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Spoilers Final Fantasy 7 Remake Spoilers Thread!

Lethal01

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im not sure what youre trying to say here, but i just think its all too complicated. if they wanted to change the story up then they should have just done that. they didnt beed to introduce a bunch if new confusing plot devices.

ive said that like 5 tines now lol kind of done discussing this
Maybe I'm wrong and that's why this keeps going in circles.
But it sounded like you were saying "These elements were added to justify the changes and so I wish they would just make the changes without adding these element"

But as has been said 7 times These elements were not added to justify making changes.

Just like you wanted they have "just made the changes" and this is the result. I am fine with you hating them and thinking it's complicatedbut these are the changes they decided to "just make"honestly sorry if you hate how complicated the changes they decided to go with are.
 

Lethal01

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None of it explains the new events, if you allow it to FFVII you would have to allow it to literally every game with anything remotely supernatural.
Multiverse is and should stay confined in comic books.



Jessie is an addition, retconning the entire lore to the point of alternate dimensions time travel just for fanservice is different. This is way beyond Rise of Skywalker.



The original was indeed a slower burn, but that's only part of the problem.
Some people associate FFVII being faithful to a hollow list of events like this.



Like the church scene or the Shinra assault at the end, you only have to ignore all the events inside and it's like the original.

But it's just a temporary debate, the moment they keep Aerith and Zack alive that's it, even if you keep following the order the story can never be the same again.
What's even "funnier" is that I see them being stupid enough to kill someone else to make up for it, like the point wasn't that someone died but that these two died.
This right now feels like an awkward in between TFA and TLJ+ROS.
It's not faithful just because it's falling the basic structure, it's failtful because it's capturing tons of what made the original great even though things are drastic. Even if it's a sequel faithful to the world, characters, themes, etc and when things start to majorly diverge it will probably still feel like a natural way things could have gone.

Or atleast it is for a huge amount of people playing, we all have our own opinions on what were the really important things that made the original what it was. You say that the fact that "somebody died" wasn't what's important but many think that the feeling of loss for a friend you care for is far more important than clouds backstory being exactly the same or the ending not changing.
 
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Rentahamster

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Good stuff picking out all the references.


Although I might be wrong . . . isn't the first appearance of black wing Sephiroth Kingdom Hearts? Not Advent Children.
 

Paracelsus

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It's not faithful just because it's falling the basic structure, it's failtful because it's capturing tons of what made the original great even though things are drastic. Even if it's a sequel faithful to the world, characters, themes, etc
Characters don't exist in a vacuum, you liking Aerith and Tifa's interactions in the Honey Bee scenes doesn't mean you can write whatever and it works. Characters are not separated from the events that happen to them.
"Since they did well in replicating something old I'll trust them writing something new" (because Square has such a great track record when it comes to time travel)
TFA->TLJ all over again.

and when things start to majorly diverge it will probably still feel like a natural way things could have gone.
Natural if you ignore the contrived retcons to make it possible.

You say that the fact that "somebody died" wasn't what's important but many think that the feeling of loss for a friend you care for is far more important than clouds backstory being exactly the same or the ending not changing.
What I said is that "the point wasn't that someone died but that these two died" which is a fact.
it wasn't "someone dying", but The Death of Aerith that was memorable. Who she is, her personality, her role before and after her death, how her death specifically impacts the cast, how the player and the party felt about her.
Cloud larping due to the shenanigans with Zack drives the core story elements, and him being crazy makes for both is and Tifa's character arc.
Saying "any death would do" or "everybody living is fine" is simply not true.
 
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Rentahamster

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At this point, I think one of my biggest unanswered questions is this:

During the cutscene right before you enter the whisper portal that Sephiroth creates, Aerith does some kind of magic spell and alters it. What the hell was that all about?

Here:
 

D.Final

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Loved it...

Really glad they came up with a different angle on things. Maybe they could have a patch later that...if you fail against the arbiter of fate that you can play through the game as it was in the OG!?
This would be strange and interesting at the same time
 
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Kamehameha

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Finally finished it and I'm able to jump into this topic.

As someone who almost completed OG FFVII (left it very near the end, want to go back now to finish it) overall I liked it what they did with the ending, despite being different from what you find in the OG until this point.

However I'm itching my head regarding some things that I didn't expect or understand.

1) The whispers. They're good or bad? From what I understand they're the souls of those who died and act on behalf of "Destiny". By the end of the game they help you (Barret survives because of a whisper and the crew survives on the bridge because of them). Why the hell are they so undefined? They seem to act as an entity that wants to stop Sephiroth, but at the same time they act like they want to stop you lol.

2) Why did the Whispers surrounded Shinra Tower?

3) Design wise the Arbinger immediately reminded me of this:



4) The Arbinger fight was cool, and I kind thought the game would end there, with the crew being separated by the end. The flashbacks you get from the future were a very nice touch and a pretty good way to tease the connection between part 1 and 2. You get a glimpse of what's to happen or not. But then...

