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Dragon Ball Super |OT2| June 12: Judgment Day

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I'm curious to see how Whis and Beerus are going to be handled throughout the remaining ~70 episodes.

Will they become buddy buddy with the Z fighters in the end? Will Goku and Vegeta kill them? Will they be defeated by the next big bad?

I feel like they'll (or at least Whis will) be killed by someone else who sets up the next arc after whatever they do AFTER the tournament.

I wouldn't mind everyone getting stupid fucking strong if it meant that the group became Goku/Vegeta/Beerus/Gohan/Piccolo/Gotenks. It would give another non-Saiyan fighter which we desperately need for the "good guys".

I'm so sick of Super Saiyans. Need to see Piccolo and Beerus lay some smackdown on some baddies.
 
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nipple guy! Ah-ah so fany~ not really. I can understand to some extent awful and lazy designs being justified by the fact that those characters are never seen again after 1 or 2 fights but come on.
at least a couple of the the universe 6 team members seem interesting. some of those colored pictures in the OP are pretty terrible, especially compared to what you see in the manga. like the guy who seems the exact copy of Freeza but blue instead of purple looks a bit more diverse in the manga.

it's going to be fun to see Piccolo being destroyed in roughly half a second, unless he somehow had some secret insane (/impossible) training which might give him the chance to last for maybe a couple of panels.
 
Yeah... I guess this won't go anywhere, since you want to question direct statements that aren't hinted at all to be questionable.
You are weirdly taking the character statements as the final truth when time and time again they are shown wrong.

Goku states his SSJ3 could have defeated Buu. Later on, he cannot defeat it as SSJ3. The time limit on Uranai Baba's power is roughly equivalent to Goku not being able to summon enough power to kill Kid Buu so I have to assume he is wrong. Of course Goku would have wanted ideal conditions of unlimited time with his undead body, but he cannot arrange this, so for all intents and purposes SSJ3 cannot defeat Buu.

If you standard of "the statements aren't hinted to be questionable" holds, what do you make of Majin Vegeta vs Goku? Vegeta thinks he has finally matched up to Goku. There's nothing in that fight hinting of Vegeta being wrong, or Goku having SSJ3. This is clear proof that Toriyama doesn't care about hinting whether what anyone (in particular Vegeta) says or think is wrong. Toriyama does not give a fuck about hinting.

Vegeta is wrong about his opponents' strength twice during the Buu saga alone (during all of dbz Vegeta is constantly, hilariously, sometimes massively wrong about this). His self immolation is not even close to killing Buu, and he doesn't even notice that Goku was holding back massively during his Majin duel (something that is not even hinted). So you gotta admit that Toriyama writing a Vegeta being wrong about Gohan being out of shape, could have easily be Toriyama making Vegeta wrong again. Shortly afterwards, once Gohan is dethroned from the protagonist role, Toriyama will go out of his way to show Gohan is weaker, twice, but the "out of shape" comment is par for the course for Vegeta.


Gohan's potential unlock in the Namek Saga was pretty pointless though,

Not as pointless as Mystic Gohan.

All in all, Gohan participation in the Namek saga is of much more importance, weight and entertainment value, all without the need of weakening him. Gohan is also given more agency in Namek, agency that will be slowly taken away during Cell (in which he does _zilch_ before the actual defeat of Cell) and by the time of Buu, Gohan is super passive.

but that "What If" scenario is irrelevant. What I'm pointing out is that Toriyama clearly was building up to them from the beginning of the Buu Saga - Gohan's weakness first mentioned two chapters in, he's out of practice in the beginning of Goten's training, then finally Goku and Vegeta see that he can't match his previous full power when powering up to his maximum, and Goku tells him (and Gohan tells himself) to remember his anger to draw his hidden powers again like he did against Cell. Eventually we get those hidden powers coming to play again with the Ultimate form.

So, the existence of that foreshadowing breaks the idea of an aborted Saiyaman arc. Obviously, at this point, it's clear you won't accept my conclusion, since you're even willing to question the manga's characters themselves even when the manga didn't, but I want to make my point very clear before dropping this. You're focusing on why you think Gohan isn't main character material, my focus here is on signs of changed plot threads or foreshadowing.

Your conclusion is not acceptable because you are conflating two different issues; the idea of Gohan being weaker and the idea of Toriyama having a different plot charted for Gohan, which may or may not have included the Great Saiyaman. Let's _assume_ it would have included it and that Gohan was intended to be weaker.

There's nothing saying that a weaker Gohan couldn't have had further adventures as Great Saiyaman. The two concepts are not contradictory. The facts are that the great Saiyaman stuff is aborted by the tournament arc super early, around same time that Goku takes back the reins of the series (namely, his "fight" with Kibito).

On the other hand, if Toriyama had something else planned for Gohan (let's say, a longer Great Saiyaman arc) that he changed in favor of Goku, those plans would have left behind dangling plot threads when they were cut in favor of Goku. I will show where this _clearly_ happened.

For starters, it is weird that Toriyama had spent some chapters setting up Gohan's secret identity and his school mates, just to waste it all on Kibito's fight. Specially considering that very fight is where Gohan stops being the protagonist. Toriyama fucks around a lot during the actual tournament (those chapters are pretty aimless), and it is clearly the Spopovich/Videl and Kibito/Gohan fights where he decides to get the plot going.

Your idea that the "out of shape" comment "breaks the idea of an aborted Saiyaman arc" would mean that Toriyama planned on fucking up Gohan against Kibito from the very start (given how Vegeta upgrades his "out of shape" comment into "weaker than during Cell", which, if we accept your idea of it being foreshadowed, means the Vegeta comment was planned beforehand for this very fight), which would be weird as that fight marks the point where Goku steps in as protagonist.

The problem is that, by the time of "out of shape" comment, Toriyama still was trying to write Gohan as a protagonist. Why would Toriyama be planning on how to undermine him at that very same time? Gohan-as-protagonist will last a few chapters more after that comment.

It is much more probable that Toriyama just used the Kibito fight to abort the whole Great Saiyaman plot, tired of trying to write Gohan in the lead role. The proof is that the GS plot leaves behind some dangling plotlines that go nowhere. His schoolmates won't be relevant (or shown?) again after it. Gohan worries about "his secret identity being blown" and "not being able to live a normal life", which is very adequate for a superhero story (Toriyama's possible original plan), but these plot points are not ever brought up again, not even in the epilogue. So those are the dangling plot threads that won't be followed up upon, the evidence that the GS was planned to go on longer.


Oh I forgot a detail in your previous post

No, this is very important. Yes even if Gohan had his Cell Games power, he wouldn't be strong enough, but that's irrelevant. What I'm pointing out is that his decrease in power leads the other characters to talk about his hidden powers from the Cell Games and tell him to awaken them again. This eventually leads to the Z Sword and the Kaioshin. If you remove Gohan's weakness, telling him to awaken his hidden power wouldn't make sense, so they'd only be mentioned once we got to Kaioshin, removing the build up to it all.

Gohan's weakness, which is first mentioned in the 2nd chapter of the Buu Saga leads directly to his old hidden powers being mentioned again, and afterwards they're once again relevant with Ultimate. I think those plot threads aren't disjointed or a coincidence, but clearly build up and foreshadowing, which couldn't be done if Gohan weren't weaker. I think it's clearly a stronger line than the idea of some aborted Saiyaman Saga (in spite of the lack of foreshadowing or build up to any conflict in those chapters).

This is factually wrong. Kaiohshin is interested in Gohan's hidden powers when he brings him to kill Dabura and stop Buu from coming out, yes, but Gohan getting the power unlocking has NOTHING to do with him being weaker than during the Cell saga. The old Kaioshin just picks him up for the ritual because Gohan was holding the sword when it was broken, thus marking him as the one who freed him. That's all there is to it. Cell, or Gohan having become weaker is not relevant at all to the Mystic Form. If you remove the Vegeta lines about Gohan being weaker, Gohan still gets the Mystic form without any problem (because even Vegeta, who is stronger than Cell's Gohan gets rekt by Buu, so even if Gohan had kept training in the meantime, he would have been wiped out too, leading to his rescue by Kaiohshin/Kibito, who still had use for a guy stronger than himself).

Which means the drama of Gohan having become weaker since Cell only works until the Dabura fight, and the only thing that it serves is making the public pay attention to Goku and Vegeta, as they are clearly stronger and thus more interesting. Vegeta comments to Gohan having become weaker only purposes is to draw the public's attention to Goku and Vegeta (and are timed to this purpose, as the first time happens just before Goku decides to follow Kaiohshin, and the second time around the Dabura fight, just before the Majin Vegeta/Goku fight).


But this is all way too far from the original argument, that Toriyama took away the leading role from Gohan and gave it to Goku super early. The proof is that Gohan super early is reduced to taking orders from other people, and that Goku is written as the one taking matters on his hands at the very first opportunity provided (helping Kaiohshin). And that this process of taking away agency from Gohan starts as soon as the fourth episode, at the very same time the Great Saiyaman plot is cut short and the tournament is given attention and Goku is announced to come back.

That is how early Gohan stops being the protagonist (the tournament stuff is all very wishy-washy, with the characters just walking around and talking, yet Goku still gets more panels than Gohan before 444, even considering that 443 is an almost all Gohan chapter). In 444 Goku takes the lead and never gives it back, while Gohan will have to content himself with looking at his father all dumbfounded.

The original claim was that Goku took the lead super late and that Gohan was supposed to be the hero all that time, and that is obviously wrong. Toriyama notices he cannot write a protagonist Gohan very early (as soon as 425), and then spends a dozen of chapters waving his hands until he can give the protagonism back to Goku.
 
So fuccboi is getting them gains. Nice to see... I think Beerus resents being a god of destruction, honestly. I think if he gets the super dragon balls, he'll wish to be stronger than Whis or something so that he doesn't ever have to listen to him again.

Either that or Whis and Beerus both hate being pawns to the higher gods and want to finally be rid of having to always make these decisions/etc. That's why they are always trying to find really strong people to replace them. Whis even jokes about this.

Somehow I feel EoZ is going to be retconned, and vegeta and goku replace Beerus/champa as the gods of destructions for universes 6 and 7.
 
Beerus really did break my boy Vegeta. This episode removed my hope that Beerus will ever be part of the squad. Vegeta has to fight him now. Unless he comes around or is forced to team up after the fight.
 
Beerus exists solely to be the lovable bastard of the show and give Goku and Vegeta a clear goal.

That is, to get to his level.
 
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nipple guy! Ah-ah so fany~ not really. I can understand to some extent awful and lazy designs being justified by the fact that those characters are never seen again after 1 or 2 fights but come on.
at least a couple of the the universe 6 team members seem interesting. some of those colored pictures in the OP are pretty terrible, especially compared to what you see in the manga. like the guy who seems the exact copy of Freeza but blue instead of purple looks a bit more diverse in the manga.

it's going to be fun to see Piccolo being destroyed in roughly half a second, unless he somehow had some secret insane (/impossible) training which might give him the chance to last for maybe a couple of panels.
Fuck u on about. Monaka is the best designer character we've had for years.

I agree with those saying champa is awesome.
 
Beerus can't die. He's a critical part of the universe and his death would end the universe. I imagine beerus is bored to death. He's like goku he likes to fight, and with nobody around his level it becomes a dull existence.
 
You are weirdly taking the character statements as the final truth when time and time again they are shown wrong.

Because they're shown to be wrong. You're questioning statements and judgments from the characters without any basis on the series' portrayal of those statements. Yes, I can't agree with that.

The SSJ3 example is the most obvious case here. Goku knows about SSJ3 eating time, and he had already done it by the time that he made that statement about how he could have killed Fat Buu. And yet you want to deny that statement and say that it was just Toriyama portraying him as arrogant, rather than what it obviously is, a retcon to hype Goku once he's going into the final battle as the "hero".

For starters, it is weird that Toriyama had spent some chapters setting up Gohan's secret identity and his school mates, just to waste it all on Kibito's fight.

But there was no set up there. The other school mates have no backstory or relevant relationship with Gohan. They're there because it'd be odd if everyone was just a nameless character, but there's nothing suggesting that they were ever supposed to be relevant beyond props in order to introduce Videl.

If you standard of "the statements aren't hinted to be questionable" holds, what do you make of Majin Vegeta vs Goku?

Majin Vegeta didn't know about SSJ3, obviously, and that's also mentioned later, but they were equal in SSJ2 form. Goku wasn't "massively holding back" in SSJ2, he was fighting with full power as a SSJ2, he just wasn't using his strongest form that would eat the time that he could stay in the human world.

but these plot points are not ever brought up again, not even in the epilogue.

Everyone agrees that Gohan wasn't the main character by that point, so that's rather moot. If he had remained the focus we could have seen some fallout from that after the Saga ended, but that wasn't the case.

This is factually wrong. Kaiohshin is interested in Gohan's hidden powers when he brings him to kill Dabura and stop Buu from coming out, yes, but Gohan getting the power unlocking has NOTHING to do with him being weaker than during the Cell saga.

Yes, if we're looking from an in-universe point of view, they aren't related. I already mentioned this in a previous post. What's important here is the narrative function of Gohan's loss of power. That loss of power leads to the other characters commenting on his hidden power and attempting to access it before we actually get to the Kaioshin. If he had no drop of power, although the plot could have followed the same lines, there would be no reason to urge him to attempt to use his hidden powers before getting to the Kaioshin, since he'd be using them already. So, Gohan's hidden powers being once again relevant and making him the strongest would come out of nowhere, rather than following a (narrative) build up - even if there's no actual cause and effect between those earlier mentions of his power and their awakening later. That's what my last post was about. I understand now that neither one of us will bulge from our views, but I want to make you at least understand what I'm actually trying to say.
 
Not sure why people want Picollo to be able to compete at a Saiyan's level. That would just make Saiyans no longer a special race when just any ol' alien can become as strong as gods. It's okay to enjoy a character and still have them not be universe-destroyers.

Glad to see Buu in the lineup though. They need to give more weight to the fact that Buu is extremely powerful.
 
Beerus can't die. He's a critical part of the universe and his death would end the universe. I imagine beerus is bored to death. He's like goku he likes to fight, and with nobody around his level it becomes a dull existence.
Beerus can die and he can be replaced, this has already been established.
 
Well, the manga has a volume release confirmed, so it's not just an ad. Anyway, both are based on AT's outline, and that can be seen by shared quotes and such, but each one also adds its own material and the manga likely has to cut in order to fit in the monthly schedule - for example, comparing with the recent episode, the manga had Bulma's line about worrying about what kind of wish Beerus would make, but it doesn't have the conversation where Beerus mention that he could wish to destroy all planets).

Technically, the manga so far also seems to have avoided including anime elements, making it in continuity with the original manga (like the movies were), while the anime often includes references to Z filler.

Yeah that's a good way to put it. I'm really curious how next week's episode will handle the
decision of the remaining two fighters, since they switched around how that played out with Beerus calling dibs on Monaka first in the show.
I'm liking that the anime is becoming different since it adds a level of mystery despite reading the manga chapters as they come out.
 
I'm curious to see how Whis and Beerus are going to be handled throughout the remaining ~70 episodes.

Will they become buddy buddy with the Z fighters in the end? Will Goku and Vegeta kill them? Will they be defeated by the next big bad?

I feel like they'll (or at least Whis will) be killed by someone else who sets up the next arc after whatever they do AFTER the tournament.

I wouldn't mind everyone getting stupid fucking strong if it meant that the group became Goku/Vegeta/Beerus/Gohan/Piccolo/Gotenks. It would give another non-Saiyan fighter which we desperately need for the "good guys".

I'm so sick of Super Saiyans. Need to see Piccolo and Beerus lay some smackdown on some baddies.
if it goes far enough, without a doubt berrus will join them
 
To celebrate Gohan's return to glory, I made a thing last night!

FcLEvln.jpg


Suck it haters!



Boy, I'm gonna be really crushed when he eventually jobs.....

Kind of pissed that they changed his hair again. By the time I saw the preview last night, I was almost done with the pic. Just didn't have it in me to start the hair over.

Also really half assed the coloring, even by my low standard. Wherever, try to better the next time.
 
Nah, I doubt it.
Buu was in a promo art for the anime team too, not only in the manga chapter. The manga itself had already hinted that Buu wouldn't be relevant too (Piccolo joins the main cast as soon as the team is decided, while Buu gets only one panel showing him joining the team and then only appears again for the written test)
The manga is just an advert. Things are different between the manga and the anime. It would be a great way to throw in a twist since people still seem to rely on the manga to know whats happening ahead of time. And the manga is missing soo much we have no idea what is happening if we had just read it.

The manga is just an ad for the anime. There's already plenty in the latest episode that wasn't in it and the same looks true for episode 30.

Thats pretty much what has happened the entire time. Basically what I think is going down is :
Buu is picked, they travel one change is now Gohan is amongst them, Buu fails test Gohan replaces.
Basically the manga being bullshit would be the best. And it would explain soo much.
 
The SSJ3 example is the most obvious case here. Goku knows about SSJ3 eating time, and he had already done it by the time that he made that statement about how he could have killed Fat Buu. And yet you want to deny that statement and say that it was just Toriyama portraying him as arrogant, rather than what it obviously is, a retcon to hype Goku once he's going into the final battle as the "hero".
He is being super arrogant! he is about to try to fight Majin Buu and lose! Look at Goku's smug face as he says "you missed it" to Vegeta in 510. It is one of the smugest Goku's faces ever.


That brings up a good point I wanted to make. By the time Gohan is in the kaioh planet, he was not intended to be the hero of the final battle at all. Gohan was just another plot point to stall time until it was Goku's time to fight again.

The proof is Mr Satan.

Around the same time Gohan is training, Mr Satan gets his best chapters, where he redeems Buu. Good Fat Buu is created from this, and Mr Satan will go on to magically survive every Buu attack. Now, question yourself. If Goku was retconned only at the point of the final battle as the hero, if Mystic Gohan was going to be the victor against Buu...what use does Gohan have for Mr Satan?

None. Only Goku has an use for Mr Satan. Mr Satan is useless to Gohan. This shows that Goku was planned to get the final fight against Buu as early as when Gohan was "training" on Kaioh's planet. Probably earlier.

But there was no set up there. The other school mates have no backstory or relevant relationship with Gohan. They're there because it'd be odd if everyone was just a nameless character, but there's nothing suggesting that they were ever supposed to be relevant beyond props in order to introduce Videl.

That'd be only acceptable if Gohan had not been left wondering about his secret identity. This is clearly a dangling plot thread from an aborted GS arc.


Majin Vegeta didn't know about SSJ3, obviously, and that's also mentioned later, but they were equal in SSJ2 form. Goku wasn't "massively holding back", he just wasn't using his strongest form that would eat the time that he could stay in the human world.

The whole "eating time" issue is not brought up until after the Vegeta/Goku fight. The reader and Vegeta get the impression that Goku is fighting going all out.

The important part is that Vegeta is a terrible judge of someone's power. Go check 404, when Goku announces that Gohan is to beat up Cell. Vegeta is shocked because he thinks "the brat" is not up to it. When in 405 Gohan releases power, Vegeta is shocked once more.


Yes, if we're looking from an in-universe point of view, they aren't related. I already mentioned this in a previous point. What's important here is the narrative function of Gohan's loss of power. That loss of power leads to the other characters commenting on his hidden power and attempting to access it before we actually get to the Kaioshin. If he had no drop of power, although the plot could have followed the same lines, there would be no reason to urge him to attempt to use his hidden powers. So, Gohan's hidden powers being once again relevant and making him the strongest would come out of nowhere, rather than following a (narrative) build up - even if there's no actual cause and effect between those earlier mentions of his power and their awakening later. That's what my last post was about. I understand now that neither one of us will bulge from our views, but I want to make you at least understand what I'm actually trying to say.

Gohan's loss of power only narrative function is to bring back the reader's attention to Goku and Vegeta.

Goku's speech in 458 about Gohan needing to "get angry to unleash his hidden power" that he gives in front of Kaiohshin reflects the Cell saga. During Cell, Gohan is supposed to be stronger than Cell, but at the start of the fight Cell isn't impressed cause Gohan ain't angry, so he tries to get forth Gohan's anger. Goku's speech mentions Cell, yes. But it does not bring up Gohan being weaker. The weakening is something only Vegeta cares about, not Goku. Goku's speech mirrors Gohan's own words in 405. Goku is only reminding Gohan of that. Go read 405.

405's Gohan: "Ever since I was little, I would get really angry and lose control of myself and get more powerful than I ever imagined. _My father must have realized that_"

Gohan's father INDEED realized that.

406's Goku: "Just wait until Gohan gets angry, he will probably shoot up in strength"

Which mirrors:

458's Goku: "Get angry, Gohan. Remember when you got angry against Cell and went all out? When you get angry, no one can stop you."

So Goku's speech does not need at all Gohan having become weaker. It is just a direct reference to the Cell saga. Goku could give the same speech without Vegeta ever mentioning that Gohan had become weaker, because Gohan's gimmick during Raditz/Saiyan/Freeza saga is getting angry and then releasing enormous power. Goku is only referencing that. Even with Gohan at his peak has Goku saying "once he gets angry he will get super powerful".

So the narrative function of Gohan loss of power has nothing to do with

-Goku's speech (Goku gave the same speech during Cell)
-Kaiohshin's interest in Gohan (which is motivated by Goku's speech)
-Old Kaiohshin's power unlock (who has never heard of Cell, who only chose to give Gohan a power unlock due to random luck)
 
ElFly I think you're either going in circles or reading into things way too deep. Toriyama had a lot more freedom during the Buu arc and it shows. It's as simple as that.
 
Not sure why people want Picollo to be able to compete at a Saiyan's level. That would just make Saiyans no longer a special race when just any ol' alien can become as strong as gods. It's okay to enjoy a character and still have them not be universe-destroyers.

Freeza already did it so whatever
 
Beerus really did break my boy Vegeta. This episode removed my hope that Beerus will ever be part of the squad. Vegeta has to fight him now. Unless he comes around or is forced to team up after the fight.

Vegeta just can't get enough of being the servant boy apparently.
 
Honestly what I want to see from Gohan is for him to just LOSE his shit.
Let the big bad that comes to Earth during the time everyone is away attack Videl. Let him go apeshit. Hell, why don't they give him a new form more akin to false Super Saiyan? Have him keep his mystic design of powering up without the blonde hair, but give him the Super Saiyan aura.
 
None. Only Goku has an use for Mr Satan. Mr Satan is useless to Gohan. This shows that Goku was planned to get the final fight against Buu as early as when Gohan was "training" on Kaioh's planet. Probably earlier.

It's hard to talk about complete what ifs. If Gohan had remained the main character, depending on the exact point where the change happened, either he'd be much closer to Super Buu in strength, or he'd be closer to Super Buu with Gotenks absorbed. Either way, Satan could be used to make Buu hesitate giving an opening for Gohan.

That'd be only acceptable if Gohan had not been left wondering about his secret identity. This is clearly a dangling plot thread from an aborted GS arc.
Like I said before, I think something like that would have been dealt in the saga's epilogue if Gohan had continued the focus, but, because it wasn't, it ends up dropped. You've argued before that even by that point Gohan wasn't the main character anymore, so I don't see how it could be part of some immediate dropped set up following your own argument.

The whole "eating time" issue is not brought up until after the Vegeta/Goku fight. The reader and Vegeta get the impression that Goku is fighting going all out.

SSJ3 itself was only brought up after the fight. My point is that he judged the power of the form that he could see correctly. I don't see how being unable to detect an unused form makes him an horrible judge of power.


So Goku's speech does not need at all Gohan having become weaker. It is just a direct reference to the Cell saga.
It needs it because if was just as strong as he was during Cell, he'd already be using that supposedly hidden strength, so talking about it again would be just odd. The SSJ2 awakening was supposed to be Gohan unleashing his hidden power as far as Goku knew, so telling him to unleash even further hidden power would make no sense in context, but it's important because it brings up his hidden power to relevancy again before the Kaioshin's appearance.

When Goku tells Gohan (post SSJ2) to unleash his full power during the Kamehameha duel against Cell, it's because Gohan was telling him that he had lost 50% of his power, he isn't just randomly telling him to draw more hidden power from nowhere. So, the Buu Saga wasn't even the first time that a power loss is then followed by Goku telling Gohan that he can draw more power with his anger. It was used for the climax of the Cell Saga.

Also, I've been wondering about this... If you think the power loss only exists to remove attention from Gohan, what's the point of making him the strongest in the universe afterwards?
 
All things about 'the show says..' aside, the only reason Gohan works up till the end of Cell is due to writing structure and the Cell saga completing all arcs into one neat little bundle, where it really should have ended. Don't get me wrong, Satan is an good gag character (and his dub voice is awesome), but all arcs had been completed to a point where the only one left was expanding Vegeta's that was already closed with Cell (his relation to future Trunks ending the 'Renegade for life' aspect of his character, leaving him with a future that didn't just involve beating Goku), but left enough wiggle room to do something with it during Buu.

People going all 'Gay for Gohan' don't seem to take into account that his re-do was already done in Buu for the sake of somewhat illustrating that his arc had concluded and he was entering regular life (which puts him outside any plot, much like Ox King and Yajirobe). I mean, the ridiculousness of Super Saiyan 3 was there because there wasn't anything else left to do, not because it's a good transformation or anything.

