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[Uncle Rupee]

It has little to do with gamers and everything to do with game designers needing something to motivate their hero with as little story as possible.
Especially in the early days when every byte counted.

 

[antitrop]

but do you like it?

Absolutely no preference one way or the other. Complete indifference and apathy.

 

[Verelios]

No, because when she dies that means I have to redo the mission. And I do not want to redo the mission. I do not need to redo the mission. I have done the mission 50 times already and each time was because she was too weak and helpless!

...Sorry, SRPG memories.

 

[adroit]

I love the butt-kicking, name-taking women in Fire Emblem. Sully, Cordelia, Anna, Tharja, Sumia, Miriel, etc. I love them all.

 

[DrSlek]

I enjoy a well written narrative regardless of "tropes" used.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

It depends on if they are a well written and realized character. Gender may not always matter. Helplessness as well.

One of my favorite Persona characters is a helpless girl. It's part of her character arch.

 

[Venin]

I'm not sure if this thread was specifically to be about actual "feminism" and how women should stop being helpless in video games, but the truth of the matter is, someone will need help in some shape or form, and I don't completely hate helping someone who needs it. But there are limits to this.

I'm entirely okay with Mario games, because Peach is a princess, not a warrior. She can't fight back, especially when her captor is freaking Koopa. To me, Mario going after Peach is CUTE. It's more of a subtle love story than anything else.

People will always need help. It would be a nice change of pace for that person needing help to not be a crying female, though. Believe it or not, men need help, too, sometimes, and that doesn't make them less of a man.

The REASON why characters need saving is also very important. If the situation makes sense, it's a lot less annoying. And the characters themselves should be less whiny about it.

 

[BlackIronCount]

Hell no
Gamers are not like Otaku

bunch of otaku liking tsundere and yandere say otherwise (lots of otaku targeted game actually have strong girls)

 

[Winterfang]

Depends on the game. If the female protagonist is useless and needs my help because she was kidnapped, it gives me a reason to go rescue her.

If she is useless while she is with me, then she can go fuck herself.

Basically, as long as her helplessness doesn't affect my gameplay. I'm good.

 

[Meccanical]

No, because when she dies that means I have to redo the mission. And I do not want to redo the mission. I do not need to redo the mission. I have done the mission 50 times already and each time was because she was too weak and helpless!

...Sorry, SRPG memories.

Ahhh...dear old Rapha.

 

[Dahbomb]

Helpless people in general are fucking annoying so no.

This right here.

 

[DaBoss]

I don't really care if it is a helpless man or woman. They're just a character that's helpless.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

I actually prefer strong women.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Why would I want that? It's terrible story motivation, and when they actually show up in gameplay it's just so they can stick a second health bar on the screen and make me worry about the AI screwing me over. I would rather do away with a lot of female characters because they're either lame, and when they try to give them an ACTION role, it's as some kind of transparent femme fatale who ISN'T AFRAID TO USE HER SEXUALITY. That's not a strong female character, it's just an obnoxious archetype. I don't want a female character who is strong/ not helpless for the sake of having a strong female character, I either want them to do shit that helps me (certain RPG party members), or just stay out of the way entirely.

 

[StayDead]

Yes and no. I like the characters I love to have a variation of maybe less strong women and also strong women, much like the balance is in real life.

Much like males in real life there isn't just one type of person. There's women who are weaker physically or emotionally and also women who are stronger physically and emotionally. Nobody is the same and it's ridiculous to say weaker women shouldn't appear in games because then you're saying to the women who maybe are weaker that they're doing something wrong.

Much like removing big breasts from things, you're discriminating agianst the women who do have large breasts and it's stupid. Look at Auistralia. They ban porn with any women with A cup breasts despite many women over the age of 18 have that cup size. They're basically saying that anyone with a flat chest isn't a grown woman which is crazy.

 

[SolarPowered]

Depends on the game. If the female protagonist is useless and needs my help because she was kidnapped, it gives me a reason to go rescue her.

If she is useless while she is with me, then she can go fuck herself.

