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[kaizenmx]

So you would reward someone with your money so he can continue to make these statements? You would permit this man to have relevance?

No, but I'm not going to be butthurt over his comments and be like "argh not gonna buy his game because that would prove his point, derpy derp".

I buy good games, whether it's made by an asshole or douchebag. The team who actually made this game are nothing like the guy in charge, and their proof of blood and sweat that went to this game clearly proves it. I give respect to the actual team that created the game, even though a douchebag's name is attached to it.

If you are not gonna buy the game, then don't buy. Let rest of enjoy the game.

 

[RurouniZel]

You wouldn't buy it because you don't want to monetarily support someone who you think is an idiot. The part where you seem to agree with his patently false claim makes me think you are similarly ignorant.

Art, by it's very nature, is a reflection of the artist who created it. If I don't like the artist, why would I pay money for a reflection of them?

 

[Misguided]

Also, to all of you who apparently hate the indie scene, have you ever had the thought that of all the people that work on major retail titles, it's likely that A LOT of them are total assholes?

 

[hteng]

he would be banned if he said that on gaf.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Nice job generalizing the entire indie developers based on one douchebag.

Sigh... talk about ignorance...

Whats the problem? You seem to be a fan of generalizations your self.

Implying indie scene is irrelevant to gaming industry.

As much as he is a douche to japanese game devs and jrpg fanboys and weeaboos, he is right on the money.

Because if people like Japanese games, they are weaboos and fanboys.

talk about ignorance...

he would be banned if he said that on gaf.

Doubtful. The anti-Japanese thing has been on the up for a while.

They're probably treating it the same way they treat pretty much anything related to western games.

Ignoring it.

Western games in Japan seem to be on the uptake more the anything.

 

[Coxy]

Jesus, the stupidity.

Phil Fish =/= Fez

Fez = pretty interesting game that Phil Fish, the apparent douche in question, has failed to get across to the public in a way that makes them understand what it really is.

Fez will probably be a very good game that will sell well.

Phil Fish is a guy that lives in a house alone.

Just because you don't like Phil Fish (which I get) doesn't devalue the work he put into Fez, and it doesn't take away the fact that Fez could be really good. Why you would not buy it because of a statement he made about Japanese developers which quite frankly is becoming truer and truer as as life goes on is preposterous.

there are a lot of very good games, I cant buy them all, this is reason enough not to buy this one, this is not an underpopulated genre

 

[Terrell]

I get why people think the claim was stupid. I get why it was mean-spirited. But not playing Fez for that reason alone is silly to me. Plenty of people have read Mein Kampf by Adolt Hitler even though he, you know, actually did something worth complaining about. And honestly, if you all think Phil Fish is so inconsequential, why are you all still talking about him?

Reading Mein Kampf doesn't put money into funding and support for the Nazis, though, so it's not exactly a proper comparison.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Just throwing this out there because it seems like a lot of people don't know this:

Fez was made by 2 people, music by 1 more. So, team of 3, tops. The vision, design and art is all Phil.

 

[IrishNinja]

No, but I'm not going to be butthurt over his comments and be like "argh not gonna buy his game because that would prove his point, derpy derp".

pretty dumb comment, bro - no one's saying it'd prove his point, but that it would reward out-and-out douchiness like shitting on another indie guys, much less an entire region, in a public manner like that.

If you are not gonna buy the game, then don't buy. Let rest of enjoy the game.

speaking of derp: do the rest of us standing on principle stop you from enjoying this guy's still non-existent game?

Also, to all of you who apparently hate the indie scene, have you ever had the thought that of all the people that work on major retail titles, it's likely that A LOT of them are total assholes?

i don't doubt that one bit; first one of them to publicly shit on someone like that, i'll do the same. it's pretty across the board, regardless of scene you don't do things like that.

