That's actually a good point, we can assess her credibility as early as 1 month from now unless Nintendo isn't forthcoming about something as big as gender options for what's literally their only game at the show.
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Emily Rogers: NX Not Using x86 Architecture - Won't Blow Away Current Gen Consoles
- Thread starter dancrane212
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That's actually a good point, we can assess her credibility as early as 1 month from now unless Nintendo isn't forthcoming about something as big as gender options for what's literally their only game at the show.
Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
Any chance of a link to that quote?
Schnozberry
Member
Yeah, that's been out there a while now. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out. There are discussions and articles floating around out there about the iPad Pro paving the way for an ARM based Apple Laptop as well, which seems like a better fit for a semi-custom SOC.
Akhe
Member
I believe I was not clear. I mean, there are so many rumors do not know who is telling the truth. 10k say one thing while Emily tells another thing and so on.
Whats cheap for you gfx wise?
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
If it blows away the Wii U (and the Wii U games look this good) I'm totally happy with this.
Yes, but that picture is a lie no matter who reported it. It breaks a basic rule of rumors, it shows a price. Way before the release and way before the reveal. The price is one of the things that are top secret and maybe not even fixed before the reveal. Not to even mention that it's a very awkward price.
There's tons of evidence that Nintendo will go 100% ARM....
1) NX is 1 platform. Iwata cited iOS as an example as to what NX is trying to be. Platforms stick to 1 architecture generally speaking.
2) (Iwata said) NX could result in more form factors. Much easier to do if the architectures of those form factors are the same.
3) Nintendo combined their handheld and console divisions in order to accomplish the 1 OS goal.
4) Nintendo has previously stated there isn't room for 3 similar power hungry consoles. An indication that x86 is no priority.
5) Nintendo focuses first on what's best for their needs. Those needs are different than western 3rd party developers. Nintendo wants new ways to play their games and power efficiency/small form factor/low noise output as much as or more than nicer looking graphics. Nintendo's games don't require photo realistic graphics either. Again this means x86 is no priority.
6) Nintendo's home market is Japan and the handheld is king in Japan. And ARM is king in the handheld realm. Nintendo has said many times it focuses on Japan first and foremost.
7) The world is moving more toward mobile chipsets and power efficiency. ARM is king here.
8) Write once, play everywhere. Nintendo can offer something their console competition cannot : the ability for a 3rd party to offer their game for both handheld and console. This is even easier if the architectures are the same.
9) More 1st party games available on both console and handheld. Again this is better accomplished (less work needed) if the architectures are the same.
1) NX is 1 platform. Iwata cited iOS as an example as to what NX is trying to be. Platforms stick to 1 architecture generally speaking.
2) (Iwata said) NX could result in more form factors. Much easier to do if the architectures of those form factors are the same.
3) Nintendo combined their handheld and console divisions in order to accomplish the 1 OS goal.
4) Nintendo has previously stated there isn't room for 3 similar power hungry consoles. An indication that x86 is no priority.
5) Nintendo focuses first on what's best for their needs. Those needs are different than western 3rd party developers. Nintendo wants new ways to play their games and power efficiency/small form factor/low noise output as much as or more than nicer looking graphics. Nintendo's games don't require photo realistic graphics either. Again this means x86 is no priority.
6) Nintendo's home market is Japan and the handheld is king in Japan. And ARM is king in the handheld realm. Nintendo has said many times it focuses on Japan first and foremost.
7) The world is moving more toward mobile chipsets and power efficiency. ARM is king here.
8) Write once, play everywhere. Nintendo can offer something their console competition cannot : the ability for a 3rd party to offer their game for both handheld and console. This is even easier if the architectures are the same.
9) More 1st party games available on both console and handheld. Again this is better accomplished (less work needed) if the architectures are the same.
Davey Cakes
Member
I think this is the "compromise" that some people are hoping for. If Nintendo is opting for only a modestly powerful console but also a beefy handheld, the two can "meet in the middle" in terms of a speculated shared library. That's more acceptable than if we were dealing with another Wii U/3DS situation where the two are fragmented and there's no real excuse.
The conveniences and development efficiency afforded by a shared mobile-friendly architecture (across both the console and handheld) are hard to ignore.
I really feel sorry for 10k. He's so gullible and desperate for attention, and it's going to hurt when it all blows up in his face. He needs to stop pretending to quit and actually do it, because at this rate he's going to need to reboot his entire online persona if he doesn't want to deal with issues where ever he goes.
