• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Spoilers Final Fantasy 7 Remake Spoilers Thread!

D.Final

Member
Oct 18, 2018
2,859
1,784
590
finally beat hellhouse on hard for the last time. by the end of it, the battle was actually kind of fun, although it was a bit difficult to tell when the element was ice or lightning, and the time it gives you too cast is a bit short imho, i did enjoy it.

and i will likely never do that shit again lol.

well, maybe one day.... im honestly not sick of the game yet and im considering doing a brand new game starting from scratch after this run

i found this youtube video very detailed (except equipment load-out which he didnt go into for some odd reason)

Hellhouse is really tough as a challenge on hard mode.

When I defeated Hellhouse, in hard mode, even the enemy's Sweeper and Cutter joins the battle during the third section of the battle.
So Cloud and Aerith VS Hellhouse (some Tomberry's) and Cutter and Sweeter.

And I've summoned Bahamut for help me in the battle, with Megaflare :messenger_smiling_hearts:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Kev Kev and TTOOLL

Jon Neu

..he neus nothing
Jan 21, 2018
2,209
3,534
665
Republic of Catalonia
is this your first Final Fantasy game? they all come together and fight a giant god monster at the end.

that's how FF games usually end.
I played this back then, with the Popeye graphics and the turn based combat.

I just don’t remember anything.

But also I don’t undersand what happened at the end? They went to another dimension and then came back? Why Zack and Cloud cross with them? Is that a different timeline?Alternate dimension?

It was all so convoluted and deployed of real meaning.

The game was great, by the way. It has one big flaw: it’s too easy.

Aeris is the cutest character ever. Give the voice actress an Oscar.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Kev Kev

Hostile_18

Member
Jun 7, 2015
2,393
1,735
515
UK
The ending chapters completely mess up the story... its game of thrones all over again.

Did the real Septhroth from this time line even turn up? 😭😭
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kev Kev

Kev Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2012
1,075
1,315
775
Daytona Beach, FL
The ending chapters completely mess up the story... its game of thrones all over again.

Did the real Septhroth from this time line even turn up? 😭😭
this video helps explain alot, but it still seems unnecessary and overly complicated to me, as opposed to oh i dont know keeping the story the same like every-fucking-one wanted

i guess its kind of cool that theyve planted the seed of doubt, and are now able to be more freely creative?

but, honestly, that makes very little sense to me. bc any change they make people are still going to throw stones, so they might as well have avoided all this fate ghost/time & dimension traveling sephiroth shit, and just made the changes to the story. there was no need to go into all of this. if you wanted to change up some story elements, or kill off/not kill off characters like the original, then just fucking do it! people are going to hate it, yeah, but they still hate what you actually did, except its even more complicated now :messenger_tears_of_joy:... introducing all of this just muddys the waters before you make the fucking change anyways lol

ok rant over

for me, i dont really care that much, im loving the game and i dont care so much about the changes to the story, i just think it was unneccessary for them to do it so they could have more freedom of creativity.... i just really dont care that much, the main story is mostly intact and im happy 🤷‍♂️

at this point, best case scenario is they find a genius way to make all of this easy to understand (especially for those of us who haven't played the other games or read the novels... like myself), and the changes they do wind up making somehow help make the overall story more cohesive and have a better, more solid ending.

🤞😬🤞
 

Lethal01

Member
Jun 15, 2019
326
342
310
but, honestly, that makes very little sense to me. bc any change they make people are still going to throw stones, so they might as well have avoided all this fate ghost/time & dimension traveling sephiroth shit, and just made the changes to the story. there was no need to go into all of this. if you wanted to change up some story elements, or kill off/not kill off characters like the original, then just fucking do it! people are going to hate it, yeah, but they still hate what you actually did, except its even more complicated now :messenger_tears_of_joy:... introducing all of this just muddys the waters before you make the fucking change anyways lol

🤞😬🤞
I think you're looking at them far too much like they were just added to be meta and make a reason to change. But I think they are there to show the big change that's already happening and what the other changes will be centered around.

They are here to show sephiroth from the future being here and fucking the timeline. the changes in the games will probably be centered around him changing things that HE knows are going to happen. It's just easy to draw parallels as it's also him changes things WE know are gonna happen.
 

Kev Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2012
1,075
1,315
775
Daytona Beach, FL
I think you're looking at them far too much like they were just added to be meta and make a reason to change. But I think they are there to show the big change that's already happening and what the other changes will be centered around.

They are here to show sephiroth from the future being here and fucking the timeline. the changes in the games will probably be centered around him changing things that HE knows are going to happen. It's just easy to draw parallels as it's also him changes things WE know are gonna happen.
like i said, they should have just made the changes, not introduced a bunch of new confusing shit. they dont want aerith to die? fine, change the cut scene so that she doesnt get stabbed. want to keep biggs, jessie and wedge alive? great, then do that, and just that. there was no need to introduce fate ghosts and time traveling sephiroth.

but i already said all that so...

and ill say again, hopefully they can pull off something genius and have everything tie together nice and simple...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: stickkidsam

Arkam

Member
Jan 21, 2012
2,605
896
720
Here, Now and maybe later
Has anyone seen a developer talk where they speak to the crazy small trigger volumes used? Its irritating as hell to have to move your character around to hit teh trigger so you can pick up the loot at you feet. There has to be a reason they made them so small, otherwise fire that person.
 