Basically, as long as her helplessness doesn't affect my gameplay. I'm good.

Came to post this, but it's already here.

It really depends on whether or not it affects the gameplay at hand. Castles were built so we wouldn't have to deal with Ashley types of characters all the time.

As for me? I don't care that much either way.

 

[jello44]

To me, I never saw it as rescuing someone that was "helpless" just that it was the right thing to do, regardless of gender.

I have a fetish for tomboys

Me too. >_>

 

[Kinyou]

Always depends on the game and its story.

There's some short sequence at the end of Uncharted 2 where you have to protect Elena. Don't think anyone was really bothered by that.

 

[Franklinator]

Nope. It kinda bothers me sometimes, actually.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Ashley in RE4 is a brilliant mechanic that heightens tension and forces an even higher level of skillful positioning and spacial awareness.

 

[Viewtify]

Helping helpless woman (and men) in Dead Rising was fun, so it depends on the game. It's always funny to watch people flip their shit over stuff like this though.

 

[Data West]

No because I'm sick of all these damn escort missions, female or male.

 

[Fjordson]

Yeah, I don't get this idea at all. And if it's present, I'm not it focused on it. Not like it's a bullet point that sells me on the game "OOH YES, time for some vulnerable females!".

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

It never really bothered me. I don't go out of my way for "damsel in distress" titles but I'm also not seeking out games with a "damsel not in distress."

 

[Kinyou]

Ashley in RE4 is a brilliant mechanic that heightens tension and forces an even higher level of skillful positioning and spacial awareness.

That's a good point. I think escorting Ashley enhanced Re4's gameplay in multiple ways

 

[pargonta]

I actually do enjoy this type of narrative, yes.

i love horror movies where women run through the woods being chased. i'm watching one now!

it's an established trope, not inherently negative, and understood to be fictional and not part of reality and realistic social issues.


but yes, i am getting tired of it being in EVERY game... then it's hard to weed out the lazy writing and legitimate stories.

 

[Canadian Psycho]

The argument I hear about why these tropes exist is that they cater to male fantasy. But who really has or wants those fantasys? That's what this thread is for.

Personally, I just need good gameplay. Mario has it in spades (story is a placeholder, it's mindless, light-hearted fluff). I also have never come across anyone who plays a game because they are so interested in saving the girl, so who knows. Probably just plain laziness.

(I have a profound dislike of realistic looking games, be it in story or graphics. That's why I have no real interest in where the industry is heading: "thought-provoking" indie games and lifelike AAA games aren't my idea of escapism at all. Because of this, I have become more and more interested in the more abstract (ugly) looking games of the 32/64 bit era. And thank God for Nintendo.)

 

[Flame Lord]

I don't really care either way. If a games fun but has a story where you save some girl from getting kidnapped, I'm still going to buy it.

 

[conman]

It's as lame as "saving the world/universe/country/race/village."

The difference is that we've outgrown the trope of the damsel in distress, but we haven't outgrown the "save the world" trope. Both are equally troubling in terms of their psychology and politics.

 

[Shaanyboi]

In regards of a character like Princess Peach in a Mario game, I don't really care. And for what it's worth, Peach manages to get involved in the fight in some of the RPGs.


But all other times, no. Not saying she has to be total gun-toting badass to compensate or something. That's not the point. But if her helplessness is getting in the way and I'm constantly having to be like "Oh right, she can't do shit, so now I have to go solve this problem of her getting dragged away" or something, that is annoying as all hell.


Fire Emblem: Awakening has some cool female characters who can clearly take care of themselves. Sully or Cherche, for example. Morrigan in Dragon Age can clearly handle herself. Liara clearly isn't super tough at the start of Mass Effect, but by ME3, she's seen some shit and can hold her own. Hell, in Persona 4, Chie's whole personal story is that she wants to kick more ass in the name in justice. That's awesome.

I prefer someone who could back me up in a fight, or like Elizabeth in Bioshock: Infinite, knows how to keep herself safe when shit goes down.

 

[Tomat]

It's as lame as "saving the world/universe/country/race/village."

