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[Deified Data]

Police and the institutions that enable their bad behavior have more than earned their criticism. Reform is needed, and many times devil's advocate appeals in polices' defense are unsubtly trying to skirt the issue. No, not all police are corrupt. Most police in general aren't corrupt. Hell, many problem police aren't even what we'd call corrupt, so much as products of a culture that trains them to view the public as the enemy.

That said, what bothers me isn't criticism of police, it's the complete surrender to emotion and sensationalism that drives so much anti-police sentiment, especially on this forum. We've built up an environment here where posting something as innocuous as "I'll wait for more information before coming to a conclusion" is oftentimes labeled as racist dogwhistling when it's nothing more than prudence. We're so eager to jump on the anti-police bandwagon that we rake even justified shootings over the coals. In matters as serious as these, we should never give either party the benefit of the doubt, but if the injured party is a minority it's granted without an ounce of skepticism. I steer clear of any thread involving police not because I want to avoid the unpleasantness, but because I know there's no discussion to be had - just universal agreement that the shooting was unjustified, and to what extent the cop is culpable.

 

[dabig2]

I wouldn't say all GAFfers want the police to disappear (I'm sure some of them do), it's more an outlash and expression of malcontent with the current state of things. People get very emotional about this stuff because it affects them directly.

The message I'm getting is 'this needs to change', not 'the police should disappear'. The day you see that sentiment become mainstream is the day riots erupt all over the country.

Exactly. Acknowledge, apologize, and reform. Simple things that we request to happen. Last one isn't going to happen or be meaningful without the first 2. I think issues abound with others on the first point particularly. Because the mere acknowledging that the entire system is corrupt and that it's not just a few bad apples here or there with shitty training seems to be a really big sticking point for some reason.

 

[deathrowrecords]

Smh people are thinking this is a us exclusive. The mentality of the police is rotten almost everywhere. What do u think all those right conservative governments are doing in the eu?
Give them more money, weapons, rights,coverups,....and this is what causes the police to feel invincible and above the law.
The problem is if the people only do peaceful protests nothing will change.
Changes will require violence and the police will need to be brought down to its knees.
have people point a gun in THEIR unarmed face and play with them for a bit..make the people destroy their lives for a "crime" they commited.
Let the people be the judge when they shoot another helpless black man...we ll see how big they feel then.
A police officer should be punished 100 times as hard as any normal citizen for the same crime

 

[Squalor]

The laws and policies that affect police officers are the bigger problem, not the people who have to work to apply them.

It's easily both.

 

[Mr. X]

Why should it not be? It's a horrible situation, it should make everyone uncomfortable. Every other day seems like unethical or highly questionable behavior from cops somewhere in the US is in the news.

 

[DoktorEvil]

It's easily both.

Notice I said Bigger.

Citizens outnumber most uniformed officers significantly.

In NYC, for all of the 40,000 Police Officers active, there are 8.4 Million people who live in NYC, 19 Million in NY.

Citizens have the voting power to change the majority of laws by voting in representatives who aren't so hawkish on protecting Police power and their union. I know I'd like to see fewer officers in military gear, not more.

 

[BajiBoxer]

It's disturbing in that the police are an important part of rule of law which keeps society functioning as it should. When they lose that respect as law enforcement officers things get real bad and you have a feedback loop that goes south really fast. It's why bad police behaviour and its defence by just about every police organization out there is much more damaging then any other common criminal.

Police are supposed to protect and serve, but too often they don't fill those roles. For example, one major problem with the police I see more clearly now (thanks too a couple articles I've seen posted at GAF and elsewhere) is that too often they are used as a revenue generating entity. Politicians use them to make up for poor economic policy to fill the coffers, or fill the pockets of private prison owners. There's a lot broken about our police. The extremely poor training and hiring standards many departments have also exacerbate the problem. You get a bunch of idiots thinking they're heroes because they wear the uniform, when they're just half trained armed employees working towards profit generation. (sounds like a typical organized crime set up to me!). Too many municipal departments seem to work in this manner.