Though, we shouldn't have this many mysteries at this point in the first damn place.
I think the ultimate would be the shared library. But not sure Nintendo is ready to go that route. I think we'll at least see a a handheld and a console version of many 1st party games.
In either case, I (too?) never saw why there was 2 different MK games, 1 for 3ds and 1 for Wii U. To me that didn't make sense all around. For one, MK8 only gets to sell into the Wii U install base. That seems like a ton of money left on the table. It could be selling into the ~60 million 3ds install base too. Or vice versa, MK7 could be selling into the Wii U install base giving the Wii U more software.
If I'm a MK fan then I'm asked to buy both handheld and console. That's alot to ask of the average customer. I think it's leaving money on the table. If you're a big Nintendo fan you're buying each device anyway so it seems pointless to have this limitation.
If they make each MK game run across both devices then it would mean twice the software for each device.
Or you can look at it the other way. Maybe 2 MK games is too much MK in the span of 2-3 years or even a generation. Maybe Nintendo is better off releasing 1 MK game overall which is what they already do per platform anyway. IF they just make 1 version across both handheld and console then they can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. That means half the development resources to guarantee both handheld and console have a MK game. They can use those resources to make a different game instead.
And they can sell the customer on buying a handheld and a console by showing customers how they can seamlessly switch between playing on console and handheld. Cloud saves at the very least. Shared library at the very best.
We saw the same situation with the 2 different SMB games and 2 different Super Mario 3d games that we had this gen. That's 1 of each per platform. These games (also) all controlled the same and played similarly. There's no reason these games shouldn't have been on both platforms. Or no reason Nintendo shouldn't have just made 1 SMB game and 1 Super Mario 3d game that played across both platforms. And not have had to make different 4 games in order to have 1 of each per platform.
It would help marketing too. Anybody remember SMB 2 coming out on the 3ds in August 2012 followed by Super Mario Bros U on the Wii U November 2012? That's was the twilight zone buzzkill. That had to kill motivation to get a Wii U or caused customers to not get New SMB 2 cause a SMB game was launching with the Wii U in 3 months. Personally I was just confused. I was wondering where all the coins were in Super Mario Bros U because I had heard something about lots of coins. But I got my platforms mixed up.
TwilightPrincess
Member
10k and emily didn´t say much different things in fact. Emily never spoke of real game performance. She even said you couldn´t compare NX to PS4Xbox1 one on one (Apples and oranges). She said specs (or meant specs) to be nearer to xboxone, not that the console has the same performance. 10k and Emily said practically the same, with 10k believing in polaris (but he seems now confused) and emily in not polaris and not x86.
Metal Dave is on the Xone Specs but stronger train too. But he is/was on the polaris 11 train. That said he thought polaris 11 was weaker than PS4, what´s not true. Doesn´t mean he is wrong, Nintendo could clock it down (that would be so stupid and so nintendo).
I don´t know what to believe either. Emily began a little bit shady years ago and made mistakes but she built up a reputation over the last few years. Don´t think she is making things up. 10k seems a little bit naive (but hey, speculating is fun and it´s still childs play we are talking about)
Akhe
Member
Yeah. I'm not saying that pic is reliabe but I see your pov.
Emily said "raw power," not specs on-paper. She's talking about actual real-world performance. Most likely, we're getting another Wii U launch where some ports look and perform better than Xbone versions and others worse. I expect at least a couple of games to be 1080p60-NEO, 1080p30-PS4B, 900p30-Xbone, 720p30-NX.
Akhe
Member
Exactly! This is why I said "war". I think it was a wrong word to choose.
James Scott
Banned
Metal Dave is seemingly vouching for x86/Polaris.
The only issue is that it seems like this is just his opinion and is not the source that gave him the information that made him famous/noteworthy so I'm not sure it should be taken seriously.
I think it won't use x86 since that seemingly doesn't play nice with handhelds.
The only issue is that it seems like this is just his opinion and is not the source that gave him the information that made him famous/noteworthy so I'm not sure it should be taken seriously.
I think it won't use x86 since that seemingly doesn't play nice with handhelds.
shoryukens
Member
To be expected.
TwilightPrincess
Member
I dont think it will be ps2 vs gamecube.
