Yeah, because that 1% of CPU utilization makes a difference ... Compute is good, but You need sacrifice graphics rendering. As i said before, as next-gen progresses games will lose quality in graphics [more baked stuff, lower precision, higher lods, IQ drop etc] and will increase compute utilization to make games stand out in different way.
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Do you consider next gen CPU power to be underwhelming?
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Yeah, because that 1% of CPU utilization makes a difference ... Compute is good, but You need sacrifice graphics rendering. As i said before, as next-gen progresses games will lose quality in graphics [more baked stuff, lower precision, higher lods, IQ drop etc] and will increase compute utilization to make games stand out in different way.
Indeed, and my point being that the Cell would fare even worse.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
Okay, so the OP overreacted without any reasonable need for an over-powered processor. Leaving the thread much more reassured.
We can always revisit this thread when the next gen software rolls out.
Eh. PS4 is almost 2TFlops. If priced right that's good enough for lots of people.
Ghz is pretty meaningless gauge bar these days. And your I7 probably is 4 core, not 8 core.
Given how expensive intel CPUs costs these days, I'm pretty sure people will bitch about it if Sony release I7 powered console priced at $899.
IcyRhythms
Member
Console games have big budgets that the PC doesn't often see. Console developers are paid big bucks to make something look the best it can for the hardware they have available to them.
It doesn't matter how weak or powerful the internal parts of these consoles are. Talented developers will make them sing.
It doesn't matter how weak or powerful the internal parts of these consoles are. Talented developers will make them sing.
Well, yes and no. While the PS4/Nextbox are going to be achieve quite a bit more than the 360/PS3, it's pretty reasonable for him to be disappointed that the two nextgen consoles not out yet are going to have a customized netbook/tablet APU.
Using i7 would increase PS4 price by max 50$. Its not about price, it is about power consumption and die size.
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I've updated my post with CELL's SPU data. There is also PPU (25,6 SP and 6,4 DP gflops).
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Hmmm. Won't there be bottlenecks down the road for any piece of electronic? What exactly do you mean matey?
Thug Waffle
Member
Love the boost in RAM, but the jump in CPU quality did not move me.
We hit a bottleneck early with the GPU and RAM this gen.
I wonder if there will be a bottleneck in games pushing advanced physics. That is if compute in the GPU is not up to the task where traditionally a CPU would have done it.
Depends on the metric you look at. Your hilarious assertion that the Cell smoked an i7 relies on that same metric isolation, by the way.
"Orders of magnitude" is a bit generous depending on what metric you're looking at. You simply have to google AMD Bobcat and add approximately 10% to reach each Jaguar core.
Jaguar is certainly better at general purpose tasks than Cell's singular PPE.
In WiiU's case it was about RAM clock speed, not CPU. That's a completely different issue.
Put some faith in console devs, man.
They'll use their super secret voodoo optimisations. Hell, I'm still baffled by some games on the PS3 if you look at the old hardware it has.
The console also needs to be affordable and I'm sure they spent a lot of time talking about what kind of parts they'll use etc etc
They'll use their super secret voodoo optimisations. Hell, I'm still baffled by some games on the PS3 if you look at the old hardware it has.
The console also needs to be affordable and I'm sure they spent a lot of time talking about what kind of parts they'll use etc etc
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Smoker, you're not making much sense.
No, it's not. Maybe you can find isolated cases case where this is true, but it's also possible to find cases where Cell is actually faster than what is going into those consoles. That's not an order of magnitude difference on average, not by a long shot.
Also, DP Flops are not SP Flops. Just FYI.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Is the CPU more or less powerful than the CPU in either the 360 or PS3?
If more: no.
If less: still no.
If more: no.
If less: still no.
It's may be an order of magnitude difference where it counts. Where CELL and Xenon were better, these modern GPUs destroy them.
I think he's saying that by the metrics some people are using to say the Cell is still more powerful, the Cell would beat even a Core i7, which it sure as fuck doesn't in real world general performance, it just beats it in theoreticals. So theoreticals aren't everything, I'm guessing is his point.
The cell PPE is the cpu. The CU are spu in the PS4/720. Take the PPE performance and any way you look at it... the cpu in the next gen consoles are order of magnitude more powerful. If you want to compare cell + rsx with the APU in the ps4 its just blows it out the water.
This doesn't even factor in the out of order and modern design.
yeah...
"Jaguar seems to be a really big improvement over Bobcat. It has slightly reduced power consumption... and still AMD has managed to double the core count, double the total L2 cache size, improve clocks by 10%, improve general x86 IPC by 15% and vector IPC by 100%.
If my math is correct, we should see around 2.53x (2.0*1.10*1.15) performance in generic (four thread) x86 software and around 5.06x (previous * 2.0) performance in vector processing (integer/float) compared to Bobcat. Not bad at all "
Ghz is not even close to meaning less, it is how many pulses go through the processor each second.
It can be directly compared between CPUs that are the same other than clock speed.
An i7 can beat even AMD's fastest 8 core CPUs, nothing good about having low per a thread performance.
MrCunningham
Member
I'm glad that I am not the only one that can't unsee the Dana Carvey comparison.
I'm not bashing Mark Cerney, he's probably the best thing to happen to the PS4 development team... but the resemblance...
Why wait?
