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Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
So Zen and Vega were never going to happen. They aren't ready on this timetable and cost profile for semi-custom work. The fact that AMD even said this, and people were resorting to essentially conspiracy theories to justify their beliefs was very telling.
I would never accuse anyone or any company of half-assing things when they are delivering essentially the best product they can for when and for how much they have set as their target. MS did a lot of impressive work on Scorpio, for example getting the speed of the GPU as high as it is. They deserve to be applauded for their work. It's not half assed, or a half step. It's exactly what they said it was going to be.
Chobel
Member
They are under NDA, didn't you hear? They must be lying. /s
Man, leeh and LukasTaves spins were glorious.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Digital Foundry was making passing comments about it performing like a GTX 1070. We're also getting native 4K, 16xAF, Supersampling, 4K Blu-Ray, custom cooling and tuning, boosted performance across Xbox One and Xbox 360 games. Yes, it will flawlessly play hundreds of 360 games.
Scorpio is a hardcore gaming console for people who want the power of PC without the hassle. It's a solid upgrade for both Xbox One and Playstation 4 users.
This is all factually true, but some people still want to try to rain on the parade. I WONDER WHY???
Definitely, I'm moving into a new home next month and I can't wait to kit a room out with 2 4K monitors with a good PC build in preparation for Scorpio.
Orite, don't be a dick.
The same people who were excited for the possibility of it being Zen/Vega are the exact same people who are very excited for Scorpio, knowing it's specs.
There's no need to kick people down around what is in the realm of possibility with the whole "disappointed concern" posts.
It's just the same how everyone was speculating about that second version of the Pro with a better CPU. Like yeah, it was out there, but it doesn't stop people being excited for what's in the realm of possibility.
SymbiantXenos
Member
Getting a pro in a few weeks and 100% getting a scorpio.
Now just to upgrade to a 4k tv.
Now just to upgrade to a 4k tv.
Colbert
Banned
On a last note before I am out for a while:
To all those people debating endlessly about it is "just" Jaguar or it is "just" Polaris:
What do you care about the most?
How a console achieve native 4K 30 or 60fps (fancy new tech) or that a console achieve native 4K 30 or 60fps for the majority of games (by met the requirements for it)?
To me the answer is simple, isn't it?
To all those people debating endlessly about it is "just" Jaguar or it is "just" Polaris:
What do you care about the most?
How a console achieve native 4K 30 or 60fps (fancy new tech) or that a console achieve native 4K 30 or 60fps for the majority of games (by met the requirements for it)?
To me the answer is simple, isn't it?
This is a very common PCMR argument, reductively saying all optimize = cut feature.
I want to know if a 2017 console, if next gen, was actually expected to be any more powerful.
The most importantly thing is that this is done in such a way that we get mid-high PC graphics while being 100% compatible with the older system. It's a nice precedent.
MS has to deliver on games, and that point will be brought up again and again until E3.
The most importantly thing is that this is done in such a way that we get mid-high PC graphics while being 100% compatible with the older system. It's a nice precedent.
MS has to deliver on games, and that point will be brought up again and again until E3.
Sad Affleck
Member
Why do you feel like you wasted your time and money? This is the part I never seem to understand. You paid more money and got a better experience.
They've passed the first hurdle, hardware
If they cant pass the second (software) this E3 then they haven't learned a damn thing over the years
Colbert
Banned
First I did not want to generalize my personal story.
In reflection it wasn't to get the best experience for gaming. For me it was to have the best PC out there. It was all about playing catch up with the latest tech. In effect I just spend more time into upgrading and dealing with those driver issues than actual playing games. I know, my fault, but knowing myself the decision I made was best for me!
The power you get in consoles, especially the PS4 pro, compared to what you get in PC gaming is fantastic value for money.
Like you're not going to get a game looking like Horizon on PC for nearly 400 quid.
This is what confuses me when people say, its definitely not next gen. Removing the exclusive games part.
If a console that is packing as much power as possible to get in around the 4-500 mark, what more could they do?
If Zen, Vega and 16GB+ RAM bump the price up to the $600 mark then this console is just fantasy and could never have existed.
End of 2018 will be 5 full years of this generation, what would be considered a normal cycle if we are not counting the last one. How much more could you expect Sony or MS to fit into their console and still keep the price competitive in 12 months time.
DreadfulOmen
Member
Dude i agree with you.
Fortuneelsewhere
Member
But in this regard neither PS4 Pro is half assed also.. when one or two developers were coming saying Scorpio would be a truly next gen machine it is now proven false.