5) Comes the unexpected fight to me. I seriously was not expecting to fight Sephiroth so soon. Rather, I wanted to fight Sephiroth but hoped they saved him for later. I enjoyed every bit of the fight, the battle is fantastic...way to fantastic for the first part of the game if you ask me. For a guy that's supposed to be the main villain it was a bit to soon to throw in a fight like that. Since I didn't finish OG, I suspect that by the end you fight JENOVA, but still...it's was too damn soon.

6) Considering Arbinger takes place in what seemed to be an alternate dimension/timeline, I'm guessing we fight an alternate Sephiroth, not the one from the crew's timeline. The whole timeline thing gives me way too many Xehanort vibes. Please don't go that way, for the love of god.

7) Man, the Zack homage...I really liked it seeing my boy Zack there, he is such a great character. But I didn't understand nothing about was going on. The whispers surrounding the town and he making out of there alive with Cloud...it felt, once again, like an alternative reality. Because the moment they show in the game, at least to me, is an alternative moment from the one where Zack fights the Shinra infantry and dies by the end, passing the Buster sword to Cloud.

8) So...

 
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Shouta

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Finally finished it and I'm able to jump into this topic.

As someone who almost completed OG FFVII (left it very near the end, want to go back now to finish it) overall I liked it what they did with the ending, despite being different from what you find in the OG until this point.

However I'm itching my head regarding some things that I didn't expect or understand.

1) The whispers. They're good or bad? From what I understand they're the souls of those who died and act on behalf of "Destiny". By the end of the game they help you (Barret survives because of a whisper and the crew survives on the bridge because of them). Why the hell are they so undefined? They seem to act as an entity that wants to stop Sephiroth, but at the same time they act like they want to stop you lol.
As far as we understand it, the Whispers are neutral. Their primary goal was to keep the course of events from deviating too heavily from what occurred in OG FF7 which is why they were sometimes antagonistic to Avalanche while helping them in other cases. Everything they do in the game aligns with the events the original game stuff like making sure Cloud goes on the second Reactor bombing to bringing back Barret from the dead since he wasn't supposed to die there. Those things would have immensely changed the course of events.

2) Why did the Whispers surrounded Shinra Tower?
I'm a little unsure of that myself and I don't think there's a direct answer in the game.

6) Considering Arbinger takes place in what seemed to be an alternate dimension/timeline, I'm guessing we fight an alternate Sephiroth, not the one from the crew's timeline. The whole timeline thing gives me way too many Xehanort vibes. Please don't go that way, for the love of god.
Sephiroth in the actual timeline should be still stuck where he was in OG FF7. It's like the Sephiroth they're fighting is some sort of fragment reformed from the lifestream or Jenova cells kinda like what happened in Advent Children.

7) Man, the Zack homage...I really liked it seeing my boy Zack there, he is such a great character. But I didn't understand nothing about was going on. The whispers surrounding the town and he making out of there alive with Cloud...it felt, once again, like an alternative reality. Because the moment they show in the game, at least to me, is an alternative moment from the one where Zack fights the Shinra infantry and dies by the end, passing the Buster sword to Cloud.
The whole thing indicates that the Whisper issue had an effect across time. Zack's Death and the events of FF7 in Midgard had at least a few months between each other so us seeing that during Zack's final battle shows that it was affecting the past and the present at the same time. The bag with the different Stamp that flies by indicates that something has changed as a result of the Whispers being defeated. Whether it means that the history of FF7 Remake's world was changed or there was a splinter dimension created, we're unsure of but we just know that Zack is alive as a result of it.

I would check some of the videos that were linked earlier in the thread since there's a lot of good discussion in those if you're interested in interpreting all of the information that was presented in the game and from other material.
 
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Kamehameha

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The whole thing indicates that the Whisper issue had an effect across time. Zack's Death and the events of FF7 in Midgard had at least a few months between each other so us seeing that during Zack's final battle shows that it was affecting the past and the present at the same time. The bag with the different Stamp that flies by indicates that something has changed as a result of the Whispers being defeated. Whether it means that the history of FF7 Remake's world was changed or there was a splinter dimension created, we're unsure of but we just know that Zack is alive as a result of it.
Damn I don't know how I feel if they bring back Zack from the dead.
 
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Zack's Death and the events of FF7 in Midgard had at least a few months between each other
The original doesn't mention that it's been months between Zack's death and the bombing mission, in fact the scene that plays after his death is Cloud at the Train station in a lucid state with the Buster Sword and as soon as he sees Tifa his new memory/personality is formed and he goes on to the bombing mission.

 

Shouta

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The original doesn't mention that it's been months between Zack's death and the bombing mission, in fact the scene that plays after his death is Cloud at the Train station in a lucid state with the Buster Sword and as soon as he sees Tifa his new memory/personality is formed and he goes on to the bombing mission.

Got a time stamp in that video for that scene? I'm playing through the JP version of OG right now but I haven't run into that yet.