Just throwing this out there because it seems like a lot of people don't know this:

Fez was made by 2 people, music by 1 more. So, team of 3, tops. The vision, design and art is all Phil.

thank you. D-bag DF needs to take note here.

 

[kaizenmx]

Whats the problem. You seem to be a fan of generalizations your self.



Because if people like Japanese games, they are weaboos and fanboys.

talk about ignorance...

Doubtful. The anti-Japanese thing has been on the up for a while.

The ignorance is strong with this one.

Oh, and don't put words into my mouth.

 

[kaizenmx]

speaking of derp: do the rest of us standing on principle stop you from enjoying this guy's still non-existent game?

The game looks fantastic and fun to play. I'm expecting it to be fun game.

Problem?

 

[Misguided]

pretty dumb comment, bro - no one's saying it'd prove his point, but that it would reward out-and-out douchiness like shitting on another indie guys, much less an entire region, in a public manner like that.



speaking of derp: do the rest of us standing on principle stop you from enjoying this guy's still non-existent game?

It's going to be out in a couple months, it's going through certification at Microsoft now. So that whole "lol he haz n0 gaem" argument is pretty much invalid. And all of you who assert your opinions on video games every day on here, how many of you have ever finished a game?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

he would be banned if he said that on gaf.

You mean like saying to a Japanese dev's face (or responding to his post) the same? Or do you mean someone just saying "All Japanese games suck"? If it's the latter, you just have to read this thread to know that isn't really true.

 

[IrishNinja]

The game looks fantastic and fun to play. I'm expecting it to be fun game.

Problem?

it looks derivative, and i'm okay with passing on it. that shouldn't affect your expectations or experience in any way.

people have opinions which differ from yours, based on varying levels of thought. problem?

It's going to be out in a couple months, it's going through certification at Microsoft now. So that whole "lol he haz n0 gaem" argument is pretty much invalid. And all of you who assert your opinions on video games every day on here, how many of you have ever finished a game?

as has been said: he's still speaking as if he's created something that currently exists, i think it's worth throwing out there. then again, even if it'd been out and was well received, i'd not give this a pass, so perhaps it's moot.

and again, you're fundamentally missing an important point: a largely anonymous message board =/= GDC and having a fan of your non-product ask for advice/opinion and taking a shit on him in front of a large crowd of people. how is that comparable?
your line of logic isn't great either - i don't have to hold public office to scrutinize politicians.

 

[wolfmat]

I get why people think the claim was stupid.

This is less about the claim; it's more about how he treats people. It's a despicable way of trying to get a point across. And it's ignorant.

But not playing Fez for that reason alone is silly to me.

Why?

Plenty of people have read Mein Kampf by Adolt Hitler even though he, you know, actually did something worth complaining about.

"Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler wasn't a nice piece of entertainment, it foreshadows Hitler's actions. And it wasn't regarded as a good book by anyone. It was extremely flawed, also from a technical perspective. It was a shitty book. Plus, Phil Fish is not Adolf Hitler. Your argument is nonsense.

And honestly, if you all think Phil Fish is so inconsequential, why are you all still talking about him?

He made a horrible statement at a GDC conference. His current trailer is barfed at us by all trailer sites RIGHT NOW. He obviously is on stage right now. We like to point out horrible people to make them an example, and to profess our disdain for reasons that are beyond the scope of this conversation.

Edit:

Also, to all of you who apparently hate the indie scene, have you ever had the thought that of all the people that work on major retail titles, it's likely that A LOT of them are total assholes?

Well, it's a good thing they know when to shut the fuck up.

 

[Rahxephon91]

The ignorance is strong with this one.

Oh, and don't put words into my mouth.

What ignorance? Do you even know what the word means? And what words? Um.. you're the one here who decided to use the token words here pal.

 

[stupei]

Implying indie scene is irrelevant to gaming industry.

As much as he is a douche to japanese game devs and jrpg fanboys and weeaboos, he is right on the money.

