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Fighting Games Weekly | Sept 2-8 | Pushing Society Forward
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Ragingnight
Member
gootecks and ultradavid had notes on people before it was cool =/
sixteen-bit
Member
If only they started winning, they could have been the ones to make it cool!
This is what I'm talking about. You still watch if you don't pay, but I'd rather have the option to pay and get a great stream than be resigned to watching it in subpar quality.
Ragingnight
Member
wasn't gootecks winning way early on >_>
Seasoned Badger
Member
Only winners can set trends! Losers become the hipsters!
SloaneRisette
Member
Infiltration has notes on FGC-GAF.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Pretty sure there's an XsK Samurai imposter on AE PC, lol. Either that or my 1 week Ken is super godlike for some reason.
Tops I'd pay for a stream is $5 (maybe $10) and it would have to be hd, no ads, never drops out, and NO COLLUSIONS. I am not dropping money to watch dudes play casually. They can pot split all they want but play like you mean it, you're still getting your money.
Too bad that'll never happen so that idea is beat.
Too bad that'll never happen so that idea is beat.
PPV is a direction certain events should move towards. It's crazy that the people who show up in person are charged $20 when you can stay home and watch for free.
PPV won't fix the crappy internet connections that many venues still have though.
I think it was successful because Japan is more accustom to that model, they have the network infrastructure to support it, and because it was an event alot of people wanted to see. But we already have people that pay for chat/special emoticons, so why not just charge them flat out to watch?
PPV won't fix the crappy internet connections that many venues still have though.
I think it was successful because Japan is more accustom to that model, they have the network infrastructure to support it, and because it was an event alot of people wanted to see. But we already have people that pay for chat/special emoticons, so why not just charge them flat out to watch?
Ragingnight
Member
People that go get to play against people in the BYOC, meet others, watch it live, and attend panels/events.
Why? I would never watch a major outside maybe FR and EVO if they did that. League of Legends, Dota 2 and etc all do it fine without PPV. They want to include the community and not just cater to the top players.
Paying for chat/emoticons is WAY different from paying to watch something. One is optional when trying to be a part of the event, the other is not. If you aren't watching the event or there then you can't participate in anyway with the event or its sponsors. It will never fly in the US. How are you going to attract sponsors when the god damn event your trying to advertise is only available to an even smaller audience.
For all this talk for "growing the scene", the idea of a PPV for the FGC is doing the opposite. You're being inclusive. Nobody new to fighting games is going to pay money to watch a major. Putting EVO behind a paywall to view would be the most retarded thing ever. It would even further the view that the FGC is an exclusive boys club.
There are streams at other events and conventions that are bigger than EVO. How come there isn't a paywall to watch PAX? What about E3? Because the idea of limiting your audience is stupid when your trying to get new customers.
Somewhat related. The man Sol Badguy was named after would have been 67 today. RIP 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JATb7e8zgyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JATb7e8zgyo
http://jalopnik.com/the-street-fighter-for-god-silverado-is-a-hadoken-of-1258301976
SFV viral marketing?
Shouta
Member
It's a pretty different environment. Expectations and the economics of putting on something like CEO, Evo, or UFGT would be very different in Japan. Most tournies can't do cash prizes and I don't know if they can charge a venue fee to goers. Plus, the amount of folks that would prefer to watch than play probably is a bit higher in JP than it might be for the US though that's my conjecture.
It would be nice to hear from a JP Tourny organizer on this stuff.
sixteen-bit
Member
http://jalopnik.com/the-street-fighter-for-god-silverado-is-a-hadoken-of-1258301976
SFV viral marketing?
Street Fighters Megamix
Chevy Silverado vs. Daytona Hornet
Think Capcom could recoup their losses via PPV for the Capcom Cup? :^)
http://jalopnik.com/the-street-fighter-for-god-silverado-is-a-hadoken-of-1258301976
SFV viral marketing?
Street Fighter #DRIVECLUB DLC incoming
SousedLouse
Member
http://jalopnik.com/the-street-fighter-for-god-silverado-is-a-hadoken-of-1258301976
SFV viral marketing?
Ultra SFIV Car Crusher DLC Expansion Pack incoming?
Passive Assassin
Member
Is that the car from the diner stage?
Well, why I would show up to a tourney without entering:
- to play games that aren't out yet. At FR in 2012 I spent most of my time playing VF5FS and TTT2, neither game was out yet. Had a blast with both.
