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Edge 249: Dark Souls II. To be more "direct," "straightforward," and "understandable"
- Thread starter Visualante2
- Start date
Have any sense of what sort of thing they may do with a Souls game?
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
That's your way of life, huh?
I don't think anyone can say for sure. Don't forget, before Miyazaki created Demon's Souls, he was the director on Armored Core 4, which was completely different in pretty much every way.
Gawd. I'd rather have a complete newb in charge. Personally the non-Souls games from From are just trash.
So King's field and Shadow Tower are trash. Ok
XANDER CAGE
Member
Not sure if that's a genuine mistake or if someone at Amazon is poking fun at the "old school" fans.
I don't like King's Field, and I don't like their mech games either. Emphasis on I.
Phonomezer
Banned
Fuck yeah next-gen Souls Box.
Wow, that's a pretty ridiculous statement. King's Field and Shadow Tower, oh, I don't know, only paved the way for your precious Souls games. Jesus Christ...
Red Liquorice
Member
Because they don't have the patience to learn how to play the game, they just heard it was the new cool game out and didn't want to miss out on what was hot.
The whole marketing around Dark Souls was that it was a challenge, I really don't think they are going to make the game something the series is not. I do think they will try to make it more accessible in explaining game mechanics or something like that.
I'm pretty sure most of us here finished Dark Souls (and Demon's Souls, probably).
And i'm also sure most people here are not trying to prove how hard their gamer-dicks are, but are just concerned that an integral part of what makes Dark Souls atmosphere great (rarefied storytelling, for example) will not return in the sequel.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Once you realize their attitudes on the matter are terrible, which led to their experience with the game being terrible, it makes more sense.
It is a part of a whole and that whole is what Souls games need to function. It's the downside of such an elegant, complex, and interwoven game. Yet it's an easy thing to rip out as its binary and really attracts the attention of the passer-by.
Shh, many people haven't played those games! Maybe he doesn't know..
This is by far the most logical thing. Perhaps something like a tutorial option in the main menu that does a more intrusive explanation than just reading messages, that sets up enemies to be backstabbed or parried and allows you to try it out until you get it for example. This harms no one's experience but increases amount of people who can play the game.
Perhaps bringing back white phantoms running around from demon's souls that run in a direction that may aid someone who doesn't know where to go at the start. As most people I know who started it, went to the graveyard first in Dark Souls and found the game needlessly frustrating. It's a minor thing to fix stuff like this, but goes a long way to increase the amount of people who can play the game and get into it.
Accessibility harms no one and helps those who need it. Difficulty is a separate beast all together.
This might be a good opportunity to ask. I kind of got frustrated trying to play King's Field around the time I played Demon's Souls, but I'd be willing to try to get into one of them again. Is there one that is the best example of that series that is worth playing the most?
That is impossible.
How about they play another game instead? Unnecessary options are not a good thing. They are unsightly and a waste of everybody's time.
Difficulty options are almost universally a cop out for players and designers. The Souls' games lack of difficulty options should be applauded; it shows that the designers are confident in what they made. It also creates unity -- since there is no difficulty option, when you talk about the game with somebody and share your experiences, you can assume that both (or more) of you experienced the same fight, environmental hazard, etc. Considering the community aspect of the games -- that is vital!
If people do not like what they made, then they have a right to not like it, and they can play a different game. Anybody who argues otherwise is arguing for the homogenization of gaming that has plagued this generation.
HDgaming42
Member
You and me both. =(
King's Field IV is the most approachable game in the series. King's Field I (Japanese only) and King's Field II are very similar to each other. They feel/look incredibly dated, but they are still great dungeon crawlers and they were most certainly ahead of their time. King's Field III (II in NA) was a gigantic improvement over the first two games, but it's still probably hard for people to go back to. KF I-III are all on PSone too.
King's Field IV, however, is an early PS2 game. The jump from King's Field III to IV was AMAZING too. Just to illustrate the difference, here's two pictures to show you the evolution of the series.