Regardless though, there's definitely a certain amount of time that occurs between Zack's death and the event of FF7 so the Whisper issue is occurring both in the past and present. Additionally, there might be some other minute time changes as a result of this being Remake as well. :p
 

#Phonepunk#

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2) Why did the Whispers surrounded Shinra Tower?
almost every Final Fantasy has ended with a sky filling interdimensional God and that's what happens in this one too. they needed some big exploding ending to a game where you just stand around on the end of a road. so they pulled this stuff out. were people really expecting this game to end with the motorcycle segment? imo that would have been far lamer. this is a cool, explosive ending, in the old style, and it also introduces a bunch of uknowns and sequel hooks into the plot. people will be decoding this stuff for years trying to figure out what will happen. if it was a 1:1 copy, everyone would be "Oh boy can't wait until Aerith dies", imo this is a more interesting and creative way to do it.
Additionally, there might be some other minute time changes as a result of this being Remake as well.
i mean the whole game is rewritten. if you wanted a 1:1 copy that dream died when they announced a series of titles. this is a "remake" for a reason. there will be lots of new stuff. just try comparing dialog in the demo and you'll see, they rewrote a lot of the game. that's what the project has been for years.

i like it. i don't need a 1:1 copy. if i want to see the og dialog, i will play that game. i own like 3 copies of it. i really don't care if they change stuff and actually welcome it. it's cool. we have a new version of this game, which follows the same basic plot, but has cool new elements to it. all this fretting about how it's altering things seems silly to me.
 
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Got a time stamp in that video for that scene? I'm playing through the JP version of OG right now but I haven't run into that yet.

Regardless though, there's definitely a certain amount of time that occurs between Zack's death and the event of FF7 so the Whisper issue is occurring both in the past and present. Additionally, there might be some other minute time changes as a result of this being Remake as well. :p
Here's the scene.
 

Shouta

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Thanks. I actually wonder how much time actually has passed. We do know and see that there are other folks that were affected by Mako poisioning like Cloud was in the game. Most of them seem to have been out of it a long time. Makes me wonder if Cloud was wandering Midgar or awhile or he just got to Sector 7 right away. 🤔
 
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D.Final

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Finally finished it and I'm able to jump into this topic.

As someone who almost completed OG FFVII (left it very near the end, want to go back now to finish it) overall I liked it what they did with the ending, despite being different from what you find in the OG until this point.

However I'm itching my head regarding some things that I didn't expect or understand.

1) The whispers. They're good or bad? From what I understand they're the souls of those who died and act on behalf of "Destiny". By the end of the game they help you (Barret survives because of a whisper and the crew survives on the bridge because of them). Why the hell are they so undefined? They seem to act as an entity that wants to stop Sephiroth, but at the same time they act like they want to stop you lol.

2) Why did the Whispers surrounded Shinra Tower?

3) Design wise the Arbinger immediately reminded me of this:



4) The Arbinger fight was cool, and I kind thought the game would end there, with the crew being separated by the end. The flashbacks you get from the future were a very nice touch and a pretty good way to tease the connection between part 1 and 2. You get a glimpse of what's to happen or not. But then...

5) Comes the unexpected fight to me. I seriously was not expecting to fight Sephiroth so soon. Rather, I wanted to fight Sephiroth but hoped they saved him for later. I enjoyed every bit of the fight, the battle is fantastic...way to fantastic for the first part of the game if you ask me. For a guy that's supposed to be the main villain it was a bit to soon to throw in a fight like that. Since I didn't finish OG, I suspect that by the end you fight JENOVA, but still...it's was too damn soon.

6) Considering Arbinger takes place in what seemed to be an alternate dimension/timeline, I'm guessing we fight an alternate Sephiroth, not the one from the crew's timeline. The whole timeline thing gives me way too many Xehanort vibes. Please don't go that way, for the love of god.

7) Man, the Zack homage...I really liked it seeing my boy Zack there, he is such a great character. But I didn't understand nothing about was going on. The whispers surrounding the town and he making out of there alive with Cloud...it felt, once again, like an alternative reality. Because the moment they show in the game, at least to me, is an alternative moment from the one where Zack fights the Shinra infantry and dies by the end, passing the Buster sword to Cloud.

8) So...

Definitely Kingdom Hearts 7
 
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Rentahamster

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Congrats on beating the game!

There's a lot of discussion on previous pages about how we feel about the ending and its implications, but here is also an alternative if you'd rather watch videos instead:

These first two podcasts have a lot of background info from people who are fans who have thought about the ending for a bit:



This next video puts it all together in a tighter package:


These next two videos are not deep dives into story implications, but rather a reaction to the ending and a review from a Youtuber who is one of the biggest fans of FF7. His take on the game is pretty close to how I feel about it.


 
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Kamehameha

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Definitely Kingdom Hearts 7
Right? God I hope not.

As someone who considers himself a big Kingdom Hearts fan, having played all titles of the series, I can safely say that narrative wise shit went down the road after KH2. It's probably one of the worse storytelling in gaming I can think of. Too damn convoluted and confusing. Please leave that shit out of FFVII Nomura.
 

Dark Oni

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Right? God I hope not.

