-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Does anyone else feel bothered by how anti-police things have gotten online?
- Thread starter airmangataosenai
- Start date
- Status
Messofanego
Banned
That's a ridiculous hypothetical unless if you have proof that a sizable amount of people have said that places (like Baltimore) are better off without police. Maybe better off without corrupt and racist police, but I haven't seen wholesale rejection of police presence here.
Why do you need armoured humvees? Do you know that people got up in arms about that was because it was completely disproportionate to the area those vehicles were situated in? Its overreach of the military industrial complex barging into law enforcement. Total small towns with militarised police going about. It is unnecessary. No, you can't make the comparison with body armour because lots of people have guns and so it makes sense to have body armour. But how many people have RPGs or heavy weapons to take out cars or humvees that they need to be like in the military? We're not dealing with powerfully equipped cartels on a daily basis.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
This is a big part of it, yeah. And it relates to that fucking embarrassment posted earlier in the thread of all those cops with their back to the mayor of NYC. It's hard to have any sort of discussion about good cops vs bad cops when the institution as a whole is tainted by the fact that it actively pushes against culpability of any kind. Whenever a cop does something wrong (like, say, murder an unarmed person), it's the same old story. Blue wall locks up (which includes cops outright lying to protect each other, which is not actually a good thing), union propaganda machine goes into overdrive demonizing the murder victim and anyone who dares criticize the police. It's just a shameful fucking mess.
I think that's unfair. Many people are pro-police but anti-racist and most police officers are overtly bigoted.
However unconscious bias supported by training, peers, and the media has created a dangerous mix.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Is it weird that much of our military, a force trained to actually kill, has better training in deescalation than our police?
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Negative. People are anti-police because too often when they need them they end up killing, maiming, assaulting and abusing the people they are supposed to be protecting.
sure, not everyone has that mindset...but there is a lot of unrealized ignorance flying around.
Darth Karja
Member
Yes they should attempt to. But they have other options then guns. I'm just saying they should have them just in case.
benjipwns
Banned
Do you consider it the duty of police to stop/confront criminals? To what extent do you allow the police to both ignore and condone criminal action before finding them derelict in their duty? If derelict what remedy or punishment do you propose so as to ensure the police perform your agreed upon exchange of authority for their duty?
shanafan
Member
I never said that, and it was never even a thought in my comments.
freeofgreed
Member
Lol so your saying people shouldn't do things like party or protest, which they have every right to do, just so that they won't potentionally incit the police? The fact that you think people have to go to those lengths shows just how fucked up they are.
Black Republican
Member
Just imagine if social media existed back in the 90's with the same cameras on phones.
travisbickle
Member
Police are an authority paid by the government to maintain the status quo. Currently the status quo is keeping mega rich people in power and mega rich. I honestly don't trust people who have no problems with the police.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I know you didn't say that. Nor was it probably in your conscious thought. But that's exactly what the current climate is. Law-abiding minority individuals are harassed, arrested, and killed by police despite not doing anything different from me, a white person.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
It's implicit in your commentary because of how you think police abuse only occurs from making the wrong lifestyle choices. Your argument is coded victim blaming. No one chooses to their skin color and yet that is an overwhelming determiner in how police choose who to abuse.
benjipwns
Banned
Most abuse occurs inside the home because there's fewer consequences.
interactivemonodrama
Banned
Where I live, police is garbage, someone who I know, was wrongfully accused with murder, and rather finding the actual real murderer, they have been trying to get my friend behind bars. It took 3 - 4 years for them to stop, even though there was no actual evidence against him, and the police did every immoral measure in order to get my friend convicted as a fucking murderer. It sucks to be taken from your family, it sucks that you cant provide, it is a fucking bürocratik hell to prove that your innocent, and it fucking costs a shit tons of money.
So they wont get sympathy from me.
So they wont get sympathy from me.
So don't call 911 and deal with the problem yourself.
I'd rather no guns exist but if someone is going to have guns than it may as well be a state sanctioned policing force... however the problem is that the state is rotten to the core with ancient racism and it trickles down to the lowest administrative levels. So you have an armed force with the prerogative to treat black people differently, studies show more violently, with awful training practices added on top of it.
You look at all that and it's no wonder black people keep getting killed by the police.
acheron_xl
Member
I don't trust anyone that actively desires to have authority over other human beings. Police, military, government, mall cops - none of them. My trust in them has to be earned through their actions, and what should be criminal activity undertaken with systemic support is a pretty lousy way to do that.
afternoon delight
Member
So at what point in history have the police not been inept, abusive, and/or corrupt? Because in our area of the world they've been hassling people since the dawn of time.
God forbid we hold folks to basic standards in their work. Too much lead in toothpaste? Make your own. Doctor leaves a watch in your body after surgery? Do it yourself next time.