- to meet up folks you only know online- much like any other con. (a FG major= an anime con to me in many ways)
- to look deep into the book of poverty and state at its soul to find enlightenment. Why at NEC I spent a good bit of time playing Matrimelee until the spirit of anime became too strong and I passed out from the stench. Viscant should shill some #purity deodorant that you can spray on anime players.
http://jalopnik.com/the-street-fighter-for-god-silverado-is-a-hadoken-of-1258301976
SFV viral marketing?
So SFV Ryu will be even uglier than the SFIV one?! Damn...
toddhunter
Member
I would, I pay for lots of things I watch. I bet if it happened for a big event, pretty much everybody here would too.
Last (split) long set, Infiltration downloaded Daigo pretty hard. I just don't see what else he can do in the match-up. Hopefully something amazing.
Topanga League had something like 20k+ paid subscribers IIRC.
Dota and LoL have 10x the viewership and tons of companies willing to sponsor. If fighting games had that, then we wouldn't even need to talk about PPV.
I'm fine with the way things are now, other want to see more professional which comes at a cost, so something needs to change. This is why I think PPV is an option worth exploring. I don't think it would work because people are cheap and aren't accustom to it, but people have thrown money at the dumbest things in this community (CPU tournaments), and companies aren't going to rain cash on us all of a sudden, so I don't see a problem with PPV if someone wants to put on a professional product worth paying for.
Entering a tournament doesn't prevent you from doing any of these things.
So would I. I can't think of anyone who wouldn't pay to see Daigo vs Infiltration. Thankfully we don't have to.
Ragingnight
Member
But that is a minority and optional. I don't need to donate money to be a part of the cpu tourney.
the PPV is only a short term goal, I can't see how the scene will grow from it. Also the money that is generated from PPV would cause players want to be paid more or even paid flat out just to be streamed.
Gootecks had events already where it was PPV. IIRC he said it did not do well at all and that he had to offer a free one that had a catch (signing up or something).
call_kotaku
Member
The problem with PPV-only is that the market saturates fairly quickly since there's a limited number of people who would be willing to pay and they would only be up to pay for X number of things per year. It's sort of like the F2P or the MMO market, where people would only be willing to support one or two games, but instead of time investment it's actual monetary investment.
I don't doubt there might be PPV success in the FGC, but it's not an expandable model and would probably only support one or two events of that type. I mean, if it ends up paying for better production and content overall then why not, but I don't know if that was ever true for the MLG PPV-only events.
I don't doubt there might be PPV success in the FGC, but it's not an expandable model and would probably only support one or two events of that type. I mean, if it ends up paying for better production and content overall then why not, but I don't know if that was ever true for the MLG PPV-only events.
toddhunter
Member
Makes sense.
I think the focus needs to be on EVO as the showcase of fighting games. You don't make EVO a PPV straight away, as there is a high risk it will get "lol $8.95'd" to death. You get somebody like Canada cup to do it first and get people used to the idea. The same things were said about paying for stream chat and how nobody would ever do it. Now everybody has a "subscribe" button.
Then you make EVO $10 to watch and see how it goes. In terms of growth, the potential is simple. Even if say you had 30k people watch evo at $10 each. That is $300k (or $3.6 million in top player math) that should go into pots, player facilities, marketing, streaming equipment etc. Basically you make it as big as it can be without changing much at the levels below besides providing assistance and frameworks. If you are concerned about the current petulant mob getting paid? Don't be. With a real prize on the line they'll eventually get swamped by new participants, or they'll put in the work to stay relevant.
How does that help growth? Well more money means more players, more interest, people trying to qualify for EVO points, all those sort of things. With that interest and player boost? You get more sponsors which leads to more money and so on. As it stands, sponsors are not going to suddenly make that happen unless we get very lucky. The only way to achieve that big goal is to have the community contribute themselves. Don't believe the FGC would pay? Well I find that hard to believe given the couple of hundred k raised just to potentially get games at EVO. Heck people even donated for skullgirls.
However that all only works if organisers have their shit together and will do things like update brackets for spectators, profile players, have an updated results page, etc etc. I'm still not convinced that the right people are at the helm of EVO and could really pull something of that scale off.
Ragingnight
Member
More money =/= more players. It never has. Look at MLG, look at WCG, Look at the money tecmo threw for DOA5. Wheres the players?
Also we all know that top playes are going to be asking for a large portion if not all of that stream monster money. They'll be like "I'm entertaining them, not you". We already know its going to happen.
