Tesseract
Banned
tell us more zen master, what real ultimate mature stories should we reach towards? i want to touch god.
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Do gamers actually like helpless women?
- Thread starter JordanN
- Start date
tell us more zen master, what real ultimate mature stories should we reach towards? i want to touch god.
Semi related
(Chrono Trigger spoilers). Complete player and gender role reversal.
And yes, saving someone who needs saving can always be an enjoyable experience. I don't think its even that common of a trope anymore in video games for it to be a tired cliche, at this point something like Mario saving Peach is refreshingly simplistic in a way. Everyone likes to play the hero, even if its just a fantasy.
but I always liked how Lucca would come save Crono from prison in Chrono Trigger if you waited long enough
And yes, saving someone who needs saving can always be an enjoyable experience. I don't think its even that common of a trope anymore in video games for it to be a tired cliche, at this point something like Mario saving Peach is refreshingly simplistic in a way. Everyone likes to play the hero, even if its just a fantasy.
Riposte
Member
Just reverse what is good in life. Exchange power fantasies for weakness fantasies. Exchange egotism for meekness. Exchange scale for smallness. Exchange pleasure for denial. Then you can be mature too!
Depends on context, like everything. Once or twice, I think it's okay. When it really get overused, fuck this shit.
I'll only say that Princess Peach being kidnapped has become a really stupid tradition that has long overstayed it's welcome and could easily be replaced with another excuse without causing a single drop of quality in Mario games.
I'll only say that Princess Peach being kidnapped has become a really stupid tradition that has long overstayed it's welcome and could easily be replaced with another excuse without causing a single drop of quality in Mario games.
Spring-Loaded
Member
This actually sounds like good advice.
Shit, really? I missed that
Yeah if you wait a certain amount of time she will bust you out, instead of you running into her later in the prison.
Sega, always ahead of its time. :bow
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Nope, as long as they're well-designed and written.
And maybe with minimal clothing
The Sarkeesianrchy did this.
this thread seems pretty trolly to me, but I'll respond regardless.
I don't like or dislike helpless women. I like good games and good stories. I don't need all this baggage. Maybe a game is good that happens to have a woman tied up on the railroad tracks. Maybe a game is good where the woman makes more money than me then bests me at physical combat as well. I don't care, I personally don't have any hyper sensitivity to things like this in games.
And just for the record, I've never really considered Zelda to be weak or helpless.
Peach, I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter in Peach's case because I've never taken the Mario games stories in any way seriously. It's just kind of cute nonsense not to be taken seriously.
I don't like or dislike helpless women. I like good games and good stories. I don't need all this baggage. Maybe a game is good that happens to have a woman tied up on the railroad tracks. Maybe a game is good where the woman makes more money than me then bests me at physical combat as well. I don't care, I personally don't have any hyper sensitivity to things like this in games.
And just for the record, I've never really considered Zelda to be weak or helpless.
Peach, I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter in Peach's case because I've never taken the Mario games stories in any way seriously. It's just kind of cute nonsense not to be taken seriously.
Riposte
Member
For fitting in certain cultures/religions/political identities, yes.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know about "helpless," but I think a lot of people do enjoy a good rescue story.
It's the current hot topic in the western (mostly US-based) hipster gaming media/internet personality scene.
It's the current hot topic in the western (mostly US-based) hipster gaming media/internet personality scene.
Trope is such an irritating word.
Like, if someone doesn't have any legit reason, they'll all go "... But it's a trope!". I don't see why I should hate helping helpless woman or why I should love it. I don't really care. I don't overthink about it like those feminist freq videos.
It's part of the game's concept and if it's a good game, I don't really mind if I have to save a helpless woman. I don't even mind if I have to shoot innocent people (like the no russian in MW). Is it controversial? Sure, but I just want to have fun and experience things and I view everything as part of the view the game is trying to give me. I'm playing a videogame... This is not real life.
