Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
id actually like an "light souls" game.
I dont have time nor energy to play games like dark souls.
I dont have time nor energy to play games like dark souls.
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Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"
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MidnightCowboy
Member
This is what I'm talking about. I'm sure there are numerous people like you all across the world. I don't see a problem with this unless it detracts from the core game. People who want a hardcore experience get it, people who want something easier get it.
This is what I don't get. Everyone just assumes that they'll dumb down the difficulty with out any evidence. Idealistically, every game should be easy to learn, hard to master.
Combat doesn't exist in a vacuum where the controls and the animations alone can be used to judge its quality. It's leveraged against encounter design and the difficulty of said encounters, and once you tone down the difficulty, or give an option to take it down a notch, that 'fun combat' loses its lustre.
Toss in the communal aspect of the Souls games and I think having separate difficulty options at all is a bad idea.
The controls are intuitive and responsive, there are no walls of text to get through, no fifteen-minute cutscenes, no forced tutorial. You get in, and after ten or fifteen minutes you're well on your way through the game, having defeated the first boss, and been taken to a new location. It's easy to learn, hard to master. The accessibility quirks people talk about are all facets of the game that are required to master it, not start it.
Nobody is forcing you to play on the easy difficulty. Why ruin others people fun? If they want a easier game, let them play on the lower difficulty.
No its not, it does a insanely poor job explaining mechanics. You could easily go though Demon's Souls without knowing about the world tendency mechanic. I would also argue that its not hard to master, just time consuming.
I think the conversations in this thread have worked to demonstrate my point. There are a lot of people here who fetishize bullshit in games and act like any effort to include anyone else at all ever is a personal betrayal of the ultimate magnitude, it's ridiculous. I'm not saying they couldn't fuck it up with DS2 but chicken little "the sky is falling" posts on the basis of a few words don't really serve much of a purpose devoid of any discussion of what sort of changes you wouldn't want to see, the sort of interesting discussion that has flourished here since my post.
Seriously though, a minimap would destroy the game, i don't think they'd be such idiots.
The problem behind "chasing" big audiences is that your modest popularity comes exactly from your ability to fit in a precise niche, not from your pretty face.
The moment you chase another audience you grow out of that niche and fall flat on your face, we've seen this happen far too many times this gen.
They will never get the Elder Scroll popularity, because they are completely different games with completely different selling points and already TeS "sold out" on a lot of its pecuiliarities.
sooo... TeS started out as a more Niche rpg and wore away it's rough edges by "selling out" it's peculiarities and returned massive sales for the effort by oblivion and skyrim.... What lessons are we to learn from this?
MidnightCowboy
Member
I certainly agree with your first point. For me, the combat in the Souls games would not be as fun if the games were easier. I enjoy the patience it requires and few things are more satisfying then when you beat a boss that has been wrecking your shit for a while. However, many others have expressed an interest in playing the same game, only with easier enemies. If they want to one shot every enemy and fly through the game, let them do it as far as I'm concerned. Just as long as I get to do it my way.
As for your second point, do you mean like with summons and invasions and whatnot? I'm sure they could have separate servers for the difficulty levels. Or maybe easy mode could be an offline mode where you can't do that stuff.
IrishNinja
Member
your examples aren't bad, the anti-invasion covenant is basically guys who play offline now though. i could go for something giving more humanity if the system stays the same.
again though, proper easy mode is just good servers allowing functional summoning. that's already a core part of the experience and entirely optional, but again namco kinda bungled it last time segregating them.
also some of GAF said Royal in demons was easy mode, it may help at the very very beginning but it's not that big a deal, especially a few hours in.
this whole "i dont have time to learn game (x)" boggles my mind though.
to go back & play planescape torment, i had to find a working version, then learn the D&D system it employed. should a game like that be given a simplified bioware system because i want it to be more like dragon age 2? no, there's already numerous experiences on the market for my tastes.
assuming every game follows a similar design philosophy, sure. thankfully they do not
that elder scrolls and the souls series are vastly different games for reasons that should be obvious upon playing both? again, this comparison is central to why people find the analogy/angle of this discussion unpalatable.
so aside from a dev cycle that risks breaking the fine-tuned balance of said difficulty (harsh at times, but fair), you'd like to further separate servers, even though that was a big part of the problem of the last one?
i really don't get you guys. go play demons souls, im sure there's still a somewhat active community, and ideally you can summon people near your level to help. that's the answer, not this stuff.
I loved Morrowind. Disliked Oblivion and Skyrim.
They dumbed down the series and lost a customer.
You also have examples that failed horribly like Ninja Gaiden 3 who failed to attract new comers and got dropped by its old audience.
Fix The Scientist
Member
Those developer comments gave me chills, this could be a fucking disaster slowly unfolding before our eyes.