As someone who considers himself a big Kingdom Hearts fan, having played all titles of the series, I can safely say that narrative wise shit went down the road after KH2. It's probably one of the worse storytelling in gaming I can think of. Too damn convoluted and confusing. Please leave that shit out of FFVII Nomura.
too late for that *see the ending
 
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DryPancakes

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I fail to see how predestination, multiple timelines and possible time travel is in any way an organic part of this story when it had absolutely nothing to do with those elements in the first place, the whipsers are clumsy and inconsistent and it's almost a universal consensus they are the worst part of the game, and yet, they are the main driving force for the new plot elements.

Not only those ideas are (subjectively) bad, and usually a crutch when writers have no ideas left, they're also (almost objectively) badly executed.
 
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Rentahamster

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I fail to see how predestination, multiple timelines and possible time travel is in any way an organic part of this story when it had absolutely nothing to do with those elements in the first place, the whipsers are clumsy and inconsistent and it's almost a universal consensus they are the worst part of the game, and yet, they are the main driving force for the new plot elements.

Not only those ideas are (subjectively) bad, and usually a crutch when writers have no ideas left, they're also (almost objectively) badly executed.
If the design objectives were to give the player a nostalgic, expanded, satisfying experience with the FF7 characters and themes, but while also throwing in some curveballs that unifies the lore and give the audience a sense of drama and surprise since they don't know what can happen in the future, I'd say that it's mission accomplished.
 
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Sign

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KH suffered from being relegated to handheld for a decade plus where it was tasked with asking a bunch of questions but never being allowed to resolve anything. FF7R will not have that problem. Even now they could quite literally copy pasta the og for part 2 and little to nothing would be out of place.

With that being said, I do think Harbinger's design is the weakest in the game. It is not all that interesting. It does not sit flush with anything else in the game including the plot ghosts. It doesn't harken back to anything in the original and is not really evocative of what it is supposed to represent or serve.

Say what you will about KH, but the end boss designs are always interesting to look at.
 
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Kamehameha

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KH suffered from being relegated to handheld for a decade plus where it was tasked with asking a bunch of questions but never being allowed to resolve anything. FF7R will not have that problem. Even now they could quite literally copy pasta the og for part 2 and little to nothing would be out of place.

With that being said, I do think Harbinger's design is the weakest in the game. It is not all that interesting. It does not sit flush with anything else in the game including the plot ghosts. It doesn't harken back to anything in the original and is not really evocative of what it is supposed to represent or serve.

Say what you will about KH, but the end boss designs are always interesting to look at.

KH3 final boss was pretty mehish. Even the secret one was disappointing.
 

DryPancakes

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If the design objectives were to give the player a nostalgic, expanded, satisfying experience with the FF7 characters and themes, but while also throwing in some curveballs that unifies the lore and give the audience a sense of drama and surprise since they don't know what can happen in the future, I'd say that it's mission accomplished.
True, that doesn't necessarily make it a good story.

I don't know how the "curveballs" introduced unify the lore, you mean to the compilation? the compilation that is regarded as almost all bad? Good job then, you unified it and made FF7 just as terrible.

Also, focusing on surprise is so detrimental to storytelling, because "subverting expectations" has worked so well in the past, I rather have plot elements happen the way they were even if I know of it, than change it just for the sake of shock and surprise, that's just temporary (and nowadays, disposable) satisfaction, in the long run, a good story is more than just surprise, it's also execution, even if the execution leads to a familiar place. That's why the original is so memorable and beloved, not because it had surprising moments but because those surprising moments were backed by a good story and even to this day the shock and surprise is not the important part, but the events leading to it and the lasting effects they had in the rest of the story. Remember when Barret died and was revived, what a surprise, right? It ultimately meant nothing, it was actually detrimental and it just lowered the stakes of the story, so much so that death, such an important theme in the original, seems to mean nothing anymore.
 

Rentahamster

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True, that doesn't necessarily make it a good story.
Agreed. Just because they achieved their design objectives doesn't necessarily mean that they used the best storytelling to do so. However, in the case of FF7R, I think they nailed it for the most part. If you accept that OG FF7 has a good story, and FF7R is 90% faithful to that original story, while even expanding and improving on the characterization, relationship, themes, and backstories, then how can you not accept that 90% (which is a majority) as a good story? Is that last 10% such a dealbreaker that it retroactively cancels out that 90% OG goodness?

I don't know how the "curveballs" introduced unify the lore, you mean to the compilation?
My wording is a little unclear, but the lore unification is under the umbrella of the entire game and not just the curveballs. In terms of curveballs, the overly knowledgeable Aerith and Sephiroth would be one, as well as the connections of the Whispers to Advent Children and the overall lore of the Lifestream.

In terms of the game overall, there's a lot of references to Crisis Core and the other compilation elements that can be integrated seamlessly now that the Compilation works are behind FF7R and already known, rather than in FF7 where they didn't exist yet.

the compilation that is regarded as almost all bad? Good job then, you unified it and made FF7 just as terrible.
I don't think the consensus is that they're all bad. There is a mixed bag of opinions about the compilation, but the only thing that I'd say most people think is mostly bad would be Dirge of Cerberus. Crisis Core was good. Advent Children was okay. The short stories were pretty good, but not many people read them. It's usually a bad argument to say that the main material works better if only you've read the side stuff (lol Star Wars), so as FF7R pulls in the Compilation elements to create one cohesive narrative, I think that's a good thing.