Between the fact that so many people in the US seem to be absolutely paranoid, and people can get access to weapons so easily, I understand how your police needs guns as well. That said, there's been so many news about police acting in mafia-like ways recently that I can understand the hate. When your whole job is to protect the citizen, causing any harm is already contradicting your first and foremost task... all while being paid by the people that you are hurting, to boot. So yeah...
TheExecutive
Member
I am bothered by it because I hate how generalized the police force gets. However, it's a necessary catalyst for change. Police forces in the U.S. Are too aggressive and too quick to use force. Their very existence sparks escalations when their entire job is to deescalate situations. When you have that level of disparity between purpose and actuality shit needs to change.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
So it's all or nothing?
Police can't be held responsible for their mistakes if people want them to do their fucking job?
TheExecutive
Member
Just going to go out on a limb here and say this is a bad idea...
I'm not anti-doctor so...
Oh you don't like cops robbing, beating, and killing people? Well don't expect them to do their actual job then. Good logic
Lmao, ur right
benjipwns
Banned
In the United States, it's not their job:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
So you only have a problem with police being criticized due to not being held responsible for their actions; for every other occupation it's OK? I'm not understanding your point of view here, are you able to express yourself in an intelligent way using complete sentences and a non-farcical argument?
Gnome Scat
Member
It just annoys me how people jump on the hate train when they have no reason to. Like a white friend of mine who lives in some rural North East town says he doesn't feel safe around police, but in reality he pretty much just doesn't want to get tickets for speeding. There's not a lot of crime up here and the police are very nice, he has nothing to worry about. Yes, we need to reform the police system, but we don't need to hate them all just because it's popular.
This.
Selection bias makes isolated incidents seem common, and help cultivate the view that the police all over the country are psychopaths.
The problem is being in law enforcement is seen as some kind of brave sacrifice not unlike troop worship, and the low bar of entry means everyone knows someone who's an officer, further cementing a defensive reaction when their position in society is criticized.
For example, in upstate NY there's a big #ClintonStrong presence where everyone from this bumfuck town is showing solidarity for their officers. However it's widely known that the prison has a history of prisoner abuse (I've had three CO's talk about it to me personally, two of them bragging) and it's being written about in the NYTimes. If you look at the FB posts on this article, the comments are overwhelmingly "good, we should just gas/hang the prisoners, die scum die"
So you have these kind of people aspiring to be employed as LEO's and CO's, and we wonder why it's rotten down to its core.
For example, in upstate NY there's a big #ClintonStrong presence where everyone from this bumfuck town is showing solidarity for their officers. However it's widely known that the prison has a history of prisoner abuse (I've had three CO's talk about it to me personally, two of them bragging) and it's being written about in the NYTimes. If you look at the FB posts on this article, the comments are overwhelmingly "good, we should just gas/hang the prisoners, die scum die"
So you have these kind of people aspiring to be employed as LEO's and CO's, and we wonder why it's rotten down to its core.
I'd wager anything the vast majority of police activity in this country isn't dirty shit.
But this is a new day. And we can see everything.
If the police departments can't be bothered to not only properly train their officers to behave and perform their jobs adequately, or enforce the law when its broken by the same officers, then due penance.
Sorry, but I'm not. Good luck to the good ones.
But this is a new day. And we can see everything.
If the police departments can't be bothered to not only properly train their officers to behave and perform their jobs adequately, or enforce the law when its broken by the same officers, then due penance.
Sorry, but I'm not. Good luck to the good ones.
Earthpainting
Member
Now imagine if your ethnicity or attire attracts the authorities. This can be for a multitude of reasons, several of which don't even require the cop in question to be directly racist him/herself. Not attracting the cops is a luxury that some people do not have, and that is a big part of the problem. The more people they inspect, the higher the chance they'll have to find something, and these many somethings will add up in a statistic, which in turn will re-affirm the initial practice to begin with. It's a pattern you see a lot in drug enforcement history.
TheExecutive
Member
And this... Unfortunately there is too much to select from regardless of any bias.
Because I have family in the police force in different cities from the west coast and all over Texas. I could tell you this much that none of them have ever broken a law or been under investigation for mistreating citizens. But yeah, all policemen/women are bad. Ok.
Do you lump in every profession in one pile when shit hits fan?
In before #notallpolice
I'm also a minority with Mexican descent that lives in a neighborhood that's 95% white and all the times I've been stopped speeding (yes, I always haul ass) never did I once ever feel for my life or that I would be shot. The police here have treated me kindly and respectfully and obeyed what they said.
AtomskEater
Member
It's a really important discussion that needs to be had. I will never agree that all police officers are racist, or abuse their power. I'm sure there are many good officers, but even they work within a system that is blatantly unfair in many aspects, and can even make life a living hell if they try to speak out against it.
