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[TAJ]

PS3 never dominated due to having more power.

It wasn't more powerful. Given the one-year gap and price, it should have been, but nope.

 

[jsnepo]

Serious question. What benefit would they get from people buying their games used?

The only thing I can think of is, having new fans jump on to a franchise and buy games later on.

I agree with the only advantage to the publishers. However to assume that customers under a particular platform that allows used games only buys used games that may negatively affect the profit of a third party publisher more than the positive is a bit absurd to use as an argument for third parties going platform exclusive.

 

[apana]

Pretty much. Everything that GAF and gamers said about the current generation was wrong. PS3 never dominated due to having more power. The Wii didn't fail due to having less. The Wii and Kinect proved to have a tono f mainstream appeal. The Move didn't. Xbox LIVE didn't fail despite charging $60/year for online play. The PSP didn't overtake the DS despite having more power. The Vita might as well not exist despite being more powerful than the 3DS.

Everything gamers hated proved to be a success and everything gamers wanted proved to be massive failures.

They can fight NeoGAF, they can't fight third console curse.

 

[Zzoram]

What's the legal implication? Does anyone think there will be a lawsuit over the right to resell games?

They can try, some already are in progress, but ultimate they'll all lose.

We can't resell PC software or iOS/Android software. No judge will rule you have to be able to resell games because the implications would devastate several industries and the way of doing business for the past decade.

 

[statham]

Not if there is no install base.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

The other part is ignoring competition between third parties. Let's take FIFA as a very good example.

EA agree with MS to have next gen FIFA exclusive to NXTBX, Konami otoh sell 400k units of Winning Eleven in Japan, which is not going to be possible on any kind of Xbox. So Konami release PES2014 on PS4 and NXTBX while FIFA is only on NXTBX. Konami have just retaken their crown in Europe for football games.

The fact is that there is still going to be a viable football game on PS4 that people will play if they can't get FIFA and EA would be stupid to give Konami such an easy way back into the market. Which is why they won't release FIFA exclusively on NXTBX.

The same is true for almost all genres, including shooters. If Activision take the stupid decision not release COD on PS4, EA aren't going to stand around and let an untapped market remain that way. BF4 is going to be balls to the wall on PS4 and EA will take the shooter crown away from Activision and force them to release a PS4 version either next time around or just belatedly.

Then there also the fact that FIFA still going to come out on PS3 for next few years .
I wonder if EA could get away with making FIFA for every system expect PS4 .

This is 1 issue all 3rd parties are united on. You don't think if MS is doing this they have broad industry support? It would be done for the 3rd parties who have been on this issue for years.

Japanese devs would love this but Japan games market depends a lot of used games sales.
That not going to work over there so they not going to shut out Sony .

 

[gcubed]

What's the legal implication? Does anyone think there will be a lawsuit over the right to resell games?

already has been for digital games, and EU ruled that a consumer must be able to resell digital games.

This is DOA in Europe

 

[zomgbbqftw]

What's the legal implication? Does anyone think there will be a lawsuit over the right to resell games?

In the EU for sure. The German bureau for consumer rights has just won a significant case against Valve at the ECJ. It's an EU wide ruling as well because it is a single market issue. MS would be walking into a literal minefield in Europe with this system in place.

 

[Drek]

It would not be half the market new consoles don't sell many games at first. They would not leave many sales on the tablet to ensure gamestop the real enemy is stopped. You think a new PS4 would sell with out madden,fifa and cod? Especially if MS and the other 3rd parties advertised the hell out of the exclusives? It would not take more than a few months for Sony to give into the pressure. Rememeber the last system with out EA support?

If 1 has this feature both will and they already made that agreement to avoid any sort of blood bath and make 3rd parties happy.

EA isn't the same company it was then and their exclusive licensing is up after this year. You really think they want to encourage Sony to start making Gameday again, which was running Madden down in sales on PS1 before they killed it (often rumored as a favor to EA), when Sony has far better first parties than they did then? Sony already makes the best baseball game on the market, tempting them to make their own NFL game is dealing with the devil.

FIFA just barely took the crown from Winning Eleven/ProEvo, going exclusive would just mean them handing it back over immediately to Konami.

There are better options than EA and Activision out there now. The two of them trying to strong arm Sony has at least as much chance of backfiring on them as it does in forcing Sony's hand into the "no used games" crowd.