Then once said top players get a taste of getting money to get streamed. Welp, guess what? It wouldn't be unfathomable to think that top players will EXPECT to get paid for anytime they get streamed. I mean they are the entertainers. Gootecks even mentioned that and encourage players as well.
toddhunter
Member
Money used in the right way would.
Top players have sponsors, they need to appear on the streams. Even if it is only pennies, there is already income coming in and it is a problem that has to be dealt with today. If Chris X doesn't agree to be on the stream? He doesn't get to play at EVO and he misses out. This plays to my point about having the right leadership in place.
I also think the whole "greedy top player" thing is a bit overplayed. Chris G (to use a real example) might have bitched and moaned all the way to EVO, but he was still there and he still put in a great performance. All the other top players are always there too.
call_kotaku
Member
It's a terrible idea for EVO to do, because the PPV audience is going to be the enthusiast that wants a "premium" experience that's above the quality of what they would normally get for free, and it only hurts a "showcase" event meant to introduce people to the concept which EVO strives to be. Locking something behind a paywall doesn't necessarily make it "premium", despite what certain business people might want to make it seem. If EVO wants side content that couldn't have justifiably been free or freemium (I know stuff costs money to make, but there's been a precedent set for events and people will continue to produce free content regardless), I don't see the problem of charging a PPV for it. Something like a tipjar for the pot makes infinitely more sense, though.
In any case, there's been no evidence that these sorts of things ever helped growth for a community, especially when other factors like playerbases and big marketing pushes weren't already in place. A ton of these ideas were done in the SC2 community and looked promising for one or two events before they went away, because Blizzard doesn't have the sort of money to throw around like Riot/Valve does or the playerbases to match. Moreover, it looks increasingly likely that middlemen and independents who make money via tournament content might be depending on publishers for their revenue instead of their consumers.
And charging for streamchat and subscriptions is completely different from PPV. There's still poverty chats and whatnot, and people are paying for a premium spam and troll-free chat, which isn't necessarily them paying for something that used to be free.
Ragingnight
Member
what do you mean money used in the right way? Bigger payout to top 8, more money, more advertising, and etc have all been used. None of it has made MK9, Injustice, DOA5, KOF13, P4A, and etc bigger in the long run.
When the money stop coming in the scene was nearly the same size. Exceptions is when a game first come out obviously and maybe MK9 due to the patching scaring away a lot of people.
Lastly its not all about the top players. The normals players get hurt by this. The people trying to start a scene and host a tournament now have this expected thing of PPV if top players are invited, because "why should I go to this shitty event and get paid less, or risk not getting paid at all". Not all top players are sponsored.
The PPV model only benefits the top players, TO and streamers. The majority of the players do not getting any benefits. Its less exposure to smaller scenes, less exposure to smaller games, less exposure to the average player. Tell me what benefit would a normal joe get if an event was PPV?
Also lastly EVO and such has become more than just a tournament. They are fighting game conventions now. They have panels, they have presentations and such.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Ed Boon just tweeted this
Well, his trait was almost useless, let's see how better the range will be
I was starting to forget I owned Injustice
nope nope and more nope
toddhunter
Member
People paid for HD streams. I did as I couldn't care less about the chat. Look, there are always a million reasons not to do something, but the only thing for certain is nothing will ever work if you don't discuss it, explore it and sometimes try it.
Exactly the way it is stated. Similarly to the above, you can't just slap some money on an event and call it a day. It has to be used effectively and past failures need to be learned from. I don't believe any of this is impossible or too hard to achieve.
How is that any different to the way things are now? That really has nothing to do with "normal players" and is focused on top players making unreasonable demands. I still haven't seen any real evidence of this beyond twitter whinging.
But you would pay to see a movie or sports game for a couple of hours right?
Ragingnight
Member
Unless its a really good movie then no. Movies have been nothing but disappoints in years. I almost wanted to bust out my vita at the last movie I was at with friends.
Also the money wasn't just "slapped on". So you're saying there is a "right" way to use the money. Can you please explain if promoting, boosting pots to top 8/16, and more have been the "wrong" way.
Also no its very different now compared to before. Champ goes to local tournaments and even host his own to better his scene. Chris G hosted a few tournaments locally as well. There are ways to increase revenue in the FGC, PPV can do it for the short term, but in the long haul? Doubtful.
Depends. Maybe the (expected) PPV money goes to an event in the form of a better venue. A little AC to delay that musk benefits the normal joe just as much as a top player. Having Spooky stream instead of Bifuteki benefits not just the paying viewers, but the free viewers as well. Or a venue with better Internet, to be less inflammatory.
