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EuroGamer: More details on the BALANCE of XB1
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SenjutsuSage
Banned
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Oh, and tiled resources makes it possible to store 3GB worth of texture data in just 16MB of memory. But, I know, tiled resources won't be used on the Xbox One at all...
32MB starts to look mighty big in retrospect.shinra-bansho
Member
You're supposed to think it's unbalanced. Didn't you read the earlier Digital Foundry article...
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IIRC, lherre has the devkits so probably knows the actual OS allocations...
The point is pretty clear, there's only a very small pool of fast RAM.
Thats what I don't get. How does 32mb help. It's faster yes, but its such a smaller amount of memory. Can someone explain?
CassidyIzABeast
Member
People will walk in asking for CU and Tflops comparisons?
WetPotatoBread
Banned
Megabalanced.
Delusibeta
Banned
Judging by the fact that both consoles have vastly more powerful graphics cards compared to their CPUs, I suspect that said graphics cards will do the majority of the gruntwork this gen, which would mean the PS4 would have a massive advantage. Of course, if developers stick to getting the CPU to do all the work, both machines will be as equally as shite.
The point is that it isn't faster then the PS4 main memory. It's only faster than the slow DDR3 in the Xbox One.
Nothing changed.
MS continuously trying to spin the narrative has been the best pre launch.
PS4 is so good it's unbalanced.
This is now the MS argument. Amazing.
Funny, they off-loaded a lot of graphics tasks to the CPU (well, the SPUs) on PS3 to compensate for the below par-GPU. It's surprising to me these things are so interchangeable.
That's just so bloody wrong!
See, I think this is fair. I may disagree on the ultimate conclusions, or on the impact of resolution, something that none of us would have known either way without pixel counting or an outright admission (example, nobody knew either killer instinct or ryse weren't 1080p until somebody said something), but I think there's absolutely nothing necessarily wrong with your conclusions. You are entitled to those opinions, and I respect them. It's true that both systems will have games that look far better than the launch stuff, and that brings us to an interesting dynamic. What are we really talking about? The fact that the PS4 is the notably stronger machine? We know that already. The real issue is that I feel people, unfairly, label the Xbox One as weak and incapable, and all I'm trying to say is that weaker than the PS4 doesn't make it weak. I think the biggest difference between the two machines will be resolution. I think performance will more or less be up to snuff on Xbox One titles, as will the visual fidelity, even if the PS4 has an edge. The real thing that's up for discussion is just how big will that edge be. How noticeable will it be? I can't say, I just don't think it will be massive. Others do. I guess we'll find out.
Just to clarify something, I don't think the PS4 is super powerful. I'm actually disappointed with the specs of both consoles and wanted better, especially on the GPU front. So If I think the PS4 is merely adequate or good in performance, the Xbox One comparative to it would be inadequate or mediocre wouldn't it? That's where the XO gets the term "weak" thrown in, because some people already view the PS4 as only average powered, so compared to that the Xbox One comes off as "weak". Obviously with closed platform advantages and optimisations, the hardware deficiencies become less prominent.
The performance differences between the two consoles is made worse by the fact that the Xbox One is $100 more expensive. The PS4 I can manage to call decent value at $399, but neither console is as good value as the PS3/360 were at launch. I also don't give a shit about Kinect, Move and all the rest. So for me, gaming performance is primary over novelty control gimmicks (imo).
Brad Grenz
Member
And that's how we can tell they're full of it.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
Is it not supplementary streaming hyperfast memory?
Risk Breaker
Member
If they were building with 14CUs for redundancy in manufacturing, they couldn't have simply activated them anyway, so what are they going to say
Now wait for people to believe/expect MS to unlock the power of those 2CUs!!!1
Now wait for people to believe/expect MS to unlock the power of those 2CUs!!!1
Which will happen the same day that Sony unlocks the secret SPE on the PS3
BrainZEROX
Member
No they won't because 2 are for redundancy which means an unknown number of consoles will be sold with 2 defective CUs among the 14. It's exactly the same reason why we never ever had games that used 8 SPEs on PS3. One of them was set for redundancy and was either disabled or defective and, then, never used.