 

[Hindle]

I just don't see any leak from anyone who works for MS. They have it locked down like Fort Knox over there.

 

[famousmortimer]

And suddenly this gif seem so much more sinister.

 

[Glorified G]

The other part is ignoring competition between third parties. Let's take FIFA as a very good example.

EA agree with MS to have next gen FIFA exclusive to NXTBX, Konami otoh sell 400k units of Winning Eleven in Japan, which is not going to be possible on any kind of Xbox. So Konami release PES2014 on PS4 and NXTBX while FIFA is only on NXTBX. Konami have just retaken their crown in Europe for football games.

The fact is that there is still going to be a viable football game on PS4 that people will play if they can't get FIFA and EA would be stupid to give Konami such an easy way back into the market. Which is why they won't release FIFA exclusively on NXTBX.

The same is true for almost all genres, including shooters. If Activision take the stupid decision not release COD on PS4, EA aren't going to stand around and let an untapped market remain that way. BF4 is going to be balls to the wall on PS4 and EA will take the shooter crown away from Activision and force them to release a PS4 version either next time around or just belatedly.

Agreed. It's pretty naive that some people think that all third parties are all holding hands & are not competing with eachother.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Perhaps read the rumor. Physical game sales aren't disappearing.

No but they may as well be under this. Some of the key benefits to physical games are your right to resell, your right to trade, your right to lend or borrow, and your right to have access to the game without interference from an outside entity. All of these go away with an always online authentication. It now becomes no different than buying a physical copy of a PC game that is Steam activated. All it does is save you the download time while restricting your usage and access.

 

[Cornbread78]

What if Microsoft purposefully leaked these rumors to gauge public reception before making an official decision?

This.....

 

[FordGTGuy]

I just don't see any leak from anyone who works for MS. They have it locked down like Fort Knox over there.

Well there is always a possibility of a leak no matter the company.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

The concern is that 3rd parties may favor the Xbox over the PS4 if the PS4 doesn't stop second hand sales. However, if the PS4 gets a sales boost from this and outpaces the Xbox then 3rd parties could not afford to not sell on the PS4. But would the the public aware enough of this difference to make an impact? Especially if the Xbox gets Call of Duty exclusively to use an example? This is going to be interesting to see how things unfold, but I think the safest thing to do is for Sony to follow suit, so that they don't lose 3rd party support.

 

[Foffy]

I just don't see any leak from anyone who works for MS. They have it locked down like Fort Knox over there.

I think you can see just on GAF why this information wouldn't dare wish to surface when they plan on releasing a new platform. Posts here are already about people distancing themselves from the platform before they even fucking see what it can do.

 

[quest]

in regards to third parties "dreamcasting" ps4 if sony doesn't follow, they can have fun telling investors that they skipped 1-4 million copies sold out of principle, especially since EVERY publisher is complaining that games cost too much to make.

So every game is going to sell 1 to 1 with the PS4 now? This would be a short term loss for a long term gain. It would only be a matter of months before sony would cave in the west. MS taking 500 million kinect ad budget to say they have exclusives of Madden, COD and every other major 3rd party game would force Sony's hand.

Investors would dance a jig if this got rid of used games even if they took a minor short term hit.

 

[Alx]

EA has to answer to investors what is there reason for making FIFA exclusive .

The same reason why they've been asking for that feature for years : the perspective of more sales thanks to the vanishing of second-hand market. I'm sure investors are the first supporters of that idea.
It may or may not work of course. In the end, both constructors will end up with the same strategy anyway. If the "no second hand" strategy works for MS and its allied publishers, Sony will have to follow if they don't want to be left behind. If the public boycots the exclusives and supports Sony, the publishers will have to support them too, and MS will have no reason to keep its policy.
Both situations are possible, and both will end up with all constructors following the same strategy : second hand for all, or second hand for none. But for publishers it may be worth trying, since at worst they will go back to the statu quo.

 

[Nokagi]

He's supporting the third parties. Thanks for elevating the level of discourse though.

Sorry if the word shit offends you. Doh. Anyway I'd argue this may actually harm lesser known third parties. How many people will pay full price for a new IP by a little known developer with no option to resell it? Gamefly, Redbox, and all those other local rental stores won't be buying all those copies anymore either. Also no more people coming into Gamestop to trade in their old stuff to buy something new. Not to mention less people buying the actual console. I dunno.. third parties might want to be careful of such a thing.