Are you sure GAF is where you want to be? Don't know if you realize but a whole lot of us fanboys and weeaboos got a Japanese game named GAF's third favorite game of 2011. Must be a shitload of anime fans here!

Or it's possible that a broader spectrum of people like Japanese games than you (or Mr Fish) think.

 

[kaizenmx]

Because if people like Japanese games, they are weaboos and fanboys.

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff

Are you sure GAF is where you want to be? Don't know if you realize but a whole lot of us fanboys and weeaboos got a Japanese game named GAF's third favorite game of 2011. Must be a shitload of anime fans here!

Don't worry about me.

 

[IrishNinja]

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff

oh wow, haha...quoting this gem before you try to walk it back later.
enjoy your time on GAF! i apologize for trying to engage you like you were an actual intelligent person back there, that was my bad man.

 

[Terrell]

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff


Don't worry about me.

Considering a comment like that could get you perma-banned as a junior? Yeah, I think he might have reason to be a little worried about you.

 

[Misguided]

I'm sure we'll probably never see eye to eye on this issue, and that's okay, but I still have one gripe with what some of you are saying:

I hate it when people look at people like Jon Blow and Phil Fish who are opinionated (ok Phil Fish is just a douchebag) who happen to be indie, pigeonhole all of the hardworking indie developers who are just trying to do what they want to do without having to answer to anybody as pretentious fucks. It comes off as just as ignorant as the statement Phil made toward the Japanese developer.

 

[MuddyDonut]

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff

Beautiful.

 

[stupei]

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff.

Don't worry about me.

You've had an account since 2009 and this is the kind of discussion you decide to troll in?

Of course I'm worried. This is a cry for help if I've ever seen one.

 

[kaizenmx]

How much people are willing to bet that Fez will sell well regardless of what Fish said?

Yeah, good games sell.

You've had an account since 2009 and this is the kind of discussion you decide to troll in?

Of course I'm worried. This is a cry for help if I've ever seen one.

Oh look, people once again using the word "troll" without fully knowing what it means.

 

[Rahxephon91]

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff

LoL What?

Did you just call me ignorant because I don't want to make a mass generalization that people who like Japanese games are jrpg fanboys and/or weeaboos that you claim 99% of them are and then you want to complain about people making generalizations of indier whatever?

You're right I am ignorant to that fact because its fucking insane.

 

[wolfmat]

I'm sure we'll probably never see eye to eye on this issue, and that's okay

I don't think it's okay, but I guess I can't change you. May you live in interesting times.

I hate it when people look at people like Jon Blow and Phil Fish who are opinionated (ok Phil Fish is just a douchebag) who happen to be indie, pigeonhole all of the hardworking indie developers who are just trying to do what they want to do without having to answer to anybody as pretentious fucks. It comes off as just as ignorant as the statement Phil made toward the Japanese developer.

Who's really doing that?

First of all, don't throw Jonathan Blow and Phil Fish into the same bag. They're worlds apart, even if they're making the same argument to a degree in this instance. Jonathan Blow actually knows his shit, for one. Just check his social games talk out or something. He's putting a lot of thought into what he says, and he's basically right a lot of the time. Not so sure about Phil Fish!

 

[kaizenmx]

LoL What?

Did you just call me ignorant because I don't want to make a mass generalization that people who like Japanese games are jrpg fanboys and/or weeaboos that you claim 99% of them are and then you want to complain about people making generalizations of indier whatever?

You're right I am ignorant to that fact because its fucking insane.

I'm not generalizing. Generalizing means to render indefinite or unspecific without factual basis.

And I love how you people are actually trying to drive this entire thread off topic using my quote.

Lovely.

 

[Arsenic]

I don't see a problem with his opinion. It is an opinion. And in MY opinion, I do think there's some validity to it.

I do however see the problem with the way he delivered it. Downright disrespectful and no explanation to why he feels that way.