XB1 has a 12 operational CUs GPU, not one more, not one less.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
PS4 OS uses no memory at all? Revolutionary. Like I said, 5.5GB, maybe 6GB with time. Xbox One's 5GB will also likely eventually make it to 6GB, since about 1GB of that was just precautionary reservation from what I've heard.
That's all fair. Maybe I tend to hate the comparisons so much between the two, since I'm going to have both, and wonder why we can't all just get along and all that jazz. You have an opinion, and as I said, I respect that. Yes, the $100 price advantage likely guarantees the PS4 wins the generation. It's a big thing to be able to undercut the Xbox One like that. I'm excited about both systems, and I'm also happy to be getting the new Kinect with the Xbox One. I'm pretty excited about using it for a variety of things, particularly how it's setup in the Witcher 3, which could be fucking awesome with the fidelity the new Kinect has shown. Spell casting with Kinect in Witcher? Bring it
I think it's also maybe a bit wrong to not view the PS4 as super powerful. It's a MONSTER when we're considering the talent of the devs that will be working on it exclusively, added to the fact that we are dealing with closed box systems. Look at what Naughty Dog and the God of War team did on so little RAM and GPU on the PS3. Look what they did with a system that was a pain in the ass to code for? What will they do with a system SIGNIFICANTLY easier and faster to work with, and that is stacked with this much ram? The PS4 will stun it's entire lifespan. The games made on this will never cease to impress, even by PC standards, and I'm probably in a minority in thinking that the Xbox One will have some serious stunners as well.
travisbickle
Member
So "balance" is the word they've thrown to the masses of willing online cannon-fodder ready to run into the firing line of game/tech communities. "Balance"!!! Not even "secret-sauce", "incalculable spec-boosts" or "blast processing".
Chobel
Member
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Oh, and tiled resources makes it possible to store 3GB worth of texture data in just 16MB of memory. But, I know, tiled resources won't be used on the Xbox One at all...
Wut???
Whiteshirt
Member
Well, there's a reason why some people have been saying that the PS4's GPU is basically Cell 2.0.
Its a bit of a different situation in this case. The RSX had some problems compared to the Xenon so you had the Cell do some of the grunt work to help it out. In this case, some things lend themselves very well to parallel computing, like physics (refer to Resogun), so you could get better than expected results. Especially in a closed environment like a console.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
Both the PS4 and the X1 are delivering better value than the PS3 was at $600. How is that even debatable?
plagiarize
Banned
what I'm getting from this is as follows: close but inferior in most multiplats. missing GPU compute heavy features in exclusives and in occasional multiplatform games where the developers put in the extra effort on PS4 (or accept help from a team of Sony programmers).
that's what Xbox One owners will find when they buy their system. it's far from a slap in the face. you can tell from the exclusives that it's a very capable system. it's just less capable.
given Kinect, and that they're selling for a profit, Microsoft might be getting more bang for their buck, and can be legitimately proud of the hardware they've put together.
gamers, however, will be getting more bang for their buck buying a PS4.
that's what Xbox One owners will find when they buy their system. it's far from a slap in the face. you can tell from the exclusives that it's a very capable system. it's just less capable.
given Kinect, and that they're selling for a profit, Microsoft might be getting more bang for their buck, and can be legitimately proud of the hardware they've put together.
gamers, however, will be getting more bang for their buck buying a PS4.
I suppose you could do some crazy maths with requiring PS+ to play a lot of the multiplayer titles, but it'd be just that. Crazy.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
The article is an interesting read but the author still misses the 16 ROPs vs 32 ROPs, it's like he's completely oblivious of this fact.
Add in the higher overall bandwidth and the frame-rate analysis video would show a larger difference in frame rate.
Anyway, the multi-platform ports will speak for themselves and i'm sure Eurogamer will be keen to highlight the differences are per current gen.
Add in the higher overall bandwidth and the frame-rate analysis video would show a larger difference in frame rate.
Anyway, the multi-platform ports will speak for themselves and i'm sure Eurogamer will be keen to highlight the differences are per current gen.