Lethal01

Member
Jun 15, 2019
326
342
310
like i said, they should have just made the changes, not introduced a bunch of new confusing shit. they dont want aerith to die? fine, change the cut scene so that she doesnt get stabbed. want to keep biggs, jessie and wedge alive? great, then do that, and just that. there was no need to introduce fate ghosts and time traveling sephiroth.

but i already said all that so...

and ill say again, hopefully they can pull off something genius and have everything tie together nice and simple...
I'll say it this way, it's not about them just "making changes" it's about them making a sequel.
They didn't bring Sephiroth from the future in order to justify changes, they did it because it's a sequel.

That said I totally understand wishing it wasn't a sequel I'm just saying the moves you are mentioning weren't made in order to justify changing things.
 
Last edited:

#Phonepunk#

Gold Member
Sep 4, 2018
11,543
18,310
705
39
they should have just made the changes, not introduced a bunch of new confusing shit
what if they wanted to do something different? its silly to demand an artist do something a certain way. especially if they are revisiting a decades old work, you cannot seriously expect them to not change anything at all.

i dont know its like a band plays a reunion tour after 20 years of not seeing each other and you are mad they, like, threw in a keyboard solo when doing their greatest hits live. let them do what they are doing. i like it. there were always those cloaked dudes in the original game. it just ups the weirdness. Sephiroth does a move in the original game where he calls up a math equation and then planet by planet destroys a solar system before attacking. he was kinda always OP. the death ghosts, "what are their connection to him?" is my main question.

why are you so hung up on them? death ghosts are pretty dope imo. an original idea by the makers of FF7. why not? hey, maybe Sephiroth isn't even the villain this time. isn't that cool? i kinda like not knowing where the story will go, but having faith that they will hit all the major things people love from the original & it will look and play amazing.
 
Last edited:
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: BibleBLACKED

Kev Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2012
1,075
1,315
775
Daytona Beach, FL
what if they wanted to do something different? i dont know its like a band plays a reunion tour after 20 years of not seeing each other and you are mad they, like, threw in a keyboard solo when doing their greatest hits live.
im not mad, just dont know why they couldnt just make the change, and only the change, they didnt need fate ghosts
 
Last edited:

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
40,601
8,845
1,600
Best Coast
im not mad, just dont know why they couldnt just make the change, and only the change, they didnt need fate ghosts
Of course they could have done that, but I'm guessing they wanted to dream a little bigger and thought it would be cooler this way.

I'm digging it so far. I can't tell if it'll all work out in the end, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
 

Sign

Member
Jun 4, 2012
648
1,130
630
I don't know if this has been linked yet:


It makes some really good observations about where things might be heading and how it relates to the compilation. Unfortunately, it is only 1 of 5 right now, but still covers quite a bit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rentahamster

Malakhov

Member
Jun 6, 2004
6,948
887
1,725
im not mad, just dont know why they couldnt just make the change, and only the change, they didnt need fate ghosts
Ghosts are very well thought out imo. We know what is supposed to happen, as a player we'd also like to change some outcome (Aerith dying etc..) but they were there to make sure we follow the line of fate.

But we've defeated the arbitror of fate, now everything is up in the air. We won against destiny and fate, now let's see what we can do

This is awesome
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Psychostar

Hostile_18

Member
Jun 7, 2015
2,393
1,735
515
UK
Beat the game yay I can finally come and read this thread.

Ending was brilliant, damn I was pleasantly surprised
I just finished it yesterday and feel exactly the opposite. I didn't mind the alternative time line stuff but the last two chapters fumbled it.

The best part of the original was waking up from the jail cell and following the trail of blood and leaving Midgar in a panic. The real Septhroth didn't even turn up here, it fast forwarded the games finale to this game and the characters stopped asking relevant questions or explanations to keep it vague and confusing in an artificial way.

Why did future Septhroth carry around Janova instead of the blood trail? Why did he throw the president out and then leave only to come back and kill him? Was it even explicitly said that Septhroth would eventually try to destroy the world to the group and that he was from an alternative time line? Why do they want to change fate so much anyways when they saved the planet... to save one life?

Barrets "death" was super cheap and lessons the impact of any future deaths. How can Septhroth still be this great warrior who is so much stronger than you when you've literally gone toe to toe with him and beaten him in the first third of the game?

Meh I need to replay this last two chapters but I think the story seems incomprehensible in terms of logic and flow.
 

Malakhov

Member
Jun 6, 2004
6,948
887
1,725
I just finished it yesterday and feel exactly the opposite. I didn't mind the alternative time line stuff but the last two chapters fumbled it.

The best part of the original was waking up from the jail cell and following the trail of blood and leaving Midgar in a panic. The real Septhroth didn't even turn up here, it fast forwarded the games finale to this game and the characters stopped asking relevant questions or explanations to keep it vague and confusing in an artificial way.

Why did future Septhroth carry around Janova instead of the blood trail? Why did he throw the president out and then leave only to come back and kill him? Was it even explicitly said that Septhroth would eventually try to destroy the world to the group and that he was from an alternative time line? Why do they want to change fate so much anyways when they saved the planet... to save one life?

