Support NeoGAF

[benny_a]

your post makes zero sense. it doesn't provide any meaningful information whatsoever. it doesn't even address what file system it is referring to. not to mention it's an article on the subject from 1996...1996.

It's to show that it was an recommendation in 1996 even then.

but yes, I would imagine this problem would make sense back in 1996.

Yes. And then journaling was introduced to reduce the chance of file system corruption.

And then data scrubbing in modern filesystem was introduced to fix the issue of bitrot, as physical media will silently fail your files.

But it's fine. I don't need to convince you. Luckily the people writing Linux filesystems and initialization and shutdown sequences disagree with you.

The short answer is: Because PS4 and every other PS system still uses FAT32.

How do you know this? I would imagine it's UFS. But I don't have access to it unencrypted, so I don't know.

 

[red731]

I learn that people do some new kind of stupid stuff every day.

We really are interesting species.

 

[Septimius]

I've done this a billion times with computers and laptops (for laptops I've removed the battery while not plugged in)...never had a single issue

your hardware will be fine and your OS should be able to handle it without problems

This isn't a hardware or OS issue, it's that when you update the firmware, a very important part of the hardware is being written over. Interrupting that process borks most devices (this is why you need to plug in your phone to AC to firmware-update, why bricks happen with jailbreaking/homebrewing, why tons of Wii Us bricked at launch, etc)

Of course, whatever place is being update should ideally keep a fall-back copy, but at some point you are going to even write over the pointer to what to boot. It's kind of impossible to have a firmware upgrade system where you can never brick the hardware. Sony's recover option seems a very handy way to handle this.

 

[NullPointer]

My problem is that the PS4 likes to completely power down in rest mode on occasion.

Then when I power it back on it berates me for unplugging it rather than powering it down gracefully. No shit. I always just want to yell back at the damn thing that I had nothing to do with it.

No real problems have come about from it yet though.

 

[Wiseblade]

I've had a couple instances where I carelessly unplugged my PS4 while in sleep mode, but did that fully aware of the risk I was taking.

 

[GiantBombGamer]

My PS4 bricked just because I got a little piss in there!

Lol you laugh, but when I had surgery and was immobile for a few days, they sent me home with one of those pee urinal container things. Long story short, my grandmother came to empty it, tripped and spilled it on my dresser...onto my vita and xbox. The vita did not survive. Neither did the Xbox at first thanks to those damn air slots for the fan on top. But thanks to the magic of a blow dryer, it returned from the dead...

 

[Jamex RZ]

The short answer is: Because PS4 and every other PS system still uses FAT32.

The longer answer is: FAT32 is a piece of shit and it's baffling why Sony hasn't moved on to some variant of a Linux-native file system after all these years.

Huh? It uses FAT 32 on USB or external drives, but for the hard drive PS4 OS is based on FreeBSD 9, so it probably uses UFS or ZFS.

 

[NullPointer]

Lol you laugh, but when I had surgery and was immobile for a few days, they sent me home with one of those pee urinal container things. Long story short, my grandmother came to empty it, tripped and spilled it on my dresser...onto my vita and xbox. The vita did not survive. Neither did the Xbox at first thanks to those damn air slots for the fan on top. But thanks to the magic of a blow dryer, it returned from the dead...

I remember back in the day a buddy knocked over this huge vase with flowers, and gallons upon gallons just crashed directly over my OG Xbox. It was a mess.

Let it out to dry overnight and it had no problems the next day. That thing was a fucking tank.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Huh? It uses FAT 32 on USB or external drives, but for the hard drive PS4 OS is based on FreeBSD 9, so it probably uses UFS or ZFS.

How do you know this? I would imagine it's UFS. But I don't have access to it unencrypted, so I don't know.

I want to believe this too, but both PS3 and Vita use FAT32. Both of those have been hacked so this is known.

 

[Risk Breaker]

I've actually had to do this MANY times at work with different PS4 test/devkits and I'm amazed that the hardware has never had a problem with it.