MiniBossBattle
Member
I honestly would watch more commercials/sponsor stuff. WNF has so many breaks, I feel like I watched more of the static promo screens on my phone/ipad when doing housework.
Why the fuck are we talking about PPV?
Not even DOTA 2 events are PPV.
Paying for stream chat and subscription is fine but don't lower the amount of potential exposure the event could have by putting it behind a paywall. The answer to everything is not put it behind a god damn pay wall.
Not even DOTA 2 events are PPV.
Paying for stream chat and subscription is fine but don't lower the amount of potential exposure the event could have by putting it behind a paywall. The answer to everything is not put it behind a god damn pay wall.
SolarPowered
Member
Let's not forget that the former also went towards breast cancer research and the latter went into improvements for something people actually play.
Also, both of these situations involve fringe scenes. I don't know if they'd be representative of what the FGC can or can't fund.
FindMyFarms
Member
Infiltration beat daigo at evo 2013
toddhunter
Member
They are not the wrong way, but they don't work in isolation. The failure of MLG and the like shows exactly why money isn't just enough. But similarly the reasons for failure were obvious and widely discussed amongst the community at the time due to conflicts with other events, scheduling, the presentation...we all know the story.
The FGC as a whole could have done a much better job, as per what the IPL was shaping up to be. Of course that never happened and we can't do it now, because the money isn't there. You need both things you see.
But as before, I still don't believe we would see success as things stand. Note that I'm saying EVO as a PPV "could and should" work with lots of trickle down benefits. I don't have confidence that a proper strategic plan would be created to fully make use of it.
Yes thinking along these lines. Not to mention investing in the games themselves.
I think they are very representative of what the FGC can fund. EVO drive, EVO HD, Skullgirls, even Yatagarasu got a lot of cash. Paying the price of a couple of energy drinks to watch and support EVO just doesn't strike me as an impossible dream.
But anyway, guess I'm alone on this one.
call_kotaku
Member
These aren't new business models, though, and I don't see why they won't fail and disappoint in the FGC just like they did when implemented by people with much greater resources.
Not that many people actually pay for HD streams, which is actually why MLG wanted desperately to do PPV. Twitch's subscriber system is still sort of silly but makes a ton more sense because it doesn't feel like a paywall, but it's a long way from being able to support much of anything especially as more people start offering subscriptions and spread out the market.
Because top players, surprisingly, are the least important part of a functional competitive community. It's true for every esport (and a lot of athletic sports), they come and go and are valued way below content producers and personalities, and have very little long-term influence on the success of the game. Anything designed to help top players is ultimately pointless, and possibly detrimental to the overall community if it's a burden on the other pieces involved. The success of the game ultimately leads to the success of the top players, and it's never worked the other way around. There's no trickle-down in esports.
You can use that justification for anything, though.
It's crazy that you guys are talking about monetization so much re: streams. Haha.
I personally think that the FGC right now will only support 2 streams in that kind of fashion to step up production. Spooky and Levelup. Everyone else is shit out of luck and does not have the scale/rep/past history to get that level of support. Unless you're saltybet and have another angle completely.
I personally think that the FGC right now will only support 2 streams in that kind of fashion to step up production. Spooky and Levelup. Everyone else is shit out of luck and does not have the scale/rep/past history to get that level of support. Unless you're saltybet and have another angle completely.
toddhunter
Member
Orpheus Telos
Member
Enzo, could you possibly add the Chaos Code OT to the OP? I know it doesn't have many posts (that's what happens when you release without online in 2013), but Tizoc did a nice job with the OT and well, it is a fighting game.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=670449
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=670449
SloaneRisette
Member
Alex Valle
@AlexValleSF4
Do people still not understand the repercussions for showcasing certain things on your streams?? If you ever want to get sponsored, think...
Anyone know what that's about in particular? He followed up with:
Alex Valle @AlexValleSF4
@heirtotheempire use of inappropriate or licensed material not authorized by owner.
But I'm just curious what person/stream he was referring to.
@AlexValleSF4
Do people still not understand the repercussions for showcasing certain things on your streams?? If you ever want to get sponsored, think...
Anyone know what that's about in particular? He followed up with:
Alex Valle @AlexValleSF4
@heirtotheempire use of inappropriate or licensed material not authorized by owner.
But I'm just curious what person/stream he was referring to.
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