Adding an easy mode to the Souls games is easy as pie.
Add an item that allowes some form of saving/respawning at fog gates, and have a class start with that. (And throw in a targeted summoning system too, aka co-op)
It's still the same old game for those who want that. And for the people who aren't as strong gamers or are just not patient enough to go trecking to a boss multiple times in order to beat it, you reduce the barrier of entry.
Add an item that allowes some form of saving/respawning at fog gates, and have a class start with that. (And throw in a targeted summoning system too, aka co-op)
It's still the same old game for those who want that. And for the people who aren't as strong gamers or are just not patient enough to go trecking to a boss multiple times in order to beat it, you reduce the barrier of entry.
Backfoggen
Banned
I think they'll just explain some of the systems going on in Dark Souls better and more straightforward. Instead of just putting you into "Way of White" for example, they'll explain the effects of the covenant. Maybe even drop the soapstone multiplayer stuff in favor of something more server browser like.
I highly doubt its going to be a way easier game and that they're going to add an "easy mode".
I highly doubt its going to be a way easier game and that they're going to add an "easy mode".
Gotta segregate servers for balance issues if they gave carebears a distinct advantage.
Or you just can't invade if you choose to use "the item" (and the effect is permanent on that character)?
That's an easier way to regulate it, but it treats those that choose easy mode as a second class player. I'm sure FROM wouldn't want to hold content from them, hence why I think a separate Easy mode won't exist in the actual game.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
What's the point getting new people into the souls series, if it's not the same anymore in terms of difficulty, gameplay, mystery etc.?
I don't think this will happen.
I don't think this will happen.
Kenshin001
Member
Knew this was going to happen. Thought Dark Souls was much easier than Demon's Souls with its bonfire checkpoints and this seems like continuing the downward trend.
I think that the bonfires were a good idea. Sometimes it just gets frustrating having to go through the entire dungeon again just to face the boss one more time.
Phonomezer
Banned
Carebears... hahaha.
Carebears can be invaded in any form in exchange for playing on easy. The catch being that carebears are forced to be online if they want to earn any experience.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
We haven't seen ANYTHING beside some CG. Guys, please.
I answered that question in the post you quoted.
They are different games with different selling points, nevermind the fact that i was pretty disappointed by both Skyrim and Oblivion, after finding Morrowind to be one of my favorite games ever; chasing some else's success, expecting the same popularity, is not clever, and i'd say all those failed CoD clones this generation should be looked at.
They may have had decent sales (some of them) but the risk here is to kill off a VERY strong brand in the making, with a potentially VERY loyal fan-base, to try and chase a middle of the road solution that will get the fans mad and the more casual audience a corner of the eye look, while they wait for the new SKYRIM that they saw parodied on Cracked and College Humor.
I think they can include a bit more people, with some clever solutions, like some of the examples made in this thread, but they need to be really careful and do not couple this with Skyrim, just because both have swords and dragons, because they have very different selling points up their sleeves.
Well ugh, play other games then? This is a weird thing to say lol.
It was't easier imo. The limited healing items balanced it i guess. There could be less checkpoints in Demons Souls but you could carry liek zillions of different type of healing items and spam them.
Angry Fork
Member
They should just have 2 separate vastly different difficulties. One of them being what series fans expect, how it's intended to be played. The other is just for new people who want to soak in the atmosphere without the intense challenge.
Don't know why anyone would be against that.
Don't know why anyone would be against that.
IrishNinja
Member
imagine if there was 7 pages of that exact drive-by post, with excellent responses why it's an awful idea on this very page forky
Canis lupus
Member
Wait, someone else is making the game?
Different director, old director is supervising.
Kenshin001
Member
That was the whole point. That was why the game got the reputation it did and became a classic of this generation.
Isn't the intense challenge part of what makes the atmosphere so great though? I don't get all this "Souls should have an easy mode so I can play it too", yeah why RPG's must be 50+hrs? I don't have the luxury or patience to spent much time in games so all RPG's should last 10-20hrs. WTF kind of logic is that?
McHuj
Member
Dark Souls is my favorite game of the entire generation. I really hope that they can live up to expectations for the sequel.
In my opinion, the things that made the game so special to me were:
1. Combat system
2. The atmosphere/world.
3. The method of telling the story
4. Difficulty/Lack of saves
5. Finality of your decisions
Now, I really hope they don't dumb the game down because I think it's possible to make it more accessible, yet retain all the things that made it great.
1. I wouldn't mess with the combat system, although dual wielding could be really cool.
2. I wouldn't add more story or npc's, let the environment communicate the narrative to you.
3. Adding a minimap would be horrible, this would be killer. I think all the areas in Dark Souls were small enough that they didn't warrant a map. Keeping a tight, connected world is essential to me.