 

[educator]

Im currently sitting on 100Mbit fiber internet, and I've had all my consoles hooked up to the internet ever since I bought the original Xbox back in ´03. Basically, I'll be fine if MS requires me to be online to access the 720.

However, if this rumor is true, MS is really shooting themselves in the foot. A large part (large enough to impact sales and marketshare) of current 360-owners do not have internet, and some of them who do have it are sitting on unreliable connection. Making current users transfer and invest in the 720 is crucial for MS, and they need to rethink their operation around this question. Requiring internet connection to even boot up the 720 is insane and won't encourage people to buy one, regardless of the potential buyer's internet situation.

And frankly, it would be a real kick to the nuts if this showed to be real, which it likely will not be.

 

[Into]

in regards to third parties "dreamcasting" ps4 if sony doesn't follow, they can have fun telling investors that they skipped 1-4 million copies sold out of principle, especially since EVERY publisher is complaining that games cost too much to make.

This

What EA executive is going to tell their investors that in order to combat the used games market that costs them X amount of money on a yearly basis, they will instead NOT release games on the PS4 and Wii U, losing even a larger amount of money in the process so that they can confine their multi million dollar next gen games to just 1 console!?

What Japanese publisher will even consider this? Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid and many many others still do good numbers in their homeland, a country that has continually rejected the Xbox brand from the get go and now you are adding 2 further barriers: Always online and anti used game market in a country that is dependent on it?

Sony will gain more from not following this than by going along, but we will likely know in 2 weeks (unless MS comes out and officially denies this rumor) whether the PS4 is online always and what the deal is with used games.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

This is 1 issue all 3rd parties are united on. You don't think if MS is doing this they have broad industry support? It would be done for the 3rd parties who have been on this issue for years.

I don't doubt that it's what the publishers want. Investors will want profits though, and not selling on PS4 as a point of principle isn't a good enough reason. There will be enough third parties that release games on PS4 to force adoption, stuff like PES will get released even if FIFA doesn't and suddenly EA management are going to have a shitstorm of angry investors asking why they missed out on the 3m units of PES shipped on PS4.

 

[WalkMan]

Hilarious that people are trying to bend this into a benefit. Oh surely 720 will have more exclusives and content than PS4 now because publishers will have more control supposedly.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

STUFF

Could have used the word petty a bit more to make your argument more compelling.

 

[Drek]

What I'm saying is that this wouldn't be a single company involved in this and it would take a lot of people to set up a system like this. If Microsoft were to go through with this it would have to be along with at least a few major 3rd party developers.

I would just think a major project like this would cause a lot more than one leak.

Why? Who at EA needs to know about this beyond Riccetello? Who at Activision beyond Kotick?

Information leaks from the bottom much more than from the top. The major 3rd parties could be in full support without any need to let that information trickle outside the executive offices, and its not like MS needs to line up more than a handful of the major 3rd parties. EA, Activision, and one of Ubi or Take 2 and they'd probably feel comfortable with taking a run at it, assuming they would all pledge some sort of major exclusive to the new system.

 

[MotherFan]

How will Sony do anything in its home country with DD only? Japan does not really like it.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I just love how none of these companies take in consideration the crappy bandwidth limits we get here in Canada.

Somebody's going to have to adjust.

It sure isnt going to be Rogers and Bell!

 

[nbthedude]

No but they may as well be under this. Some of the key benefits to physical games are your right to resell, your right to trade, your right to lend or borrow, and your right to have access to the game without interference from an outside entity. All of these go away with an always online authentication. It now becomes no different than buying a physical copy of a PC game that is Steam activated. All it does is save you the download time while restricting your usage and access.

You are absolutely right. It does eliminate the advantages of physical game sales.

And good. There is no reason we need to keep destroying the planet with all that shit when we can get the exact same experience w/o it and with more convenience delivered right to our home. Physical media needs to go the fuck away.

 

[Shinta]

Well I know one console that won't block used games for sure.

Wii U.

 

[Hindle]

Well there is always a possibility of a leak no matter the company.

Anyone who leaks stuff knows they will be found out. So why risk thier jobs?

 

[Dr Dogg]

And suddenly this gif seem so much more sinister.

Hahaha. Funnily I see Ballmer shouting-and-charging-around-like-a-madman.gif with the same words.