If we believe Emily, the console would be more modern and if it was Nvidia it perhaps would/could use some NVidia "specific" effects in a small scale. A little bit more framerates in some games if the cpu is faster (some games are cpu hungry but not every game). But it could also be that in some aspects the console would be weaker (ram? bandwith etc.), it also depends on the softwareside not only hardware and on devs. You could say we basicly know not much, if we know anything.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Really sad that Gamecube was the last Nintendo product I was excited about :-( another "lost generation" for me
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
In a recent interview Kimishima said it won't be a successor to Wii U and 3DS,something he's said quite a few times now. I just find that weird though. How is it not? They sure aren't doing much with Wii U anymore.....
TwilightPrincess
Member
She told 10k on twitter that she didn´t mean actual real world performance. She said she didn´t mention performance with a single word. The apples vs. oranges comparison wouldn´t make any sense either if she meant performance. She said herself that 10k basically says the same and "attacked" her for nothing: Lower specs, but performance propably higher.
Think it was bad wording with "raw power". It really was some drama on twitter and gaf. But 10k apologized to her.
I don't agree with 5)
Looking at what zelda did on gamecube or mario Galaxy on wii or mariokart and zeldau on wiiu. We could almost say Nintendo is best in creating the best gfx on a console with the power they have.
The main point conveyed in this rumour is that the hardware is not powerful, it's even the conclusion.
For an apple and orange mention, there's no talk about efficiency, hint at being in a good spot powerwise to get current games (that we got by someone else), anything positive actually.
The rest is post article convoluted damage control that could have been in the post if intended.
It's a mess.
For an apple and orange mention, there's no talk about efficiency, hint at being in a good spot powerwise to get current games (that we got by someone else), anything positive actually.
The rest is post article convoluted damage control that could have been in the post if intended.
It's a mess.
Looking at the clock rates of the latest nVidia cards I could see how the shader unit count could be for example (considerable) lower than PS4s while still being at the same level performance wise.
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Yes, as well as x86 or ARM having nothing to do with the Graphical capabilities of NX.
LordOfChaos
Member
What I said should answer that too. Like the desktop parts, it will have higher performance per flop, or if you prefer lower flops for a given amount of performance, than any GCN architecture, since it is the same architecture as the desktop parts now (k1 and x1). A Tegra with Pascal isn't yet out, but based on the Maxwell and Kepler ones it should have the same performance to flops ratio as the desktop parts, just scaled down.
What I meant was more pre-GCN, or perhaps post-GCN, the ratios of ALU performance to shading performance to pixel fill to texture mapping is always shifting. GCN just favored compute, Kepler cut some of it out to make a more efficient gaming chip, Maxwell only brought some back. May shift again with Polaris vs Pascal.
So I guess, my point was just, "An AMD flop will always perform worse than an Nvidia flop" is too general for my liking, and nor is it inherently a bad thing as AMD favored compute, hence more flops in a given architecture for a certain graphics performance level.
Intel too, more FLOPs, and thus compute performance, than you'd expect from their IGPs graphics performance level. Like AMD, favoring compute.
So why might one want more flops than one would expect from a given performance level? Check this out: once you pushed the full 128 (!) compute sources GCN could handle without longer execution times, it could do 10x (!!!) the compute work without slowing down as Maxwell so far.
To Nvidias credit, a low amount of compute work ended up being faster on Maxwell than GCN. But once you add more compute work, GCN does it without increasing execution time, unlike Maxwell.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ading-amd-nvidia-and-dx12-what-we-know-so-far
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/dx12-performance-discussion-and-analysis-thread.57188/page-11
AMD went compute heavy current gen, Nvidia did not, there's nothing inherantly good or bad about an "nvidia flop outperforming an AMD flop". It just means for performance X AMD will have more compute flops at its disposal. It's like when people say GPU X does performance Z with less cores than GPU A. Well...Who cares? All that matters is performance, price, power draw, and for the GPU maker, die size.
To put my rambling more simply...GPU 1 has performance of 20 units, and 20 flops, which happen to measure compute performance. GPU 2 has 20 performance, for 30 flops. Is GPU 1 "better" just because it has higher performance per flop? Or is GPU 2 better because it has the same performance, for *also* more flops, which more measure what you can compute with it than its gaming performance?
I have to politely disagree.
If we are talking about 1 single platform I'd say we should think of mobile and living room as two different contexts...
Most ARM chips can scale up to 10 CPUs and depending on the vendor for the GPU various cores for that. Most mobile devices aren't running at 100% due to thermal and power limitations.
In a living room context thermal and power are quickly solved to give you resolution of 1080P. Keep in mind 1080P is actually lower then most tablets. My iPad Pro is running at 2732x2048. That over 3 million pixels more then 1080p tvs. The iPhone runs similar hardware and runs at 1080p in your hand without issue.