4. I would like the game to communicate better how all the leveling systems work. My first character is worthless since his stats are all over the place. I'm not sure how a respec option would work, but making it similar to how NPC forgiveness works, might be an option. It certainly would help a player early in the game.
5. With regards to difficulty, I hope they don't alter the way the game plays and punishes you for failure, but I maybe would be willing to live with a "easy" mode that consisted of giving the players more souls to allow quicker leveling instead of re-balancing the game.
In my opinion, the things that made the game so special to me were:
1. Combat system
2. The atmosphere/world.
3. The method of telling the story
4. Difficulty/Lack of saves
5. Finality of your decisions
Now, I really hope they don't dumb the game down because I think it's possible to make it more accessible, yet retain all the things that made it great.
1. I wouldn't mess with the combat system, although dual wielding could be really cool.
2. I wouldn't add more story or npc's, let the environment communicate the narrative to you.
3. Adding a minimap would be horrible, this would be killer. I think all the areas in Dark Souls were small enough that they didn't warrant a map. Keeping a tight, connected world is essential to me.
4. I would like the game to communicate better how all the leveling systems work. My first character is worthless since his stats are all over the place. I'm not sure how a respec option would work, but making it similar to how NPC forgiveness works, might be an option. It certainly would help a player early in the game.
5. With regards to difficulty, I hope they don't alter the way the game plays and punishes you for failure, but I maybe would be willing to live with a "easy" mode that consisted of giving the players more souls to allow quicker leveling instead of re-balancing the game.
Angry Fork
Member
Having an easy mode doesn't take away the original mode. In your example the 50+ hours option would still be available.
I know what happens when the accessible word comes in I've raged about it this entire gen and if this meant changing the game so it stayed one difficulty but dumbed it down then that would be a huge problem and something I'd disagree with.
But having a separate difficulty for an entirely different demographic while still keeping the original is fine.
That's what i dont get too.
If you don't have time or dedication for a specific game just skip it or maybe youtube it i dunno. And making an easier mode would ruin the game. I mean the difficulty is what makes Souls game great. Even it is optional it would be a lame experience.
Likewise.
Plenty of other games out there to play if you don't want to learn how to play it or can't handle a challenge.
I firmly believe a Souls game being easy would completely ruin the experience.
I'd liken easy mode to Dark Souls NG+ with a well geared character. Stuff dies in seconds and it just isn't much fun until you get to NG++
IrishNinja
Member
again thought - at best you'd further segregate the servers (already a problem in dark), at worst you risk breaking the fine-tuned balance for the possibility of carebears who, by and large, will not likely be interested in the franchise despite a half-hearted attempt to cater to them.
as said a few posts back, they can't be allowed to play online, so they miss a tremendous amount of the experience. to borrow from another, i can't imagine why FROM would see an invite to be a second-class player as something desirable.
Observe: basically every other game/sequel that has claimed to go down that route.
Phonomezer
Banned
"Does this game have perks?!", said the Carebear.
Red Liquorice
Member
Making things like covenants easier to use and access and menus more streamlined - this is the kind of thing that will make the Souls series a better experience for everyone - adding an easy mode and the thinking behind doing so will destroy it.
Anyone wanting an easy mode want it for one reason only - they heard the hype about the game, wanted in on it, but only to complete the game and chuck it on the pile after one weekend so they could say they played it. Dropping in the game and the first thing you see is a huge demon that 2-hit kills you was probably too much for these people any way. Then once they hit Firelink shrine and got slaughtered by a bunch of overpowered skeletons - that was probably the end of the Souls experience for a lot of people - these people are saps. The Souls series isn't something you just mash'n'slash through for a quickie. If that's what you want go play another game.
tbh, I'm wondering what baby games the "I want an easy mode" people do play - what are you even playing games for if it's not for the challenge? That's what a game is - a challenge to try and beat, not a series of cutscenes inbetween which you mash buttons.
Anyone wanting an easy mode want it for one reason only - they heard the hype about the game, wanted in on it, but only to complete the game and chuck it on the pile after one weekend so they could say they played it. Dropping in the game and the first thing you see is a huge demon that 2-hit kills you was probably too much for these people any way. Then once they hit Firelink shrine and got slaughtered by a bunch of overpowered skeletons - that was probably the end of the Souls experience for a lot of people - these people are saps. The Souls series isn't something you just mash'n'slash through for a quickie. If that's what you want go play another game.
tbh, I'm wondering what baby games the "I want an easy mode" people do play - what are you even playing games for if it's not for the challenge? That's what a game is - a challenge to try and beat, not a series of cutscenes inbetween which you mash buttons.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Starcraft II
The Witcher 2 and (and granted we don't know much about it yet) Cyberpunk
Dota 2
Forza Motorsport 3
"More accessible" isn't always the writing on the wall. The hardest of the hardcore might bicker about Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo in terms of simulation quality, and I'm sure there's someone somewhere who prefers The Witcher's combat to The Witcher 2, but none of these games are outright disasters, are they? None of them are affronts to the series they are in. Of course, the changes I bolded in these excerpts don't apply to Dark Souls - I don't think Easy Mode is the answer, for the record - but the idea is the same.