Some of you though generalize the indie scene in the same way he seems to be generalizing modern Japanese games, and that makes no fucking sense to me.

 

[zashga]

Shameful. I know he's a free spirit or whatever, but this is not okay. There's a big difference between speaking your mind and being a total dick.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I get why people think the claim was stupid. I get why it was mean-spirited. But not playing Fez for that reason alone is silly to me. Plenty of people have read Mein Kampf by Adolt Hitler even though he, you know, actually did something worth complaining about. And honestly, if you all think Phil Fish is so inconsequential, why are you all still talking about him?

Great comparison! Hitler must be laughing it up with all of those royalties he's making from his book.

 

[Terrell]

I'm sure we'll probably never see eye to eye on this issue, and that's okay, but I still have one gripe with what some of you are saying:

I hate it when people look at people like Jon Blow and Phil Fish who are opinionated (ok Phil Fish is just a douchebag) who happen to be indie, pigeonhole all of the hardworking indie developers who are just trying to do what they want to do without having to answer to anybody as pretentious fucks. It comes off as just as ignorant as the statement Phil made toward the Japanese developer.

It's a good thing that only 1 or 2 of us have done that. I personally won't support Phil Fish's endeavors in the future because of his crap attitude, but am still sane enough to know he doesn't reflect the entire industry or even the indie games scene.

 

[hteng]

You mean like saying to a Japanese dev's face (or responding to his post) the same? Or do you mean someone just saying "All Japanese games suck"? If it's the latter, you just have to read this thread to know that isn't really true.

i think over-generalization is worthy of a ban, it's like saying the whole country suck at making games.

edit: that said, i haven't read the whole thread, but the impression i had with the quote + the twitter + the respond seems to show how ignorant the dude is.

 

[Misguided]

First of all, don't throw Jonathan Blow and Phil Fish into the same bag. They're worlds apart, even if they're making the same argument to a degree in this instance. Jonathan Blow actually knows his shit, for one. Just check his social games talk out or something. He's putting a lot of thought into what he says, and he's basically right a lot of the time. Not so sure about Phil Fish!

A lot of people dislike Jonathan Blow, but he's never said anything downright ignorant like this.

And I just don't understand why you guys won't play the game because of this. That doesn't make it not a good game, and his comment wasn't racist, it was just rudely delivered and rather unnecessary. Honestly I wish we could hear the whole conversation to see how this went down. Sometimes context is necessary.

 

[Gravijah]

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff

man what

 

[not psycho]

As much as he is a douche to japanese game devs and jrpg fanboys and weeaboos, he is right on the money.

This stuff makes me hate indie games. The devs are nothing but a bunch of petty, whiny, narcissistic, squabbling children.

Japanese game haters make obnoxious false generalizations about Japanese games, indie game haters make obnoxious false generalizations about indie games.

But very rarely is a thread perfectly designed for both of these types of people to feel the urge to reveal themselves. Which is annoying for me, because I love both Japanese games and indie games. Just to even things out a little, let me say... I really hate Oblivion. Now Japanese games, indie games, and AAA western games are feeling the cruel sting of hate.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I'm not generalizing. Generalizing means to render indefinite or unspecific without factual basis.

And I love how you people are actually trying to drive this entire thread off topic using my quote.

Lovely.

And your facts are...

Yes you are generalizing. That's exactly what you did. How can you measure that 99% of whatever people are weeaboos and fanboys?

 

[Terrell]

A lot of people dislike Jonathan Blow, but he's never said anything downright ignorant like this.

And I just don't understand why you guys won't play the game because of this. That doesn't make it not a good game, and his comment wasn't racist, it was just rudely delivered and rather unnecessary. Honestly I wish we could hear the whole conversation to see how this went down. Sometimes context is necessary.

Gamasutra will have the entire thing on its website soon enough. They're good with the GDC coverage like that.

