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Epic: "I think the console guys are going to blow us all away"

^ Glad you represent the market as a whole.

Whoops! My bad. Well some folks did in this thread, and I know you've noticed Mark saying similar things over the course of the past year :)

Actually the comments I had pointed out came from Capps. Apparently now that it's time to sell, Rein is at the forefront.
 

mclem

Member
I'm dying to know how this will play out. I wonder if one company is perhaps considering going relatively cheap (i.e. rumors next xbox isn't much better than Wii-U) and he's trying to talk them out of it ?

I think that *not* doing that is an extremely risky move. I don't believe I've seen any developer actually *ask* for significantly more power other than Epic, and they've got an ulterior motive.

I fear Rein's worried that the hardware manufacturers believe that significantly more power is not what the industry en masse actually *wants* right now, and so they have the fear that if they do make something ridiculously powerful, only a few companies will really take advantage of the fact - at which point, who are you *actually* designing the console for?


There's further observations about risk. Assuming that the Wii U is the bottom line, then if *one* of the other two consoles is equivalent to it, and the other is significantly more powerful, suddenly there's *two* systems to develop for at a similar level and one which, if you lead on it, is not going to be portable to the others. That's rather restrictive for any multiplatform developers.
 
It's not necessarily that one will go "cheap", just that they may spend their money elsewhere. As an example, throwing Kinect 2 in the box will require you to shave money on the BOM of the hardware *or* take a heavier loss. Including a tablet controller - same deal.


Yeah I think if one system is getting a fancy controller besides Nintendo, it will be hard to match the other plain controller system's graphics abilities without taking more of a loss.

If anyone could afford to that it, it would be MS. - Match the PS4's graphics and price tag while including a fancy tablet controller.

Contrary to what some think on this forum, I believe if both MS and Sony launch within a close window, barring a dramatically higher price tag, the more powerful system will have a perceivable mind share advantage.
 

mclem

Member
Contrary to what some think on this forum, I believe if both MS and Sony launch within a close window, barring a dramatically higher price tag, the more powerful system will have a perceivable mind share advantage.

I think almost exactly the opposite!

(*almost* exactly because I'm not saying that the *weaker* system will automatically have a mindshare advantage instead; I'm saying that whichever system the public latches on to will have nothing to do with the power output it has)
 
^ Glad you represent the market as a whole.



Actually the comments I had pointed out came from Capps. Apparently now that it's time to sell, Rein is at the forefront.

I clearly don't, but I do represent the part of the market that buys a disproportionately large amount of content compared to their size. I would hope that the new consoles will cater to my insanity just a little. My expectations for next gen are depressingly reasonable, and I just hope that they'll be at least somewhat surpassed.
 

StevieP

Banned
I don't care if the thing costs 1000 dollars put as much fucking raw robot shit into that motherfucker and I'll buy it day 1. We've been stagnant way too long, I want some bleeding edge shit. I want to return to the point where every year was leaps and bounds more advanced than the year prior.

That's a dangerous attitude to have, both in terms of financial liability, industry health, company health, and most importantly - a console priced ridiculously high may not have the software ecosystem as a result of poor adoption. And I say this as someone who sees where you're coming from.

Not to say I don't like powerful boxes, but that's why I have a high-end PC and a girlfriend.

Actually the comments I had pointed out came from Capps. Apparently now that it's time to sell, Rein is at the forefront.

I'm having a pretty bad brain-fart day today (I blame Evillore!) but you know what I meant. The statements coming from Rein today are a little bit more urgent in tone but they're pretty much the same message. Dropping the "Apple will outdo you!" line just makes it the seller's icing on the cake.

Yeah I think if one system is getting a fancy controller besides Nintendo, it will be hard to match the other plain controller system's graphics abilities without taking more of a loss.

If anyone could afford to that it, it would be MS. - Match the PS4's graphics and price tag while including a fancy tablet controller.

Contrary to what some think on this forum, I believe if both MS and Sony launch within a close window, barring a dramatically higher price tag, the more powerful system will have a perceivable mind share advantage.