Unfortunately you also don't usually get a pat on the back for doing your job properly, so accounts of police officers who do their jobs without being assholes aren't reported on.
All that said I do see some posts like OP describes, but usually they get called out before long.
Unfortunately you also don't usually get a pat on the back for doing your job properly, so accounts of police officers who do their jobs without being assholes aren't reported on.
All that said I do see some posts like OP describes, but usually they get called out before long.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
And just to be clear since I didn't say so in my previous comments. I do feel safe around the police. I feel that if a crime were taken against me that they would take it seriously and at least make some effort in trying to do justice. I also feel like I can walk the street without the need for personal protection, because if I were murdered people know there would be an investigation. But why do I feel that way? It's because the color of my skin, and my socioeconomic class. I know people of color who aren't being given these same rights. It's not fair they don't get to feel the same way I do. So I'm not 'anti-police'. I'm pro-equality. I want everyone to be given the same feeling of safety I've been granted.
Coriolanus
Banned
If the trade has a history of trying to cover for the bad apples? Why, yes. Of course. Especially if they're public servants and can kill. Scrutiny is heightened quite a bit then, and i'd readily suggest that anyone uncomfortable with that should quit the force.
What are your thoughts on prosecutors who send innocent people to jail or businessmen who routinely bilk unsuspecting people out of their life savings and the companies who cover for them? Do you say all prosecutors are shit and so are businessmen or are you smart enough to think that everyone isn't as shitty as some people?
Random Painted HIghway
Member
The flaw in this viewpoint is the failure to consider the nature and source of the danger/risk as compared to the other professions alluded to and the consequential effect on the officer. By numbers there are other more dangerous professions at least on terms you are considering, but those dangers are created primarily through negligence, either by the victim or others. Danger to police is created by intentional acts by humans. (obviously there are negligence issues with police as well-driving accident fatalities for example). There is a wide gulf between the stress level of needing to be on guard against negligence versus the stress level of being on guard against persons who may seek to do you physical harm.
acheron_xl
Member
You'll have to get the cops to stop resenting the people they're supposed to be protecting first. Not going to get good policing when the police in question see themselves as little more than armed zookeepers.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
First of all, nobody said all police. But with that aside I don't see many stories of prosecutors or businessmen walking the street with loaded weapons ready to go off on the next minority who looked suspicious. And then they're put on paid leave while their fellow prosecutors and businessmen defend them. But yeah, if they started doing that, then I'd probably feel the same about them.
That's certainly not the tone around here.
The problem is, these are not isolated incidents. For every one thread we have a a police officer searching a woman's underparts, there are the thousands of unmade ones regarding police officers forcefully handling and arresting African-American men and women (in addition to multiple other minorities outside of East Asians who appear to have the lowest incarceration rate) for "failure to comply" or fixing evidence on them to ruin their lives with a drug charge and a prison sentence.
These are not isolated incidents when a reputable Chicago investigator is fired for daring to say that police may have to be held responsible for the deaths of 4 citizens out of upwards of 100 killings.
These are not isolated incidents when New York, the city with one of the largest police forces, made a literal blue wall of silence in response to multiple police officers grappling and choke-holding an innocent black man to death.
These are not isolated incidents when the FBI admits that in numerous areas, much of the police force has been invaded by white supremacists who go largely undetected.
These are not isolated incidents when the system makes police officers who see their co-workers doing black-hearted work are unable to speak up for fear of their career, reputation, or even life.
These are not isolated incidents when in every single instance referred to, there is always more than one citizen ready to dismiss it as an "isolated incidence".
I am not one to dismiss every single police officer, but neither will I refer to the majority as upstanding, honest-hearted citizens.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
If that's how you to choose read people's responses then that's your prerogative.
It is.
What I fear is the "othering" or dehumanization of police officers, where we begin to view them broadly as "the bad guys" or "the enemy" and view ourselves as "the good guys."
When I watch Fox News, this is what I object to most; not their specific targets, but their attempts to make Liberals seem like an "other" group, alien and foreign and strange and malignant. The target is mostly inconsequential to me; it is the thought process I object to, and I don't like feeling like I may be falling prey to it myself, whether that target be "police" or "republicans" or "bankers" or whatever other group becomes the collective ire of people who think like me.
When I watch Fox News, this is what I object to most; not their specific targets, but their attempts to make Liberals seem like an "other" group, alien and foreign and strange and malignant. The target is mostly inconsequential to me; it is the thought process I object to, and I don't like feeling like I may be falling prey to it myself, whether that target be "police" or "republicans" or "bankers" or whatever other group becomes the collective ire of people who think like me.
- Status