 

[Patrol]

It is definitely one of the topics where civility is commonly tossed aside, justified as righteous anger or what have you. Unfortunately, we see a lot of widespread generalization and especially hyperbolic mantra get presented.

 

[Squalor]

Notice I said Bigger.

Citizens outnumber most uniformed officers significantly.

In NYC, for all of the 40,000 Police Officers active, there are 8.4 Million people who live in NYC, 19 Million in NY.

Citizens have the voting power to change the majority of laws by voting in representatives who aren't so hawkish on Police power. I know I'd like to see fewer officers in military gear, not more.

I did, and it's still wrong. They're tantamount.

The bad cops aren't going to change just because they have to wear body cameras or just because they have less protection from their unions, which is actually a bigger issue than the "laws." The laws aren't technically different.

The "voting" thing would be nice if people who were sick of cops abusing their power, then hiding behind their thick blue line weren't in the minority.

 

[benjipwns]

It is definitely one of the topics where civility is commonly tossed aside, justified as righteous anger or what have you. Unfortunately, we see a lot of widespread generalization and especially hyperbolic mantra get presented.

Here's the thing, police are police willingly. They're also placed in a position of authority regarding the use of violence "legitimately."

And they generally appear to face no consequences other than mean things being said.

It's not comparable to many other groups that fairly or unfairly get lumped together and bashed here, there or anywhere.

 

[User 406]

Yeah, just keep focusing on what's wrong with everyone except the people who are committing state sanctioned murder and civil rights violations. That'll definitely help.

If anything, we should be upset at just how much pro-police online rhetoric exists. With every new incident of police abuse, huge numbers of people post their delight that cops are continuing to systematically persecute black people. Painting this as some kind of situation where the whole internet is picking on the poor beleaguered police is disingenuous in the extreme. U.S. police enforcement of white supremacy has massive support from those who benefit from it, and it's what allows these abuses to go completely unpunished.

 

[IISANDERII]

That is irrelevant. Part of this is confirmation biases clouding sound judgment.

Part of it is the anti cop sentiment echoed online.

I had to learn to deal with seeing that Uniform and the people that wear it as nothing more than glorified State babysitters who can kill me at any moment, so don't rattle up someone with a badge if you don't have to. They are State actors, so they are only as good as the laws that govern them.

The laws and policies that affect police officers are the bigger problem, not the people who have to work to apply them.

I agree. The corruption at the top flows downwards and each transgression not punished condones and encourages it.

 

[commedieu]

Nope. They've been anti me for decades. Good police aren't part of the discussion, like my father. Because they arent the ones behind the corrupt justice system.

You all let this happen to us. Pretended not to notice, and now with video still nothing. It should bother you that its come to this point for your fellow citizens.

Instead, well.. there it is.

 

[The Albatross]

I'm not bothered by it, but Gaf OT has more articles about cops doing something, usually bad, than any other topic, and every story seemingly gets a thread and usually gets a thread before the facts are known. The threads also universally all begin by suggesting that cops are abusing power, and when evidence comes out suggesting that -- maybe -- this case wasn't an abuse of power but cops doing their job, the OP is never updated, the title is never updated, and the impression seems "oh, just another cop abusing power." When facts are brought up pages and pages later, the OP will defend himself "Oh, the facts weren't known when I created this, and I just took the initial news report." Okay, well stop treating NeoGaf.com like your personal fame news repository, because it isn't.

An example of this was a thread 2 months ago where a hammer wielding mad man was attacking people in New York City, and an NYC cop shot the man while he was attacking someone. The man had already hospitalized a number of victims, but the title was something like "NYT: NYC Cop Shoots Man," or something, which wasn't even the NYT article title (which was something more like "NYC Cop Shoots Hammer Wielding Man."). The first page had a smattering of posts that are typical assumptions of an abuse of power and then other posts that are like "Thread title should be: Officer saves people's lives." But the title is the title, and when people are scanning thread titles that's what they see, not the full story.