But you have to take into account that poorer adoption as the result of a much higher pricetag affects the viability of the platform in the future, and could even result in a *poorer* mindshare. There are examples of that in history. Charlequin could probably speak more eloquently on this matter.
 
I clearly don't, but I do represent the part of the market that buys a disproportionately large amount of content compared to their size. I would hope that the new consoles will cater to my insanity just a little. My expectations for next gen are depressingly reasonable, and I just hope that they'll be at least somewhat surpassed.

LOL. Well if they are "depressingly reasonable" I would assume you are going to be fine then.
 
I think that *not* doing that is an extremely risky move. I don't believe I've seen any developer actually *ask* for significantly more power other than Epic, and they've got an ulterior motive.

Crytek basically said anything less than 8GB of ram in the next gen consoles would be a huge disappointment. LOL

I fear Rein's worried that the hardware manufacturers believe that significantly more power is not what the industry en masse actually *wants* right now, and so they have the fear that if they do make something ridiculously powerful, only a few companies will really take advantage of the fact - at which point, who are you *actually* designing the console for?

Yeah but if that was the case, why would he be confident enough to say that he didn't think his nightmare scenario would happen ? I mean we're close enough to next gen, that industry insiders have got to have a pretty decent idea of what they'll be dealing with. The DF leaks and everything out there seems to show the designs are already known within some circles.

This is speculation, but I think they may have an A and B version PS4/Xbox 3 on the drawing board and it's really coming down to the final decision time.

There's further observations about risk. Assuming that the Wii U is the bottom line, then if *one* of the other two consoles is equivalent to it, and the other is significantly more powerful, suddenly there's *two* systems to develop for at a similar level and one which, if you lead on it, is not going to be portable to the others. That's rather restrictive for any multiplatform developers.

Well the more powerful system would have to be the market leader, or the best it will ever get is the "definitive" version of 3rd party games that don't push the hardware to its limit. But even that would be a tangible benefit.
 
I don't care if the thing costs 1000 dollars put as much fucking raw robot shit into that motherfucker and I'll buy it day 1. We've been stagnant way too long, I want some bleeding edge shit. I want to return to the point where every year was leaps and bounds more advanced than the year prior.

Fuck...YES! I am READY.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Considering what 28nm is bringing and that you can build a PC with off the shelf consumer pricing for <$500 that does 1080p @ 60FPS on High settings over a large amount of titles I wouldn't be surprised if consoles do have a nice noticeable boost.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
there is not a single platform where all games are available. PC has plenty high-profile exclusives (assuming you love strategies and online games), consoles have them too.
True, but for that very reason it makes sense to want every platform to be as powerful and capable as possible.
 
But you have to take into account that poorer adoption as the result of a much higher pricetag affects the viability of the platform in the future, and could even result in a *poorer* mindshare. There are examples of that in history. Charlequin could probably speak more eloquently on this matter.


Well I said barring a dramatically higher price tag. Or if MS is unwilling to absorb the loss, but insists on going Wii-Too and has tablet controllers, they will have to cut corners somewhere.
 

mclem

Member
Crytek basically said anything less than 8GB of ram in the next gen consoles would be a huge disappointment. LOL
Also people with an engine to sell.

Yeah but if that was the case, why would he be confident enough to say that he didn't think his nightmare scenario would happen ? I mean we're close enough to next gen, that industry insiders have got to have a pretty decent idea of what they'll be dealing with. The DF leaks and everything out there seems to show the designs are already known within some circles.

He's still arguing it as a possibility, which makes me wonder if he thinks - after the 360 memory stuff - that Epic has the clout to convince them. Is there an unvoiced "If they listen to us, which we believe they will do, because look what we did in the past"?

Well the more powerful system would have to be the market leader, or the best it will ever get is the "definitive" version of 3rd party games that don't push the hardware to its limit. But even that would be a tangible benefit.
Tangible, yes, but *useful*? Did the (original) Xbox thrive as a result? Did the PS3?
 