Also, focusing on surprise is so detrimental to storytelling, because "subverting expectations" has worked so well in the past,
I don't think they focused on surprise, so to speak, at the detriment of other story elements. "Subverting expectations" is also not necessarily a bad thing. It's just gotten a bad rap from recent media that has used it badly. Storytelling tools are just tools. It's up to the authors to use them well, or badly.


Back before fans started using it as a shorthand to criticize The Last Jedi, “subverting expectations” was generally seen as a positive thing. Stories that relied too heavily on genre tropes to drive their narratives were seen as hackneyed, predictable, and didn’t add anything new to the cultural landscape. Audiences crave stories that are new and different, or at the very least, those which present old tropes in a new way. In the late 90’s and early 2000’s, this meant a new era of antiheroes, grounded tales in gritty realities, and ironic self-awareness.
I rather have plot elements happen the way they were even if I know of it, than change it just for the sake of shock and surprise, that's just temporary (and nowadays, disposable) satisfaction, in the long run, a good story is more than just surprise, it's also execution, even if the execution leads to a familiar place. That's why the original is so memorable and beloved, not because it had surprising moments but because those surprising moments were backed by a good story and even to this day the shock and surprise is not the important part, but the events leading to it and the lasting effects they had in the rest of the story.
I agree that the plot should be driven by the characters, their motivations, their actions, within the context of their environment. How can that be a knock against Remake, though, when all of the character moments, motivations, personality, and actions are mostly the same? The execution plays out the same in Remake as it does in the original. If anything, the Remake fleshes out this execution in a much deeper fashion. Those same memorable and beloved moments in the original are still present in Remake. Those "events leading to it and the lasting effects" are still there.

Remember when Barret died and was revived, what a surprise, right? It ultimately meant nothing, it was actually detrimental and it just lowered the stakes of the story, so much so that death, such an important theme in the original, seems to mean nothing anymore.
It actually doesn't ultimately mean nothing. Throughout the game, we have instances of the plot diverging from the original, but the Whispers intervene to keep things in line with the original game. Barret's "death" was one of the more drastic examples of that. Just seeing it as some kind of unearned ressurection that lowers the stakes doesn't take into account what happens later. After that scene, your party goes on to defeat the Whispers entirely. Aerith states that what lies beyond is boundless terrifying freedom, as Zack also exclaims that the price of freedom is steep. By defeating the Whisper Harbinger, the party and the story is no longer bound by the shackles of the OG's storyline. Now, Barret can totally die because there won't be any Whispers to save him. Death as a theme is still very much present in Remake. The stakes and the drama are higher now because you have no guarantee that any one thing in particular will happen exactly the same.
 
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Sign

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Just for clarification, my previous post was merely about the visual design of the Harbinger. I'm more than okay with both the content and context of the fight.

KH3 final boss was pretty mehish. Even the secret one was disappointing.
Who you fight at the end of KH3 I feel like was always going to happen. Given that, I thought they did a great job in terms of visuals and content. The whole lead up to the very last encounter is one crazy fight after another. The only real problems were difficulty and pacing.

Difficulty has since been addressed but the pacing is terrible. What's funny is that everything is there on paper it just isn't given the time to breathe. The game very much follows the standard KH story structure, but there is just so much to cover the game just collapses under its own weight. I think what makes it frustrating is that 2/3 of the game is just wheel spinning until the game runs out of Disney worlds.

The secret boss has a way better design than Harbinger, but for KH it doesn't hold a candle to. . .

(Kingdom Hearts 2: Final Mix Bosses)

Lingering "I'm going to end your whole career" Will and Sephi "I hope you were mashing triangle" roth

. . . but then few ever do.

True, that doesn't necessarily make it a good story.

I don't know how the "curveballs" introduced unify the lore, you mean to the compilation? the compilation that is regarded as almost all bad? Good job then, you unified it and made FF7 just as terrible.

Also, focusing on surprise is so detrimental to storytelling, because "subverting expectations" has worked so well in the past, I rather have plot elements happen the way they were even if I know of it, than change it just for the sake of shock and surprise, that's just temporary (and nowadays, disposable) satisfaction, in the long run, a good story is more than just surprise, it's also execution, even if the execution leads to a familiar place. That's why the original is so memorable and beloved, not because it had surprising moments but because those surprising moments were backed by a good story and even to this day the shock and surprise is not the important part, but the events leading to it and the lasting effects they had in the rest of the story. Remember when Barret died and was revived, what a surprise, right? It ultimately meant nothing, it was actually detrimental and it just lowered the stakes of the story, so much so that death, such an important theme in the original, seems to mean nothing anymore.
Barret getting stabbed was shocking because the game did such a great job fleshing out his character. If he had died in the original in Midgar it would have been unfortunate, but here it would have been a tragedy. This game has better characters than the original, it is not even close and that is thanks to the characterizations and storytelling .

