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[E3-MS] Why Ninja Theory joined Xbox.
- Thread starter Leonidas
- Start date
Revolutionary
Member
I'm aware of the post it was replying to, thanks - that's the reason I replied with derision because excusing valid criticisms as "hate" was an incredibly stupid thing to do. And yes, they are valid criticisms. A AAA studio relegated to B-tier trash is not a good look, as evidenced by the reviews and player impressions alike. It's pure GamePass shovelware. It doesn't fucking matter if it was half-complete before the acquisition - the point is that Microsoft said yes, we want that on Game Pass. And no, despite all your kicking and screaming: the amount of devs is indeed completely irrelevant. It has the Ninja Theory name, it's not some sub-studio like Ninja Theory Indie or some shit. Stop making pathetic excuses for their relegation to B-tier crap in this instance.
I wasn't judging the potential of an entire studio on a tiny fraction. I was judging their potential on THEIR ENTIRE HISTORY OF GAMES, including their most recent "hit": Bleeding Edge.
Lmao, this retard (see apology in next post) thinks I'm a console warrior. I've got more important things to do than cheerlead a piece of plastic, thanks. But I now see why you're being so obnoxious about me laughing at the notion of a GamePass title receiving undeserved "hate"
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VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
The criticism wasn't valid in THIS specific case for the reasons already given. That GAMEPASS had nothing to do with the way the game turned out. That was the friggin point. Sorry if you can't understand that.
No matter the caliber of a studio, it doesn't mean they can't try to make AA level, or B tier stuff if THEY want to. Which THEY did in this instance well before they joined MS.
And I don't know but the reason the poster brought up "hate" prob has something to do with people who seemingly are so quick to pull out their "hate boners" for anything gamepass as can be seen here...
Matt Booty: Xbox studio exclusives won't be 90 hour AAA games but as close to AAA as possible.
In a recent interview, Matt Booty (head of Microsoft studios) stated that, games from the recently acquired studios aren't going to be "90 hour AAA games" but games that can be close to AAA games built by small teams.
And no, I'm not saying they shouldn't be concerned if it's not what they want from the service. I'm saying that this is a very bad example for the reasons given.
Now, if you want to judge the game specifically then I'm all for it. I think it's lacking as well. I tend to err on the side of "it's prob going to be bad" if I hear early on in development about all kinds of diversity crap. I think "get woke go broke." actually has some truth to it but I always try to reserve judgement. But, again, in this instance, gamepass has nothing to do with the way the game turned out.
Are you the other poster? Because I wasn't talking about you, that 's what the OTHER poster was doing... Though I can't find anywhere in your posts that you could have possibly been trying to make the point that you where judging their potential based on that...I wasn't judging the potential of an entire studio on a tiny fraction. I was judging their potential on THEIR ENTIRE HISTORY OF GAMES, including their most recent "hit": Bleeding Edge.
I never said you where a console warrior dude. I was just learning the language of the natives so to speak. If you don't like what you hear, maybe try to change your obnoxious attitude, friend. I'm not normally hostile like this, especially to those I don't agree with, check my history if you don't believe me. I'd rather everyone try to be less hostile and get along.Lmao, this retard thinks I'm a console warrior. I've got more important things to do than cheerlead a piece of plastic, thanks. But I now see why you're being so obnoxious about me laughing at the notion of a GamePass title receiving undeserved "hate"
As it stands, with your attitude, I'd rather be changing my kids stinky diaper than interacting with you. So if it continues, then you know why I'm not responding.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Well since you brought it up... Was trying to deescalate the situation. Was just trying to see if we had any common ground. Got to the end of the first page and then I decided that I don't have the time right now and chose to just let you see through my post history that I'm no fanboy and I'd rather not have a hostile convo. Believe it or not, not everyone is out to get you mate.Edit: Hmm, what could you be looking for?
Pallas
Gold Member
Reading all these old posts about how this is great as they can make their epic sprawling narrative-driven titles with massive budgets, seriously underestimated how many of these first-party studios would just become work-horses for throw-away gamepass titles.
Hellblade 2 and Project Mara looks promising but single out a game that was already on production before Microsoft purchased them and is consider a side project. Lol Never change, warrior.
Revolutionary
Member
I responded with attitude because your insinuation that I didn't understand my own joke was perplexing, and also because I knew that responding would lead to some bullshit dragged out 'argument' over something completely unimportant.The criticism wasn't valid in THIS specific case for the reasons already given. That GAMEPASS had nothing to do with the way the game turned out. That was the friggin point. Sorry if you can't understand that.
No matter the caliber of a studio, it doesn't mean they can't try to make AA level, or B tier stuff if THEY want to. Which THEY did in this instance well before they joined MS.
