• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Feminist Frequency: Not Your Exotic Fantasy - Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

L

lightskintwin

Banned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2hYdBxxTTM

This episode explores the ways in which sexist, racist stereotypes about Black women and tribal cultures that date back for centuries are often still perpetuated today in representations of women from indigenous and tribal cultures in video games. These representations link sexism and racism to exotify these women, depicting them as primitive, savage, and hypersexualized. We examine the historical roots of these racist and sexist myths in America and the damage they continue to cause, and demonstrate how these representations are acts of cultural appropriation. We then conclude by sharing some examples of games that challenge damaging stereotypes rather than reinforcing them by offering representations of people and cultures that are honest, respectful, and humanizing.
Click to expand...

Edit: Full Transcript - https://feministfrequency.com/video/not-your-exotic-fantasy/

What do you think?
 
J

James Scott

Banned
The Sheva costume didn't do RE5 any favors when it came to racist accusations.
The video's intro is fairly damning
L.O.R.D said:
just to warn people who haven't finished Far Cry 3 yet,story and ending spoiler in the video.
Click to expand...
Yeah, had Pandora's Tower spoiled for me in a previous episode. Would be nice if she threw up a spoiler warning in the video.
 
C

Corleth the Fey

Member
Always great to see a Feminist Frequency video. Anita has been through so much to keep us informed.

Looking at the subject matter, is it bad that I hope the double bubble of issues raised here are going to give some of those moronic scum bag haters real aneurysms?
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
For those who can't watch, here's a full transcript + list of games referenced (if you care about spoilers)

https://feministfrequency.com/video/not-your-exotic-fantasy/

Maybe add to the OP?

BlitzEngineer said:
I had no idea Far Cry 3's story was so fucking dumb. Holy hell man.
Click to expand...
Seriously. Total cringe.

blue_phazon said:
What are the examples she gives of good representations? Can't watch atm
Click to expand...
Never Alone, Mafia 3, Watch Dogs 2, 1979 Revolution: Black Friday
 
K

KillLaCam

Banned
I generally don't like her opinion on games but this one was 100% legit. Like can I just get a foreign person in a game who acts normal but just happens to be foreign. No weird Stereotypes or oversexualization.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
About the video, can't find much to disagree, except I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if Alyx or Nilin's heritage isn't explicitly explored. It doesn't have to be. Though, to be fair she's not saying it's necessarily a bad thing either, but she seems to lament it somewhat. I can agree that it sucks that whenever WoC are portrayed in games, their background/heritage is almost always either stereotyped to hell, or simply erased. In an ideal world there wouldn't be a problem with Nilin and her mother just happening to be black.
Oh yeah, she also calls Nilin sexualized, which isn't entirely false due to the camera lingering on her butt for a bit, but it's very mild, it's about the only time it happens IIRC and Nilin herself isn't dressed in a ridiculous outfit or anything like that. The butt shot was unnecessary though.

She's totally on point for the rest. Sheva's costume is grotesque and pathetic, and Far Cry 3, fucking lol, who wrote this shit? [Edit: hahahaha apparently FC3 got a BAFTA nomination for its story... what a joke]
 
Tizoc

Tizoc

Member
tHE DARK And light skin thing is actually apparent in various Japanese media.
It is the reason Raoh from Hokuto no Ken, for example, has darker skin tone.

In Mahou Shoujou series, darker clothes more often than not are an indication that the magic girl is evil.
 
J

JCG

Member
Not a bad video, but I was expecting something like Aurion: Legacy of the Kori-Odan to come up in this discussion. On the surface, the game does share a few elements with common "exotic fantasy" portrayals yet remains a lot more respectful of African culture and that's probably because it was made by people from that part of the world.
 
T

TreIII

Member
Tizoc said:
tHE DARK And light skin thing is actually apparent in various Japanese media.
It is the reason Raoh from Hokuto no Ken, for example, has darker skin tone.
Click to expand...

Which, funny enough, was actually an invention of the 80's anime production team. As intended in the original manga, Raoh was supposed to be a large white guy with blonde/platinum blonde hair.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Eh, the Zelda example is a bridge too far (forget skin tone, because "black clothing=evil" is pretty much a bedrock of villain iconography across most of the world), and the random throw-in of the Witcher succubus laughable without going into it deeper, but most of the examples seem fair.