LeleSocho

Banned
The new iPad is more powerful than an Xbox360 or a Playstation 3. It's more powerful than a Vita, has a bigger screen, and more than triple the battery life. They also come out with a new one every year, instead of in huge 7 year cycles.

ITT: I don't know what i'm saying.
 
That's a dangerous attitude to have, both in terms of financial liability, industry health, company health, and most importantly - a console priced ridiculously high may not have the software ecosystem as a result of poor adoption. And I say this as someone who sees where you're coming from.

Not to say I don't like powerful boxes, but that's why I have a high-end PC and a girlfriend.

But you have to take into account that poorer adoption as the result of a much higher pricetag affects the viability of the platform in the future, and could even result in a *poorer* mindshare. There are examples of that in history. Charlequin could probably speak more eloquently on this matter.

Yeah, I understand what you mean, and I agree. High end PC gaming isn't for me though, as I want to pay that 1000 dollars up front and then not have to pay it again for 5 years, unlike the staggered and eventually higher costing PC solution.

I also see the necessity to price the machine competitively in order to facilitate more than just diehard early adopters like myself.

That being said, to me, the Wii U specs couldn't be more disappointing to me, and I'm hoping that we at least get the other two in the same league as the wii to the 360, for example.

Also, maybe I'm just being dense today, but whats your g/f have to do with high end PC hardware?
 

mclem

Member
Considering what 28nm is bringing and that you can build a PC with off the shelf consumer pricing for <$500 that does 1080p @ 60FPS on High settings over a large amount of titles I wouldn't be surprised if consoles do have a nice noticeable boost.

I am completely certain it's possible to make a reasonably-priced console with a significant performance boost for a minimal loss per unit sold.

I am also completely certain that that's a bad idea.


We've had loads of closures over the past gen. Companies have struggled to meet the requirements for HD development. Profit margins on boxed product have got ridiculously slim.

Where is the *profit* going to come from in a significantly more powerful console? In what way will it be healthy for the industry?
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
I am completely certain it's possible to make a reasonably-priced console with a significant performance boost for a minimal loss per unit sold.

I am also completely certain that that's a bad idea.


We've had loads of closures over the past gen. Companies have struggled to meet the requirements for HD development. Profit margins on boxed product have got ridiculously slim.

Where is the *profit* going to come from in a significantly more powerful console? In what way will it be healthy for the industry?
I'm not going to even get into the business side of it. It's easily doable, but I don't think we'll see that kind of jump for the reasons you said.
Sony might do it though. Really depends what the guy up top thinks and if they still go on with 'Design what the consumer should want' and not 'What the consumer wants'.

That said I'd expect 1080 standard with 30fps and AA, and more 60fps titles (Because you have to actually design for 60). Then it becomes "Why release it if it's not a substantial boost?" Which is where most people are at right now.
I can't see either company really WANTING to release new hardware soon.
 
What the shit? What are you even trying to say? That ports and sequels don't exist on new hardware? That's just beyond insane.

Because with every new gen there are new IPs being created and then sequels of these new IPs released later in the gen. Think of the new IPs this gen. Gears of War, Uncharted, Assassins Creed, Demon/ Dark Souls, etc. I want more of these new creations and the only way this will happen is with a new gen. I want new types of gameplay. I want new tech to spur creation, potential, etc. this gen has lasted too long as is. It's time.
 

Jburton

Banned
The new iPad is more powerful than an Xbox360 or a Playstation 3. It's more powerful than a Vita, has a bigger screen, and more than triple the battery life. They also come out with a new one every year, instead of in huge 7 year cycles.

Lol, these iOS fanboys have been really shitting up the gaming forum the past few days.

Delusional, talk about getting high off your own supply.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
So strictly power wise, how long until we actually see the iPad surpass the vita in real world video game performance?

1-2 years?

The one thing I feel people have to give apple is they are very good at getting power out of low wattage chips. Id be scared if I were Microsoft or Sony and apple wanted to move into their market via some apple TV or apple box.
 