Is it boring? Yeah, its an x86 CPU which means everyone has a firm handle on the power since its easy to compare to mainstream PC CPUs. The last exotic CPU we had was the Cell, while great it cost a ton and was a commercial failure since no other noteworthy products came about. Which means putting money into it is a likely dead end that a struggling company like Sony couldn't risk taking.
Only choice was to go x86 and while the 8 core AMD cpu is as powerful as a current mobile Intel dual core CPU it fits a need. The TDP is right, the price is right, and the company is right. AMD is the only company that could of made this product. Intel doesn't have the GPU know how and Nvidia has the opposite problem.
The cheaper CPU allows more money to go into the GPU. MS did the same thing with the 360 CPU/GPU and it provided great results. The PS4 is one that will perform much greater than the sum of its parts. It allows the powerful GPU to do more things which minimizes the need for more power in the CPU. From everything written it seems like a very efficient piece of equipment. The thing is consoles have to make compromises that most custom PCs don't have to and I like the way Sony addressed it.
Only choice was to go x86 and while the 8 core AMD cpu is as powerful as a current mobile Intel dual core CPU it fits a need. The TDP is right, the price is right, and the company is right. AMD is the only company that could of made this product. Intel doesn't have the GPU know how and Nvidia has the opposite problem.
The cheaper CPU allows more money to go into the GPU. MS did the same thing with the 360 CPU/GPU and it provided great results. The PS4 is one that will perform much greater than the sum of its parts. It allows the powerful GPU to do more things which minimizes the need for more power in the CPU. From everything written it seems like a very efficient piece of equipment. The thing is consoles have to make compromises that most custom PCs don't have to and I like the way Sony addressed it.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
Because it makes more sense to spend your silicon budget and resources on a GPU these days because it can do compute + rendering.
They've designed these next-gen systems so that each piece of silicon has a dedicated task, which frees up a tremendous amount of resources on the CPU to churn through code that it was primarily designed for.
60+% of the CELL tasks were to aid in rendering, which isn't necessary anymore and was a bad, inefficient design that lead to a lot of headaches.
Pimpbaa
Slop Inspector
Almost every developer should have no problem getting the most out of the next gen system CPUs. Whereas only a few did with Cell. Going to be so much easier for programmers who got their start on PCs too, due to the CPUs being x86. Might take a while for some to get the hang of the specialized stuff in the PS4 (and I guess the 720) however.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
And blindly speculate about what could have been better if there were a different CPU involved? What's the point?
How much more powerful was the Cell than the 360 CPU?
Did that lead to a proportional advantage in graphics and physics/AI? (No.)
Did it cripple multiplatform games on the PS3? (Yes.)
These are the questions that might be useful in projecting about an alternate Cell-based future.
Because we can.
It's not like AMD is going to even match their desktop CPUs, which are years behind Intel.
Bloated OS? We're not talking about gaming with a Pentium4 while having flash ads all over a internet browser window on a second monitor. What year is this? OS uses like < 1%.
You're looking at it all wrong things have changed & it's not about having a CPU that has X amount of power & a GPU that has X amount of power it's going to be use X amount for compute & X amount for standard graphical tasks in the end it will be like having one big processor not a weak CPU & strong GPU but a 1.94TFLOPS processor.
x360 Xenon 76.8 GFLOPS
PS3 Cell BE 204.8 GFLOPS with SPU
PS3 PPE only 12.8 glfops
Wii U CPU 15.6 GFLOPS
PS4/720 CPU 102.4 gflops
PS4/720 12.8 GFLOPS PER CORE....
Glfops are also a poor measurement of CPU. If that was the case most game made for the ps360 would not even run on the wiiu.
PS3 Cell BE 204.8 GFLOPS with SPU
PS3 PPE only 12.8 glfops
Wii U CPU 15.6 GFLOPS
PS4/720 CPU 102.4 gflops
PS4/720 12.8 GFLOPS PER CORE....
Glfops are also a poor measurement of CPU. If that was the case most game made for the ps360 would not even run on the wiiu.
In my opinion the CPU is only underwhelming if it prevents a developer from realizing their vision and to my knowledge there was not a single console game this generation that had to be stripped down solely because of CPU power.
So the logical conclusion is that if the CPU is any more powerful than the current generation then we won't have any issues.
So the logical conclusion is that if the CPU is any more powerful than the current generation then we won't have any issues.
There are quite a few, if you're talking vs contemporary PCs and their versions at the time. But where there is a will, there is a way. And that will is making money.
rohlfinator
Member
Only thing that seems weird to me is going with 8 slower cores vs. 4 faster cores. Don't games tend to be not very parallelizable? Seems like that was the common complaint earlier in this generation.
But it should at least get them some good power savings when they're doing low-intensity tasks and can shut down 7 of the cores.
But it should at least get them some good power savings when they're doing low-intensity tasks and can shut down 7 of the cores.
China Dont Care
Banned
Yes, let me turn on my Durango and PS4 to compare them.
Exactly. A downgrade from PS3? Really guys?
yea I don't get this thread either :lol
TheRedSnifit
Member
Tell me in your own words, what does a CPU do?
It's pretty amazing how people expect everything to be upgraded from a previous console. For example, the PS2 had more bandwidth compared to the PS3 for transparencies.
Calculations.
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