King's Field III
King's Field IV
I grew up with From's games and when my brother and I first got our PS2 we were so happy that they released a bunch of games at launch (Eternal Ring & Evergrace, especially). Eternal Ring was a much faster paced King's Field-like spin off, but it was still pretty fucking amazing looking/feeling coming off of the PSone. When KF IV dropped though, forget about it. The bar was raised ages ago. These guys were making great Dark RPGs for years and only now they are getting the recognition. If you love Demon's/Dark Souls, you need to AT LEAST give Ancient City a run through. It's only a 25-30 hour game too.
EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question more directly. King's Field: Ancient City is the best game in the series to play. It represents what King's Field is to a tee. The older games were still very good for their time, but I understand why some people would get frustrated with them. If you're feeling brave and old school though, I'd still suggest checking them out one day and playing them through to the end. I would almost suggest playing them backwards. Start with the best and work your way down.
H_Prestige
Banned
Exactly. Those people are bunch of entitled assholes. Sorry if it sounds elitist, but it's true.
Whenever difficulty of Souls games come up, the smallest of criticism of the difficulty gets you branded a weenie.
With that said, yeah we can have some concerns, but Dark Souls was a much harder game than Demons Souls, it was also in some ways more obtuse but in others more approachable. Simply said there are a lot of things to fix, and that doesnt mean the game will get dumbed down.
Cool, thanks for the detailed explanation. This actually tends to be how I play older titles. I play a more recent one and really get a feel for it and want to play others, and I think, I might as well play the previous one since the jump to the first ones might be too much, and usually work my way back into the originals too. I'll give King's Field: Ancient City a spin soon.
I honestly think demon's souls is more accessible. The hub made accessing levels much easier while in Dark Souls it's easy to be at a loss over what to do. Then we have humanity, even more complicated magic and crafting systems and covenants.
I don't know about harder. There were some parts that were a bit trickier, but most of the bosses aren't too bad outside ores and smores, and four kings with certain builds, but even then, four kings are far more brutal on NG+ than NG. Flame Lurker and last boss seemed quite a bit harder than anything in Dark Souls. Though I suppose magic made Demon's pretty easy. The dungeons in Demon's seemed harder for the most part too, a lot more tiny and dark corridors where you can't see what is up ahead and such.
Amibguous Cad
Member
We should be aiming for hard, but fair. It's entirely possible to keep all the difficulty of Dark Souls 2 but to explain their ancillary systems like blacksmithing, covenants, and so on in a clearer way. It's a cause for concern, but only a minor one.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
So many worries in here.
2 great games means I'll have faith until I play it and see the final product...
2 great games means I'll have faith until I play it and see the final product...
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
I really don't mind the game being more clear and forthcoming as regards the more obscure game aspects like covenants, but this...
Hearing shit like this worries me.
Hearing shit like this worries me.
NemesisPrime
Banned
The controls totally suck... if they fix that I am happy.
EatinOlives
Member
Wut. The controls are one of the best things about the game.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Going by the change of director, the PR and the trailer I think they're going by a much standard game. With a more traditional narrative and structure. Main quests, side quests, more NPC's etc... basically a game more akin to the western RPG.
I hope I'm wrong.
I hope I'm wrong.
Let's look at the difference between Demon's Souls to Dark Souls too though.
- Bonfires are far more frequent than stage start points.
- Becoming human is far easier.
- 100% life as undead.
- No more item weight limit.
- Guaranteed healing items.
- Guaranteed spell casting.
All these things could be looked at as 'streamlining' or 'making the series easier' but I can't really complain about any of them, as I feel it improves all those systems it effected. There is no reason to believe it's going to become some joke of a game.
- Bonfires are far more frequent than stage start points.
- Becoming human is far easier.
- 100% life as undead.
- No more item weight limit.
- Guaranteed healing items.
- Guaranteed spell casting.
All these things could be looked at as 'streamlining' or 'making the series easier' but I can't really complain about any of them, as I feel it improves all those systems it effected. There is no reason to believe it's going to become some joke of a game.