Let's wait before grabbing torches and pitchforks.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I ignored them too and I played when the game came out. That entire section is about sprinting your fucking ass off, it's why they give you the abilty to run in lava.
I always called that section the Jurassic park simulator
onimushroom
Member
This.
It was, at first, merely saddening, that the enthusiasm of getting a new Souls game started to turn into caution so quickly, but now it's more annoying than anything.
All we have are a CG teaser, a press release, and a few comments from EDGE, but people are acting like somebody has personally broken their copies of Demon's and Dark, for the Souls series IS NO MORE!
If you're not one of us, then you're one of them!
I agree that it's early to cry foul, but the new director coupled with those statements, does raise an eyebrow.
Phonomezer
Banned
It's worth pointing out that the last time a Miyazaki stepped aside to "supervise" it resulted in
D:
D:
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Problem is when a Japanese company tries to make something that caters to the west in a stupid attempt to grab more "cod" bucks (what I mean is large sales numbers) they usually wind up fucking things up beyond belief. And those types of decisions are governed by the bean counters who are behind financially backing the title. The exact people who have no place in a developmental space when it comes to making a game besides paying out the money for said product funded.
The west doesnt cater to Japan and their own game formula works as it keeps it unique in its own design way, which is why its stupid that the Japanese companies always assume they need to change their design to cater to the western market and have not seen the trend that when this is attempted its usually a failure on both sides.
This seems to be more a its popular and can make us $$$ so lets push out another one and try to use other forms of influence in the west to help further its popularity for sales!
If thats the case, "this is going to end poorly and you have no one but yourself to blame"
Darksouls was the harder game though.
What would be an easy mode? There is already coop. For Dark Souls I helped around 50 people or so defeating Gaping Dragon. For around 10 of them I literally defeated the boss almost completely by myself. They didn't really do anything. There is your easy mode. Having other players do the work for you. It can't get easier than that.
You want it even easier? How?
They can't just give you 10 times the health, because if you still have no clue about playing the game and you are not even interested in learning and/or "wasting" time, that wouldn't really help. Surviving a few more hits wouldn't really make a difference. Well you could buy a guide (or even just read the one included in the LEs), but then people would complain about "having to buy a guide and then even having to waste their precious time to read it". So we should simplify it, right? Remove all the "complicated" stuff right? But how would that NOT affect the "normal" mode?
Well, they could add an instant win button. Press it and the boss is dead. But then you could also just watch a youtube video. In Demon's/Dark Souls there are no QTEs. You don't really need quick reaction time. You just need patience and observe environments and enemies. You also need persistence. You need to invest time. And that's what people are complaining about. How would you change that without breaking the whole game? It's like CoD players complaining that Operation Flashpoint is complicated, slow and time consuming and that bullet drop. But if you change all that in Operation Flashpoint, it's just another CoD.
Even stuff like World tendencies in Demon's Souls. Yeah, they could put up a huge textbox saying that "you died, which results in the world tendency to become darker, which means the world will get more difficult and more enemies will spawn and they will be harder to beat, but they will also give out more souls + healing items, in case you beat them, but there will also be Primeval Demons, that get you Colorless souls, which you can use to upgrade some specific weapons (including weapon/shields list)". But why? You will already figure that out by yourself after dieing a few times. Or if that's too much, you could read a guide/wiki. But actually you don't want to "waste" time to read it, then the only solution would be to get rid of it, because it's too "complicated", although it's not.
Everytime I read those "I want to play the game, but I don't want to invest time or learn anything or even keep attention up, I just want to hack'n slash away and win yay", I'm imagining someone playing Demon's Souls, playing 1-1 getting to the knight with red eyes and instead of turning away, that player really thinks that attacking it would be a great idea. Then he gets killed in 1 or 2 hits and then the player complains about cheap difficulty. Afterwards he gets to the 2 dragons in 1-1 and instead of thinking "hell, they look badass and they are super huge, better stay away from them" he will walk to them, thinking that he could beat them w/o problems and will get killed instantly. And then he will - again - complain about cheap difficulty.
"fixing" this would mean breaking the game. Would mean changing the game to something completely different and the only thing that would be the same would be the artstyle. No thank you.
That would be nice.
I wonder why people seem to trust CD Projekt RED more than From Software, I don't remember as much outrage about the Cyberpunk comments.