And I don't know but the reason the poster brought up "hate" prob has something to do with people who seemingly are so quick to pull out their "hate boners" for anything gamepass as can be seen here...
Matt Booty: Xbox studio exclusives won't be 90 hour AAA games but as close to AAA as possible.
In a recent interview, Matt Booty (head of Microsoft studios) stated that, games from the recently acquired studios aren't going to be "90 hour AAA games" but games that can be close to AAA games built by small teams.www.neogaf.com
And no, I'm not saying they shouldn't be concerned if it's not what they want from the service. I'm saying that this is a very bad example for the reasons given.
Now, if you want to judge the game specifically then I'm all for it. I think it's lacking as well. I tend to err on the side of "it's prob going to be bad" if I hear early on in development about all kinds of diversity crap. I think "get woke go broke." actually has some truth to it but I always try to reserve judgement. But, again, in this instance, gamepass has nothing to do with the way the game turned out.
Are you the other poster? Because I wasn't talking about you, that 's what the OTHER poster was doing... Though I can't find anywhere in your posts that you could have possibly been trying to make the point that you where judging their potential based on that...
I never said you where a console warrior dude. I was just learning the language of the natives so to speak. If you don't like what you hear, maybe try to change your obnoxious attitude, friend. I'm not normally hostile like this, especially to those I don't agree with, check my history if you don't believe me. I'd rather everyone try to be less hostile and get along.
As it stands, with your attitude, I'd rather be changing my kids stinky diaper than interacting with you. So if it continues, then you know why I'm not responding.
Maybe I pushed it too far, and for that I apologize. I rarely (if ever) call people names; it was out of character. I just really disliked the insinuation that I'm a console warrior shitting on Microsoft/Nintendo/Sony/Epic/whatever just because A/B/C.
Having said that, I really don't agree that Game Pass had nothing to do with Bleeding Edge's quality. According to the other poster, it was shelved, right? So, after the acquisition, Microsoft looked at Ninja Theory's slate of incomplete games and thought, "yeah, that'll be perfect for Game Pass", polished it up and shipped it in record time so it could be March's spotlight game or whatever. To me, the sequence of events is clear as day. If you can't see that then... that's fine, I guess. I'm really not interested in dragging out this conversation any further to be honest lol
Regardless, I hope for the best for Ninja Theory's future endeavors, I really do. As I posted in the first page of this thread:
I'm hopeful, but wary. And Bleeding Edge was not a good first impression of the acquisition.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I don't think gamepass had anything to do with the quality as in I don't think it dictated anything design or game-play wise. Since, like you said, the game was already nearly finished. It just happened to be something MS thought would be a good fit. Especially since It's a genre that they don't already have as far as I'm aware. So the devs in question at NT received the funding to polish it up, market it a bit, and ship it. Plus, part of the deal when acquiring NT was that they where allowed to make the games they wanted. Who knows, maybe this was part of that deal.
The reality is, that many studios and devs have side projects like these that they wish they could have funding and publishing for but it's rare that it ever happens.
Just so you know, I'd gladly cede the point to you if this was a project dictated by MS through a gamepass initiative. But We'll have to agree to disagree for the time being. I'm as hopeful as anyone that gamepass doesn't turn into a trash service that just pushes AA and indie stuff. Though I think that would still have it's place as long as MS as a whole still pushed out AAA's. But that is a different discussion all together lol.
Also, you've earned some mad respect from me mate. Takes the biggest of men to pause and walk something back. I really mean that.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
You mean like all of those Sony studios that were closed and faded out of existence.
989 Studios (closed in 2005)
Bigbig Studios(closed in 2012)
Contrail(closed in 2000)
Evolution Studios(closed in 2016)
Incognito Entertainment(closed in 2009)
Studio Liverpool(closed in 2012)
Zipper Interactive(closed in 2012)
Guerrilla Cambridge(closed in 2017)
Team Ico(closed in 2011)
Manchester Studio(closed in 2020)
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Both Bleeding Edge and Grounded existed before the acquisition. Lets just completely ignore Hellblade II and Project Mara to fit the narrative.Reading all these old posts about how this is great as they can make their epic sprawling narrative-driven titles with massive budgets, seriously underestimated how many of these first-party studios would just become work-horses for throw-away gamepass titles.
Hostile_18
Banned
I agree but this is a world where if a game scores less than 80 here, most wouldnt buy it.
In their defence money is tight, now more than ever so it would have to be priced accordingly.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
So you mean Heavenly Sword, Enslaved, Hellblade and a few others?I wasn't judging the potential of an entire studio on a tiny fraction. I was judging their potential on THEIR ENTIRE HISTORY OF GAMES, including their most recent "hit": Bleeding Edge.
Amazing games...