It's feasible Nintendo could get a beefy ARM SOC and run at one performance profile when on battery (lower resolution, turn off parts of the GPU, spin down cores of the CPU), but have everything run at full power when connected to a tv with a power cable.
Granted no one has done this before, but it is certainly feasible.
This is plain false. 10k first reported that NX is 2 x PS4 in terms of power and it has a Polaris based chip, This was in the thread started with 10k "leaks". All the following rumors he reported on were practically running around these specs. Only after Emily came out and said that this is absurd, 10k reduced a bit his predictions, dropping the 2 x PS4 but sticking with the Polaris story. So no, Emily and 10k don't say the same thing. At some point 10k was up to NX is on par or better than PS4k.
Also Trev was also on board of NX being more powerful than PS4 and having Polaris, so let's not rewrite the history here. Now he's still sticking to Polaris and X86 architecture.
I think you read #5 wrong. I didn't say anything about what Nintendo is best at. I said they do what's best for their needs. And I mentioned what some of their needs are.
Hm... Then is she referring to a calculated number like FLOPs, or some kind of on-paper number? Like, what if it's a Maxwell GPU with 640 CUDA cores compared to Xbone's 768 SPs? Something like that would explain a lot, especially the "stretch" statement if coming from someone uninformed.
Most probably.
Agreed. She's almost certainly looking at a number/numbers written down. There's really nothing else a developer could show/tell her that would give her something to measure and compare to other platforms at this stage.
Yeah. Interestingly, there's now a 75W version of the GTX 950, which happens to have exactly 768 CUDA cores. The GPU itself is probably around 60W. A Pascal GPU with a similar number of cores and similar clocks would use under 40W. That would actually beat PS4. It would be crazy if it turned out that way in the end.
I think the guy you replied to wasn't making the opposite of your argument which seems to be why we will see 1 form factor. He was just talking about how a shared library makes sense.
Anyway how much faster is your Ipad Pro when plugged in?
In the end there are more variables to this, like the memory amount, bandwidth and clock, CPU clock and so on. But it has a good chance that the overall real performance to be somewhere on par with PS4. But that can't be proven as of now, so we stick with what we have, somewhat around XBone on paper.
Well, I doubt they would have less memory at least. Bandwidth is indeed an issue though, since I doubt that Nintendo would go with GDDR5. Hm... I really hope that they don't waste die space on fucking eSRAM and that they just up the bus to 256-bit and use LPDDR4.
Looking at die sizes and assuming Nintendo would want a small die, I'd say that they're using a modified GM107 with 512 active CUDA cores at 900-1000MHz and a 256-bit bus, along with 8-12GB LPDDR4. That seems like the most logical guess.
Cool. Well either way, "it" (the leak) can only be referring to some form of written spec, imo.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
That's a frighteningly logical post ; )
And that's a very good analogy, actually, and the best explanation of the 'Why paper FLOPS (or any other single metric) should not be taken at face value, let alone at face value and in isolation' I've seen on gaf yet.
DragonSworne
Banned
Too much wattage for Nintendo.
Yes, this is my impression too.
TwilightPrincess
Member
Can be, i am talking about the last few days and here 10k said/meant basically the same as emily in one regard, while fighting her about it. Specs could be lower, performance better than specs would tell. He still hopes/believes in polaris but isn´t too sure anymore.
Personaly i don´t know what to believe, i only know that 10k is a little bit naive and not too sure of his "leaks"/rumours.
TwilightPrincess
Member
Seems like it, yes.
Proelite
Member
Until some dev decides to troll him with false info.
"GTX 1070 equivalent in NX. I work on a third party indie game."
cartman414
Member
No, they used to. Only worked with the Wii.
LordOfChaos
Member
AMD ARM Apple win? What's this?
There was talk of AMD making semicustom chips for Apple with Zen APUs, but this is for the iMac, and x86.
http://wccftech.com/amd-making-custom-x86-soc-apple-imacs-2017-2018/
So the ARM win "beyond gaming" is still a curiousity. Two x86 wins are accounted for, one that AMD didn't even mention is possible with the iMac APU...What's the ARM AMD win for Apple?
TwilightPrincess
Member
Yeah, i know^^ I didn´t want to talk that much about him either. I mentioned him because emily backed up the "written down specs on paper" thingy while "arguing" with him.
Personally i hope that NX is strong enough to get good PS4 ports ( on par), then the specs won´t matter too much. And i would like to see what nintendo does with that hardware.
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