There's a gaf channel? Wait... there are channels in the game? Whoa.... Someone, tell me it. I'm lonely when I play.
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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
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There's a gaf channel? Wait... there are channels in the game? Whoa.... Someone, tell me it. I'm lonely when I play.
If something has been proven to be the best way doesn't that mean no way can be better? Although maybe in Kirby's Dream Land this isn't true, must be a magical place.
Schweinehund
Member
There isn't really that much that goes on in the main channel besides occasional ranting myself included, and people looking for party.
The dota 2 gaf players are pretty segregated.
Gully State
Member
I rarely see much going on in the channel as well other than IH (which I haven't seen much of lately). I've thought about participating in an IH game but as other people have said, the skill discrepancy with the regulars are pretty vast. Not to mention that the handful of times I've spectated IH games, I witnessed beginners getting chewed out (in particular I remember a new WR player getting completely yelled at by multiple people for hesitating on his power shots..though in their defense after both sides raged- a proper explanation was at least given...).
Dreams-Visions
Member
Even the statement itself is fundamentally flawed. There is no best way to build (skill order + items) a character. It's all completely a function of your team composition, the enemy team composition, lanes opponents, and how each team builds their strategy over the course of the game and around whom. Needs and roles flow from there.
I'm new, but I've played enough to know that much. There will be variances in strategy and item builds from one game to the next if your understanding of the game is high. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all build for a character.
Shame, I was hoping that I could get some help on my play from some people. Whenever I ask in the channel about a pickup game nobody responds. Guess a scrub pubber like me isn't wanted
If you click on the plus beside the channel tab it will give you a long list of available channels. Just scroll until you find NeoGaf. The nice thing is that once you load a channel, it will always load whenever you start the game (assuming you don't close it before shutting down Dota).
And yeah, as people mentioned, it's pretty dead aside from the odd match-making requests, rants and inhouse announcements.
Considering that the community keeps growing, we should probably do something about that. (Also, the inhouses aren't that bad especially if you make it clear you're new. Some people can be pretty brutal but you learn quickly who to ignore.)
Shame, I was hoping that I could get some help on my play from some people. Whenever I ask in the channel about a pickup game nobody responds. Guess a scrub pubber like me isn't wanted
If you're new, I'm always willing to help teach the basics. Though I'm a US Easter and generally only on late at night. And if you're not new, then I really have nothing to offer.
US East as well (try to get to bed early but you know how that goes) I do know certain basics like pushing towers, last hits. But I have no clue about builds and when to gank/ push a certain lane. I just suck at playing for the team because I can't figure out what needs to be done.
I need to get back into playing IHs with you guys. Even though there was all the "salthouse" stuff, I still had fun. I've gotten a lot better since the last time I played in an IH. I can play pretty much all of the heroes competently now, some being better than others. I really need to practice more with Chen.
While I certainly agree with this sentiment, kirby made very specific arguments:
- Manta worth forgoing because of distaste for illusions (clearly not)
- Yasha alone is sufficient (not optimal, doubly so if the end goal is a Sange and Yasha [combat benefit is redundant, not to mention inferior to Viper's innate skills, same would go for Drow], triply so if there is no end goal at all)
His characterization of dissent as being mere reaction to doing something different is nonsense.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Aghanim's on viper is really fun too if you are playing semi carry and your team isn't relying 100% on you to carry late game.
I typically go manta, but there are plenty of options after you buy your boots and your regen/ a little bit of tankiness.
A late end game would still be Manta, but I don't see any reason to get it unless I am out of Inventory spots, or I have to take up the role of Primary Carry. I tend to play Viper as a Ganking Simi-Cary though, what he does best, so I would rater have things like Heart, Hood, or something to help chase. The big reason I get Yasha is the move speed bonus.
Also, when did I ever imply I would go for S&Y?
Sanic
Member
What kind of K/D ratio should I be looking for in a pusher? I usually end up somewhere in the 3/2/6 or 5/5/8 ballpark. Haven't really had anyone complain about those numbers yet, but I feel like I might be dying a bit too much, at least in situations when I shouldn't necessarily be. For example, I play Shadow Shaman a ton and in a lot of cases I can take a tower by myself. Often, i'll die during the process, but is it worth it if I got the tower, or significantly weakened it?
I understand it's sort of a situational thing i'll have to feel out, but i'm looking for advice as i'm still fairly new to the game.
I understand it's sort of a situational thing i'll have to feel out, but i'm looking for advice as i'm still fairly new to the game.
Gully State
Member
Doesn't Viper's DPS drop off significantly end game? I always thought he was a semi-carry and not a true late game carry...I do love the way his damage snowballs..
I can help with basic builds and general flow of a game. I'm Beesハチ on Steam.
As many kills/assists as possible and as few deaths as possible. There's really no measurement for this since the goal of the game is to destroy the Ancient. So long as you accomplish that, your stats are pretty irrelevant.
Those numbers look fine. I would have to see your game to really comment on what you could be improving based on the information present.
(Though you shouldn't be dying taking a tower - especially as Shadow Shaman unless there's a team fight breaking out beneath it.)
If there is enough interest to create inhouses, I can spectate and offer advice to teams ala Redditnoobs.
Yep. Within the next 2-4 hours if all goes well.
Valve time
There are simply some great lines that never seem to play in game:
http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/4/46/Doom_rival_07.mp3
http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/4/46/Doom_rival_07.mp3
I cant recommend hanging out in the redditnoobs chat channel enough for those who are new to the game. They have IH up pretty much constantly for both Euro and American time zones. Found a load of new playing partners too. There are some idiots in there but on the whole it is a pleasent experience.
For team EG.
For team EG.
throwawayname
Member
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Alright Kirby, I'll play your game here. Let's compare these items:
Euls + Force
Manta
Summarizing:
Comparing actives is harder. There's no denying that all of the actives are very useful, but you have to consider what hero is using them and their role in the game. I'll get to actives specifically in a bit.
An exaggerated example would be something like a CM getting a radiance, as her low HP and poor base AS disallow her from taking advantage of the item's max potential. Viper has two spells, one of which is an orb with a very low mana cost, so the mana regeneration from Euls as well as the bonus intellect, (130 mana) is largely wasted compared to something like Lina with more actives and more dependence on her spells.
Viper is generally classified as a powerful mid-game carry that can be tanky, and counters auto-attack heroes later into the game. His presence in the game comes from his ultimate and auto attacks. So the additional damage, attack speed, and movement speed for chasing from Manta allow him to fulfill this role more effectively.
Viper's offensive passive, nethertoxin, allows him to do plenty of damage without many damage items, so giving him survivability goes farther with him than most other carries. Combining his defensive passive, 25% as/ms slow with 25% magic res, with more HP compounds the benefit, so the additional 190 HP from Manta is very beneficial, as well as the 2.2 bonus armor.
On to the actives, as I said before this comparison will be a little more difficult as they vary based on team composition. Generally, you don't want a carry/semi carry spending their gold on crowd control items that supports/gankers could be buying. The cyclone gives viper a little more chasing potential, as he could cyclone a fleeing enemy from 700 range rather than attacking and slowing from 600, but the gap in movement speed would probably balance this out while the cyclone is on cooldown. Combining cyclone/push allows for much more chasing potential, but is that really worth the 5000g? You trade off all of the benefits listed above to do a worse job of killing the enemy once you get to them.
Cyclone and push have defensive and in-fight applications as well, but so do illusions. Most spells that could be dodged with Cyclone can be dodged with Manta split as well if used at a high level. Manta arguably leaves you in a more favorable position afterwards as you don't hang in the air and let enemies position themselves and instead come out with illusions. These illusions both do damage, even though they don't use nethertoxin, and serve to confuse opponents for a few seconds while they don't know which illusion is real. Saying that he doesn't benefit from illusions is pretty nuts as he benefits more than most other heroes given his constant slowing ability letting the illusions get more hits in. You lose the ability to save teammates with push or move enemies out of position, but that doesn't matter much to Viper as that isn't his job.
Even if you wanted to get a crowd control item in a dark situation, and these situations do arise, sheep is clearly the better option, as it would allow you to do a lot of damage during the disable compared to the invulnerable cyclone.
What it boils down to is that while both of those items could be used and you could find some success with them, they don't augment Viper's real strengths well enough to be considered anything more than troll items.
I had hoped my blunt response to the idea would provoke analysis of why I would say something like that and why it's a conventional build, as you seem to love investigating dota arcanery. Instead you just cover a silly idea with the "experiment" excuse.
EDIT: Forgot to talk about Yasha only:
The damage, armor, and HP from the the Manta upgrade, as well as the illusion benefits that are discussed above, makes the upgrade to Manta very worth it in my opinion.
Euls + Force
- Cost:
- 5000
- Stats:
- 20 int
- 150% mana regen
- 10 dmg
- 10 as
- 30 ms
- Actives:
- Cyclone
- Push
Manta
- Cost:
- 4900
- Stats:
- 26 agi
- 10 str
- 10 int
- 15 as
- 10% ms
- Actives:
- Illusions
Summarizing:
- Manta costs 100g less
- Euls + Force gives 10 more int (130 mana)
- Manta gives 10 more str (190 hp)
- Manta gives 26 more agi (16 more damage 2.2 armor)
- Manta gives more AS (31 more from agi + passive)
- As long as you have boots, Manta gives more MS (+4 ms with red boots)
- Euls + Force gives more mana regeneration
Comparing actives is harder. There's no denying that all of the actives are very useful, but you have to consider what hero is using them and their role in the game. I'll get to actives specifically in a bit.
An exaggerated example would be something like a CM getting a radiance, as her low HP and poor base AS disallow her from taking advantage of the item's max potential. Viper has two spells, one of which is an orb with a very low mana cost, so the mana regeneration from Euls as well as the bonus intellect, (130 mana) is largely wasted compared to something like Lina with more actives and more dependence on her spells.
Viper is generally classified as a powerful mid-game carry that can be tanky, and counters auto-attack heroes later into the game. His presence in the game comes from his ultimate and auto attacks. So the additional damage, attack speed, and movement speed for chasing from Manta allow him to fulfill this role more effectively.
Viper's offensive passive, nethertoxin, allows him to do plenty of damage without many damage items, so giving him survivability goes farther with him than most other carries. Combining his defensive passive, 25% as/ms slow with 25% magic res, with more HP compounds the benefit, so the additional 190 HP from Manta is very beneficial, as well as the 2.2 bonus armor.
On to the actives, as I said before this comparison will be a little more difficult as they vary based on team composition. Generally, you don't want a carry/semi carry spending their gold on crowd control items that supports/gankers could be buying. The cyclone gives viper a little more chasing potential, as he could cyclone a fleeing enemy from 700 range rather than attacking and slowing from 600, but the gap in movement speed would probably balance this out while the cyclone is on cooldown. Combining cyclone/push allows for much more chasing potential, but is that really worth the 5000g? You trade off all of the benefits listed above to do a worse job of killing the enemy once you get to them.
Cyclone and push have defensive and in-fight applications as well, but so do illusions. Most spells that could be dodged with Cyclone can be dodged with Manta split as well if used at a high level. Manta arguably leaves you in a more favorable position afterwards as you don't hang in the air and let enemies position themselves and instead come out with illusions. These illusions both do damage, even though they don't use nethertoxin, and serve to confuse opponents for a few seconds while they don't know which illusion is real. Saying that he doesn't benefit from illusions is pretty nuts as he benefits more than most other heroes given his constant slowing ability letting the illusions get more hits in. You lose the ability to save teammates with push or move enemies out of position, but that doesn't matter much to Viper as that isn't his job.
Even if you wanted to get a crowd control item in a dark situation, and these situations do arise, sheep is clearly the better option, as it would allow you to do a lot of damage during the disable compared to the invulnerable cyclone.
What it boils down to is that while both of those items could be used and you could find some success with them, they don't augment Viper's real strengths well enough to be considered anything more than troll items.
I had hoped my blunt response to the idea would provoke analysis of why I would say something like that and why it's a conventional build, as you seem to love investigating dota arcanery. Instead you just cover a silly idea with the "experiment" excuse.
EDIT: Forgot to talk about Yasha only:
The damage, armor, and HP from the the Manta upgrade, as well as the illusion benefits that are discussed above, makes the upgrade to Manta very worth it in my opinion.
Sanic
Member
Thanks, i'll keep an eye out for it.
Appreciate it. I understand that the ultimate goal is to win as a team, probably more so than any game i've played (which is a huge breath of fresh air), just wanted to make sure that my numbers didn't seem too out of whack
As far as dying when taking the tower, i'm not dying from the tower itself. Usually, i'll finish it off or get close to finishing it off when two or three guys from the opposing team will swarm and kill me.
I just wanted to add that wanting to experiment is great however as dota is an old game and viper itself is probably an old hero (I'm assuming on this one) there's been alot of experimenting done already. Maybe you'll find a strategy that is extremely specific to a certain situation sure but general strategies are most likely established on certain things.
Eh, Manta doesn't really strike me as a natural choice for a lategame item. In the midgame, everything it offers can be a big deal, but doesn't really make as much sense lategame, given the diminishing returns on the agility and other stats.
I was detailing the natural alternatives to Manta, being an S&Y or a naked Yasha for extended periods of time. The latter is really not optimal, taking the aforementioned lategame Manta choice into consideration. An Eaglesong (into Butterfly) is a better proposition for a lategame infusion of Agility, because there won't be nearly as much wasted potential stats that a long-term naked Yasha would result in.
From what you've described of the role you like to fill with him, it seems like you'd be better served skipping the Yasha altogether, instead using the money to buy an early Hood. Throw in something like Drums for some added efficient stats and movement speed, finish the Pipe if need be, a BKB if need be, with maybe something like an Aghanim's for lategame to tank up further and let you throw slows and your ult constantly without depleting your mana pool. If utility is your primary goal for the early and midgame, don't weaken that utility by delaying those items for partially-completed dps items (jack of all trades...). A Viper with below-average utility and below-average DPS will on balance have a below-average impact on the game. Gotta pick your poison.
I didn't literally mean both Eul's and Force Staff at once, I meant trying out both of them in different games.
Its my turn to play this game.
Force + Yasha:
2150 + 2200 = 4350
Stats:
16 Agility
10 Damage
10 Int
25 Attack Speed
10% MS
Actives: Push
Summarizing:
Manta costs 450 more
Manta Takes up 1 less inventory spot
Both give the same int
Bot give same Movement speed
Manta gives 10 more str (190 hp)
Manta gives 10 more agi (Same Damage, 1.4 More Armor)
Both give the same attack speed
Manta gives a good deal more survivability and potential damage output, and frees up an item slot, while Force Staff gives a better ability to chase down. Both give some form of escape, Manta can disjoint a stun and dispell debuffs, while Force Staff can move you 600 units away.
Its my turn to play this game.
Force + Yasha:
2150 + 2200 = 4350
Stats:
16 Agility
10 Damage
10 Int
25 Attack Speed
10% MS
Actives: Push
Summarizing:
Manta costs 450 more
Manta Takes up 1 less inventory spot
Both give the same int
Bot give same Movement speed
Manta gives 10 more str (190 hp)
Manta gives 10 more agi (Same Damage, 1.4 More Armor)
Both give the same attack speed
Manta gives a good deal more survivability and potential damage output, and frees up an item slot, while Force Staff gives a better ability to chase down. Both give some form of escape, Manta can disjoint a stun and dispell debuffs, while Force Staff can move you 600 units away.