Barrets "death" was super cheap and lessons the impact of any future deaths. How can Septhroth still be this great warrior who is so much stronger than you when you've literally gone toe to toe with him and beaten him in the first third of the game?

Meh I need to replay this last two chapters but I think the story seems incomprehensible in terms of logic and flow.
Chapters 16 to 18 were the best chapters for me, so yeah, total opposite.

I think you misunderstood some of the plot. They arent trying to change fate to save anyone, they're going after Sephiroth because he is still alive and wants to destroy the planet, that's it... The planet hasnt been saved at all yet.

Barret's death wasnt cheap, he wasnt meant to die at that moment and the ghosts (still present at that time) made sure of it. I actually thought that moment was great, all these little moments are there to confuse us. For a few seconds I thought Barett was the one biting the dust in the remake instead of Aerith, was pretty well executed, even Aerith style.

The story of what happened so far, is very clear for me and easy to grasp. What is completely unknown and hard to grasp is what is coming.

But hey, I can get why some do not like this and it's all good. But for me, Im really happy of where this is going.
 
Last edited:
Apr 4, 2020
69
62
170
Exactly this.

In the plot there are changes that should never be made, otherwise this destroy the sense of the narrative development of the game and the characterizations of the characters.
And that's what happened with Zack and Sephiroth in this Final Fantasy VII Remake.

This Remake destroyed Zack as a character and destroyed the origins of the beginning of the story of the Final Fantasy VII original game as it was conceived.

This Remake didn't need to have such exaggerated plot changes.
(but apparently Nomura wanted at all costs to complicate and ruin a plot that already worked.....)
And this could probably lead to further bad changes such as making Aerith survive (since even the characters in the game know that she dies) or even making Sephiroth good.
These changes make this game something totally different from a Remake, but more like an alternative sequel/spinoff.
And it is a pity.

Nomaro basically made himself into the JJ Abrams of FF7.

At least Abrams has the excuse that he had to make something new, Nomura just raped the story for no reason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: D.Final
Apr 4, 2020
69
62
170
Chapters 16 to 18 were the best chapters for me, so yeah, total opposite.

I think you misunderstood some of the plot. They arent trying to change fate to save anyone, they're going after Sephiroth because he is still alive and wants to destroy the planet, that's it... The planet hasnt been saved at all yet.

Barret's death wasnt cheap, he wasnt meant to die at that moment and the ghosts (still present at that time) made sure of it. I actually thought that moment was great, all these little moments are there to confuse us. For a few seconds I thought Barett was the one biting the dust in the remake instead of Aerith, was pretty well executed, even Aerith style.

The story of what happened so far, is very clear for me and easy to grasp. What is completely unknown and hard to grasp is what is coming.

But hey, I can get why some do not like this and it's all good. But for me, Im really happy of where this is going.
Yeah easy to grasp. There are these whisps that protect the OG story/faith, but not exactly because quite a bit is different. You enter this portal to god knows where, to fight a boss you know nothing about, then you fight a sephiroth who supposedly is from the future, but nothing tells you this, then you beat the whispers and boom, you're now free from their grasp, which apparantly also affects another timeline (or who knows how many timelines) with good boy zack being alive.

How can that not be clear?!
 

Malakhov

Member
Jun 6, 2004
6,948
887
1,725
Yeah easy to grasp. There are these whisps that protect the OG story/faith, but not exactly because quite a bit is different. You enter this portal to god knows where, to fight a boss you know nothing about, then you fight a sephiroth who supposedly is from the future, but nothing tells you this, then you beat the whispers and boom, you're now free from their grasp, which apparantly also affects another timeline (or who knows how many timelines) with good boy zack being alive.

How can that not be clear?!
The whispers are there to protect the timeline. (Theyre actually rabid ff7 purists)
We enter the portal after being invited by sephiroth to challenge destiny, and since the planet is doomed if we dont, we go in.
The boss we fight is the arbitor of fate, you know, since weve been invited to challenge destiny.
Sephiroth might or might not be from the future, that we dont know so far, because this is part 1. He could be the sephiroth from the old timeline, current timeline or future timeline.

Exactly, weve defeated the arbitor of fate so now many timelines exists since they arent there to prevent things from happening now. Think of it as in avengers endgame, makes total sense.
 

Shouta

Member
Jun 6, 2004
32,781
602
1,725
im not mad, just dont know why they couldnt just make the change, and only the change, they didnt need fate ghosts
The whispers actually are pretty key to what they're trying to do with Remake, IMO. If they just made changes it would be a retelling of the story and the discussion would be that Remake does things so much better or worse. However, the way they're doing it now is more about how and why things are changing making the two titles companions to each other. I'm playing OG FF7 and now and I looked at few things a little differently since I have the lens of Remake now and it's pretty interesting.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
40,601
8,845
1,600
Best Coast
and since the planet is doomed if we dont, we go in.
I think that humanity is the thing that is doomed, not the planet. As we see in the ending to FF7, all the humans are dead, and Midgar is in ruins. Of course, that doesn't happen immediately, because Advent Children, but eventually, it does, in 500 years time.

In Remake, Red 13 remarks that after he sees a premonition of that future, he refers to it as the bad future, I think?

I assume that Sephiroth's motive in changing destiny is that he wants to win this time, and Aerith's motive in changing destiny is that she wants to win but in a way that doesn't have humanity going extinct in 500 years.
 