Morrigan Stark said:
About the video, can't find much to disagree, except I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if Alyx or Nilin's heritage isn't explicitly explored. It doesn't have to be. Though, to be fair she's not saying it's necessarily a bad thing either, but she seems to lament it somewhat. I can agree that it sucks that whenever WoC are portrayed in games, their background/heritage is almost always either stereotyped to hell, or simply erased. In an ideal world there wouldn't be a problem with Nilin and her mother just happening to be black.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it seems like a contradictory argument. Especially in the exceptional settings games take place in, I doubt someone's ethnic or racial background is going to be essential to that character or the story the game is telling. That's not to say you can't construct such a narrative and have it work well, but where in Half-Life 2 was there ever going to be room for Alyx to expound on that stuff? Alyx is a good character*, and ultimately that's what matters; otherwise you're playing trope gambit and that way lies lunacy.

*Really the only flaw with her is the one that affects all NPCs in Half-Life—Gordon Freeman is a mute god everyone venerates. It was weird at the time and has only gotten weirder as games have embraced creating fleshed-out protagonists more and more versus blank slates.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
I searched "tropes" before posting my thread of this and it didn't appear so I accidentally double posted it. Whoops!

Interesting video, and while I do feel that Shiva and Citra are discussed a little too much due to being such perfect examples, they still work well to support this argument.

It would be interesting to see more subtle examples of the trope, to point out how easily it can slip by.
 
B

Bladenic

Member
Sheva's Clubbin' outfit wasn't exactly great either. Poor Sheva. I did dress her in the tribal outfit though, not gonna lie.

Sad that are so few positive examples to give.
 
S

Skiptastic

Member
Good episode. It is pretty terrible how these stereotypes are promulgated even today. Good to see some improvement in games like Watch Dogs 2 and Mafia III.
 
T

TreIII

Member
Fuchsdh said:
Eh, the Zelda example is a bridge too far (forget skin tone, because "black clothing=evil" is pretty much a bedrock of villain iconography across most of the world)
Click to expand...

Is it?

I mean, it's not like "darker skin = sinister/evil" is a new thing. You need not look any further than Ryu getting a noticeable tan when the "Evil/Killing Intent" awakens in him to see yet another example of this.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
Fuchsdh said:
Eh, the Zelda example is a bridge too far (forget skin tone, because "black clothing=evil" is pretty much a bedrock of villain iconography across most of the world), and the random throw-in of the Witcher succubus laughable without going into it deeper, but most of the examples seem fair.
Click to expand...
Eh... in ocarina of time ganondorf is introduced as a man with "evil eyes" who "hails from the desert" and the "dark clouds" in Zelda's dream "symbolise" him.

It's not overt but it is playing on the more subtle racial tropes. Kind of like LotR's orcs and mercenaries being either black or from the desert, while the ruling class are from more Western climates.
 
B

Bladenic

Member
I always thought Ganodorf and the Gerudo were supposed to be gypsies/Romani people. But the darker skin = evil still fits.
 
Tizoc

Tizoc

Member
TreIII said:
Is it?

I mean, it's not like "darker skin = sinister/evil" is a new thing. You need not look any further than Ryu getting a noticeable tan when the "Evil/Killing Intent" awakens in him to see yet another example of this.
Click to expand...
Hell Gouki has a darker skin tone in various artwork.

Ganon's dark skin is akin to Raoh having dark skin too.

Here is another example for you, In King of Fighters 2002, Kyo has regular white skin tone. The skin tone of his clone, Kusanagi? It's darker.
 
F

FrontalMonk

Banned
Morrigan Stark said:
About the video, can't find much to disagree, except I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if Alyx or Nilin's heritage isn't explicitly explored. It doesn't have to be. Though, to be fair she's not saying it's necessarily a bad thing either, but she seems to lament it somewhat. I can agree that it sucks that whenever WoC are portrayed in games, their background/heritage is almost always either stereotyped to hell, or simply erased. In an ideal world there wouldn't be a problem with Nilin and her mother just happening to be black.
Oh yeah, she also calls Nilin sexualized, which isn't entirely false due to the camera lingering on her butt for a bit, but it's very mild, it's about the only time it happens IIRC and Nilin herself isn't dressed in a ridiculous outfit or anything like that. The butt shot was unnecessary though.