Now, I don't think that people shouldn't bring up police abuse because police abuse is real and there are serious problems with police forces in the US (and abroad). But, NeoGaf is not a news service and the software of the website is not setup to be a news service. We can't update thread titles as more information comes in (mods can, but only by request or when one feels they should). OPs have no pressure or responsibility to update the original post with more accurate information, or two sides of a story, and many OPs defend their initial innaccurate thread title by saying "well that's all we knew at the time, that a cop shot a man." When the NYT publishes a story "Man shot by cop," they can update it immediately when more information comes in, and they do because they have a journalistic motivation to report impartial news. NeoGaf threads and the people who post them do not do that, so it typically spreads misinformation.

 

[Strangelove77]

I'm not a white male, so no. Im not bothered by this. They earned it. Several times over.

Must be nice to be able to murder or beat the shit out of people and get paid leave for it.

 

[OceanBlue]

It doesn't help for me that, in the huge majority of cases that a cop (or former cop in most cases) goes on NPR or BBC radio, they go straight to either victim blaming ("If he wasn't doing X he wouldn't have put himself in danger.") or outright character assassination ("The only people who have issues with the police are thugs and criminals."). I'm not joking about the last quote either. I heard someone saying something like that as I was driving home two days ago on the BBC World News.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I did, and it's still wrong. They're tantamount.

The bad cops aren't going to change just because they have to wear body cameras or just because they have less protection from their unions, which is actually a bigger issue than the "laws." The laws aren't technically different.

The "voting" thing would be nice if people who were sick of cops abusing their power, then hiding behind their thick blue line weren't in the minority.

I can't hold individuals responsible for piss poor training and piss poor employment screening. If the cadet academy is focusing more on how to fire a gun and less of de-escalating conflict, then the training is the biggest problem.

The Badge does draw some dumb ass people who can't see the bigger picture, like Darren Wilson, but the process for becoming a Police Officer should screen those people out. I don't want High School kids becoming police officers, period.

The people that vote for politicians like Bill De Blasio also vote for his power to appoint a police commissioner, who is ultimately the person that sets police policy.

Now, there are communities filled with POC ex cons who have lost the right to vote and actually make a change on these issues. If there is a way to protect a US citizens right to vote post incarceration, I will do that happily.

It's not a good cop vs bad cop issue, it's a huge power inbalance between the police and the communities they serve.

I agree. The corruption at the top flows downwards and each transgression not punished condones and encourages it.

Especially with people like William Bratton, who has a reputation for being more a politician than less of a civil servant, the corruption is indeed encouraged for the supposed protection of the city.

 

[Banana Aeon]

As a black man, I have always been uncomfortable around the police. I have been harassed by police unprovoked in the past. It's nothing new hearing about all of these abuses of power recently.

I can't be bothered with the anti police movement, because it's finally acknowledgement that something is wrong, and that something needs to change.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

Policing has always been a massively corrupt, rasict, abusive, profession, like law more generally, it's just that now we have more cameras to document it and faster communications to talk about it.

To the OP and others who see little wrong with the state of policing in the US, are you for or against bodycams?

 

[benjipwns]

but the process for becoming a Police Officer should screen those people out. I don't want High School kids becoming police officers, period.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqvijdxnHxI

 

[Squalor]

I can't hold individuals responsible for piss poor training and piss poor employment screening. If the cadet academy is focusing more on how to fire a gun and less of de-escalating conflict, then the training is the biggest problem.

The Badge does draw some dumb ass people who can't see the bigger picture, like Darren Wilson, but the process for becoming a Police Officer should screen those people out. I don't want High School kids becoming police officers, period.

The people that vote for politicians like Bill De Blasio also vote for his power to appoint a police commissioner, who is ultimately the person that sets police policy.

Now, there are communities filled with POC ex cons who have lost the right to vote and actually make a change on these issues. If there is a way to protect a US citizens right to vote post incarceration, I will do that happily.

It's not a good cop vs bad cop issue, it's a huge power inbalance between the police and the communities they serve.

Yes, there is a problem with the training, monitoring, and policing of police, but to mostly disregard personal responsibility is ridiculous to me.