The point of rezzing Barret was not to diminish the idea of death but demonstrate that all death serves a greater purpose. That a single death is felt by all and that the planet has a role for everyone in life. Hell, if the whispers are the souls of those that have died then the planet has a role for those in death as well. The characters are literally being guided by their ancestors throughout this game and that is about as spiritual as one can get.

Removing their influence was a gamble, Aerith says as much at the end. Whether this was a true moment of clarity or merely a belief that faltered is really going to depend on how it all plays out. I think anyone that has dealt with religion or spirituality understands that feeling of trying to figure out how to best serve. But, I think it is important to note that it was Aerith who makes that decision. Aerith is basically the last tie the world has to the planet -she is the only one who could make this decision. The planet doesn't really seem to care about humans as evidenced by the Weapons in OG, and she clearly believes the species is worth saving.

I feel like people are looking at the plot ghosts as this foreign unrelated entity when in reality they are just another (thematically relevant) Weapon called by the planet that are now (seemingly) gone.
 

wzy

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The Barret thing serves no plot or thematic purpose whatsoever it's just yet another callback to the original. Barret was one of two characters the designers considered for the role of getting killed by Sephiroth, the other obviously being Aerith. It's just a little nod to another potential "alternate" timeline for the game.
 

Rentahamster

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The Barret thing serves no plot or thematic purpose whatsoever it's just yet another callback to the original. Barret was one of two characters the designers considered for the role of getting killed by Sephiroth, the other obviously being Aerith. It's just a little nod to another potential "alternate" timeline for the game.
They actually considered killing all of the characters except for three, but Nomura nipped that in the bud.
 

Sign

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The Barret thing reinforces the plot by showing:

That the plot ghosts will help or harm to get what they want. They care about outcomes and those outcomes may not be the best for people. Barret knows this first hand as they prevented him from stopping Rude from dropping the plate . They are a neautral party at best. Barret wants what is best for people we know this from what he asked of President Shinra. If Barret only cared about the planet he would have echoed Tseng's words about sector 7 being a sacrifice. The neautrality also lends credence to Aerith making the call to go against them. All of this is plot and character relevant.

The Barret thing reinforces the themes of death by showing the significance of the ripple effect it has.
 

Rentahamster

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They care about outcomes and those outcomes may not be the best for people.
Yup. Like Bugenhagen said in FF7, the planet doesn't care if Holy wipes out humans too, if it indeed sees humans as just another threat.

The planet don't give a shit about humans. All it knows is that the exact events of FF7 leads to Meteor being stopped, so it is (was) going to keep working towards that destiny, even if that also means the eventual extinction of humanity.
 
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DryPancakes

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Is that last 10% such a dealbreaker that it retroactively cancels out that 90% OG goodness?
I certainly think so, that OG goodness means nothing ultimatrely when it all comes crashing down at the end, for me, and many I believe, few sections in isolation are not what good stories are about, the whole needs to come togheter and reinforce each part, good stories have good setups and good payoffs, we have 90% set up, 10% nonsesne and no pay off, sure you can say next parts will, but that last 10% made sure to kill my interest.

as well as the connections of the Whispers to Advent Children and the overall lore of the Lifestream.
Introducing new rules for the lifestream and the planet is not the same as expanding the lore, sound more like retcons, to me it achieves the opossite, it damages their consisntency. Weapons were just sleeping creatures woken up to attack and destroy, now it can create magical ghosts that revive people? and somehow defeating them changed another timeline?
and apparently you can use the lifestream to time travel physically or just your concisousnes? I'm sorry, I don't see how that's an interesting expansion of the lore but a confusing mess of new rules for the sake of... "surprise" I guess.

Storytelling tools are just tools. It's up to the authors to use them well, or badly.
True, I don't think they used them well.

Those same memorable and beloved moments in the original are still present in Remake. Those "events leading to it and the lasting effects" are still there.
I disagree, the build up to Sephiroth as a villain and the trail of blood, two of the most memorable moments of the orignal are gone, Aerith's fate is probably going to be changed, who knows, Zack's lasting effect on Cloud and Aerith's characters is most certainly going to change, Barret's arc is not nearly as interesting now that we know avanalanche is absolved of all guilt, Avalanache member's and most of the slums survivinng means the consequneces are not as high anymore. One of the few additions I thought were great was witnessing the destruction after the first bombing, but again, that was Shinra not you, so it only serves to establish Shinra as cartoonishly evil instead of the nuanced gray of Avalance.

It actually doesn't ultimately mean nothing. Throughout the game, we have instances of the plot diverging from the original, but the Whispers intervene to keep things in line with the original game. Barret's "death" was one of the more drastic examples of that. Just seeing it as some kind of unearned ressurection that lowers the stakes doesn't take into account what happens later. After that scene, your party goes on to defeat the Whispers entirely. Aerith states that what lies beyond is boundless terrifying freedom, as Zack also exclaims that the price of freedom is steep. By defeating the Whisper Harbinger, the party and the story is no longer bound by the shackles of the OG's storyline. Now, Barret can totally die because there won't be any Whispers to save him. Death as a theme is still very much present in Remake. The stakes and the drama are higher now because you have no guarantee that any one thing in particular will happen exactly the same.
I don't know, interpretaton is open I guess, but the concept of the whispers in itself is so flawed to me that anyhitng they do, including reviving people, even if it serves a greter purpose, seems cheap, especially when you give no time to process it.