These days, people seem to complain about tropes everywhere. They usually don't even care if the game will actually improve or not, they just want their view forced into the game. Will Mario be a better game if he doesn't have to save a princess? No. Will the game be bad? No. It doesn't change anything. It's just part of nintendo's concept. The game sells millions, so why should they change it? They make the games so they make the rules imho. Enough people seem to like it.
Should devs just say "fuck it?" and do their own thing and not give a crap about the consumer? Of course not, but tropes and violence sure as hell aint the problem in the gaming industry. I think it's stupid everyone is complaining about some tits here and there and helpless woman, while there are other problems that could be fixed in this industry. I still think the reaction about the Dead Island Riptide (tits statue) and the titty wizard in Dragon's Crown are a bit silly. I don't see people bitching about Jessica Nigri. Everyone adores her, while she damn well knows why people like her and she uses it to her full advantage. But nobody complains about that eh...
This doesn't mean I'm not open to "strong women" in videogames. If it works, it works. But I don't want to see it forced in without a legit reason beyond "it's a trope". There has to be a reason, it has to fit. Else it would be like those forces meme's in some games: horrible and pandering.
Like, if someone doesn't have any legit reason, they'll all go "... But it's a trope!". I don't see why I should hate helping helpless woman or why I should love it. I don't really care. I don't overthink about it like those feminist freq videos.
It's part of the game's concept and if it's a good game, I don't really mind if I have to save a helpless woman. I don't even mind if I have to shoot innocent people (like the no russian in MW). Is it controversial? Sure, but I just want to have fun and experience things and I view everything as part of the view the game is trying to give me. I'm playing a videogame... This is not real life.
These days, people seem to complain about tropes everywhere. They usually don't even care if the game will actually improve or not, they just want their view forced into the game. Will Mario be a better game if he doesn't have to save a princess? No. Will the game be bad? No. It doesn't change anything. It's just part of nintendo's concept. The game sells millions, so why should they change it? They make the games so they make the rules imho. Enough people seem to like it.
Should devs just say "fuck it?" and do their own thing and not give a crap about the consumer? Of course not, but tropes and violence sure as hell aint the problem in the gaming industry. I think it's stupid everyone is complaining about some tits here and there and helpless woman, while there are other problems that could be fixed in this industry. I still think the reaction about the Dead Island Riptide (tits statue) and the titty wizard in Dragon's Crown are a bit silly. I don't see people bitching about Jessica Nigri. Everyone adores her, while she damn well knows why people like her and she uses it to her full advantage. But nobody complains about that eh...
This doesn't mean I'm not open to "strong women" in videogames. If it works, it works. But I don't want to see it forced in without a legit reason beyond "it's a trope". There has to be a reason, it has to fit. Else it would be like those forces meme's in some games: horrible and pandering.
Tesseract
Banned
i am a student of great lord biff george costanza, ignoble savage and ruler of opposites.
I myself am female and am currently enjoying the hell out of soul sacrifice. One of my Ai npc's has a tendency to die easily or get herself swamped by trash mobs while me and the other ai are busy killing the boss. I bring her along all the damn time even when she's not got the best skills for the fight or I know the boss will be really hard and I have stronger ai partners.
There's something about the combo of soft voice + nervous insistence that she'll be okay when she takes a heavy hit that just appeals to me. It feels like an accomplishment when I can get the whole team through a fight with no deaths and I will willingly take some unnecessary damage to avoid this specific ai getting hurt.
I once accidentally upset them and caused them to leave the party. The action that did this opened up extra quests for me but nope I used the sort of in game 'fix this' currency to get her back and was like guess I'll do those extra quests next run through.
I genuinely care about Ashala even though she is often a hindrance, sometimes women like to be protective leaders too.
*Admittedly there is a youngish male AI npc I am super protective of as well because his sidestory storyline gave me all the feels. So it might just be that I have a softspot for weak or broken chars who seem to need the extra care.
There's something about the combo of soft voice + nervous insistence that she'll be okay when she takes a heavy hit that just appeals to me. It feels like an accomplishment when I can get the whole team through a fight with no deaths and I will willingly take some unnecessary damage to avoid this specific ai getting hurt.