 

[Kinitari]

Policing has always been a massively corrupt, rasict, abusive, profession, like law more generally, it's just that now we have more cameras to document it and faster communications to talk about it.

To the OP and others who see little wrong with the state of policing in the US, are you for or against bodycams?

I think the bolded is the problem a lot of us are talking about. The op has said he sees a lot wrong with the state of policing in the US. He's not saying there shouldn't be legitimate criticism. I have been banging on the drum of body cams for a while myself. I don't think anyone in this thread has said the Police in the US are fine the way they are.

 

[blackwash]

The criticism and contempt is justified.

Absolutely.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Where im from it would have been nice to get along with the police, but they had no intention of getting along with me. Now im in a different place and I see a mixed bag of good and bad done to others.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

To get more specific, people wonder why the "wait for the facts" people are always bashed, despite the need for objectivity.

What those people ignore is the argument towards authority and why that leads to problems in this topic. It's always used in cases like this, but the problem is the authorities and the perps are actually working within the same system.

So we've had numerous cases where the cops have lied, failed to obtain evidence, done everything they can to muck up a case, and get away with it because they are in positions of authority and the other positions work with them.

And then there's most of the media, who have only just started questioning the testimonials of cops and law enforcement because we had a few cases where it was crystal clear that the cops lied for each other (see Walter Scott for instance).

That's why there's that extra hostility.

 

[benjipwns]

I think we should wait for the facts about waiting for facts before we decide on whether or not we should wait for the facts.

 

[JDSN]

Im brown, so I actually have little care for hurt feelings when the institution is killing people in the street and getting away with it.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

You think this is recent?

Shits been rotten since Rodney king and before that! Blacks have been unfairly treated by law enforcement for a long time. Then factor in the militarization and "blue shield" of the police force and you got a recipe for distrust and anger.

It's not that the U.S. Doesn't need cops, they need better cops i.e. those who aren't trigger happy, power tripping nut jobs.

Protect and serve, not terrorize and oppress

I believe it's because the OP thinks this is recent is why they are bothered by it. If Eric Garner was the first eye-opener for someone, then I'd have to wonder where were they for their entire life that they never heard of people's experiences with police brutality?

 

[Affeinvasion]

My friend went to a mandatory safety briefing for professors on a college campus at the university police station. They were told not to believe the media because they have it out for cops. Also (and I'm not making this up) their picture of the president in the office was still George W. Bush.

 

[Bloodrage]

No. Blame the departments for hiring the wrong guys for the job and not making an example out of them when acts of corruption and racism are committed.

 

[TimorousPanda]

I can understand why some don't want police officers to have guns, but why do some not want officers to wear body armor?

 

[ThusZarathustra]

I think the bolded is the problem a lot of us are talking about. The op has said he sees a lot wrong with the state of policing in the US. He's not saying there shouldn't be legitimate criticism. I have been banging on the drum of body cams for a while myself. I don't think anyone in this thread has said the Police in the US are fine the way they are.

I'm not so sure he really does see much of a problem. Or is at least vastly misapprehending its scale, considering he and others of the same thought process (ie think of the poor officers!) object to much of the honest dialog and discussion that slowly leads to change.

 

[Kinitari]

I'm not so sure he really does see much of a problem. Or at least vastly misapprehending its scale, considering he and others of the same thought process (think of the poor officers!) object to much of the honest dialog and discussion that slowly leads to change.

Where does he object to the honest dialog? I made a post about this, but I worry some people here are being too eager to jump to these sorts of narratives, that anyone who doesn't say exactly what I think is right is either naive or secretly racist.

 

[wildfire]

Live a lifestyle that won't attract the police, and you should be pretty much OK with everything.

Nonsense. I know more white people who are thieves and drug users than black people.

Hint, it's always been terrible.

Nah. Not always. I was given a warning for running a red light. I can call cops to my home and not feel like I might get shot.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

Where does he object to the honest dialog?

I'm being generous in my phrasing.

Most of the dialog isn't, well, nice.

But the anti-police sentiments being expressed which frighten him and others are all honest.

 

[Kinitari]

I'm being generous in my phrasing.