It checks the hard drive for a few seconds and that's it.

 

[Gxgear]

This is why I'm always skeptical when people say they take good care of their electronics.

 

[benny_a]

I want to believe this too, but both PS3 and Vita use FAT32. Both of those have been hacked so this is known.

PS3 uses UFS according to the PS3 Dev Wiki.

And how was it determined what the filesystem is? Is there a header dump accessible to verify this?

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

another related pro tip

don't do that with your PC either

you can all thank me for this one

What if it's a laptop?

 

[StayDead]

I've had my PS4 slim for 4 days now and I've only had one thing happen that worried me.

I put it in rest mode, but when I went to turn it back on it wouldn't come on. The light was lit, but it was a sort of whitish colour and the controller was on, but didn't do anything. I held the power button (after leaving it 10 minutes) and it went off, then turrned it back on. It didn't complain to me about it being powered down, so I'm not sure what caused it.

 

[nkarafo]

It's just common sense. You wouldn't normally do this on a PC. So don't do it with a game console.

It happens all the time. A program crashes, windows crashes, etc. It could be a technical problem that caused your PC to restart or even a power cut you can't control.

But when i turn my PC back on it doesn't tell me it needs to delete all my data and re-format the drives.

 

[Jamex RZ]

PS3 uses UFS according to the PS3 Dev Wiki.

And how was it determined what the filesystem is? Is there a header dump accessible to verify this?

Correct, it's based on FreeBSD too. Don't know where he got both use fat32...

 

[Unknown Soldier]

PS3 uses UFS according to the PS3 Dev Wiki.

And how was it determined what the filesystem is? Is there a header dump accessible to verify this?

Huh, years ago I heard it was FAT32 but maybe not? Well if it's UFS that still doesn't make it good since I don't think UFS ever got to the point where it was a journaled file system, which could be why turning a PS4 off without going through shutdown will potentially corrupt the drive.

After PS3 was hacked people were able to decrypt PS3 hard drives, that's probably how they found out what the file system was.

 

[xxracerxx]

It happens all the time. A program crashes, windows crashes, etc. It could be a technical problem that caused your PC to restart or even a power cut you can't control.

But when i turn my PC back on it doesn't tell me it needs to delete all my data and re-format the drives.

But that has happened to a small minority, just the with the PS4. So what is your point?

 

[Raiden]

Maybe you should sue so that we all have to go through more verifications and TOS pages before we can play something.

 

[Radec]

yeah it worries me. I live in North Seattle and we lose power a couple times a winter because of all the douglas firs.

Buy a UPS?

Works like a charm in the office.

 

[Kurtofan]

wish there was a power down button, it's really annoying.

 

[Melchiah]

My only grievance with the automatic updates is, that it usually does them at 4-5am. I live in a small apartment, so I can sometimes hear the system turn on when I'm in the bed. I wish you could set the update time, like you can on the PS3.

 

[foxbeldin]

Duh ! : the thread.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

My only grievance with the automatic updates is, that it usually does them at 4-5am. I live in a small apartment, so I can sometimes hear the system turn on when I'm in the bed. I wish you could set the update time, like you can on the PS3.

Can't you just turn the automatic updates off? I play with my PS4 only occasionally and I have to update firmware as the very first thing every time I do boot it up.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Maybe you should sue so that we all have to go through more verifications and TOS pages before we can play something.

If only there was a warning on these systems...

 

[unapersson]

Nothing is more beautiful in life than when Windows 10 decides its the perfect time to spend 2 million years updating your computer when you finally want to get some shit done.

Surely you can just yank the power cord, gets rid of those annoying updating messages.

 

[Melchiah]

Can't you just turn the automatic updates off? I play with my PS4 only occasionally and I have to update firmware as the very first thing every time I do boot it up.

I don't really want to, as I like the way it updates games automatically, before I'm about to start playing them.