 

[syllogism]

already has been for digital games, and EU ruled that a consumer must be able to resell digital games.

This is DOA in Europe

No ECJ did not rule that

In the EU for sure. The German bureau for consumer rights has just won a significant case against Valve at the ECJ. It's an EU wide ruling as well because it is a single market issue. MS would be walking into a literal minefield in Europe with this system in place.

No they didn't win anything and the case isn't at the ECJ

 

[erawsd]

Admittedly, I don't know much about how these publisher-retail relationships work.

Why won't the publishers just go after Gamestop? Why not demand a cut of the resale or force GS to pay more for the product? Gamestop wouldn't be push a price hike onto gamers because places like Walmart/Amazon/ect would still carry them at normal price.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Buy physical PC games + use cracks = profit?

Using cracks is illegal

 

[BobTheFork]

In the EU for sure. The German bureau for consumer rights has just won a significant case against Valve at the ECJ. It's an EU wide ruling as well because it is a single market issue. MS would be walking into a literal minefield in Europe with this system in place.

hmm so they'd never be able to get away with this system in EU?
If true then I don't see how this is real unless they are going to have different region rules(bigger shitstorm)

 

[Vinci]

This

What EA executive is going to tell their investors that in order to combat the used games market that costs them X amount of money on a yearly basis, they will instead NOT release games on the PS4 and Wii U, losing even a larger amount of money in the process so that they can confine their multi million dollar next gen games to just 1 console!?

That would be an uncomfortable discussion to have. However, keep in mind that executives have been blaming used and pirated games for almost all of their troubles over the last seven years. It has become their bogeyman. And beyond that, there's no way they would outright avoid the PS4 - the NextBox would simply get better treatment overall.

 

[Dude Abides]

Well this is certainly an interesting development. A fun year to follow this industry!

 

[Meatvillain]

I would be happy to own a next gen system (that didn't have an always-on Internet connection requirement and didn't limit consumers' options) but my Internet connection is plain ol' ADSL and there's nothing I can do to change that at the moment. What a load of shit.

If Microsoft have chosen to go this route I truly hope it bites them in the arse. I will not buy a console that can't be used offline and doesn't play used games.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Why? Who at EA needs to know about this beyond Riccetello? Who at Activision beyond Kotick?

Information leaks from the bottom much more than from the top. The major 3rd parties could be in full support without any need to let that information trickle outside the executive offices, and its not like MS needs to line up more than a handful of the major 3rd parties. EA, Activision, and one of Ubi or Take 2 and they'd probably feel comfortable with taking a run at it, assuming they would all pledge some sort of major exclusive to the new system.

Well something doesn't come from nothing the X720 isn't far off and the idea being pushed here would be a major change from current distributions so yes by now if it were true I would think there would be a lot more people in the know.

 

[90TilInfinity]

I'd be very interested in seeing the pricing model (both digitally and at retail) if they went through with this.

 

[Polari]

Suicidal if Microsoft are doing this yet Sony aren't. They might get publishers onboard but retailers and consumers are going to be behind Sony in a big way. If they're both doing it we all get screwed.

 

[Jetman]

I guess this would help explain why Microsoft is backing the government "super WiFi" /Free Public Wifi network that's been in the news recently. No excuse not to have a connected system if every household has access to it.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I don't doubt that it's what the publishers want. Investors will want profits though, and not selling on PS4 as a point of principle isn't a good enough reason. There will be enough third parties that release games on PS4 to force adoption, stuff like PES will get released even if FIFA doesn't and suddenly EA management are going to have a shitstorm of angry investors asking why they missed out on the 3m units of PES shipped on PS4.

The thing is everyone is starting out from square one again. If third parties don't hop on board with the PS4 because of this, PS4 sales will be limited and there won't be a reason for them to develop for it. Just like the Wii U isn't attracting development because the numbers aren't there. This is a gamble that Microsoft is hoping will play in their favor.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

That would be an uncomfortable discussion to have. However, keep in mind that executives have been blaming used and pirated games for almost all of their troubles over the last seven years. It has become their bogeyman. And beyond that, there's no way they would outright avoid the PS4 - the NextBox would simply get better treatment overall.

They only fuss that much in hopes that everyone would buy into anti used games measure, however, if 2/3 don't follow suit it really doesn't make business sense.