I once accidentally upset them and caused them to leave the party. The action that did this opened up extra quests for me but nope I used the sort of in game 'fix this' currency to get her back and was like guess I'll do those extra quests next run through.
I genuinely care about Ashala even though she is often a hindrance, sometimes women like to be protective leaders too.
*Admittedly there is a youngish male AI npc I am super protective of as well because his sidestory storyline gave me all the feels. So it might just be that I have a softspot for weak or broken chars who seem to need the extra care.
polyh3dron
Banned
nope I prefer the man with boobs and mrs male character tropes personally.
i wouldn't mind them mixing in a bit of manic pixie dream girl while they're at it.
i wouldn't mind them mixing in a bit of manic pixie dream girl while they're at it.
Necromanti
Member
I've wanted to play as Zelda in her own game since like, forever. Light magic, goddess powers, bow, Sheik...she has so much potential, too.
SuperAngelo64
Banned
Yep. Sorry, folks.
King Tubby
Member
I usually make a female character when I play Demon or Dark Souls so I guess I do.
triplestation
Member
i never seen a game where the girl is on a journey trying to save the guy
KittenMaster
Member
I am guessing the reason characters like this still exist is so that they can place an attractive and approachable girl to interact with the male lead in a scenario that's otherwise too extraordinary to have place for her. It's one of those things that's just often given to the player by developer choice rather than something players ask for.
Mario games still have Peach getting kidnapped because, well, it just does out of pure stubbornness. It's pretty much a parody of itself now. I can see Nintendo throwing a wrench in the repetition at some point though, because nobody really had any problem with it until now.
On the man with boobs thing, I think such a criticism is extremely limiting and will just make people afraid of designing female characters with the proper physique, skills, tools, and character needed to be a great hero. I think people's problems are when they're poorly executed counter parts of what are crappy male characters to begin with.
Mario games still have Peach getting kidnapped because, well, it just does out of pure stubbornness. It's pretty much a parody of itself now. I can see Nintendo throwing a wrench in the repetition at some point though, because nobody really had any problem with it until now.
On the man with boobs thing, I think such a criticism is extremely limiting and will just make people afraid of designing female characters with the proper physique, skills, tools, and character needed to be a great hero. I think people's problems are when they're poorly executed counter parts of what are crappy male characters to begin with.
As a man I enjoy saving a female in video games, especially if there's interest hinted at. I like the idea of protecting a woman I have feelings for.
Since having a daughter, I appreciate the protector role even more.
There's nothing wrong with a man wanting to protect a woman.
Since having a daughter, I appreciate the protector role even more.
There's nothing wrong with a man wanting to protect a woman.
Gintoki313
Banned
I'm kinda mixed.
When I say this I mean I don't want them to be too helpless, but I don't want them to be to tough. I feel the same way about male characters though. I hate seeing G.I. Joe men and women in my videogames where the only thing they say are cheesy killing lines and have overly big muscles. So I like their to be a mix of times when they aren't the strongest, and times when they feel weak. In other words I don't like the character to be too weak or too strong, just in the middle.
Some good female examples that I like are Yuffie, Pascal (Tales of Graces F), Judith (Tales of Vesperia best example), and Chie Satonaka.
When I say this I mean I don't want them to be too helpless, but I don't want them to be to tough. I feel the same way about male characters though. I hate seeing G.I. Joe men and women in my videogames where the only thing they say are cheesy killing lines and have overly big muscles. So I like their to be a mix of times when they aren't the strongest, and times when they feel weak. In other words I don't like the character to be too weak or too strong, just in the middle.
Some good female examples that I like are Yuffie, Pascal (Tales of Graces F), Judith (Tales of Vesperia best example), and Chie Satonaka.
palpabl_purpura
Member
Sexism. People need to talk about sexism. For real.
Not a game
Not a game
Not a game
Not a game
Not these games that we play every day like it's our last. .
Let's talk about sexism.
When you learn to break the game that doesn't apply though.
This please.
It has become GAF's word of the week seemingly every week of the month. It's really become overused and tried.