She's totally on point for the rest. Sheva's costume is grotesque and pathetic, and Far Cry 3, fucking lol, who wrote this shit? [Edit: hahahaha apparently FC3 got a BAFTA nomination for its story... what a joke]
Click to expand...

Yeah, I took it as a lamentation also, like "I wanted to find some examples of female PoC who are well written and have their cultures explored, but I didn't find much."
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
Yay at Never Alone and 1979 Revolution getting some recognition. Bibi in 1979 Revolution is a pretty cool character.

1979revolution_bibi_women_by_digi_matrix-daxe2zf.jpg
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Garrett Hawke said:
Eh... in ocarina of time ganondorf is introduced as a man with "evil eyes" who "hails from the desert" and the "dark clouds" in Zelda's dream "symbolise" him.

It's not overt but it is playing on the more subtle racial tropes. Kind of like LotR's orcs and mercenaries being either black or from the desert, while the ruling class are from more Western climates.
Click to expand...

But then we're talking about something different than exotic and/or hyper-sexualized women, though. Then again that's an issue with a lot of her ancillary examples; if men and women are being sexualized than the sexualization of a darker-skinned person isn't intrinsically relying on racist tropes (like the Witcher 3—I could and was thinking about starting a topic on its depiction of women, but singling out a succubus as an example of damaging racial stereotypes given the other succubi in that game and the sexualization of every single female character seems plain wrong in its angle of attack). Like a lot of her videos, you can't also just blanket apply American-centric issues and graft them onto Japanese games; I'm certainly not going to argue Japanese is somehow "better" at race relations (they've got their own separate historical demons to fight) but it's not as broadly applicable as the brush Feminist Frequency sometimes tries to paint with.

Messofanego said:
Yay at Never Alone and 1979 Revolution getting some recognition. Bibi in 1979 Revolution is a pretty cool character.

1979revolution_bibi_women_by_digi_matrix-daxe2zf.jpg
Click to expand...

The true infidel is late 70s fashion.
 
A

Auctopus

Member
Probably her best video. Despite this subject being easy pickings, she's a lot fairer on the games and the context behind each costume/character/unlockable etc. and it strengthens her argument. Before, I felt her examples were too circumstantial and a little deceptive.

Really good job.
 
I

Inferno313

Banned
I just went back to Hyrule Warriors as part of my goal to finish up a few WiiU games before the Switch hits. My fiancé and I were playing in co-op, and yeah we had to roll our eyes hard at Cia's design.
 
R

Relaxed Muscle

Member
Fuchsdh said:
But then we're talking about something different than exotic and/or hyper-sexualized women, though. Then again that's an issue with a lot of her ancillary examples; if men and women are being sexualized than the sexualization of a darker-skinned person isn't intrinsically relying on racist tropes (like the Witcher 3—I could and was thinking about starting a topic on its depiction of women, but singling out a succubus as an example of damaging racial stereotypes given the other succubi in that game and the sexualization of every single female character seems plain wrong in its angle of attack). Like a lot of her videos, you can't also just blanket apply American-centric issues and graft them onto Japanese games; I'm certainly not going to argue Japanese is somehow "better" at race relations (they've got their own separate historical demons to fight) but it's not as broadly applicable as the brush Feminist Frequency sometimes tries to paint with.
Click to expand...


The video extends the critique to over sexualization of exotic females to how games treats exotic cultures or non-white cultures with classy racist stereotypes. Because Ganon, and Gerudo, are depicted with similar stereotypes as real cultures in the real world. The fact they are japanese, dosn't excuse them from these problems, specially when we are talking about games aimed to a worldwide audience.

Not sure is the comment about Alyx is fair, in the half life series, no character gets any background at all.
 
W

Weltall Zero

Member
Fuchsdh said:
Eh, the Zelda example is a bridge too far (forget skin tone, because "black clothing=evil" is pretty much a bedrock of villain iconography across most of the world)
Click to expand...