Most of the dialog isn't, well, nice.

But the anti-police sentiments being expressed which frighten him and others are all honest.

So I think what he objects to, is dialog that is not based on reality, or dialog that suffers from the sort of negative generalization (othering) that makes him critical of the Police force in the US in the first place. If one of the major reasons that he objects to the conduct of the Police in the US is that they make sweeping generalizations that lead to the dehumanization of a subset of fellow citizens, then it's sensible that the same behavior from people and groups that he wants to support would make him uncomfortable. And if argue that he's justified in this, maybe I'm just speaking through him, but that's how I feel.

 

[HK-47]

I think we should wait for the facts about waiting for facts before we decide on whether or not we should wait for the facts.

I'm waiting for the facts on this post.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

So I think what he objects to, is dialog that is not based on reality, or dialog that suffers from the sort of negative generalization (othering) that makes him critical of the Police force in the US in the first place. If one of the major reasons that he objects to the conduct of the Police in the US is that they make sweeping generalizations that lead to the dehumanization of a subset of fellow citizens, then it's sensible that the same behavior from people and groups that he wants to support would make him uncomfortable. And if argue that he's justified in this, maybe I'm just speaking through him, but that's how I feel.

For sure, it's just that he and others just seem more concerned about the negative generalizations done by people with no power than those with it, which makes me question how much of a problem he has with the situation. When you seem more concerned about officers getting a fair shake than the citizens they protect and serve getting one, folks are going to question why.

 

[Kinitari]

For sure, it's just that he and others just seem more concerned about the negative generalizations done by people with no power than those with it, which makes me question how much of a problem he has with the situation. When you seem more concerned about officers getting a fair shake than the citizens they protect and serve getting one, folks are going to question why.

And I see that, I see that people when challenged by others who claim to be allies, are wary. For example here you're saying he seems more concerned about negative generalizations of one group over the other - but what are you basing this on? Maybe your gut, maybe this OP has made a lot of threads like this in the past, who knows, you might have other insight I am not privy too.

But let's say that he is more concerned about negative generalizations from the people he supports - consider that maybe, speaking this way isn't a product of subversion, but of wanting the people he supports to be the "good guys". That's often how I feel. I don't like it when ideas and concepts and groups that I hold in high regard start to adopt the sort of practices that I hold in poor regard.

 

[jmood88]

The flaw in this viewpoint is the failure to consider the nature and source of the danger/risk as compared to the other professions alluded to and the consequential effect on the officer. By numbers there are other more dangerous professions at least on terms you are considering, but those dangers are created primarily through negligence, either by the victim or others. Danger to police is created by intentional acts by humans. (obviously there are negligence issues with police as well-driving accident fatalities for example). There is a wide gulf between the stress level of needing to be on guard against negligence versus the stress level of being on guard against persons who may seek to do you physical harm.

There are certainly situations where a police officer could expect that they may have to be on guard but the reason for many of the problems that many non-white people have with the police is that they, whether it's due to poor training, racism, or a combination of both, act like they are fighting an opposing military force instead of what they are actually dealing with: typically petty squabbles or other situations that don't require the militaristic behavior that many police display. What the statistics show is that there is no reason for police departments to be operating as if their officers need constant vigilance to survive.

 

[Omegasquash]

I'm a bit late to respond to the OP but...no. I'm not bothered by it at all. I don't think that anyone really wants a truly non-policed society, but I do think that questioning everything when they are overly hostile and/or killing people isn't some kind of over-reaction.

They need to be held accountable. We pay them. We arm them. We give them the power to make arrests, and wield deadly weaponry.

Many of them are not at all worth the confidence we as a society have placed in them, as evidenced by how much outright murder they commit. We're not talking about a few bad apples. We are talking about a tree that has been cultivated to bear poisonous fruit. And it needs to be cultivated into something else, now.

 

[DragonSworne]

Is it weird that much of our military, a force trained to actually kill, has better training in deescalation than our police?

Our enemies are treated better by our government than black citizens of America.