Paracelsus

Member
Jun 24, 2007
9,638
1,491
1,230
im not mad, just dont know why they couldnt just make the change, and only the change, they didnt need fate ghosts
How else would you do it? The ghosts are not the issue at all, because from a narrative standpoint there's no way you can make the change logically.
The time travel time loop alternate dimension direct sequel situation is a full blown fanservice retcon that makes no sense. They know it better than the players, and that's why they went all-in with the ghosts, they're betting on people who want their favorite characters to live to do the excusing. Using "lifestream" to explain it would be dumber than "nanomachines".
It's like making sense out of the Terminator timeline, except at least Terminator did begin with time travel.
 
Last edited:

Malakhov

Member
Jun 6, 2004
6,948
887
1,725
I think that humanity is the thing that is doomed, not the planet. As we see in the ending to FF7, all the humans are dead, and Midgar is in ruins. Of course, that doesn't happen immediately, because Advent Children, but eventually, it does, in 500 years time.

In Remake, Red 13 remarks that after he sees a premonition of that future, he refers to it as the bad future, I think?

I assume that Sephiroth's motive in changing destiny is that he wants to win this time, and Aerith's motive in changing destiny is that she wants to win but in a way that doesn't have humanity going extinct in 500 years.
Yeah, I used saving the planet because this is what is said in the ending. Barett mentions that Sephiroth wants to destroy the planet, and anyone that is an ennemy of the planet is the ennemy of Avalanche.

But I agree with your post as well.
 

Lethal01

Member
Jun 15, 2019
326
342
310
Think I already mentioned that ff7 remake files are now ripped and out in the open. Nobody seems to have ripped the maps yet so I'm doing it in my spare time.
This is the very first skybox I ripped in Blender.



Do you guys remember what this building under the plate is?
 

Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
37,508
7,284
1,540
Just finished. Huh, what a weird ending. I kind of like it as an alternate take on FFVII and it really opens up where it could go next story-wise. It feels like they did it this way just in case they never get around to making any sequels.

I think that humanity is the thing that is doomed, not the planet. As we see in the ending to FF7, all the humans are dead, and Midgar is in ruins. Of course, that doesn't happen immediately, because Advent Children, but eventually, it does, in 500 years time.

In Remake, Red 13 remarks that after he sees a premonition of that future, he refers to it as the bad future, I think?

I assume that Sephiroth's motive in changing destiny is that he wants to win this time, and Aerith's motive in changing destiny is that she wants to win but in a way that doesn't have humanity going extinct in 500 years.
In Japanese at least, Red XIII says, "that's the future we're trying to throw away." in regards to his flashback. Just finished it and that line stuck out to me in particular.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rentahamster

Malakhov

Member
Jun 6, 2004
6,948
887
1,725
In Japanese at least, Red XIII says, "that's the future we're trying to throw away." in regards to his flashback. Just finished it and that line stuck out to me in particular.
In English if I recall correctly he says that's the future if we fail here today
 
Last edited:
Apr 4, 2020
69
62
170
The whispers actually are pretty key to what they're trying to do with Remake, IMO. If they just made changes it would be a retelling of the story and the discussion would be that Remake does things so much better or worse. However, the way they're doing it now is more about how and why things are changing making the two titles companions to each other. I'm playing OG FF7 and now and I looked at few things a little differently since I have the lens of Remake now and it's pretty interesting.
Well that's the whole problem, they shouldn't have mad major changes to the core storyline. Unless they were very confident that they could make it better.
 
Apr 4, 2020
69
62
170
The whispers are there to protect the timeline. (Theyre actually rabid ff7 purists)
We enter the portal after being invited by sephiroth to challenge destiny, and since the planet is doomed if we dont, we go in.
The boss we fight is the arbitor of fate, you know, since weve been invited to challenge destiny.
Sephiroth might or might not be from the future, that we dont know so far, because this is part 1. He could be the sephiroth from the old timeline, current timeline or future timeline.

Exactly, weve defeated the arbitor of fate so now many timelines exists since they arent there to prevent things from happening now. Think of it as in avengers endgame, makes total sense.
The whisps are not rabid fans, if they were we would have the epic scene of following dead body's in the shinra building to find president shinra with a masamune in his back.

The arbitor of faith had not been referenced, he just showed up at random, and was pretty weak for something that important. Then now with the timelines, I guess there are an infinite number of timelines? It will just weaken the impact of anything that happens.
 

Kev Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2012
1,075
1,315
775
Daytona Beach, FL
How else would you do it? The ghosts are not the issue at all, because from a narrative standpoint there's no way you can make the change logically.
The time travel time loop alternate dimension direct sequel situation is a full blown fanservice retcon that makes no sense. They know it better than the players, and that's why they went all-in with the ghosts, they're betting on people who want their favorite characters to live to do the excusing. Using "lifestream" to explain it would be dumber than "nanomachines".
It's like making sense out of the Terminator timeline, except at least Terminator did begin with time travel.
im not sure what youre trying to say here, but i just think its all too complicated. if they wanted to change the story up then they should have just done that. they didnt beed to introduce a bunch if new confusing plot devices.

ive said that like 5 tines now lol kind of done discussing this

btw this started after me watching that video i quoted earlier in the thread, so go check that out and i think youll see what i mean about them making things more complex than they needed to be, which is only made worse by the idea that you may need to read the books, watch the movie and play the other games to really understand the big picture.

and i will say, one last time for the love of god, that im hoping they find a smart way to tie everything together and make it easy to digest with the next installments

jesus, people comin at me in here like i just slapped their mom lol. its ok, i still like the game, and im ok with story changes, i just think they are over complicating things unnecessarily (ok thats 6 times im done now)

in other news, im closing in on 100%ing the game 😃🥳😎 just got a few hard chapters, some enemy intel and i guess a couple weapons seeing as how i still have abilities left to learn. really had fun with this game. im looking forward to coming back to it a few months from now and doing a brand new run from scratch.
 