It's a principles issue, more than anything. It could be the greatest game in the forever, but I won't give money to someone who behaves that way, much like I wouldn't give my time to someone who behaves that way in my personal life.

 

[IrishNinja]

I hate it when people look at people like Jon Blow and Phil Fish who are opinionated (ok Phil Fish is just a douchebag) who happen to be indie, pigeonhole all of the hardworking indie developers who are just trying to do what they want to do without having to answer to anybody as pretentious fucks. It comes off as just as ignorant as the statement Phil made toward the Japanese developer.

for what it's worth, i agree with you - i think anyone who speaks vastly about an entire scene (see that suicidal junior back there) are ignorant, and while i was debating scale with you before, it doesn't really apply with people like that; dumb is just dumb.

man what

shush, weeaboo

 

[Spoo]

Oh, cool, another cookie-cutting 4-eyes droppin' bombs on other developers (with released games that require thousands time the effort and work his has) "indy dev" whose game isn't even out that is spitting on an entire nation's combined effort of game development.

Real cool. Edgy.

As a friend put it to me: Nobody has to take this shit from him. Not Japanese developers. Not American. Nobody. He's a fucking asshole and the fact that he got to get on a mic and wag his big mouth 'bout how sweet his unreleased game is in comparison to an entire nation's work... his name should be banned on a forum that actually respects the work of others who try to push the medium forward.

 

[wolfmat]

And I just don't understand why you guys won't play the game because of this. That doesn't make it not a good game, and his comment wasn't racist, it was just rudely delivered and rather unnecessary. Honestly I wish we could hear the whole conversation to see how this went down. Sometimes context is necessary.

Again, we've got thousands of games coming out this year. A lot of them awesome. A lot of them coming from Indie Heaven. We can afford not playing a game by a person we dislike, even if it's really cool.

Also, what kind of context are you expecting? That was Fish's literal opener. In front of a crowd. The Japanese guy walked out at some point. To me, that suffices in terms of context.

 

[Margalis]

That movie looks completely ridiculous, no wonder these guys have bigs heads.

The movie looks to be a bunch of clearly staged scenes in which indie devs stare meaningfully out of windows, drink alone at bars and deliver monologues about how they just want to make people feel something and games are their chosen art form.

It's really too bad that indie gaming has basically been hijacked by about a dozen people who have somehow become the ubiquitous faces of indie games.

 

[Misguided]

Again, we've got thousands of games coming out this year. A lot of them awesome. A lot of them coming from Indie Heaven. We can afford not playing a game by a person we dislike, even if it's really cool.

Also, what kind of context are you expecting? That was Fish's literal opener. In front of a crowd. The Japanese guy walked out at some point. To me, that suffices in terms of context.

I didn't know he'd walked out. I read somewhere that he thanked them for their input and stepped away from the mic. I definitely think that he should apologize both to the guy personally and I guess to the public for making this such a big deal, as he definitely has had a hand in it.

 

[wolfmat]

It's really too bad that indie gaming has basically been hijacked by about a dozen people who have somehow become the ubiquitous faces of indie games.

I completely agree, mostly because they're shallow people in reality that aren't really saying much through their games while really rocking that graphics design boat (hooray for you), but I think that's also beyond the scope of this conversation.

 

[kaizenmx]

And your facts are...

Yes you are generalizing. That's exactly what you did. How can you measure that 99% of whatever people are weeaboos and fanboys?

Why are you so obsessed with what I said? You want to talk more about it? Carry it over pm.

 

[Misguided]

That movie looks completely ridiculous, no wonder these guys have bigs heads.

The movie looks to be a bunch of clearly staged scenes in which indie devs stare meaningfully out of windows, drink alone at bars and deliver monologues about how they just want to make people feel something and games are their chosen art form.

It's really too bad that indie gaming has basically been hijacked by about a dozen people who have somehow become the ubiquitous faces of indie games.