Awesome thank you
This will be great. Unless I play Riki or Jugg I am hopeless.
Appreciate it. I understand that the ultimate goal is to win as a team, probably more so than any game i've played (which is a huge breath of fresh air), just wanted to make sure that my numbers didn't seem too out of whack
As far as dying when taking the tower, i'm not dying from the tower itself. Usually, i'll finish it off or get close to finishing it off when two or three guys from the opposing team will swarm and kill me.
The numbers seem fine on their own. I suspected you were dying from being ganked and those deaths are preventable. Once you start developing more map awareness you'll be able to sense when you've overstayed your welcome when taking a tower, and since Shadow Shaman has his wards, you can leave those to finish it off while you get to safety.
perryfarrell
Member
Great idea, I'll be there too. I usually play MM or redditnoobs, as the neogaf channel isn't really noob friendly.
Yeah I have to agree, if you understanding of the game is high then they would know Manta on Viper the carry would be a core item to get. So it's just people not being of high understanding that is the problem.
So you would not upgrade to anything? seems very unpractical.
Well if your playing in games where you can farm ez mode then you frankly can buy what ever you want. But in games of good level your going to get pressured, surviving on
Boots 1500
Hood Cost 2125
Yasha 2150
and trying to farm this after is some task.
Heart of Tarrasque Cost 3200
Vitality Booster Cost 1100
Recipe 1200
Like going Hood and Heart is all lovely jubbly in theory but practically its risky and has a high percentage of failure trying play Viper as a Ganker with those items in mind. Your never getting that Heart if the other team gets smart, one example would be that you would fucked if the other team keeps forcing teamfights and your pretty much fucked.
It's why people go BKB/Manta on most carry's and Viper is one of them, it enables them to be useful in team fights and allows them to farm and survive ganks.
You guys are going to much in to numbers and bullshit like that and are forgetting the games meta-game, which is clash take towers push. This all matters on the quality of the other team. Kirby's shit will work but only at low level and will get crunched soon as he plays a good team.
Might as well get Shadow Blade & Drums, be fast die hard.
You are warned, my next item build for Viper come next GafIH
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Well if you mean OR and not AND it makes a lot more sense, I would still stay away from Euls, but yasha/push could prove effective if you have a dazzle/healing support to keep you alive and the ability to close out the game early. Not getting any HP would be dangerous, vgaurd/yasha/push could be profitable if you're farming very well early with a fast aggression team.
If you could only use it on Allies, would make it a god tier item.
Yes, I really prefer HoN's Stormspirit in that regard. I cannot count how many times I was desperately clicking on someone to cyclone them out of harms way only to remember that I can't do it anymore. I've all but given up on Eul's now.
Euls+blink so good on int heroes.
More like, rage inducing.
The very definition of a troll build, because it really does troll people endlessly.
eul's viper is legit to all u haters, viper has problems catching retreating enemies and eul's allows u to control your opponent, not to be controlled. you have to be in range for viper's orb to go off, but most of the time viper isn't in range to orb + ulti and that's where the eul's come in. you can post your stats all day but anecdotes and real game situations speak louder.
Fans of lone druid you gotta try the tank build. Just go vanguard + heart + blade armor on the bear and then skadii + heart + satanic on lone druid and you will win easy. This build statistically makes you invincible, able to tank towers like a boss--just push em' to death.
Fans of lone druid you gotta try the tank build. Just go vanguard + heart + blade armor on the bear and then skadii + heart + satanic on lone druid and you will win easy. This build statistically makes you invincible, able to tank towers like a boss--just push em' to death.
crimsonheadGCN
Banned
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