Malakhov

Member
Jun 6, 2004
6,948
887
1,725
The whisps are not rabid fans, if they were we would have the epic scene of following dead body's in the shinra building to find president shinra with a masamune in his back.

The arbitor of faith had not been referenced, he just showed up at random, and was pretty weak for something that important. Then now with the timelines, I guess there are an infinite number of timelines? It will just weaken the impact of anything that happens.
It was a joke, since that's how some fans have been acting.

No, the arbitror wasn't referenced, and they didn't know they'd be facing a boss either. All they knew was that they were invited to challenge destiny by Sephiroth. I was just answering your 'unknown boss'. Red immediately knew what it was, so that wasn't a hard concept to grasp either.

We don't know about the timelines so far, were only done with part 1. There wouldn't be any point on being other parts if all answers were answered wouldn't it?

My point is that what we are supposed to know so far is clear, the rest we aren't supposed to have the information so far.
 

TTOOLL

Member
Mar 22, 2012
3,507
1,789
765
Yup. It's telling that he says that because the vision he sees is of the ending of OG FF7.

It really sheds a light on the past 20 years of people speculating on the internet if the ending to FF7 was the "bad" ending.
well, Sephiroth does kill Aerith and gets the black materia to summons meteor, right? That sounds pretty bad to me. I'm no experto tho, I actually have to replay to original and finally finish it.
 
Last edited:

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
40,601
8,845
1,600
Best Coast
well, Sephiroth does kill Aerith and gets the black materia to summons meteor, right?
Yeah, that's bad, but you do eventually beat him and win.

... until you see the ending and Midgar is in ruins 500 years later.

But then Advent Children comes out and yay everyone's still alive.

... until you see that 2 years later the defeat of Sephiroth unleashed a plague on the entire world lol.

But then Cloud beats Sephiroth at the end yay!

... until you see Sephiroth's parting words about how you'll never get rid of him lol.



You "win", but life still sucks. Perhaps Aerith is trying to achieve a better outcome.
 

stickkidsam

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2018
844
789
465
How else would you do it? The ghosts are not the issue at all, because from a narrative standpoint there's no way you can make the change logically.
The time travel time loop alternate dimension direct sequel situation is a full blown fanservice retcon that makes no sense. They know it better than the players, and that's why they went all-in with the ghosts, they're betting on people who want their favorite characters to live to do the excusing. Using "lifestream" to explain it would be dumber than "nanomachines".
It's like making sense out of the Terminator timeline, except at least Terminator did begin with time travel.
I really don't see how the lifestream, the literal essence of the planet and life itself, is comparable to little man made bots that are meant to explain literally everything.

How about this: the lifestream is connected to the flow of the planet itself and thus the cycle of all it's creations, yeah? What if Holy didn't actually kill humanity and instead reset time (or at least the planet's history), bringing things back to the start of FFVII. Aerith who is a Cetra and therefore in tune with the will of the planet itself, becomes aware of the coming events through visions and slowly pieces things together. Unsure of what to do to change the future though, she is hesitant and tries to keep it to herself while she plans out a solution to Sephiroth.

As Aerith interacts with Cloud, he too will start seeing visions, with the rest of Avalanche having vague flashes of deja Vu if anything. These visions ultimately awaken Sephiroth himself however (sharing a connection through Jenova's cells similar to the reunion phenomenon) leading to him prematurely overtaking Jenova's will. This is what will set off the major changes to come in following entries to the remake. The main antagonist of the first part will be Shinra and Hojo, with Sephiroth maybe appearing at the end of the game.

Now you have a natural struggle between Aerith (who's interactions with Cloud are detrimental to her task to change the future) and Sephiroth as they race against the clock to stop the other instead of a contrived and poorly explained personification of "fate" that adds nothing of value to the story and at points even contradicts itself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dacon

Paracelsus

Member
Jun 24, 2007
9,638
1,491
1,230
That's all fine, however that sounds like you still have one timeline, though.
You now have multiple timelines: FFVII 97 (they insist it happened), Remake (because it is obviously a loop that got sidetracked), whatever happens with Zack (timeline #3). There is nothing in the lifestream or the lore of FFVII that can justify this. Maybe seeing the future, maybe causing a loop, but not alternate timelines.

You fight your way through the present to change the future.
You go back to the past to change the future which happens to be your present.
You don't fight through the present to change the past.

You fight the ghosts in the present, you are allowed a chance at saving Aerith in the future. Cool.
You fight the ghosts in the present in the main dimension, a guy dead in the past is now alive in a new dimension nobody even knew it existed at all because it totally didn't.