Pretty much the Scorpio is in simple terms a overclocked PS4 Pro with an exotic cooling system...
Nevertheless it seems to me Scorpio is a pretty solid and well thought machine and a return to form from MS.. and I'm very happy with that.
geordiemp
Member
Yup, I got a Ps4 pro, but was posting madly in the Neo forums before we knew specs desperate for a ZEN lite. I did not care about anything over 4 TF, just CPU IPC and bandwidth.
My wish was for some 30 FPS games on CONSOLE to be 60 FPS CAPABLE if devs allowed. For example, a console that COULD play Witcher 3 at 60 FPS IF CD Red patched. Most third party 30 FPS console games are 60 FPS on PC, so I dont buy the game was developed at 30 argument, dont say that crap.
That for me is next gen, games like GTA or Horizon or RDR2 at 60 FPS, and to get that we need an I5 class CPU than can almost go double quick on instructions over a Jaguar. If Scorpio got one, then it would be a big upgrade over Ps4 pro and day 1 switch for me.
I like the IQ on my 4k set on many titles, dont get me wrong, lets say I like it 20 % more than 1080p, but I would like it 100 % more at a buttery 60 FPS.
Graphics have peaked for me on my 55 inch 4K set, it really is diminishing returns whether its 1440 upscales, 2160 checkerboard or 2160p native - mmm OK....Nice I guess but once your well above 1080p on a living room TV and 6 -9 FT away, then its nice but....
I just look at how smooth the 30 is now and wish it was 60. However, if you have an XB1, then Scorpio is a Fantastic upgrade.
I wouldn't call that being a dick. In terms of Zen as a possibility it was flat out ruled out by AMD yet people choose to speculate around the impossible.
PS4 Pro was unknown so some speculation made sense there at least to a reasonable degree.
Yes, you are right. The Pro is also not half assed. I have said that several times as well.
As for what other people have said, well I can't control that.
In Service
Member
Yeah, but he has internally calculated the cost to enjoyment ratio and, for him, it's not a good one.
Eye of the beholder etc.
It's definately not as fully formed a product as what has been shown of Scorpio even this far.
2 really good examples of this are boost mode , which wasn't in at launch and Sony have washed their hands of in terms of support (by making it "entirely at your own risk). I mean , choices are good, but how about a little less of a wishy washy level of commitment to compatibility.
Second, video capture is still at 1080p and HDR captures are not tone mapped to SDR and don't play back in HDR when captured in that format, so always looks strange.
I don't think either of those make it a "less fully formed product." They are simply different decisions coming from different places and different factors. For example, because of the way the XBO SDK is set up, the improvements they are promising for legacy titles are a more straightforward thing to implement. And the XBO has better hardware to support 4K captures (though yeah, problems with HDR should be addressed).
SeeNoWeevil
Member
Not that anyone would, but If someone built a PC with similar ratio of weak CPU to much more powerful GPU, it would certainly be called 'half-arsed'.
The PC has a lot more viable parts to chose from. MS does not.
SeeNoWeevil
Member
As a machine designed to play X1 games at a native 4K30, it seems perfect. I would call any machine with a ~6tf GPU not capable of 60Hz half arsed though, but that's me.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
The primary goal of scorpio is to run games at ~4K. Even if it somehow had a Zen lite the majority of games would still be 30fps. 4K/60fps takes some doing.
And the Jaguar is perfectly capable of that. It's weak by modern standards but it's not as hopeless as some make out.
I never understood the desperate need for Zen because it wouldn't have changed much anyway, and in fact would have been largely unnecessary for what the Scorpio aims to do.
And the Jaguar is perfectly capable of that. It's weak by modern standards but it's not as hopeless as some make out.
I never understood the desperate need for Zen because it wouldn't have changed much anyway, and in fact would have been largely unnecessary for what the Scorpio aims to do.
I mean, there will be some 60 FPS titles, but MS does have to work within the realms of reality. If having a better CPU was a requirement for the Scorpio to get made, it just wouldn't have been made (at least, not now).
Nah it would absolutely have been very, very nice to get a better CPU in there. There would absolutely be a ton of benefits across the board. It just wasn't really possible to do.
VincentMatts
Member
Because most people here are Sony > Microsoft. Theyll put up some convincing arguments to make you believe they're unbiased but dont kid yourself, their allegiance has been chosen a long time ago.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Of course there would be benefits. But would we see a lot more games running at 60fps in 4K? I doubt it.