That being said, they chickcened out killing anyone in this remake, I don't think they will do anything drastic in that regard in next parts, even blood was replaced with purple goop, to me what they established was that they want to lower the stakes not raise them.

Speaking of lasting effects, the "price of freedom" had a different meaning originally, you have to fight for your freedom even if it kills you, basically Zack's death was the price to pay for Cloud's freedom, that's powerful, and now it means the price for the new game is killing the OG timeline? and if we take the metanarrative into account (which that last part totally is) meaning you free yourself from the responsibility of doing a proper remake? no man, I don't like that one bit.

Other thing that bothers me is the fact that the metanarrative is so blatantly meta it doens't feeel like an organic part of the story. If there's one answer I want is this:

Aerith states that what lies beyond is boundless terrifying freedom.

We know what that means for the devs and the audince, but what does it mean for the characters within the stablished story?
 
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Kamehameha

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The reunion at hand may bring joy. It may bring fear. But let us embrace whatever it brings. For they are coming back.
I just realized they've been trolling us since E3 2005 trailer and most of us didn't even noticed it.
 
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Ikutachi

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again, the final fight versus Sephiroth in the original game HE DESTROYS AN ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM PLANET BY PLANET. that's just one of his attacks in the final battle. it's full of crazy shit.
It's an illusionary tactic. The game is grounded enough that if it was literal, it'd be over. The move could be used multiple times, cannot kill the party (reduces HP by 15/16), and can inflict a status effect of slow, confusion, or silence.
 
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DryPancakes

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It's an illusionary tactic. The game is grounded enough that if it was literal, it'd be over. And the move could be used multiple times.
Not only that but originally it was never supposed to be that bombastic and it was added later just for show in the american version, I don't think it ever had any implications about the real destruction of the universe.


Also, it's our universe, is the FF7 world supposed to be earth? I don't think they thought too hard about it.
 

D.Final

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Not only that but originally it was never supposed to be that bombastic and it was added later just for show in the american version, I don't think it ever had any implications about the real destruction of the universe.


Also, it's our universe, is the FF7 world supposed to be earth? I don't think they thought too hard about it.
True
 

Ikutachi

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Also, it's our universe, is the FF7 world supposed to be earth? I don't think they thought too hard about it.
In the American version, the move shows the name on each planet identical to our solar system, but deliberately left "Earth" unnamed.
 

Kamehameha

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Have you guys thought that perhaps we live in an alternative timeline in which Nomura himself was able to put his finger on FF VII narrative, thus the Remake existence?

In the original timeline there's no Remake at all.

 
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Fbh

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Hey didn't know we have a Spoiler thread.
Just finished this a couple of days ago.

Overall I really liked the re telling of the story, the more fleshed out scenes with some of the side cast are great. Never really cared much for Jessie and friends in the original but I really liked them here and it hits harder when shit starts going down. I also enjoyed the interactions and different dynamics within the core cast, it's awesome seeing them interact in fully animated cutscenes and can't wait to see how some future scenes play out.
I also have to say that the overall writing was A LOT better and less cringy than I expected from a Nomura game. Maybe the japanese voices help but I really enjoyed all of the cutscenes.

As for the whispers ... they felt unnecessary, more than expanding the story in any truly meaningful way to me they felt like the solution they came up with to solve various "issues" when designing the game: They are used to expand some areas, they are a good excuse to have a cool final boss as opposed to having the highway mech be it, and they are also a good excuse to put a lot more of Sephiroth in the game. But I didn't particularly like the whole "fate" angle, and the weird hooded dudes felt like Nomura being Nomura.

Also, once we start talking about fighting "fate" I sort of worry
They'll try and save Aerith from her fate, which would suck
 

DryPancakes

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They are used to expand some areas, they are a good excuse to have a cool final boss as opposed to having the highway mech be it, and they are also a good excuse to put a lot more of Sephiroth in the game.
They had enough material to work with and expand without the whispers. just watched Austin Eruption's video on it and I like his idea, he proposed that Rufus could have come back with all the turks as the final boss, or there's the idea that Roche could have been built to be the final boss, or heck, just move jenova from the lab to the end of the highway, that's perfect final boss material music and all, they could have done so much that would have felt more natural.
 

Sign

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Platinumed and Play log completed! What a ride. 9/10 best single player game the Square portion of the company has made in a decade plus.