So, if you could somewhat buy the time loop stuff (still a hard retcon), what breaks the entire narrative is Zack coming back to life in a different dimension because you killed the ghosts.
Why would killing ghosts who are trying to affect the present and the future resurrect a dead guy in a different dimension from the past? Let's try to come up with anything

Operate on this premise: if Zack is alive, it has to do with Aerith.

"Maybe he can do something in that other timeline that makes sure Aerith doesn't die in the main timeline"
"Maybe he can literally sense his Force Link® with Aerith and Force Project® himself through dimensions to save her"
"Maybe Aerith can sacrifice herself metaphorically which leads her to leave to the other dimension where Zack is"
Or "maybe Zack is alive in the same timeline but a few weeks behind the rest of the party and will join them later" (...)
None of it makes sense, it's contrived and crazy, plus you have one Zack but two Aerithes, unless you're implying there's one Aerith larping through time, and that's insane.

I'll even address "maybe Cloud wished him for him to be back to life".
Why would Sephiroth have the power of resurrection? Why would Sephiroth have the power of alternate timeline resurrection?
Does he have that power but not the power to kill them all and wipe out the planet?
Why the hell would the solution to save Aerith be, of all things in the universe, a dead man, let alone Zack of all people?
What if Cloud wished for his mother to live instead of Zack?
"Maybe Cloud's wish was too strong and would change his timeline but he got his wish in another dimension"

So you grant him his wish in a fanservice dimension where Aerith can be saved and they all can be happy while she's killed in the main one?
Why would Aerith, assuming she has the time travel powers, allow that to happen?
Does that one Zack just stay with dimension #3 Aerith or does he come to meet the main one?


And that's barely scratching the surface. Who knows, maybe they're trolling and he's killed five minutes later anyway, but if he isn't, there's no logical explanation, people trying to extract clever hints from the original are retconning their own denial. No mcguffin mystery box can really make sense of it.
 
Last edited:

#Phonepunk#

Gold Member
Sep 4, 2018
11,543
18,310
705
39
There is nothing in the lifestream or the lore of FFVII that can justify this
people keep acting like FF7 was a simple game and there was no madness. the original came was full of crazy shit.

again, the final fight versus Sephiroth in the original game HE DESTROYS AN ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM PLANET BY PLANET. that's just one of his attacks in the final battle. it's full of crazy shit.

the team that made the original wanted to add new things when revisiting their work 20 years later. yes, they didn't make it exactly the way they made it 20 years ago. get over it.
 
Last edited:

Xerazal

Neo Member
Mar 31, 2017
11
3
170
It's a reboot masquerading as a remake in order to cash in on the popularity of the original. Mark my words, next game is going to have less in common with the original game. They already set it up with the whole "fighting fate, the unknown story continues" BS.

Thanks, Square.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paracelsus

Moogle11

Formerly 'HanBrolo'
Feb 7, 2020
584
599
505
It's a reboot masquerading as a remake in order to cash in on the popularity of the original. Mark my words, next game is going to have less in common with the original game. They already set it up with the whole "fighting fate, the unknown story continues" BS.

Thanks, Square.
Thanks from me for sure. I was lukewarm at best on the idea of a remake until I saw the new combat system and other things were being changed. I’m not big in replaying games, even with big graphical overhauls, so I like getting reboots way more than remakes personally. To each their own of course.

I do agree there will likely be more differences in the future installments. I still expect a lot of similarities though. Seems clear to me their going with the alternate time line approach where the broad things and some key events are very similar, but also with important. That gives them some freedoms to do their own thing, scratch some nostalgic itch, and Feel fresh to people who didn’t want a 1:1 remake.

That won’t satisfy the diehards who wanted a pure remake of course IMO they shoulda just do a simple remake/remaster of the original that changes nothing but updating the graphics to look like a modern AA JRPG as the port of the orignal is rough looking on HDTVs.
 

drganon

Member
Sep 20, 2019
872
1,169
390
Having just beaten it, overall I enjoyed it. I found the arsenal boss fight to be the hardest boss. Even the pain in the ass battle against sephiroth seemed easier.
 

Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
37,508
7,284
1,540
people keep acting like FF7 was a simple game and there was no madness. the original came was full of crazy shit.

again, the final fight versus Sephiroth in the original game HE DESTROYS AN ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM PLANET BY PLANET. that's just one of his attacks in the final battle. it's full of crazy shit.

the team that made the original wanted to add new things when revisiting their work 20 years later. yes, they didn't make it exactly the way they made it 20 years ago. get over it.
Last night I went and watched a couple of recap videos of FFVII and Crisis Core (which I never played), since I barely remembered much of the details of what happened after Midgard in the original (other than the locations), and man, both of those games are batshit crazy. I didn't remember FFVII's story being so full-on anime crazy. I honestly don't mind their doing a different take on how the events play out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: leo-j and Moogle11

Malakhov

Member
Jun 6, 2004
6,948
887
1,725
people keep acting like FF7 was a simple game and there was no madness. the original came was full of crazy shit.

again, the final fight versus Sephiroth in the original game HE DESTROYS AN ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM PLANET BY PLANET. that's just one of his attacks in the final battle. it's full of crazy shit.

the team that made the original wanted to add new things when revisiting their work 20 years later. yes, they didn't make it exactly the way they made it 20 years ago. get over it.
Exactly. I can see why some can be disappointed but seriously, all of the complaints about the game seems like petty whining to me. To each its own I suppose
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moogle11 and TTOOLL

stickkidsam

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2018
844
789
465
That's all fine, however that sounds like you still have one timeline, though.
You now have multiple timelines: FFVII 97 (they insist it happened), Remake (because it is obviously a loop that got sidetracked), whatever happens with Zack (timeline #3). There is nothing in the lifestream or the lore of FFVII that can justify this. Maybe seeing the future, maybe causing a loop, but not alternate timelines.