 

[Piggus]

It's an important discussion, and the police as an institution definitely needs change. That said, the way some people wish harm on every cop no matter who they are is pretty disgusting.

 

[GeekyDad]

Haven't read much anti-police sentiment online, really, just anti-police-abuse sentiment. And the only thing that bothers me is that all the discussion has changed nothing. The abuse seems to be more frequent and more violent and intrusive.

 

[Guevara]

It's gotten pretty silly honestly.

First off, we'll always need an institution like the police in any society. I see a lot of people saying crazy things like "fire all the cops" or "I'd never call the police". The alternatives to a publicly-funded police force are all pretty dystopic.

Second, these institutions will always be imperfect, especially at scale. We can only strive to do better, and I believe we are doing better slowly over time.

Third, humans are really bad at risk-assessment. We have this ridiculous fantasy that dirty cops framing us for suicide in jail is a big threat, when honestly mundane things like traffic accidents and heart decease are both more dangerous too us AND more preventable. Being afraid of the police is the new terrorism, in my opinion. Something extremely unlikely to happen to you, and yet capable of coloring your entire worldview.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

It's an important discussion, and the police as an institution definitely needs change. That said, the way some people wish harm on every cop no matter who they are is pretty disgusting.

Unfortunately, social media/Police centered web sites have shown many LEOs writing "disgusting" comments about a large swath of people..no matter who they are. Dismissing clear police misconduct, because reasons. Problem is, one group is in a position of power. Who's right or wrong here? Who should be feared most?

When we worry more about words from one side rather than the actions or inaction from the other, well..it's why shit is how it is. Had family in law enforcement and the armed forces..I can still criticise when something is wrong. We all should..

 

[wildfire]

It's gotten pretty silly honestly.

First off, we'll always need an institution like the police in any society. I see a lot of people saying crazy things like "fire all the cops" or "I'd never call the police". The alternatives to a publicly-funded police force are all pretty dystopic.

Second, these institutions will always be imperfect, especially at scale.

Come on now. When one group of people are treated disproportionately differently than another group for the same behavior scale isn't the problem here. Would yo like to rephrase that assessment?

 

[ultratruman]

It makes sense, we don't have the imagination on what needs to happen to actually change the systemic exploitation of the current capitalist hegemony that we live under, so instead we focus passionate anger on cultural struggles i.e. racial tolerance, police reform, women's rights. All great ways to ensure we can all live peacefully, equally represented under the framework of capitalist exploitation, a free race debate with every coffee at Starbucks.

Even if you asked those occupy wall street guys what actions they want or what they'd replace the current system with, at best you'd get vacuous references to human dignity and equality that, let's be honest, anyone of any political complexion could sign up to.

What happened when all those John Galt masters of the universe crashed the economy in the last decade? Most of them nothing, and the worst were punished in this purely legalistic way that made us feel good without actually changing anything about how the system functions. Even if we jailed for life every cop who shot someone dead, the underlying cycle of deprivation and gun prevalence would still be there.

Economic reform needs to go beyond taxation. Bernie Sanders is seen as an extreme left-winger today yet 40, 50 years ago ideas like his were moderately centrist in the west. Something bigger than the police has changed.

 

[onadesertedisland]

Here in Dallas, we're dealing with a rookie cop shooting an unarmed black kid and his lawyer is saying he was fired because of protests, not because he's a terrible police officer and killed someone for no reason.
http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/201...-fired-to-appease-anti-police-activists.html/

 

[ReAxion]

Third, humans are really bad at risk-assessment. We have this ridiculous fantasy that dirty cops framing us for suicide in jail is a big threat, when honestly mundane things like traffic accidents and heart decease are both more dangerous too us AND more preventable. Being afraid of the police is the new terrorism, in my opinion. Something extremely unlikely to happen to you, and yet capable of coloring your entire worldview.

The police are humans and they're really bad at risk-assessment. They have this ridiculous fantasy that people of color are a big threat, when honestly mundane things like traffic accidents are more dangerous and preventable. Being afraid of people of color is a pervasive attitude that goes back hundreds of years. Something extremely unlikely to happen to them colors their entire worldview.