Pros:

- Amazing soundtrack and use of music.
- Graphics outside of some texture stuff was fantastic: main character models, animations, lighting, particles, etc.
- Best characters Square has had in a very long time.
- The COMBAT! Good LORD! Everything from the different playing characters to the new materia types allowing for specialization.
- Scene direction, camera transitions, etc were consistently a treat. For example, the arena intro camera pull back to behind Cloud was really neat.
- The sense of humor.
- The presence of any sort of romance/ flirting which has felt absent since FFX.
- The dialogue options and alternative scenes.
- That FUCKING COMBAT!
- The boss battles are consistently strong, and some of the best in the series.
- Weapons being useable throughout the game via the really awesome talent system.
- Hard mode and everything it brings to the experience.
- Chapter select and its usefulness.

Cons:

- Textures, particularly the skybox stuff for the section 5 under-plate in ch. 6(?) and the wreckage in ch.15.
- Aerial combat with melee characters is not great (and should be improved or removed entirely for those characters).
- The camera needed an option that allowed manual control but have a button to recenter on the mob being targeted rather than an either-or.
- A lot of the slow walking in this game seems to mask loading, but some just seems to be for the role-play. . . do not do this devs.
- The game ends.

Missed Opportunities:

- The Harbinger, visually, could have been more flush with other Weapons, the phantoms, things from this game or the OG. It is missing something.
- Chapter 3, 8, and 14 side quests should have focused on the main and supporting cast, and lore like planetology.
- Chapter 9 had both branching quests and alternative dialogue based on materia level. Every section would have benefited from things like this.
- Dungeons could have been more in depth, maze and puzzle like. Environments in general would have benefited from more interactivity.
- Jessie not acknowledging that her actions may have just killed her parents. This is still in the background but really could have been driven home.
- The Shinra underground lab should have housed a post game dungeon.
- The lack of an open Midgar top-side area is unfortunate. Would have fit after chapter 15, but before getting to Shinra HQ. Domino covers your tracks.
- Not stopping the game from ending.

Requests:

- Let us select a new target from a list in the command menu without having to use an ability/spell. Basically. . . Command Menu: [ABS>SP>ITM>TRGT>LM]
- Let us jump to a different character while in the command menu and not just assign an ability/spell.
- Let us assign a move to each character before removing us from the command menu.
- Camera option to manually control but with a recenter on target button.
- Materia quick swap and load-out.
- A definitive statement that Tifa is only ever going to be just friends with Cloud. The TifaxCloud shippers are getting uppity!
- Try and keep the game from ending.

_____

Aerith talks about freedom in the end because she clearly knows more than she is letting on. If they walk through that portal and do what she has requested anything could happen. Will it lead to a better out come? A worse one? No one knows -not her, Sephiroth, or the Planet. All she does know is that who they were destined to be, and what they were destined to do is now in their control (hopefully).

The Whispers exist to facilitate a sequel / remake, and part 5 of the compilation of Final Fantasy VII . They have actual narrative, thematic, and plot puposes the ramifications of which will extend beyond this game. Suggesting they just be Replaced with Roche/ Rufus demonstrates a failure to understand the function they serve and why. It would have unironically just been filler. Square turned Hell House into a show stopping boss when many thought it would not even be in the game. The Whispers are a very deliberate choice that transcends "we need a last boss and can't think of one."
 
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Sign

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I kind of wish they do something like FFXV dungeons in the next installment, but for side content. Those were pretty cool, one of the best parts of the game.
Pitioss is my favorite dungeon in the whole series, so I'd love to see more things like that. XV had some pretty neat dungeons in general. . . barring the weird never-ending caves that were for post game. I did not mess with those areas too much, but maybe they got better.
 
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Kamehameha

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Pitioss is my favorite dungeon in the whole series, so I'd love to see more things like that. XV had some pretty neat dungeons in general. . . barring the weird never-ending caves that were for post game. I did not mess with those areas too much, but maybe they got better.
That's the one full of puzzles, right? The one you access only with the Regalia?

Amazing dungeon, I agree.
 
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Kamehameha

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Guys, tips for behemoth fight on hard, in the Shinra simulator?

I'm being shred to pieces.

As far as I can tell I can't use spells until his body parts are out. I need to go near him but he does so much damage...
 
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Rentahamster

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As far as I can tell I can't use spells until his body parts are out.
You can't use spells until you break the horns. Break the ass and chest first, when he's staggered, DPS the horns as much as you can.

Cloud: Triple slash spam or infinity's end.

Tifa: True strike > true strike > Rise and Fall > Ommnistrike > True Strike > True strike combo when staggered to maximize damage mulitplier

Barret: Maximum Fury Spam

I need to go near him but he does so much damage...
Counter with Punisher stance, and the counter skill.
 

Kamehameha

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You can't use spells until you break the horns. Break the ass and chest first, when he's staggered, DPS the horns as much as you can.

Cloud: Triple slash spam or infinity's end.

Tifa: True strike > true strike > Rise and Fall > Ommnistrike > True Strike > True strike combo when staggered to maximize damage mulitplier

Barret: Maximum Fury Spam


Counter with Punisher stance, and the counter skill.
The best I got was lower body, upper body, almost full horns. Then the SOB regenerated and wiped me :messenger_loudly_crying:

Think I'm gonna farm materia a little more.