I wouldn't call "miles behind the first place" working (really) well. By the way, are they both profitable (in total) at this point ? Where would 360 be without Kinect ? Would it have been worth it for Sony without the money from Bluray ? Would it have worked for them if the Wii had been powerful enough to receive 3rd party ports ? Can e.g. Sony really afford to stay in the reds for years again ? Wouldn't they have done better if PS3 had been a bit weaker but also cheaper ?

Obviously neither of them bombed, but it's not as if it worked perfectly fine for them. It's a risk that may be worth taking, but it's still a risk nonetheless. What if Wii U becomes a success ? That could very well screw up the whole "subsidize more power" concept and force them to innovate.

It's a difficult decision and I'm fortunate I don't have to make it.

Seriously, unless you're shareholder at either MS/Sony/Nintendo what relevance is it to you how much profit their making right now? The point is there are. The fact that you want them to take less risk and be more conservative while probably still charging 300+ for hardware is mind boggling. What benefit would it be to you if MS & Sony made similar consoles as Nintendo? Do you like having less options?
 
Lol, these iOS fanboys have been really shitting up the gaming forum the past few days.

Delusional, talk about getting high off your own supply.

IOS fanboys eh.

I picked up both the 3DS and Vita day 1. You will find most who frequent the iOS gaming thread also have consoles and handhelds from the big 3. But yea, total Apple fanboys. SMH.
 
Seriously, unless you're shareholder at either MS/Sony/Nintendo what relevance is it to you how much profit their making right now? The point is there are. The fact that you want them to take less risk and be more conservative while probably still charging 300+ for hardware is mind boggling. What benefit would it be to you if MS & Sony made similar consoles as Nintendo? Do you like having less options?

Some people actually care about the health of the home console market and would rather not see another crash happen.
 

RooMHM

Member
So what's your theory on why devs use UE? Let me remind you that Gears of War 1 was pretty much the undisputed best looking game of 2006.
Tools, follower theory. Having UE3 on the box sells. It's stupid and all but it's true.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
As a long time hardcore gamer I would love to see another crash to reset the industry and clear out the dedicated from less dedicated elements.

Wow...there are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.
 

Opiate

Member
How many Wii's did Nintendo shift without the benefit of cutting-edge technology or even an early launch window?

Nintendo isn't part of the market they're talking about. Very few people say this out loud, but the market is PS3/360, Sony/Microsoft, not "home consoles."
 
Some people actually care about the health of the home console market and would rather not see another crash happen.

Odds are, this current generation will probably end up with higher overall userbase than the previous one. People are playing games now more than ever.

You can worry about a crash that's never going to happen, and the "health" of the industry. I'll enjoy playing games
 

Opiate

Member
Seriously, unless you're shareholder at either MS/Sony/Nintendo what relevance is it to you how much profit their making right now? The point is there are. The fact that you want them to take less risk and be more conservative while probably still charging 300+ for hardware is mind boggling. What benefit would it be to you if MS & Sony made similar consoles as Nintendo? Do you like having less options?

Here's a question to test your position: do you think it would be good if Corvette offered to sell all their cars for 1 dollar?

Good side: you get a Corvette today for 1 dollar.
Bad side: you never get a Corvette ever again afterwards, because they'll be bankrupt within hours.

Do you care about Corvettes in particular, or do you just want the best possible deal you can get right now, regardless of the consequences long term?

The same basic principle applies here. Profitability allows a company to grow and expand its offerings to you. Some games and services which would exist today if the Playstation 3 made 5 billion dollars do not exist in reality because the Playstation 3 lost 5 billion. Some new IPs or creative ideas which might have been greenlit by companies such as EA, Take 2 and THQ don't exist today because the costs are too high and insolvency is a real issue (consider THQ as an example).

If the consoles aren't profitable, then corners will eventually need to be cut -- the only reason they haven't been cut yet is that Sony and MS had assumed, until quite recently, that the convergence device of the future was going to be a video game console.