The difference is that we've outgrown the trope of the damsel in distress, but we haven't outgrown the "save the world" trope. Both are equally troubling in terms of their psychology and politics.

What do you mean by outgrow? As in these tropes should not be used anymore?

 

[Korigama]

Absolutely no preference one way or the other. Complete indifference and apathy.

This. Not every game or narrative is exactly the same (no more than every woman is exactly the same), so it's entirely dependent upon what the work calls for.

 

[hgarrett54]

Does uh... Anyone ever play a Mario game for the plot? Ever?

 

[Trakdown]

Depends on the context. Escort missions...eh, not so much, but even then if it's contextually sound it can add to the game. As a reward (Princess Peach, Marian in Double Dragon) it's actually kind of a non-factor. Their rescue is just an indicator that the game is over; the actual quest is defeating the main bad guy.

But I love me some strong, capable women in games.

Does uh... Anyone ever play a Mario game for the plot? Ever?

If anybody played Mario 2 for plot, they must've been pissed at the end.

 

[Dragon]

I don't. I like my women witty though.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Don't care either way. What would bother me would be something or someone blatantly going out of their way to make me care.

 

[not psycho]

Some good stories can involve some helpless women or helpless men. If so, I have no problem with that.

The only thing I dislike more than the helpless women in some games, is the games that try to turn women into men with boobs.

I think this accusation is often without merit though. I'll use Lara Croft as an example.

Lara was a rich, spoiled girl who wanted to go on adventures for fun. So she asked her parents, and they used their money and influence to let her accompany a top archeologist.

That's a refreshing story to me, and doesn't seem typical for a male character. Lara herself is the driving force behind wanting to go on adventures. It wasn't for revenge or to fight bad guys or anything else originally, she just wanted to do it, and she had the means to make it happen.

Even Indiana Jones originally had certain intentions ("that belongs in a museum"). Batman was created because of an outside force. Lara just found the idea exciting.

And also, exactly what qualities does a woman need to be given to prove they are a woman? Bad characters are bad characters, of either gender. That is a problem. Women not being given enough "proof" of womanhood isn't a problem in my experience.

 

[ciridesu]

1. Helpless is too strong of a word.
2. It's not just 'gamers'.

Now that that is out of the way, the answer to your question is a boring one: it depends.

To each their own; some people dig girls, who need someone to be there for them, while some prefer the independent type. If someone categorizes gamers as basement nerds waiting for the virtual opportunity to save a helpless woman waiting for their savior, then that is factually wrong. But, it's also not wrong to say that quite a few guys like to protect their girl, even if the girl is made out of polygons.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I don't really notice it, they're just pieces of fiction by different creators.

I'm like you. I tend to not overthink things. It's only annoying when it's egregious, but that's a bit rare. The typical doesn't grab my attention much.

 

[SolarPowered]

Ashley in RE4 is a brilliant mechanic that heightens tension and forces an even higher level of skillful positioning and spacial awareness.

Yeah, people didn't like her much, but I preferred her to Sheva since her use actually changed the way the game played temporarily. Sheva is like a slightly different Chris skin for the most part.

Ashley or Sheva on 24/7 is gonna get on anyone's nerves though!

 

[Village]

Some good stories can involve some helpless women or helpless men. If so, I have no problem with that.





I think this accusation is often without merit though. I'll use Lara Croft as an example.

Lara was a rich, spoiled girl who wanted to go on adventures for fun. So she asked her parents, and they used their money and influence to let her accompany a top archeologist.

That's a refreshing story to me, and doesn't seem typical for a male character. Lara herself is the driving force behind wanting to go on adventures. It wasn't for revenge or to fight bad guys or anything else originally, she just wanted to do it, and she had the means to make it happen.

Even Indiana Jones originally had certain intentions ("that belongs in a museum"). Batman was created because of an outside force. Lara just found the idea exciting.

And also, exactly what qualities does a woman need to be given to prove they are a woman? Bad characters are bad characters, of either gender. That is a problem. Women not being given enough "proof" of womanhood isn't a problem in my experience.