 

[nkarafo]

But that has happened to a small minority, just the with the PS4. So what is your point?

My point is that a user error like this shouldn't cause complete data loss. I'm defending the OP basically. Although it was his own error, it could just as easily be something out of his control, like a power cut/surge.

 

[RevenWolf]

My point is that a user error like this shouldn't cause complete data loss. I'm defending the OP basically. Although it was his own error, it could just as easily be something out of his control, like a power cut/surge.

But the thing is it wasn't due to a single occurrence, op did it lots, so no a user error didn't cause data loss. Several repeated user errors did.

 

[Jamex RZ]

My point is that a user error like this shouldn't cause complete data loss. I'm defending the OP basically. Although it was his own error, it could just as easily be something out of his control, like a power cut/surge.

A power outage doesn't happen every time you turn the machine. He stated in the OP has been doing it since forever. It caught with him eventually.

 

[True Fire]

Stay safe Sony gaf

You can't leave Sony GAF by themselves for two minutes without a snake getting in their machine or their PSN account getting hacked or shit like this

 

[Nostremitus]

It happens all the time. A program crashes, windows crashes, etc. It could be a technical problem that caused your PC to restart or even a power cut you can't control.

But when i turn my PC back on it doesn't tell me it needs to delete all my data and re-format the drives.

You unplug you PC while its installing a windows update all the time?

 

[Applecot]

In other news: reading is important

 

[xk0sm0sx]

Never forget this word of advice.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Living in a country with several power outages I always fear for this.

 

[jroc74]

My launch PS4 has an annoying "feature" where it turns on by itself, instead of shutting it down from the controller and then unplugging it i just yanked the power cable off and went to sleep. Today i boot the PS4 and i encounter an error saying i needed to reinstall the latest firmware through a USB drive but doing so will delete all my data, i couldn't find any solution online so i just initialized my system causing me to lose everything. It's not a total loss because i think got most of my saves on the cloud but i have to redownload everything again which is horrible. The most peculiar thing is that i have unplugged my PS4 several times and this is the first time i see such an error, so yeah be careful guys.

My point is that a user error like this shouldn't cause complete data loss. I'm defending the OP basically. Although it was his own error, it could just as easily be something out of his control, like a power cut/surge.

See this part of the OP? This is the key thing.

I have had power outages, kids hitting the switch on the surge protector numerous times over the years and these are the results:

Nothing major. Error checking kicking on when the PC booted back up. But eventually....

An old PC died completely. Something probably got fried. That same old PC the harddrive got corrupted at least 2 times I can remember. I had to use some type of harddrive repair program to get it back up n running. I took everything out and put it in a newer PC. Harddrive, power supply, video card all still work. Never tried to see if the cpu or mobo till worked.

Newer PC I have now? Nothing.....yet.

Whether by his own hand or something else the PS4 getting turned off like that was a risk. In my case it took alot of power outages, surge switch hits for my issues to happen.

 

[nkarafo]

You unplug you PC while its installing a windows update all the time?

Of course not.

However, windows updates might be common and take several minutes to complete. Something can happen during that time. I expect that i won't have to lose all my data in that case. Worst case scenario a system restore should be needed to fix any inconsistencies resulted in the OS.

I just feel like the data loss of the whole drive is excessive.


Edit: OK the OP pushed his luck repeatedly. I suppose that's fair then.

 

[Raylan]

My launch PS4 has an annoying "feature" where it turns on by itself, instead of shutting it down from the controller and then unplugging it i just yanked the power cable off and went to sleep. Today i boot the PS4 and i encounter an error saying i needed to reinstall the latest firmware through a USB drive but doing so will delete all my data, i couldn't find any solution online so i just initialized my system causing me to lose everything. It's not a total loss because i think got most of my saves on the cloud but i have to redownload everything again which is horrible. The most peculiar thing is that i have unplugged my PS4 several times and this is the first time i see such an error, so yeah be careful guys.

DON'T UNPLUG YOUR XXX WHILE IT'S ON!