As for the OP's question, I like both types of women in video games as long as the developers don't exaggerate their helplessness or bravado.
Iron Man getting rescued was the coolest part of the game. But yeah, capable female characters are more interesting. If I have to help them sometimes, fine, but I don't care about someone who spends a whole game out of my sight being chained up in a dungeon. You need to at least have them do something first, like get captured while saving me, or something.
Or just change the meaning of the word.
"Oh man I just took the biggest trope, I think the toilet is blocked"
Sounds more natural.
TheRedSnifit
Member
People say this a lot, but they tend to have trouble explaining exactly what this "middle ground" is like.
Trent Strong
Banned
Nintedno is about the only company that still uses this trope. Play more western games OP, they usually have strong women characters.
If done well, I don't mind. First game that comes to mind that does the 'damsel in distress' in a good way is Ico. Other than that, honestly can't think of others (I'm sure there are).
I still do prefer female that are not helpless in games, which is one of the things I love about the MGS games. Plenty of strong female characters.
I still do prefer female that are not helpless in games, which is one of the things I love about the MGS games. Plenty of strong female characters.
rosaceadude2112
Member
i only like any work of fiction i can jerk my hog to as well
How do you not notice what happens with the storyline in the game you're playing? How does a character being fictional some how automatically make you not notice?
I wish I could have not noticed when Elise kissed Sonic in 2006, it being fictional should have just made my mind blank there.
I wish I could have not noticed when Elise kissed Sonic in 2006, it being fictional should have just made my mind blank there.
rohlfinator
Member
Yup. I recently played through NSMB 2 and for whatever reason they had to remind me that Peach was kidnapped at every. fucking. turn. "HEY THE PRINCESS IS KIDNAPPED! YOU KNOW LIKE IN MARIO GAMES"
It's just a horribly blatant play for nostalgia, except I can't imagine that anyone actually holds any nostalgia for that single lame plot device. It's a shame because the game is otherwise pretty fun, but the trappings are so very very played out.
My favorite female video game characters just off the top of my head from recent years.
Chie Satonaka - Motherfucker will knock you out.
Bonnie from Red Dead - Not as bad ass as a guy like John Marston but certainly not helpless. (she gets into a helpless situation, but anyone could have been put in that situation)
Liara Tsoni - Trapped when you first meet her but for the rest of 3 games she is never helpless in my eyes.
Elena from Uncharted - Not an unrealisticly overpowered super soldier like Drake but def not helpless.
Female Shephard from Mass Effect - Basically the exact opposite of helpless....until space magic ending.
Chie Satonaka - Motherfucker will knock you out.
Bonnie from Red Dead - Not as bad ass as a guy like John Marston but certainly not helpless. (she gets into a helpless situation, but anyone could have been put in that situation)
Liara Tsoni - Trapped when you first meet her but for the rest of 3 games she is never helpless in my eyes.
Elena from Uncharted - Not an unrealisticly overpowered super soldier like Drake but def not helpless.
Female Shephard from Mass Effect - Basically the exact opposite of helpless....until space magic ending.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I've never fully understood the logic behind the man with boobs thing. I'm guessing some people don't like it when females don't express stereotypical traits/features.
I remember a quote where someone was asking a writer why a female he wrote was so good.
His answer was something like "I wrote her as a person". That's why statements like that annoy me, since it seems people who say stuff like that consider the character as a stereotype first before a person. And when they see a character not exhibit these traits/features associated with the stereotype they accuse them of being "false" hence the man with boobs thing. At least that's the only way I can understand it that makes sense.
As for the original topic, that kind of thing isn't a bullet point for me.
I remember a quote where someone was asking a writer why a female he wrote was so good.
His answer was something like "I wrote her as a person". That's why statements like that annoy me, since it seems people who say stuff like that consider the character as a stereotype first before a person. And when they see a character not exhibit these traits/features associated with the stereotype they accuse them of being "false" hence the man with boobs thing. At least that's the only way I can understand it that makes sense.
As for the original topic, that kind of thing isn't a bullet point for me.