends but not as well as I know him now. I came down to the GameFan offices a few times as a fan, and later when I was at EA.

So I'm sure we've met. We can move this to IM if you want but cool to see you're still involved in the hobby. Lots of folks from those days aren't...
 

Rocketz

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I'm really hoping the Microsoft store by me has a demo unit this fall before launch. They did with the OG Xbox One and I hope that continues.
 

anothertech

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PS4 had 6 more CUs than Xbox One yet it was cheaper while releasing the same month so why would it be out of the question that MS can release a console a year later than the PS4 Pro with 4 more CUs & 4 more GDDR5 memory chips for close to the same price as the PS4 Pro?

I'm not saying that it will be close to the same price but PS4 Pro & Xbox One Scorpio are not worlds apart & if the PS4 Pro was released a year earlier with 36CUs for $399 why couldn't Scorpio release at $499 or $399 with 40CUs a year later?
And 3 years ago, this company sold a 14cu box for $499 at launch when their competitor was selling a 20cu box for $399, and they still sold millions. $599 for Scorpio is not a stretch for MS, Kinect or no.

Expecting less than $499 is on the same level as wishing for Vega and zen to magically appear in Scorpio before launch.
 

Darklor01

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Ah I see, I have read that interview. I believe he was talking about what defined a generation for Sony, and their intention to keep a traditional big jump/cutoff as apposed to iterative upgrades, not about a change in system architecture.

But yeah I'd say X86 was a sure bet either way :)




Again, he is talking about generational transitioning and not moving away from X86.
I agree with you. I was just posting a source for what was said.
 

Burdmayn

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I'm really hoping the Microsoft store by me has a demo unit this fall before launch. They did with the OG Xbox One and I hope that continues.
Having worked at a Microsoft store for a short period of time, I'd say that's very likely.

Edit:

So the DX12 hardware integration on Scorpio is also present in Xbox One? I guess Scorpio's secret sauce isn't as special as we thought? Link