You fight your way through the present to change the future.
You go back to the past to change the future which happens to be your present.
You don't fight through the present to change the past.

You fight the ghosts in the present, you are allowed a chance at saving Aerith in the future. Cool.
You fight the ghosts in the present in the main dimension, a guy dead in the past is now alive in a new dimension nobody even knew it existed at all because it totally didn't.

So, if you could somewhat buy the time loop stuff (still a hard retcon), what breaks the entire narrative is Zack coming back to life in a different dimension because you killed the ghosts.
Why would killing ghosts who are trying to affect the present and the future resurrect a dead guy in a different dimension from the past? Let's try to come up with anything

Operate on this premise: if Zack is alive, it has to do with Aerith.

"Maybe he can do something in that other timeline that makes sure Aerith doesn't die in the main timeline"
"Maybe he can literally sense his Force Link® with Aerith and Force Project® himself through dimensions to save her"
"Maybe Aerith can sacrifice herself metaphorically which leads her to leave to the other dimension where Zack is"
Or "maybe Zack is alive in the same timeline but a few weeks behind the rest of the party and will join them later" (...)
None of it makes sense, it's contrived and crazy, plus you have one Zack but two Aerithes, unless you're implying there's one Aerith larping through time, and that's insane.

I'll even address "maybe Cloud wished him for him to be back to life".
Why would Sephiroth have the power of resurrection? Why would Sephiroth have the power of alternate timeline resurrection?
Does he have that power but not the power to kill them all and wipe out the planet?
Why the hell would the solution to save Aerith be, of all things in the universe, a dead man, let alone Zack of all people?
What if Cloud wished for his mother to live instead of Zack?
"Maybe Cloud's wish was too strong and would change his timeline but he got his wish in another dimension"

So you grant him his wish in a fanservice dimension where Aerith can be saved and they all can be happy while she's killed in the main one?
Why would Aerith, assuming she has the time travel powers, allow that to happen?
Does that one Zack just stay with dimension #3 Aerith or does he come to meet the main one?


And that's barely scratching the surface. Who knows, maybe they're trolling and he's killed five minutes later anyway, but if he isn't, there's no logical explanation, people trying to extract clever hints from the original are retconning their own denial. No mcguffin mystery box can really make sense of it.
Okay I see what you're getting at there. Yeah nah none of the shit in the Remake makes any sense in the end. My proposal was more about how I'd write the story if events were to make a lick of sense. The only way Zack coming back to life might work is if... well actually yeah I've got no clue. That's a tough one.

people keep acting like FF7 was a simple game and there was no madness. the original came was full of crazy shit.

again, the final fight versus Sephiroth in the original game HE DESTROYS AN ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM PLANET BY PLANET. that's just one of his attacks in the final battle. it's full of crazy shit.

the team that made the original wanted to add new things when revisiting their work 20 years later. yes, they didn't make it exactly the way they made it 20 years ago. get over it.
Dude I think you are really taking some stuff in original too literally.

There's crazy shit in the original game yeah, but the truly world ending stuff had zero impact on the narrative or world at hand. Cloud and the rest of the team all have comparatively grounded abilities even by the end of the game. The insane feats come from summons and magic, both of which are smaller in scale than fighting a personification of Fate in another dimension while everyone in the party takes on a space god despite having trouble fighting an evil power company just a bit earlier. That's probably the biggest issue people are having too. The party has end game level power but the journey hasn't even started yet. How is ANYTHING supposed to believably be a threat now?

You also keep mentioning Sephiroth's special attack, but if that shit was at all real, the game would just end right there. If anything it's just mind magic meant to shatter the will or whatever of those fighting him. Alternatively that fight takes place in a suspended reality within the lifestream but again, that has no impact on the actual world and would be a special circumstance.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ikutachi

Shouta

Member
Jun 6, 2004
32,781
602
1,725
Well that's the whole problem, they shouldn't have mad major changes to the core storyline. Unless they were very confident that they could make it better.
Well, they're pretty confident in that case, lol. Besides, they really haven't changed the core storyline. They're still going after Sephiroth and his goals remain the same as in OG FF7 as far as we know. It's just that there's another story layer on top of that and he has a secondary objective. It's not like that objective supersedes his original at all either. Dude wants to survive and win this time around and what for? So he can murder all of humanity by probably using Meteor again, lol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moogle11 and Zefah

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
40,601
8,845
1,600
Best Coast
Dude I think you are really taking some stuff in original too literally.
I think you might be as well. For example:
both of which are smaller in scale than fighting a personification of Fate in another dimension while everyone in the party takes on a space god despite having trouble fighting an evil power company just a bit earlier. That's probably the biggest issue people are having too. The party has end game level power but the journey hasn't even started yet. How is ANYTHING supposed to believably be a threat now?
This is a general trope of RPGs and a byproduct of levels. Later game enemies with a higher power level "on paper" are sometimes not going to match with earlier game enemies that might "look" more epic, but on paper have low stats because they have to have low stats because they show up earlier in the game. Why does a level 87 Generic Buzzard in the World of Ruin do more damage than that first huge epic boss you fought at the beginning of the game? It's just gameplay mechanics vs suspension of disbelief; don't let that ruin the experience for you.

