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[Tesseract]

i always play deh womens when i can. souls, skyrim, mass effect, final fantasy 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 and especially 13.

 

[thesolidshark]

I can take them or leave them (I'd love to have that option for most games with helpless women). I've been lucky that I haven't had to deal with one in a long time.

The argument I hear about why these tropes exist is that they cater to male fantasy. But who really has or wants those fantasys? That's what this thread is for.

The male fantasy can be catered to without using helpless women, or helpless anybody for that matter; it's just really simple justification for those making stories for games, and for shaping characteristics. We can tear through armies of bad guys just as the requirements of a mission to fulfil a male fantasy.

 

[DiscoJer]

I think it's just an easy/lazy MacGuffin, mostly.

But with that said, I do think men instinctively protect women, and women probably tend to instinctively protect children and/or the elderly. Like it or not, we are the product of millions of years of evolutionary behavior.

A number of casual games (whose demographic skew female) have you playing a woman trying to save her father. This actually is something found in a lot of fiction aimed at girls/women, like Nancy Drew. She often rescues her father.

Heck, that is a big trope in adventure fiction as well - usually you have the young male hero, and then there is an elderly professor or something with a beautiful daughter. Usually the professor needs more rescuing than the daughter.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Helpless women are pretty god damn boring 99% of the time. I would feel nothing if they got rid of it all together.

 

[Jea Song]

Doesn't bother me if its actually relevant to the story. What was annoying however is super Mario 3d land. Same crap princess being kidnaped. I know Mario is anything but story, but fuck that shit, it had no thought process other than peach is captured, yet a fuckingain

 

[smr00]

No but it doesn't bother me like some.

It is what it is. It's a shitty trope that will continue to persist in every medium. Movies, Books, Games, Shows etc.

 

[Coxy]

nope, but I dont like mary sue bullshit characters either. I like well fleshed out characters with strengths and flaws, loves and hates and actual interaction with the rest of the cast of characters.

but none of that matters if their boobs arent exactly the acceptable size /kotaku

 

[Parakeetman]

I prefer useful women.

Like my wonderful pawns in Dragons Dogma.

 

[toastyToast]

If the game is fun I really don't care

Doesn't bother me if its actually relevant to the story. What was annoying however is super Mario 3d land. Same crap princess being kidnaped. I know Mario is anything but story, but fuck that shit, it had no thought process other than peach is captured, yet a fuckingain

I started this just yesterday and I laughed so fucking much. Bowser straight up sends a postcard with him snatching Peach's ass up without even a hint where he went. Mario is like, "Fuck it. Time to jump on some goombas."

 

[zoukka]

The only thing I dislike more than the helpless women in some games, is the games that try to turn women into men with boobs. That is to say women who are portrayed to be "just like the doodz"... It's unimaginative, lazy, and is just the developers way of trying to skirt controversy instead of making an indepth and enjoyable female character.

For a good (probably the best) example, see Alyx Vance from Half Life 2.

Oh jeez.

 

[RiverBed]

It's an archaic story/game mechanic.

 

[disappeared]

It's an archaic story/game mechanic.

It's been used in literature for hundreds of years.

I suppose it's just one of those crutches that stories will always fall back on.

I prefer strong female characters, almost goes without saying, but the problem - at least in most games - is that there are very few of them.

 

[dokish]

I prefer saving the president

What about his daughter?

 

[Eusis]

I've never fully understood the logic behind the man with boobs thing. I'm guessing some people don't like it when females don't express stereotypical traits/features.

I remember a quote where someone was asking a writer why a female he wrote was so good.

His answer was something like "I wrote her as a person". That's why statements like that annoy me, since it seems people who say stuff like that consider the character as a stereotype first before a person. And when they see a character not exhibit these traits/features associated with the stereotype they accuse them of being "false" hence the man with boobs thing. At least that's the only way I can understand it that makes sense.

As for the original topic, that kind of thing isn't a bullet point for me.

There are some times when it's overdone like with Sully in Fire Emblem: Awakening, but I'm not sure I can even say "man with boobs" so much as she goes to the degree of just being... abnormal. I imagine NEITHER a normal man or normal woman would make as big of a deal of some of the things as she does unless explicitly challenged on it. But then most of the FE:A characters are overdone anime archetypes so that just means she's an extremely convenient example.

 

[shouamabane]

video games ≠ life

 

[Giolon]

Yes, but it all depends on context. If ALL of the female characters are helpless, then I question the reason why. If a couple are? That's fine, it just adds variety to the characters. Not everybody has to be strong and capable. The same goes for male characters.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

I hate escort missions.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

There are some times when it's overdone like with Sully in Fire Emblem: Awakening, but I'm not sure I can even say "man with boobs" so much as she goes to the degree of just being... abnormal. I imagine NEITHER a normal man or normal woman would make as big of a deal of some of the things as she does unless explicitly challenged on it. But then most of the FE:A characters are overdone anime archetypes so that just means she's an extremely convenient example.

I'm not sure if I gave the wrong idea with my previous post or not but I don't agree with using the term "man with boobs" in any kind of context where I would actually want to be taken seriously.

I didn't find anything wrong with Sully at all personally. Once again she doesn't adhere to typical feminine stereotypes. She's forward and fairly blunt.

I don't think that males should have a monoply on personality variation. When people say things like that they are essentially encouraging shit like "only women cook!" and "go make me a sammich" and other stereotypical shit. It's saying that women can only act within their stereotype, and if they deviate then they are in fact no longer women but men followed by insults (usually).

Same logic can be applied to male characters as well. With that same logic one could say Kanji from Persona 4's actually a women with no boobs because he like to knit and make stuffed animals/toys, a stereo-typically feminine activity. Try finding someone to say that seriously and not get ripped to pieces on this board and you'll see how stupid the "man with boobs" statement really is.

This kind of thing is absolutely not a problem if you view humans/characters as people first and gender second. Based on how often I see the "man with boobs" statement it seems there's a noticeable lack of them posting.

 

[PaperFlame]

I like it when a hero tries to save the princess, those stories are always my favorite.

 

[dab0ne]

Depends why they're helpless. The "helpless" woman in Shadow of the Colossus is justified IMO.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

I dont care if the women is helpless or not, as long as the character looks good.
I liked saving the topless female captives in Conan, just like I find it fun to kick ass with Cammy in Street Figher or my sexy warrior princess in Skyrim.

 

[ChronoX]

Arnold Schwarzenegger prefers you rescue the President. There needs to be more portrayal of stronger women in gaming as far as I'm concerned.

 

[polyh3dron]

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE HELPLESS MALE PRESIDENTS

 

[kejigoto]

As someone who was married to a woman who was completely helpless I do not find it attractive in the slightest. The idea of having to take care of someone (not physically like a child) is just a massive turn off.

Someone who can solve their own problems, doesn't just quit when the going gets rough, and is capable of functioning on their own is far more attractive than someone who needs me for just about everything.

 

[fallagin]

Helpless women give me so many boners, aww yiss.

 

[Diomedeskun]

I find characters who are helpless incredibly unappealing. In Ico's case, it was fine because it created an interesting new gameplay mechanic and you happened to play a little boy who for much of the game was barely capable of fighting. Under normal circumstances, though, I find anyone unable to at least attempt to take care of themselves really aggravating. I much prefer a female character who is a competent, capable warrior fighting at my side and helping me out when I need a hand over a princess who's been kidnapped.

 

[redcrayon]

Arnold Schwarzenegger prefers you rescue the President. There needs to be more portrayal of stronger women in gaming as far as I'm concerned.

I always find the 'rescue the president' plot device/fantasy aimed at the US market in games and films hilarious.

I suspect most British gamers, upon finding a locked up prime minister, would be more like:

"Yes, Cameron, that is an alien death ninja coming this way. No, actually this is EXACTLY the time to open a debate on your failed manifesto, the NHS, Europe etc!"

 

[Cerity]

Depends how it's done. Usually they're done terribly. The last one to get on my tits was kat in DmC

 

[Eusis]

I'm not sure if I gave the wrong idea with my previous post or not but I don't agree with using the term "man with boobs" in any kind of context where I would actually want to be taken seriously.

I didn't find anything wrong with Sully at all personally. Once again she doesn't adhere to typical feminine stereotypes. She's forward and fairly blunt.

I don't think that males should have a monoply on personality variation. When people say things like that they are essentially encouraging shit like "only women cook!" and "go make me a sammich" and other stereotypical shit. It's saying that women can only act within their stereotype, and if they deviate then they are in fact no longer women but men followed by insults (usually).

Same logic can be applied to male characters as well. With that same logic one could say Kanji from Persona 4's actually a women with no boobs because he like to knit and make stuffed animals/toys, a stereo-typically feminine activity. Try finding someone to say that seriously and not get ripped to pieces on this board and you'll see how stupid the "man with boobs" statement really is.

This kind of thing is absolutely not a problem if you view humans/characters as people first and gender second. Based on how often I see the "man with boobs" statement it seems there's a noticeable lack of them posting.

Nah, I didn't think you agreed with the "man with boobs" thing, I was just going on something else there that could be summarized as there likely really isn't an appropriate time to use "man with boobs": either the character's just a normal person, or the character is so exaggerated she's not really LIKE a normal man anyway, thus making the statement moot. I just pulled Sully as an example of the latter, but as noted most of the characters in FE:A are greatly exaggerated anyway, only some of the main cast come off as remotely normal.

Granted, just how different they really should be is a loaded topic, but I'm inclined to think the differences in personalities tend to be more subtle when we escape cultural baggage.

 

[Plywood]

I hate incompetent/useless characters and their accompanying tropes.

 

[michaelius]

I like games - if the game is good i don't try to break it down and over analyze if it has tropes or whatever bullshit is currently on the gaming press mouths.

 

[Lain]

I like all kind of women in my games, from the strong types that can fend for themselves to the helpless types that need a hero to save them, with all the in-betweens.

 

[RawkHawk2010]

I prefer it when I'm helpless and the woman is doing whatever she wants to me.

Spoiler

...like saving me.

 

[Chet Rippo]

I like talented girls.

 

[redcrayon]

Nah, I didn't think you agreed with the "man with boobs" thing, I was just going on something else there that could be summarized as there likely really isn't an appropriate time to use "man with boobs": either the character's just a normal person, or the character is so exaggerated she's not really LIKE a normal man anyway, thus making the statement moot. I just pulled Sully as an example of the latter, but as noted most of the characters in FE:A are greatly exaggerated anyway, only some of the main cast come off as remotely normal.

Granted, just how different they really should be is a loaded topic, but I'm inclined to think the differences in personalities tend to be more subtle when we escape cultural baggage.

Good example. To be fair, recent Fire Emblem games have a massive cast of 40+ characters with the majority only having a couple of dozen lines to sketch out their character- I think they are often examples of a broad range of stereotypes done well, as they have to paint characters with simple strokes, rather than having 12 hours of the character on screen to do so. As such, the character traits are often easily switchable- shy junior mage, analytical senior mage, quiet knight, stalwart general, enthusiastic rookie, blunt, forceful cavalier all have little to do with gender, and have pretty much appeared as both male and female characters over the years.

Titania from Radiant Dawn/Path of Radiance is a good example- she's in Frederick's '2nd in command' role, wise, capable and one of your most powerful characters, but beyond the odd reference to her femininity she serves the exact same role, with Kieran serving the 'blunt aggressive cavalier' role instead of Sully. All in all, it's done pretty well, the traits are more important for character than gender, healers and powerful soldiers are just as likely to be male as female etc etc.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Nah, I didn't think you agreed with the "man with boobs" thing, I was just going on something else there that could be summarized as there likely really isn't an appropriate time to use "man with boobs": either the character's just a normal person, or the character is so exaggerated she's not really LIKE a normal man anyway, thus making the statement moot. I just pulled Sully as an example of the latter, but as noted most of the characters in FE:A are greatly exaggerated anyway, only some of the main cast come off as remotely normal.

Granted, just how different they really should be is a loaded topic, but I'm inclined to think the differences in personalities tend to be more subtle when we escape cultural baggage.

I think I understand what you mean now. I also agree about the last part. Removing cultural limitations would improve clarity.

 

[dragonelite]

No. I don't care. Nobody thinks about the plot when playing Mario, it could easily be an actual peach that was stolen from Mario and he's pissed off killing turtles about THAT.

After a day of plumbing i better need to get that high from my mushrooms.
That fucking turtle again....

 

[RiverBed]

It's been used in literature for hundreds of years.

Doesn't change the fact.

It's an easy 'reason' for an 'adventure'. What people fail to realize is that an 'adventure' doesn't need 'reason' to exist if it is good enough. It can definitely help, but a good 'adventure' can stand alone- as proven with truley timeless classics of all manner of media through the test of time.

 

[jimi_dini]

What about his daughter?

Better than Sheva.

Spoiler

the AI that is

 

[Laughing Banana]

I find characters who are helpless incredibly unappealing. In Ico's case, it was fine because it created an interesting new gameplay mechanic and you happened to play a little boy who for much of the game was barely capable of fighting. Under normal circumstances, though, I find anyone unable to at least attempt to take care of themselves really aggravating. I much prefer a female character who is a competent, capable warrior fighting at my side and helping me out when I need a hand over a princess who's been kidnapped.

But ICO is arguably the best (worst) example of "helpless women". She literally can't do anything without the boy guiding/pulling her like a... well, not sure that word is still okay here.

She doesn't even attempt to run from the shadowy creatures. She just... stand there.

 

[Eusis]

But ICO is arguably the best (worst) example of "helpless women". She literally can't do anything without the boy guiding/pulling her like a... well, not sure that word is still okay here.

She doesn't even attempt to run from the shadowy creatures. She just... stand there.

Maybe she's just going with the flow and doesn't really care that much in general, just being bored and now has something to do.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Maybe she's just going with the flow and doesn't really care that much in general, just being bored and now has something to do.

"Who is this kid? And why is he dragging me around? Seems interesting, hmmmmmmm."

Hahaha.

Anyways, saying that "I really hate helpless women!" but then immediately afterwards saying one of the best/worst examples of it as "ok" since he enjoys it just struck me as... really weird.

 

[Karsticles]

But ICO is arguably the best (worst) example of "helpless women". She literally can't do anything without the boy guiding/pulling her like a... well, not sure that word is still okay here.

She doesn't even attempt to run from the shadowy creatures. She just... stand there.

I always felt that she was mentally traumatized and had to be looked after.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I don't mind unless its means I will have to di a shit ton of escort/protection missions and the AI is stupid. There are two sides to the spectrum, and I think they both should be explored in a better way.

 

[encephalon]

Weak characters work in horror games. But in everything else, I prefer stronger or at least useful female characters.

 

[daniels]

I only like helpless woman if they dress slutty

 

[Rekki-Maru]

hell yea, escort missions mix shit up by refreshing the pace of a game.

 

[crazy_about_denise]

What a bizarre question. In games: No
If they can take care of themselves and don't stand in your way it's ok.
Escorting an AI that seems to intentionally confront bad guys head on is crap.

 

[TUROK]

I don't give a damn whether they're helpless or not as long as they're good characters.

I know dudes rescuing chicks is so cis and stuff, but I'm not bent out of shape about it unless I have to protect them and their AI fucking sucks. Must be my male privilege.

 

[Ethranes]

It's a pretty broad question, but companies do still have weak female characters in their games, so either we're buying it up, or we have no interest in it, which doesn't seem to be the case.