So women cannot do these things with out being men with boobs?

I think the men with boobs things refers to the fact that they have no character, they aren't men with boobs. They are just boring.

 

[Kelegacy]

I'm fine with it. Games are fantasy. If every game was based in reality, it would be boring as heck.

I'm not a woman hater, but I have no qualms with making saving a woman (or man or thing or anything) the ultimate goal. I have zero issues with it, other than when it becomes too cliche. These days, I can't remember the last time I saved a damsel in distress.

I wish there were more games like that, to be honest.

 

[JordanN]

1. Helpless is too strong of a word.
2. It's not just 'gamers'.

Now that that is out of the way, the answer to your question is a boring one: it depends.

To each their own; some people dig girls, who need someone to be there for them, while some prefer the independent type. If someone categorizes gamers as basement nerds waiting for the virtual opportunity to save a helpless woman waiting for their savior, then that is factually wrong. But, it's also not wrong to say that quite a few guys like to protect their girl, even if the girl is made out of polygons.

I only mentioned "gamers" because of the context (video games). I'm sure other forms of entertainment may use the same trope. But is it to the same extent as video games and do people who don't play them buy them is what made me separate it.

 

[Crash Station]

I'm more a fan of psychotic women. They're so fun in games like No More Heroes.

 

[Eusis]

Mainly only in Mario/Zelda, though depending on how it's executed in others it can bug me. Sometimes the person that needs rescuing just happens to be female, and the real alternative isn't kidnapping the heroes so much as, say, kidnapping kings and princes that can't defend themselves well either. Actually, we already saw that with politicians and presidents. Actually that's another way of looking at: are they kidnapping people who are in positions that make them useful to capture, or do they just fall back on it lamely and on female characters that are more capable?

Does uh... Anyone ever play a Mario game for the plot? Ever?

RPGs aside I'd just like a change for the sake of flavor. Look at SMB2 for example, it's not a game you want to play for plot but said plot is used to offer a fundamentally different style compared to other Mario titles. Which ties into half of why it bugs me with Nintendo games, because it just comes off as so formulaic and that I'm retreading the same steps. Zelda gets special mention because they've been showing her as clearly having extraordinary powers from OoT onwards, so she's been moving from the helpless princess role despite clearly capable of holding her own, and it'd make things interesting if the games seriously ran with that and skipped on the "kidnapped and needs to be rescued" plot. Phantom Hourglass was basically the nadir of that to me actually, a better developed Zelda that basically got tied up and thrown into the storage room 5 minutes in.

 

[conman]

What do you mean by outgrow? As in these tropes should not be used anymore?

Yup. "Saving the helpless woman" and "saving the world/universe/country" are classic adolescent male power fantasies. Not even young children (male or female) are as egotistical as that. I would hope that we in the industry can outgrow those stories as our defining plotlines and themes. It's silly. Hollywood isn't any better these days.

 

[MoonLightWave]

I don't base my judgement on a game solely if it has helpless women or not.

I never understood the controversy around "knight in shining armor"/"damsel in distress" etc.

 

[RoombaDance]

Save the world, get the girl. It's the simplest story (also pure objectification of women). Most of the time you couldn't care less about the girl you're saving though. Like Peach - she's pretty annoying really.

It works just as well the other way around though, and it's not something isolated to video games.

 

[danwarb]

If you pick Blaze in Streets of Rage 2, you're a woman saving the guy from Streets of Rage 1.

 

[Tomat]

Yup. "Saving the helpless woman" and "saving the world/universe" are classic adolescent male power fantasies. Not even young children (male or female) are as egotistical as that. I would hope that we in the industry can outgrow those stories as our defining plotlines and themes.

I don't think the industry as a whole needs to outgrow it though. Rely on it less as a serious plot device? Sure, that's probably fine with everyone. But if it's a game that with a story that is not to be taken seriously, or is used in an interesting way or joking manner, I don't see it as being a big deal at all. Saying "we shouldn't use this at all anymore" is silly to me.