It's difficult making games, just like any other large project can be. Emotions come into play, both in the input and when thinking about what you're really getting out of it. That's what the film is about; the indie game developer subject is just an interesting and rather unexplored context for the set.

 

[Gravijah]

shush, weeaboo

you pre-empted me. i was totally gonna call you that when you got on steam.

 

[sonikokaruto]

I'll just leave my words from the "other" opinion thread right here:


It's isn't the fact that they "suck"...it's the fact that the Japanese money to make them isn't there and isn't as widespread as it used to be in the cartridge days. If there is a shortage on games from Japan leading to a so-called paranoid shortage on quality, it's because we had our pick in the 8-16 bit days since big corporate money went into them - this is why.

In the 8-bit and 16-bit days, almost EVERY Japanese company had thier hand in the game development and publishing business, they in turn opened up office in the west, from Taxan (Japanese computer peripheral company), Toho (Japanese movie studio), JVC Musical Industries (Japanese electronics manufacturer/music label), Meldac (another Japanese music label), Seta (Japanese pachinko electronic company) to Electro Brain (an arm of Toei Animation studios), Data East (Japanese electronic component company) to Fuji TV (Japanese TV network). Every major Japanese company with money had their hand in the video game jar in hopes of making money, plus also having strict Japanese control of the end product. Well, that ended when more hardware competitors got into the scene and technology got expensive and the risks got higher.

People like Phil Fish interpret the loss of all these companies and all of this product as the END of the Japanese video game industry. That's bullshit. The money just ran out and the game designers just got older.

Why doesn't Konami make great games anymore? Because they prefer the financial safety of their fitness center and casino gambling equipment subsidiaries. They're going to put more money into that than games.

When Keiji Inafune said "Japan is finished", this was his personal anxiety and exhaustion speaking - he's NOT speaking for the entire Japanese video game industry. Inafune is a 47 year old man who is probably speaking more about himself, and his exhaustion with being at the same company (Capcom) for 23 years. The gaming press, consisting of those vetern 8-bit and 16-bit gamers in their late-twenties and early-thirties, took his quote and made a field day with it, (inserting upset that their cartridge playing days are over) and its readers did the same in a "sky is falling" manner.

Fast-forward to now, if you're a Japanese game developer and want your game published, you don't have to open up an office in the west, you just go to Aksys, Atlus, Xseed, or Sega to help you out. These companies have loyal customers and publish great games, but they're fighting for a piece of the market to get their titles in stores along with everyone else that have more "pull" with retailers, marketers, along with advertising power.

People (like Fish) are not upset that that Japanese games are bad, people are upset that their cartridge childhoods of coming home from school without a care in the world to play the enormous Japanese pick of 8-16 bit titles are sadly over. I'm missing those days too! The funding isn't there anymore, and the very creators that brought us the very innovative games from the 8-bit and 16-bit days have either retired from the game business, moved on to another line of work, or have sadly passed away. The Japanese investment bubble burst and no one wants to take risks anymore.

Japan has its game design schools just like every other country, I look forward to what their graduates have to offer. It isn't over yet, it never has been!

Quoting because no one read this

 

[Rahxephon91]

Why are you so obsessed with what I said? You want to talk more about it? Carry it over pm.

Why the hell would I pm you? How am I obsessed? Because I quoted and called out a pretty idiotic statement? Thats what happens on message boards. Either own up to it or don't.

 

[onilink88]

99% happens to be true. You are the ignorant one for not knowing this kinds of stuff

Do you honestly believe the filth you've just dripped onto your keyboard?

 

[Feep]

That movie looks completely ridiculous, no wonder these guys have bigs heads.

The movie looks to be a bunch of clearly staged scenes in which indie devs stare meaningfully out of windows, drink alone at bars and deliver monologues about how they just want to make people feel something and games are their chosen art form.

It's really too bad that indie gaming has basically been hijacked by about a dozen people who have somehow become the ubiquitous faces of indie games.

Dude I look out of windows so often