Never! My buddy damaged his $1800 Gaming-PC while doing this.
Yeah, it's a well known No No for electronic devices.

another related pro tip

don't do that with your PC either

you can all thank me for this one

Yup ^^

 

[jroc74]

But the thing is it wasn't due to a single occurrence, op did it lots, so no a user error didn't cause data loss. Several repeated user errors did.

A power outage doesn't happen every time you turn the machine. He stated in the OP has been doing it since forever. It caught with him eventually.

All this.

 

[*Splinter]

Thanks for this pro strat.

Also learned from Gaf that i shouldnt shake a console while it reads the disc.

Remember this only applies when the disc is actually being read - generally during installs and maybe loading screens. The rest of the time you're golden.

Spoiler

Don't shake your console

 

[EmiPrime]

The PS4 is a computer with a hard drive and a hibernate mode. Of course it's a bad idea to pull the plug when it's turned on. I assume the PS4 tries to resolve CRC errors and rebuild caches and if it can't it just wipes the whole thing. It's not like the PS4 holds important documents.

If you yank the kettle plug out of your PC instead of turning it off properly your OS will complain on next boot and if you do it enough times your bad practice will catch up with you and you will get data loss and damage to components. The PS4 is hardly unique.

Those who live in an area with frequent power outages should invest in a UPS.

 

[Heaven Shard]

Spoiler

Don't shake your console[/spoiler

Spoiler

I fight the urge to use the "I was [shaken] as a baby and I turned out fine!" argument. (Change [shake] to anything else).

Worst case scenario a system restore should be needed to fix any inconsistencies resulted in the OS.

Talking about system restore (for consoles and PC), aren't those for the OS and crucial files only? I assume if you want to backup everything, you need twice the HDD space. I assume this since I have trouble setting a system restore for my Windows since my machines tells me I don't have enough space in the HDD- although system restore saved my ass a number of time through the years.
With the case of a console, I think it is way easier to set a restore point since you only really need to backup the OS as you can re-download any games and apps at any time.

P.S. The OP's avatar is fitting for this thread.

 

[Lupercal]

Don't plug out electronics while running is (should) be basic knowledge.

Just like fire = hot!

 

[THEaaron]

we really don't

if your electronics can't handle this, you should really rethink what the fuck you're doing

Wat.. Omg

 

[bobs...onGaf]

On one hand, this is a general rule of thumb kinda thing.

On the other, power outages are a real thing and the device shouldn't shit the bed when one happens.

Yeah but a power outage happens once in a extremely rare occasion for most people

Unplugging your console every night is like simulating a power outage every night

Ive lost data from a usb by unplugging it early and now I respect letting stuff shut down/ eject correctly! It's all a numbers game and every time you do it you take the risk of damaging it even if it's only a small risk

 

[mitch1971]

Remember to use a knife to get your bread out of a toaster OP.

 

[Jacksinthe]

The PS4 is more sensitive to being powered off incorrectly than any other electronic device I've owned.

My computer, my consoles, and all my handhelds can lose power without the catastrophic results my PS4 predicts every time I put it into its slow ass rest mode. I wonder why.

As mentioned multiple times, the PS4 powers on randomly to check and install updates.

Next time you update your PC, in the middle of an update, yank the cord and try booting again.

It's why I have a battery backup on my PC and devkits. Just in case the power goes oom in the middle of doing anything that can potentially damage a drive.

I've had the power go off once when I was working and the backup power paid for itself in lost time and data instantly.

Even with my backup I don't mess about in heavy storms even though it's only happened once in about a decade.

You really want fun? Push a bios update and yank the cord in the middle of it.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

My parents always turn off everything I own by plugging it off. I shouldn't have seen so many "data is corrupted, reformat the console" messages.

 

[TannerDemoz]

6 pages on information that is literally thrown in front of your eyes every time you pretty much use your PS4?

 

[Rymuth]

I love this thread so much