 

[Cth]

Anecdotaly speaking, I haven't been approached to get a used copy instead of a new copy in the last 2 years or so I've been going to the Gamestops in my area. Is it still common or is this just people recalling the past?

Anyways, I was curious and found this information on another forum talking about how used sales were responsible for killing the market. I'm reposting in the hopes that some more info can be posted to add or refute it.

Companies in the DVD, Game and Video Rental industry are expected to generate
total revenue of $6.6 billion during 2011, representing a decline of 12.4%
compared with the previous year. The economic recession and associated
turmoil caused by the subprime mortgage crisis had an adverse impact
on consumer spending, which also hurt industry demand. Declines in household
disposable income significantly deflated household expenditure on movie and
game rentals since late 2007. As a result, industry revenue is expected to decline
at an annualized rate of 9.8% over the five years to 2011.

2011 - Used/Rental industry is 6.6 billion (down 12.4% from 2010 - includes tv/video) Presuming that 75% is dvd/blu-ray rentals, that's still 2 billion.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/npd-black-ops-ii-is-us-top-selling-game-of-2012-6402271

Overall, total video game sales for December slid 22 percent to $3.21 billion, while the total year's haul hit $13.26 billion, down 22 percent from last year's total of $16.99 billion.

NPD Group analyst Liam Callahan cautioned that this figure only represents new physical retail sales of hardware, software, and accessories, and makes up just 50 percent of total consumer spend. [ Translation: Bricks and mortar stores, not Amazon, etc ]

"When you consider our preliminary estimate for other physical format sales in December such as used and rentals at $217 million, and our estimate for digital format sales including full game and add-on content downloads including microtransactions, subscriptions, mobile apps and the consumer spend on social network games at $765 million, we would estimate the total consumer spend in December to be over $4.1 billion"

Total software sales for December slid 27 percent to $1.58 billion, while software sales for the year suffered less, dipping 22 percent to $7.09 billion. Callahan said a major reason why retail sales for the year were down double-digits was due to a lack of new releases.

SOFTWARE
1.58billion - 217mil (used/rental) - 765mil (dlc/dd/etc) = 518mil (sales)

HARDWARE
3.2billion (total) - 1.58billion (sw) = 1.62billion (hw)

Dec 2011 Sales

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/eight-retailers-that-will-close-the-most-stores-173320796.html?page=2

> Forecast store closings: 500 to 600
> Number of U.S. stores: 4,471
> One-year stock performance: -2.2%

In November, just as the holiday season was in full swing, GameStop Corp. (GME) announced it would close 200 stores in 2013. The video game retailer, hurt by growth in mobile gaming at the expense of console gaming platforms, had a 4.6% year-over-year decrease in revenue, as well as a 4.4% decline in comparable-store sales over the nine-week holiday period. For the third quarter of 2012, the most recent quarterly release, gross profits fell at GameStop’s three core product segments: new hardware, new software and used products.

Basically, used gaming isn't the biggest problem the industry faces, but rather competition from digital sales and mobile gaming.

 

[gcubed]

No ECJ did not rule that

No they didn't win anything and the case isn't at the ECJ

what did they rule?

The first sale in the EU of a copy of a computer program by the copyright holder or with his consent exhausts the right of distribution of that copy in the EU. A rightholder who has marketed a copy in the territory of a Member State of the EU thus loses the right to rely on his monopoly of exploitation in order to oppose the resale of that copy… The principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website.

Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy. Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy.

 

[genjiZERO]

This all sounds pretty anti-consumer. I was definitely more likely to get a PS4 based on my previous experiences and specs anyway, but if this is all true it'll really seal the deal.

 

[Baconsammy]

You are absolutely right. It does eliminate the advantages of physical game sales.

And good. There is no reason we need to keep destroying the planet with all that shit when we can get the exact same experience w/o it and with more convenience delivered right to our home. Physical media needs to go the fuck away.

But people with shelves!

Suicidal if Microsoft are doing this yet Sony aren't. They might get publishers onboard but retailers and consumers are going to be behind Sony in a big way. If they're both doing it we all get screwed.

Like consumers were behind record stores and wholly against iTunes?

 

[FordGTGuy]

Anyone who leaks stuff knows they will be found out. So why risk thier jobs?

That's the point of the risk I guess we've seen many employees switch companies and end up sued for this exact thing.