Furthermore, having hardware be profitable from day 1 allows the manufacturers to take other risks instead. If I'm taking a 100 dollar loss on a machine (a la Xbox 360 at launch), the system has to be as safe as possible; it needs to appeal to a reliable market and feature safe, time tested designs, because putting out a risky, innovative product while also risking loss leading is insane. However, if you have a system that makes money from the start, you can be more inventive with hardware; you can try hardware designs and ideas which legitimately run the risk of failure, because in the worst case scenario of total failure you're at least safeguarding yourself against losses.

There are lots of good reasons to want companies to step down from the arms race; it would provide a safer long term outlook (which I assume you want, and would like consoles to still exist 10-15 years from now), it would allow companies to divert much of their risk tolerance towards creative hardware design, and it would help games which cannot be funded in the current risk averse market climate have a significantly greater chance of acquiring funding.
 

Mahonay

Banned
Crytek basically said anything less than 8GB of ram in the next gen consoles would be a huge disappointment. LOL



Yeah but if that was the case, why would he be confident enough to say that he didn't think his nightmare scenario would happen ? I mean we're close enough to next gen, that industry insiders have got to have a pretty decent idea of what they'll be dealing with. The DF leaks and everything out there seems to show the designs are already known within some circles.

This is speculation, but I think they may have an A and B version PS4/Xbox 3 on the drawing board and it's really coming down to the final decision time.
The upgrade to 512MB of RAM happened last moment for the 360. That's part of the reason Perfect Dark Zero came out the way it did. It was built to run on the lower specs.
 
Following your logic I assume you want them to build $800 consoles and sell them at $200 ? Why not make it $100 if profitability means jack shit ? I'm trying to be realistic and explained that subsidizing your console is risky and that simply making more powerful consoles may not be sufficient. Furthermore I argued that since it's so risky, it'd be a good idea for them to innovate. In no way did I say that I "want" them to make a weak console or make similar consoles as Nintendo, unless that's your synonym for innovating.

I said "how much profit" not if there not making any at all, You say powerful consoles may not be sufficient, then you say you don't want them to make a weak console, or make similar consoles as nintendo. Then what do you want? Cause odds one of those three scenarios will happen.

That aside as a gamer I have an interest in a stable and long-living video game market that provides deep and satisfying experiences. Of course I can wish e.g. for all games to cost $1 like e.g. some "tech journalists" do, but outside of my dreams that's gonna lead to severe constraints on video games.

Yup, me too. We're in an agreement. However I feel all three offer this in different ways, and I hope that diversity continues next gen.
Edit:
 
I'm sorry but...Cmon. You played Gears 3? Or Batman? I mean, you can't be serious about IB2 looking better, I hope you are not.

infinity-blade-2-ipad.jpg

IB2_Screen_SirisVsNoc.jpg

IB2_Screen_Siris_MilleniumHall.jpg


*shrugs* looks about on par to me
 

jonabbey

Member
I hope that the new consoles can be both profitable and stunning. Hopefully the price to be paid for the consoles being loss leaders last time is the length of this generation, not the knee-capping of the next gen.
 

Mooreberg

Member
I'm glad to hear the feeling out of GDC is that the next consoles will provide a jump that isn't half assed. Xbox 360 will be eight years old by the time Microsoft's next system comes out. Just doing a minor upgrade isn't going to cut it.
 

mclem

Member
Because with every new gen there are new IPs being created and then sequels of these new IPs released later in the gen. Think of the new IPs this gen. Gears of War, Uncharted, Assassins Creed, Demon/ Dark Souls, etc. I want more of these new creations and the only way this will happen is with a new gen. I want new types of gameplay. I want new tech to spur creation, potential, etc. this gen has lasted too long as is. It's time.

Xenoblade. Binary Domain. Kingdoms of Amalur. Ghost Trick. Lollipop Chainsaw.

New IP's turn up when they turn up. Sometimes it's at the start of a gen. But it's not the start of a gen that makes it happen.
 
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