And having a sub team creating some smaller experimental games from time to time is good for a studio.
Also, If Gamepass leads to those smaller games having a chance to get released I just see a win/win situation.
If it's shit, well, just don't play it. But there might be some great little gems there.
But if the only thing you can play is EYY EYY EYY games with HUUUUUGE Budgets, than this is not for you, I guess.
I am looking forward to their next games.
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Rightisright
Banned
The salt. Its so salty.
Flintty
Member
Reading all these old posts about how this is great as they can make their epic sprawling narrative-driven titles with massive budgets, seriously underestimated how many of these first-party studios would just become work-horses for throw-away gamepass titles.
I think it’s important to point out that whilst the gameplay isn’t great (in my opinion) the actual art of creating the game, from visuals to performance, is superb. It’s a polished game technically, it’s just that the concept is a bit flat. At least they had a pop at it though. I’ve no doubt about the talent of the studio - this game missed the mark but they’ll come back with something else and hopefully it’ll stick.
I love how sometimes gamers are talking about "give them freedom to make whatever they want" and when Microsoft gave NT freedom and final product is Bleeding Edge it is bad, because Microsoft for sure forced them to make it. Ignoring fact, that Bleeding Edge was in preproduction before acquisition which was state numerous times.
Look, I played Bleeding Edge for solid 15 hours. It is fun game.
Would I buy it without Game Pass? Probably not.
Could it be done better? Of course - there are big lag problems and quantity of content problems
"Giving creative freedom" doesn't mean they will produce only games that I want. It means they will produce games they want. And if that game is a passion project for Creative Director and small group of devs, then by all means go for it. But blaming Microsoft because NT wanted to make this game? Just get real for a second
Revolutionary
Look, I played Bleeding Edge for solid 15 hours. It is fun game.
Would I buy it without Game Pass? Probably not.
Could it be done better? Of course - there are big lag problems and quantity of content problems
"Giving creative freedom" doesn't mean they will produce only games that I want. It means they will produce games they want. And if that game is a passion project for Creative Director and small group of devs, then by all means go for it. But blaming Microsoft because NT wanted to make this game? Just get real for a second
Revolutionary
Leyasu
Banned
I think that you misunderstood some of the things that microsoft were looking for in the new studios that they purchased. As we have seen with Bleeding edge, and the soon to be released Obsidian game, Microsoft wanted studios that were/are capable of doing main and side projects at the same time. Or as in the case of playground, are working on an RPG and forza horizon at the same time.Why yes, you did miss the point!
Allow me to break it down for you:
Bleeding Edge (the first Microsoft Ninja Theory game) is pure Game Pass shovelware, and the person I quoted was trying to excuse its existence and poor reviews with "bu bu their next game will be AAA, just you wait!", and "b-baka, you're just a hater!". My post was making fun of the "hate" part, specifically.
Still following? Good!
The amount of developers that actually worked on the game is completely irrelevant. What matters here is that Bleeding Edge is EXACTLY the kind of B-tier game that many people said would come out of these acquisitions. I'm not saying there won't be AAA games (there obviously will be), but they're ALSO still relegated to Game Pass crap with their B team.
Understand now, or shall I explain further?
There was a thread the other day on the other place where someone showed the expansion (in terms of people working in the studios) of all their acquired studios. They are all growing and they all have open positions.
Because of gamepass, side projects that before would have been deemed not worth making will now see the light of day. It is a good strategy. No matter how many times people try to paint it as a negative.
There is nothing wrong with having smaller gamepass games and having larger more expensive games created at the same time. This bullshit needs to stop.
SaucyJack
Member
Bit of a padded list (see above) the although several of those are sadly missed.
You could have had Sony Online Entertainment though which was sold off and is now Daybreak.
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SaucyJack
Member
Totally agree.
I am pleased to see Xbox Game Studios expanding, it’s been an obvious weakness for decades.
It's obviously perfectly OK for not every game to be “AAA”, you need variety. It’s OK for studios to be producing smaller games for Gamepass. It’s a good strategy.
I think it’s also perfectly OK to accept that, at this time, studios like Obsidian, inXile, Undead Labs and Ninja Theory are nowhere near the level of Sony 1st Party and others like Double Fine and Compulsion never will be. Doesn’t mean that they won’t produce fun games and give Xbox the more rounded first party offering it desperately needs.
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McCheese
Member
Yes, but no (but yes).
Ninja Theory: We want to make shorter, experimental titles
Microsoft: Hey, that sounds like a great match for our Gamepass business model!
Fans: Whoooo, Ninja Theory now have infinite money for epic AAA titles!