I kind of want to illustrate all this by discussing arcs and symmetry at length, but I don't think anyone here would care for that. The very short version is that Gohan's arc into power beyond that of his alternate future could only work because events and characters are 'symmetric' (the same, but slight different, like the opposing helix bands of DNA) between the alternate future and the main timeline's course. Examples are that Gohan became a SSJ in both, but managed something greater when Goku remained alive and actually bothered to properly train his kid for once...or spend any time with him for that matter, because we're talking Goku here. Similarly Goku still dies in both, the androids are different but still destroyed in all lines (for different reasons), Gero dies in all lines but under different conditions, and Vegeta lives but is humiliated over and over until he is forced to change himself (thereby concluding that arc, because there is nothing 'past' the death-rebirth symmetric arc that would interesting to show.). Gohan's push into greater power by this difference is even illustrated, literally, by having Goku appear in his final attack on Cell, then walking into Cell's obliteration on his own, center frame and all.

While it's tempting to think of this as mere plot with 'handing over the torch', there is more at work there, particularly in terms of structure to make it work. And it's the reason that particular climax is the highest point the show reached, because that was literally supposed to be the end of it. Yes, I know Freeza was supposed to be as well, but that left the Kami-Piccolo arc open, as well as Gohan's future, Vegeta versus Goku, and some other things. Cell saga tied them all off neatly into a natural climax beyond which there's basically no more story to tell.

Which kind of brings me to Super and asking the question of how it is going to create tension in meaningful arcs when it only now (after BoG and RoF) has the chance to set them up. Vegeta-Goku is done, so that can't be it (the idea of others being way stronger than either is the replacement for it though). Gohan's and Piccollo's arcs as 'rise to power' and 'dual identity' (Good-evil; Earthling-Namekian) are done too, so either they're given a very different one or they won't be meaningful characters going forward. Note that Trunks and Goten were meant as an opposite for Goku-Vegeta (mini-Goku and Trunks having no problem working together, even fusing where Goku and Vegeta would refuse to), and with that conflict / arc gone, there is nothing left for them to do.

Oh well, off to watch what that Nipples the not-Echidna has to offer.
 
The arc has goten it's automatically GOAT. But it's obvious not to look to deep into it in some cases. He didn't know who he wanted to beat buu

Having anyone beat Buu in the traditional Dragon Ball way would've undermined the theme of the entire arc. It was always going to be Mr. Satan.
 
Great episode

Love Beerus' response to Shenron lol. And seeing Bulma embarrass Vegeta in public was great. Hope that the teasing of Beerus turning evil is just a tease because I really love the character as a SORTA good/neutral guy. Champa is also a wonderful character. Next week's preview looks great too.

Hope we get more arcs after this tourney. I love the show despite the shoddy animation here and there.
 
You made the mistake in thinking its a front. Love the lil guy, tag just makes it better.

Don't mind me asking, but why? I understand if people like Piccolo, Gohan, Bardock, Krillin, Master Roshi, Bulma, Tien, even Vegeta. They all did something, there is something to them etc. Pretty much everyone. But Goten did fuck all, like nothing and he isn't interesting as a character. Kid got nothing.
 
Vegeta just can't get enough of being the servant boy apparently.

Beerus is going to be the goal for Vegeta and Goku to reach, no doubt in my mind Vegeta is going to beat the shit out of Beerus eventually. It's obvious Vegeta hates him, but can't do much at the moment since he's weak as fuck.

Great episode

Love Beerus' response to Shenron lol. And seeing Bulma embarrass Vegeta in public was great. Hope that the teasing of Beerus turning evil is just a tease because I really love the character as a SORTA good/neutral guy. Champa is also a wonderful character. Next week's preview looks great too.

Hope we get more arcs after this tourney. I love the show despite the shoddy animation here and there.

Oh dear, what did that cow do now to poor Vegeta?

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These are some short mofos. Goten is aging in reverse.

This is some curious case of Benjamin Button shit right there, Trunks looks about 7 max and Goten 3, at a stretch 4.
 
Beerus is going to be the goal for Vegeta and Goku to reach, no doubt in my mind Vegeta is going to beat the shit out of Beerus eventually. It's obvious Vegeta hates him, but can't do much at the moment since he's weak as fuck.



Oh dear, what did that cow do now to poor Vegeta?


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Beerus is going to be the goal for Vegeta and Goku to reach, no doubt in my mind Vegeta is going to beat the shit out of Beerus eventually. It's obvious Vegeta hates him, but can't do much at the moment since he's weak as fuck.

So..Freeza all over again? Cue Vegeta getting rekt, after getting cocky and thinking he can do it. Bets on where his next grave will be?
 
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