DenogginizerOS
BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
No, but when asked to answer the question of which is more powerful, clerks will become YouTube stars in an instant.
shinra-bansho
Member
You seemingly missed the point entirely. Your correction was relatively redundant to someone who knows the actual OS memory allocations and was simply pointing out that one has 8GB of fast RAM and the other only has 32MB.
Why do you keep repeating this over and over as if it's supposed to mean anything to anyone?
BrainZEROX
Member
Ah OK, sorry. Based on your post history I was wondering how come you'd make such a mistake. Not your kind of post.
My mistake then... ;-)
Anyway, I believe XB1 is indeed a balanced system. I also believe PS4 is another balanced one and it is balanced at a higher level of performance.
It is debatable. Because both the PS3/360 were further ahead of their time technologically speaking compared to the PS4/XO today. Add to that the manufacturing losses were much greater for both Sony and Microsoft with these current gen consoles at launch than they will be with the new machines.
Thanks
I'd debate it. Sony took a huge lose per PS3, and consumer BluRay players were a grand each at the time.
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Oh, and tiled resources makes it possible to store 3GB worth of texture data in just 16MB of memory. But, I know, tiled resources won't be used on the Xbox One at all...
You either need to stop commenting or some things or go read more, tiled resources store a subset of components in memory not the entire thing.
They really aren't in terms of the hardware they are selling you.
Brad Grenz
Member
A lot of the pro-Xbox people seem to completely misunderstand how PRT works. Also they keep referring back to a Build demo of tiled resources that used 16MB of RAM that actually looked really crappy, so it doesn't exactly bolster their position.
Where/When did we get explicit info that PS4 games can access full 6GB GDDR5 memory ?
SenjutsuSage
Banned
http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/xbo...-2-from-32mb-to-6gb-worth-of-texture-1448545/
Maybe you should read.
This is well documented and covered, even on all the major tech sites. Microsoft showcased 3GB worth of texture data only needing to use 16MB worth of physical memory, and this is a feature on the Xbox One. Don't think for a second they aren't going to use it. 32MB is not as small as you'd think when technology like this is in play. And, yes, I know Sony has access to similar tech through their own API.
http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/AMD/sparse_texture.txt
Nope, more like you're trying to deny what tiled resources does just to fit with that agenda of yours. I know it allows the textures to not actually need to be physically resident inside memory, but the fact of the matter is that 16MB worth of physical memory, when dealing with the virtualization possible with tiled resources, is useful enough to manage 3GB worth of data. Who cares how the mars demo looked, it was still using 3GB worth of texture data. That's the point, the capacity, not how good mars looked. How interesting was that suppose to look? Carmack has already announced that Doom 4 will use the tech also. It also has low bandwidth usage, another plus, and it helps a great deal with shadow maps. These things aren't made up. I know it isn't REALLY 3GB of data suddenly fitting inside 16MB for real, but that's how it works regardless, and the tech is proven. End of story.
I get the arguments for XB1 design being sound enough in terms of what they were shooting for but I'm not getting the implication they also somehow magically trump the design of PS4 even though it has better native specs. This implication of "secret sauce balance" just feels off - if the XB1 is tuned to make the most of its hardware I'm sure the PS4 is too, and given the PS4 has the base advantage I don't see why it's optimized use wouldn't retain that advantage.
So its just PRT which is supported by all GCN cards, nothing to see here guys.
It also does exactly what I said, it only reads in the part of the texture that is required (ie a subset of the actual texture) and not the entire thing, it doesn't suddenly make the 32MB eSRAM any bigger.
Thuway and one other fella who Bish checked out collaborated it I believe. It was mentioned that at least one PS4 game presently already uses 6GB of ram. Several insiders including a Sony dev themselves also confirmed DF's numbers were inaccurate.
Virtual texturing? The horrible thing from Rage? Cool...
It's implemented on HW level I assume?
Sounds incredible.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
#dead
Can Crusher
Banned
So wait a minute.... not even 14 CUS but 12?!
They only stated the DF numbers are wrong, but what wrong it is ?
The number of PS4 virtual ram is wrong ?
Or there is guaranteed 6GB GDDR5 ram access for games ?
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