They are just deluding themselves. first-party studios have to make games around Gamepass, which means smaller low-budget titles (that can still be great games), or large GaaS titles (that again, can still be great games). But the expectation that Hellblade 2 will be an epic AAA-title, or that Bleeding Edge is just a "one-off" is delusional.
This is the new normal for Microsoft studios, Let's not forget Forza had to add loot-boxes for to retain their AAA budget in a post-gamepass world.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Sure, but we will see how things are going to be. But I am just operating, based on what these companies said, prior to acquisition. Or not prior, but when they announce it. And when it comes to loot boxes, as far as I know Loot Boxes in FM7 was never paid with money... But they obviously were in Gears 4. As far as I remember. And that was before GamePass.
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Dory16
Banned
Dory16
Banned
What's the new normal? The Outer Worlds or Grounded ? Because both are coming out after Obsidian's acquisition. You're not making any sense.
Dory16
Banned
Ninja Theory and Obsidian can definitely compete. We'll see what happens with unlimited funding and time. Sony's first parties like Sucker Punch are allowed to put out a game every 6 years. You give that to those 2 studios and the most powerful hardware, I'm willing to bet that the output is the same or better.
The Initiative, Playground, 343, Turn 10 and The Coalition are all made for AAA. This is the first gen that MS is going into with a studio arsenal comparable to Sony's. And let's not kid ourselves. The ability to get 2nd/3rd party deals will make a big difference. Bloodborne, FF7 remake and The Order weren't made by 1st parties.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Trajectory of Ninja Theory:
Starts out (2003-2007) doing original IP for platform holders. Kung Fu Chaos, and Heavenly Sword. Both flop.
Tries to go for artistic credibility (name contribs like Alex Garland and Andy Serkis) with Enslaved (2010) for Bandai Namco. Flops.
Work for hire with Capcom's DMC (2013), does ok-ish, but is controversial and they aren't invited back.
Next few years (2013-2017) show a marked decline in project scope.
Some contract work for hire on Disney Infinity, Dexed a VR thing for PS4 and Steam that noone seems to have heard of, and of course Hellblade.
A year later (2018) they sell to MS, and in 2020 we get Bleeding Edge.
Not to be a dick, but that's not the sort of track record that has suitors beating down the door.
Starts out (2003-2007) doing original IP for platform holders. Kung Fu Chaos, and Heavenly Sword. Both flop.
Tries to go for artistic credibility (name contribs like Alex Garland and Andy Serkis) with Enslaved (2010) for Bandai Namco. Flops.
Work for hire with Capcom's DMC (2013), does ok-ish, but is controversial and they aren't invited back.
Next few years (2013-2017) show a marked decline in project scope.
Some contract work for hire on Disney Infinity, Dexed a VR thing for PS4 and Steam that noone seems to have heard of, and of course Hellblade.
A year later (2018) they sell to MS, and in 2020 we get Bleeding Edge.
Not to be a dick, but that's not the sort of track record that has suitors beating down the door.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
They were absorbed by SCEA. Thats the same for Microsoft and Digital Anvil.
It was an actual studio by Codemasters employees that they bought and closed.
Nowhere it indicates that they were merged into Cambridge studio.
Team Ico members left to form genDESIGN and are now going multi-platform. Although under SIE Japan, it was always a separate studio.
Team Ico - Wikipedia
Its still a studio that they created.
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
I can assure you that was not the case for Sony. If they wanted to buy a studio, they will get the the studio head drunk and make them sign off all assets to Sony, not a single dollar was spent.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Interview between Tameem Antoniades and Michèle Lamy
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Self
Member
Given their track record it is reasonable to assume that bleeding edge is a "one-off", an experiment.
Hellblade 2 may very well turn out to be a AAA title if sufficient time and budget is granted.
Dory16
Banned
I can tell she’s French but who is that woman?
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Michèle Lamy - Wikipedia
D.Final
Banned
Yeah
I also think that Bleeding Edge it's just an experiment for the team.
The true AAA big game for them is definitely Hellblade 2
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I am surprised they are still supporting Bleeding Edge. I know it just came out but I figgured support for it would be minimal but they are doing full on rebalancing of characters. I wonder what the legs of this game will be.
D.Final
Banned
Maybe at least one year
Insane Metal
Member
What the fuck
Is that a witch?
Maybe the new Senua is based on the cult she is part of?
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
itsjustJEFF
Member
Funding. You can't make games if you can't keep the lights on and the dev's paid. I just hope that expectations are kept in check. Not in terms of game quality, but in terms of game sales. I hope they are some leeway in terms of sales. They may have bigger budget this time, but they're still a relatively "unknown" dev, at least when it comes to the mainstream gamers. I didn't play Hellblade, but by all account the ones who have played it loved it. I think with some time, their sales will match their quality of games. And they could become a strong studio for Xbox.