That seems like the main reason people were hoping for one, 60fps games.
Sad Affleck
Member
This isn't so out of the ordinary. I'm sure a lot of car enthusiasts for example spend as much time tinkering and customizing as they do driving their cars. Owning and playing with the cutting edge of technology is enjoyable for a lot of people who allow themselves a bit of luxury every now and then.
How do you determine value for money? I think the performance per dollar ratio of a decent PC is not that far off the PS4 Pro. It might even beat it. If a PC that costs twice as much as the PS4 Pro performs three times better, which is better value for money?
Yes, there would have been more 60 FPS games, and for games running below that they would have been much more likely to be locked at 30.
Amoung other improvements.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
When you aim for 4k/30fps with a GPU like Pro/Scorpio have, the difference in framerate between a 2.1GHz Jag and a CPU twice as fast is like 5%. In this sense, the CPU doesn't matter since most console games are GPU-bound and 30fps.
Patches. To add it will run games with dynamic rendering at what their highest target was.
Scorpio won't run any existing game at 4K unless that game is patched to do so. Then it might run at native 4K, or any number of other options.
SeeNoWeevil
Member
The GPU isn't up to the job of 4K at 60Hz and 4K is the number one goal. So I don't really see the point in slapping in a more expensive cpu.
If you don't care about 60fps, these consoles are fantastic value. If you do, they're crap value.
TLDR; 60fps is expensive.
PC versions will always look better unless the devs fucks them up like f.ex. parity.
Maedre
Banned
onyl if you have the hardware needed.
If that additional performance doesn't really bring someone any more joy, then the additional expense is wasted.
With all the PC talk in this thread I fully expect, sooner or later, someone will say that the Scorpio gives games better performances in 4K and 1080p, or in general, than an GTX 1080.
Sure. Just like with Xbox and PS4 , only if you have the right console your PS4 game will be better on Pro than on OG PS4.
Sure. Just like with Xbox and PS4 , only if you have the right console your PS4 game will be better on Pro than on OG PS4.
oldergamer
Member
Thats not correct. Games that support dynamic resolution or frame rate will run in 4k now. The rest will need to be patched
What games on XBO support a dynamic resolution up to 4K?
Dee Dah Dave
Member
That's what I'm saying. A Zen would obviously be an improvement but I don't think it would have dramatically changed the situation.
And the sub 30fps games to me are just down to poor optimization by the developers. If you gave them a better CPU they would just bottleneck themselves somewhere else, in a bid to create shiny graphics and be damned with performance!
Uhh no. It will run at the max resolution the game has until patched. Halo 5 will run all the time at 1080p now. Unless they do a patch that will add 4k textures and enable it.
Liabe Brave
Member
Are we certain 16x AF is forced in all cases? The article that mentions this has a direct quote from Microsoft that all bilinear and trilinear filtering is changed to anisotropic, "And then we've dialled up the anisotropic all the way up to max". Taken very exactly, that doesn't actually claim that, say, 4x AF will be upgraded too. You'd think it would...but Microsoft also said "all our titles" (emphasis mine) will have 16x across the board. Why would they have to specify first-party if the feature is truly universal?
That it's achieved is obviously most important. But discussion about Jaguar and Polaris isn't just noise about meamingless details. Thw fact the the machine uses Jaguar and Polaris actually directly affects the likelihood of whether 60fps will happen at all, and the percentage of games that'll be able to reach native 4K. The specific silicon used, and how it's used, are the reason some games won't be improved on Scorpio, for example.
In addition, the hardware chosen speaks to the future as well. Zen was argued (correctly, in my opinion) to be necessary for the "wide generations" approach Microsoft could take. That is, standard Xbox One being unsupported by games after Scorpio 2 comes out, with Scorpio becoming the new baseline. With a cutting-edge (for 2017 consoles) CPU, a big jump in CPU demands for games could be accommodated. Now if Scorpio 2 games have to run on Jaguar, lesser results must be anticipated.
Well, which is it? Are choices good, or do you want the platform holder to dictate what level of jank is acceptable? It sounds like you normally would praise having options, but for some reason you want to criticize it in this particular case.
Texture filtering. 16x anisotropic filtering
Faster loading
Smoother performance
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DF Videocast #9: Project Scorpio vs PS4 Pro + More
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AiQlu7h5C4
anothertech
Member
Oh sh*t! Bwahahaaa