Forget skin tone? Isn't it the entire point of the video? :D
Cia is a ridiculously sexualized character design, which is not something I expected to say of a Zelda character. This is sexist per se, but bundling evil, sexualized and black together frankly makes it pretty embarrassing. She even has a "non-evil" costume that is more modest... and makes her skin light. :p
 
P

Paganmoon

Member
Morrigan Stark said:
About the video, can't find much to disagree, except I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if Alyx or Nilin's heritage isn't explicitly explored. It doesn't have to be. Though, to be fair she's not saying it's necessarily a bad thing either, but she seems to lament it somewhat. I can agree that it sucks that whenever WoC are portrayed in games, their background/heritage is almost always either stereotyped to hell, or simply erased. In an ideal world there wouldn't be a problem with Nilin and her mother just happening to be black.
Oh yeah, she also calls Nilin sexualized, which isn't entirely false due to the camera lingering on her butt for a bit, but it's very mild, it's about the only time it happens IIRC and Nilin herself isn't dressed in a ridiculous outfit or anything like that. The butt shot was unnecessary though.

She's totally on point for the rest. Sheva's costume is grotesque and pathetic, and Far Cry 3, fucking lol, who wrote this shit? [Edit: hahahaha apparently FC3 got a BAFTA nomination for its story... what a joke]
Click to expand...

I interpreted the Nilin part like "she's sexualized, but at least it doesn't fetishize her heritage". Maybe I misinterpreted it, but I don't think she meant it was bad that her heritage wasn't mentioned, more like a plus in a sea of minus.
Equal opportunity sexualization, sort of? one step forward two steps back, sort of thing?
 
adamsapple

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I understand the point of the video (and series in general) however showing Sheva's outfit and not the ridiculously absurd Chris outfits from Resident Evil 5 is missing half the point.

Also, yes, as many have said, Far Cry 3 has a very shitty story.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Fuchsdh said:
Eh, the Zelda example is a bridge too far (forget skin tone, because "black clothing=evil" is pretty much a bedrock of villain iconography across most of the world)
Click to expand...
? This is a nonsense argument. "Forget skin tone, which is the actual problem, let's talk about dark clothing, which isn't relevant"?

The dark clothing stereotype is a different one, that doesn't have harmful racial connotations.

GameCenterXDS said:
Why does she approve of the 2013 tomb raider? That game was ridiculous
Click to expand...
Huh? Where?

Weltall Zero said:
Forget skin tone? Isn't it the entire point of the video? :D
Cia is a ridiculously sexualized character design, which is not something I expected to say of a Zelda character. This is sexist per se, but bundling evil, sexualized and black together frankly makes it pretty embarrassing. She even has a "non-evil" costume that is more modest... and makes her skin light. :p
Click to expand...
Ick. I have played Hyrule Warriors but didn't know about this alt costume (never used Cia anyway, #teamImpa and Ganondorf forever). That's tonedeaf and embarrassing as hell. :|

Paganmoon said:
I interpreted the Nilin part like "she's sexualized, but at least it doesn't fetishize her heritage". Maybe I misinterpreted it, but I don't think she meant it was bad that her heritage wasn't mentioned, more like a plus in a sea of minus.
Equal opportunity sexualization, sort of? one step forward two steps back, sort of thing?
Click to expand...
Yeah, that could be it too.
 
P

Platy

Member
Yeah Hyrule Warriors made me eye roll to the back of my head when they showed that cia is the evil part ...it was cringeworth with the design alone but evil part of one goddess makes it 70x worst
 
R

Relaxed Muscle

Member
chandoog said:
I understand the point of the video (and series in general) but showing Sheva's outfit and not the ridiculously absurd Chris outfits from Resident Evil 5 is missing half the point.

Also, yes, as many have said, Far Cry 3 has a very shitty story.
Click to expand...

Regarding the theme of the video, dosn't make much sense to bring RE5 Chris costumes. Also is the base game I think they were pretty normal? The most ridiculous ones came later.
 
BiGBoSSMk23

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Good vid.

FC3 is fucking gross.

TBH, any character wearing skimpy/tight tribal garments in modern settings as part of their characterization is plain dumb.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

ARTICLE: E3 Spawns Backlash After Tweeting Insulting List Of Games Women Play
News Drama Cringe 2
70
6K
Evil Calvin replied
The Queen is back. Polygon: The Anita Sarkeesian Story, 10 Years of Feminist Frequency
Clickbait 2 3 4 5
207
23K
Animagic replied
Not Your Exotic Fantasy - Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
0
2K
Garrett Hawke replied
Feminist Frequency and the Truth About Video Games
2 3 4
160
13K
royox replied
DWeek: Are video games inherently sexist? Devs discuss. Also Spyro is sexist #SheilaGate.
2
90
7K
alabtrosMyster replied
Top Bottom