Yes. It's impossible for me to comprehend controls better than this. Short of jumping and kicking, which could be better, this is the best I could possibly imagine a game with heavy focus on both hands being equally useable in combat. If someone doesn't like the controls, they should simply play another game instead since it isn't for them.
vikingvessel
Member
Is this based on actual experience or something you read? The rewarding combat was one of the key components that elevated these games far beyond what many other developers were/are doing in similar genres. I thought this was universally accepted by those who made it at least ten minutes in. Please provide examples of where the controls have been surpassed. You will make my day if there is something I missed.
I thought the bonfires for Dark Souls were a great may to sort of mediate the difficulty (even exploit it for farming) and make it accessible for newer players. I still don't think either Souls games were necessarily hard, they just needed patience to play. I don't really want that compromised.
Was it? I thought of the PS era, II was the best. III covers more areas, but as a result many more of the areas are linear. Each area only usually connects with another one, and you're lucky if it branches beyond that. KF II is much more like Super Metroid to me, and I love how all of the areas connect in coherent ways.
How else would you do the controls? Besides putting sprint on LS/L3, maybe.
King's Field the Ancient City definitely has that Dark Souls feel. All the areas are interconnected, its fairly tough, its on the PS2 so only a generation ago. I liked it anyway.
Ugh, FROM comments remind me vaguely of Sonic's overlords of the past several years saying (in Japanese [subtitled in English]), "what makes Sonic great is that it's faaast!!!." You can just tell by listening to interviews that they don't "get" why the Genesis games were so great.
When I play Demon's or Dark Souls I'm continually hit by subtle things, like object placement, that to most game designers wouldn't make any sense. But it all works somehow.
I'm worried that these two new directors will try to "fix" things, and wind up taking the entire design down to their level of game design comprehension.
When I play Demon's or Dark Souls I'm continually hit by subtle things, like object placement, that to most game designers wouldn't make any sense. But it all works somehow.
I'm worried that these two new directors will try to "fix" things, and wind up taking the entire design down to their level of game design comprehension.
I don't know, I mean, it's been a long time since I've played through the old ones, but King's Field III is definitely my favorite of the old school bunch. I think I'm totally due for replays of each game. If we're just talking about visuals/environments, King's Field III takes the cake. It's not as COMPLETELY grey and brown as the other two games, lol! I think more players could understand where they were in the third game because most areas had a distinct feel/look (from what I remember, at least). Wasn't there like a forest/hedge maze-like area in KF III? Also, there was that cool cliff area with the teleporters. Was King's Field II really more interconnected than III too? Man, I really need to revisit these games again.
And yeah, most (if not all) King's Field games had that metroidvania structure/style that everyone throws around these days. Ancient City, especially, is designed EXTREMELY well. The Ancient City itself acts as a central hub to all of the areas. There's SO many back doors and interconnected areas in King's Field IV, it's crazy cool. Honestly though, I actually always felt like Demon's Souls (especially) was more like Shadow Tower than King's Field. Shadow Tower was more zone/world-ish than "open world" or "metroidvania". Demon's Souls definitely reflects a more Shadow Tower-like philosophy than King's Field, but there's a lot of cross over too.
Riposte
Member
The healing system could be seen as a rebalancing that makes the game harder, until you expand your estus flask strength and quantity later in the game (which can be powerful to a lame extent).
NOOOO
(assuming you meant sprint).I hate sprinting with the analog click.
That was tedious as fuck, having to stop and do inventory managment because of one rock too many constantly broke my immersion, especially in world 2, where they give you a shitton of minerals.
Also healing items go both ways, they were guaranteed in DkS, but you could farm them in DeS.
Same for mana regen items.
NOOOO
I hate sprinting with the analog click.
Well, I was thinking that it would be a shortcut and the ordinary method would still work.
Maybe it's just me, but when i'm tense i grip the pad like an hawk, in Hotline Miami sometimes i lock on enemies, just because i click the right analog for that reason.