The party has end game level power but the journey hasn't even started yet.
Not really. You still only have basic magic. You only have two limit breaks per character. Only 4 enemy skills. Not much advanced materia. There's room for growth.

If anything it's just mind magic meant to shatter the will or whatever of those fighting him. Alternatively that fight takes place in a suspended reality within the lifestream but again, that has no impact on the actual world and would be a special circumstance.
How do you plausibly suspend your disbelief and rationalize that to your brain, but have a hard time processing FF7R when it could very well be another kind of suspended reality mind magic from that chronosphere-defying inter-dimensional plot ghost portal you walked through?

Again, I have a theory that the increased visual fidelity of PS4 and current gen VS 1997 PS1 graphics is causing a lot of perception errors in people's brains. OG FF7 has crazy shit. This game has crazy shit. It's sci-fi fantasy, it's supposed to have crazy shit, and IMO FF7R doesn't necessarily go off the rails relative to what we accepted and understood in the OG FF7, generational differences in gameplay, technology, and storytelling considered.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TTOOLL and Shouta
Apr 4, 2020
69
62
170
Well, they're pretty confident in that case, lol. Besides, they really haven't changed the core storyline. They're still going after Sephiroth and his goals remain the same as in OG FF7 as far as we know. It's just that there's another story layer on top of that and he has a secondary objective. It's not like that objective supersedes his original at all either. Dude wants to survive and win this time around and what for? So he can murder all of humanity by probably using Meteor again, lol.


You fail to understand what makes the original good. The original game is good due to it´s execution, not because a group follows Sephiroth around. Execution includes the chilling scenes in the Shinra building, the buildup towards and the powerful death of Aerith, the slow unveiling of Sephiroth as a character. It´s not like they ruined all of it, but a lot more than they needed to.
 

Shouta

Member
Jun 6, 2004
32,781
602
1,725
You fail to understand what makes the original good. The original game is good due to it´s execution, not because a group follows Sephiroth around. Execution includes the chilling scenes in the Shinra building, the buildup towards and the powerful death of Aerith, the slow unveiling of Sephiroth as a character. It´s not like they ruined all of it, but a lot more than they needed to.
No, I quite understand what is good about the original. I played it back then and I'm playing it right. Remake executes quite amazing through the Midgar section, even considering hiccups. The strides in characterization and world building are immense. However, I don't know what that has to do with my comment about the core storyline being the same. Storyline and execution are not the same.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
40,601
8,845
1,600
Best Coast
You fail to understand what makes the original good.
Everyone's got different tastes and has different value judgements about the various components of any given work of media. It's a difference of opinion and taste, not a failure of understanding.

The original game is good due to it´s execution, not because a group follows Sephiroth around.
Remake is also good due to its execution. The characterization, story structure, music, gameplay, and literary themes are all woven together in a complex and engaging fashion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moogle11 and Shouta

Bryank75

Gold Member
Jan 12, 2018
4,437
6,999
710
Ireland
Loved it...

Really glad they came up with a different angle on things. Maybe they could have a patch later that...if you fail against the arbiter of fate that you can play through the game as it was in the OG!?
 

Paracelsus

Member
Jun 24, 2007
9,638
1,491
1,230
people keep acting like FF7 was a simple game and there was no madness. the original came was full of crazy shit.
again, the final fight versus Sephiroth in the original game HE DESTROYS AN ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM PLANET BY PLANET. that's just one of his attacks in the final battle. it's full of crazy shit.
None of it explains the new events, if you allow it to FFVII you would have to allow it to literally every game with anything remotely supernatural.
Multiverse is and should stay confined in comic books.

the team that made the original wanted to add new things when revisiting their work 20 years later. yes, they didn't make it exactly the way they made it 20 years ago.
Jessie is an addition, retconning the entire lore to the point of alternate dimensions time travel just for fanservice is different. This is way beyond Rise of Skywalker.

You fail to understand what makes the original good. The original game is good due to it´s execution, not because a group follows Sephiroth around. Execution includes the chilling scenes in the Shinra building, the buildup towards and the powerful death of Aerith, the slow unveiling of Sephiroth as a character. It´s not like they ruined all of it, but a lot more than they needed to.
The original was indeed a slower burn, but that's only part of the problem.
Some people associate FFVII being faithful to a hollow list of events like this.



Like the church scene or the Shinra assault at the end, you only have to ignore all the events inside and it's like the original.

But it's just a temporary debate, the moment they keep Aerith and Zack alive that's it, even if you keep following the order the story can never be the same again.
What's even "funnier" is that I see them being stupid enough to kill someone else to make up for it, like the point wasn't that someone died but that these two died.
This right now feels like an awkward in between TFA and TLJ+ROS.
 
Last edited: