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[kevm3]

What exactly is a genre-defining ggame? When I think of genre-definer, I think of a game that takes the elements of that specific genre and does it so well, that it outclasses other games.

In that regards, I would say Peter Molyneux is wrong in calling FF7 genre defining. Let's make no mistake. It was one of the best games I've played and it was an awesome EXPERIENCE, but it did little to 'define' or push forward anything in the RPG genre. I will say that it really pushed the RPG category in terms of popularity. However, anyone that has been playing RPGs for a while prior to FF7 won't really find anything that it did specific to the RPG genre that really stood out above other games.

I don't sit back and think, "that gameplay system in FF7 really needs to be in future rpgs!" I sit back and think, wow, FF7 had awesome graphics, sound, and characters. None of that goes towards defining what an rpg should be. A game like Baldur-s Gate 2 or Planescape Torment actually go much further in defining what an RPG should be, with Planescape's intricate story or Baldur's Gate 2's battle system, characters, etc., After playing those two games, it almost made going back to the traditional JRPG impossible for me... But somehow I managed lol.

 

[Raziel]

its amazing so many people don't know what genre-defining means

 

[larvi]

For someone who wrote a lot of great old PC games I guess he didn't play a lot of the great old PC RPGs that came out before FFVII.

 

[Cowie]

I'm not sure if the way the word "defined" is being tossed around in this thread and statement is quite correct. Maybe its just the ideas I attach to it, but to me it would be better to say something like "helped define" or "redefined'.

When you say to me that ff7 defined rpgs, the implication I get is that you don't think any rpg before it had any significant bearing on the genre. I'm hoping thats not how its meant here.

 

[Vorador]

Bringing a genre to the mass market would define it pretty well, if you ask me. It did something pretty substantial that other games in the genre could not achieve.

But that's subjective. It's like discovering the racing genre with Sony's F1. For you it's genre defining, but for somebody playing racing games for a longer time, it just another racing game. I'm sure the people who played FFIV and or FFVI found FFVII far less "genre defining" than the people who began with FFVII.

 

[Mash]

I think he just means it set a new standard, stop obsessing over semantics.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I'm not sure if the way the word "defined" is being tossed around in this thread and statement is quite correct. Maybe its just the ideas I attach to it, but to me it would be better to say something like "helped define" or "redefined'.

When you say to me that ff7 defined rpgs, the implication I get is that you don't think any rpg before it had any significant bearing on the genre. I'm hoping thats not how its meant here.

Not to discredit earlier RPGs prior to Final Fantasy VII, but again, if it managed to do something substantial like bringing the RPG to the mass market, then that is, as far as I'm concerned, "genre defining". It did something no other RPG could do and for millions of gamers, the RPG genre started at Final Fantasy VII.

There are no doubt better RPGs than Final Fantasy VII that existed prior, but FFVII managed to meld a lot of concepts together and present them in such a way that no other RPG had ever done before, and it reaped rewards and success the likes no company had gotten on a game like that outside of Japan.

Saying FFVII didn't define the genre is like being the guy who likes an indie band and when they end up on MTV (or whatever, MTV doesn't play that much music anymore) and the whole world is singing their praise you go, "Eh, their first Mainstream Album wasn't very good." You think the people who are just discovering them for the first time give a shit? Nope! To them, that album defines a lot of things for them, even if that specific album doesn't define anything for you.

 

[Regulus Tera]

As much as I hate Final Fantasy VII (fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck ffvii), I have to agree with the guy. It's the whole reason RPGs these days are exposition fest.

 

[LaserBuddha]

But that's subjective. It's like discovering the racing genre with Sony's F1. For you it's genre defining, but for somebody playing racing games for a longer time, it just another racing game. I'm sure the people who played FFIV and or FFVI found FFVII far less "genre defining" than the people who began with FFVII.

No it really isnt subjective. Your misinterpreted meaning certainly is, however, so you are actually right in what you are saying. He isn't talking about anyone's own personal defining game. He's talking about the RPG that left the biggest mark on the industry and the market as a whole, and has had the biggest impact on how the genre is approached today. That game is FVII, and despite what many people around here think, it has nothing to do with how good or bad the game was, nor how much or little innovation there was to be found in it.

I swear, just about no one on GAF has the mental capacity to judge or discuss anything about a game without turning it into a simple quality debate (not referring to the person I quoted here). Their stance on anything is defined by how much they liked/disliked the game, regardless of the actual topic.

 

[Vorador]

The problem is how many people don't get what it means to "define a genre". Being a best seller and very well know doesn't make Harry Potter books genre defining.





I bail out. I cannot win.

 

[Monroeski]

I think he just means it set a new standard, stop obsessing over semantics.

QFT, for the most part, anyway. There was a distinct shift in the way JRPGs were structured when FF7 came out. It may not define the genre since the beginning of time, but it certainly defined the genre from the point it came out to the present.

 

[LaserBuddha]

The problem is how many people don't get what it means to "define a genre". Being a best seller and very well know doesn't make Harry Potter books genre defining.

But if Harry Potter goes on to have a strong influence on further young adult fiction, as well as frames out what the masses think of when they think "young adult fiction", then it does define the genre.

Unless, you know, you pretend that FFVII had no influence or impact whatsoever and just had high sales.

 

[ianp622]

I'm a PS3 fanboy and I don't like FFVII much, but I can't disagree with his statement completely. I've had those "wow" moments while playing MGS4. But he says the FFVII defined the RPG genre for him. For him, maybe, but I don't see anything that FFVII did that FFVI didn't do better. I think it had better characters, the story didn't drag like FFVII, and the combat was more fun.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

The problem is how many people don't get what it means to "define a genre". Being a best seller and very well know doesn't make Harry Potter books genre defining.





I bail out. I cannot win.

FFVII had genre defining presentation. Are you happy now? I narrowed it down for you. No jRPG before Final Fantasy VII looked that way, and almost every jRPG after FFVII followed in its footsteps. Flashy summons and spell animations, cinematic cutscenes, etc.

We went from 16x32 midget sprites to a cinematic presentation nobody had ever seen before.

 

[neorej]

I'm a PS3 fanboy and I don't like FFVII much, but I can't disagree with his statement completely. I've had those "wow" moments while playing MGS4. But he says the FFVII defined the RPG genre for him. For him, maybe, but I don't see anything that FFVII did that FFVI didn't do better. I think it had better characters, the story didn't drag like FFVII, and the combat was more fun.

FF VII had 3D pre-rendered cutscenes that made you go 'wow'.

 

[SabinFigaro]

The problem is how many people don't get what it means to "define a genre". Being a best seller and very well know doesn't make Harry Potter books genre defining.

But, Harry Potter has "defined the genre" for millions of young children around the world. Many kids were not interested in reading or books until they came across Harry Potter. Have these books changed the face of fantasy or children's literature? Not necessarily in approach or innovation. So what have they changed? Perception. Acceptance. A whole new audience has been born.

FF7, love it or hate it, has done the same. A new audience has been born. These examples have not necessarily brought innovation to the genre, but they have "defined the genre" for future audiences.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

ITT: Semantics. GAF argues over them, ignores key-word in Molyneux observation.

 

[djtiesto]

Awesome, FF7 was a great game and very influential (both in a good and bad way) for RPGs released after it. Perhaps some subtle FF7 influence is why I found Fable more fun than most of the WRPGs I've played. Although I would say that the original definer of the RPG genre was Ultima 3.

 

[flintstryker]

Genre definers are games that basically created a genre imo games whose elements you will see being used in games years after its release, it that regard i would call Super Mario Bros a genre definer.

 

[Vorador]

Unless, you know, you pretend that FFVII had no influence or impact whatsoever and just had high sales.

No, it had impact alright. And i loved the game when it went out, it was nothing like i played before (being in europe didn't help).

But i keep stressing the real meaning of "defining a genre". If you look to previous titles of the franchise or other japanese rpg franchises, there's very few things that stands on it's own as a representative of the RPG genre. Forget for a moment the "being released outside japan" thing, and check the impact of the game between japanese rpg players. I think it would be far lower than between NA or european gamers. How that would leave the whole "defining a genre" when most people will point the first game they played of that genre when asked.

Molyneux saying that he considers the game a "genre defining title" for him is alright, but it shows how few RPGs he has played considering that the genre existed far earlier than the existence of the Final Fantasy franchise.

EDIT: Basically it comes out to semantics. Urgh. I definitely leave at this point, this discussion is going nowhere.

 

[Yaweee]

Thread titles like this make me angry. There really should be a "... to me" up there.

There's no denying the impact that FF7, but that is still only one of many different types of RPGs.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Unfortunately, he's right.

 

[Shig]

I don't see how he's wrong. The vast majority of games in the RPG genre since FFVII have featured hugely padded lengths, two dimensional characters, boring gameplay, angsty protagonists, abrupt and nonsensical tonal shifts, unneccessary and awful mini-games, and superflous cinematics. The influence is clear as day.

Unfortunately, he's right.

My compliments for summing it up much more succinctly.

 

[sprsk]

No matter what you think about FF7 there is absolutely no doubt that FF7 was a monumental part of game history and pretty much changed JRPG's forever.

Still hate it though.

 

[DrPirate]

It definitely defined the RPG genre for me. So I would agree with him.

 

[inner-G]

Dragon Quest says hi.

 

[Monroeski]

Dragon Quest says hi.

Final Fantasy 7 says "Dragon Quest changed after I came out just like everything else."

 

[yella]

I can't argue with him as I know quite a few people who got into RPGs after FFVII; however, since it is his opinion, I'd say it's still fairly subjective.

I also know a few other people who got into RPGs because of Chrono Trigger (I was one of them); to me and IMO, I find that game to be more genre-defining than FFVII.

However, I must accept the fact that it did change the way cinematic presentation was handled in RPGs, so I'll give him a pass.

 

[Darkpen]

Is this why Fable sucked so bad?

Spoiler

lolololololol

No, seriously, Fable's opening hour of gameplay, its the most generic shit ever. Young protagonist lives in a happy little village, young protagonist looks away for a few mere seconds, turns around, and BAM, WHOLE FUCKING THING IN BLAZES! Protagonist is then whisked away, and some shit happens that involves an adventure.

Just... seriously. Really? Yes, FF7 defined the RPG genre for an entire generation of gamers, and turned it into a massively popular genre, thanks to eyecandy. But just how much of that actually influenced Molyneux? Not so much, I think.

 

[NolbertoS]

Wow..I can sense a great disturbance in the GAF game force between fanboys. Peter Molyneux opened up a huge can of worms here. But he's on the right track, maybe the interviewer somewhat baited him, but FFVII was the RPG that made the genre popular to the modern masses. Before than, I recall that any FF game was only bought by a niche market, including myself. After FFVII happened, RPG's became a "cool" thing to play and buy.

 

[Kandrick]

Did he say that when he was coming home from the pub ?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Final Fantasy 7 says "Dragon Quest changed after I came out just like everything else."

Did it? I must have missed that.

Anyway, it's the guy's personal opinion. I don't see how there's anything worth arguing here. Pretty sure the only person that can establish genre definitions for Peter Molyneux is Peter Molyneux.

 

[NolbertoS]

Final Fantasy 7 says "Dragon Quest changed after I came out just like everything else."

Uhmm..no it didn't..DQVII was traditional pseudo 3-D classic DQ. DQVIII was fully 3-D because it had to get with the times, not cuz of FFVII. DQ is and will always retain classic archaic RPG elements that make it fun.

 

[soldat7]

The RPG genre was defined well before FFVII. Sorry Peter.

Like BASF, FFVII just made the genre better.

 

[Pureauthor]

Final Fantasy 7 says "Dragon Quest changed after I came out just like everything else."

... I'm... not seeing it.

 

[pswii60]

its amazing so many people don't know what genre-defining means

It's amazing so many people don't bother to read what exactly Peter Molyneux actually fucking said in the first place.

 

[Pellham]

:lol @ Molyneux's retarded comment.

Like BASF, FFVII just made the genre better.

Haha no.

ust... seriously. Really? Yes, FF7 defined the RPG genre for an entire generation of gamers, and turned it into a massively popular genre, thanks to eyecandy. But just how much of that actually influenced Molyneux? Not so much, I think.

Yeah, the eye candy must be Molyneaux's point, because Fable and FF7 are nothing alike. one game is about being able to do what you want (Fable) while the other is about being strung along some linear path in an interactive anime (FF7) that just happens to have the same old RPG battles and leveling. And unfortunately most (non PC) gamers like the latter since they can't handle real RPGs.

 

[Brandon F]

FF7r outsourced to Lionhead Confirmed!!! Xbox360 exclusive!!!

Shit just got real...

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

It definitely defined the RPG genre for me. So I would agree with him.

same here.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

He's talking about his own personal experience as a gamer.

There are seriously people here who are going to stand up and tell Peter Molyneux that, in fact, he is mistaken as to the game he thought *personally* defined RPGs for him?

 

[PixelJunkie]

Well it did for most of the west to be fair.

Not really West and Eastern RPGs are pretty radically different, although I think it did open up (J)RPGs to the mainstream if that is what you mean. That had more to do with Sony's aggressive advertisement for the game though.

FF7 did a lot right and a lot wrong.

 

[Kyoufu]

The only reason people hate FFVII is because of the kid fans who cream over Sephiroth and Cloud. The fact of the matter is FFVII at the time was a genre ball busting RPG that not only brought in a new generation of gamers giving the genre mainstream appeal but it also set standards in the interactive movie/book genre. If that isn't genre-defining then I don't know what is.

Of course, I always preferred Panzer Dragoon Saga, but hey its all good. I just wish Molyneux would make a good game. Fable sucked lol.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

The only reason people hate FFVII is because of the kid fans who cream over Sephiroth and Cloud. The fact of the matter is FFVII at the time was a genre ball busting RPG that not only brought in a new generation of gamers giving the genre mainstream appeal but it also set standards in the interactive movie/book genre. If that isn't genre-defining then I don't know what is.

Of course, I always preferred Panzer Dragoon Saga, but hey its all good. I just wish Molyneux would make a good game. Fable sucked lol.

I submit that there are other valid reasons to dislike FF7.

 

[ChoklitReign]

He has a point - FFVII popularized cosplay and Japanophilia.

 

[Kyoufu]

I submit that there are other valid reasons to dislike FF7.

EXPLAIN YOURSELF!

 

[SomeDude]

It pretty much did for alot of people. There is a reason why this game along with OoT still continues to nearly dominate many "Favorite Games of All Time" list, despite the fact that these games are about a decade old. They were both groundbreaking games for their time.

 

[Vorador]

He has a point - FFVII popularized cosplay and Japanophilia.

And it was the first step in the "Nomura infection" of the entire Square-enix lineup.

Belts and zippers, BELTS AND ZIPPERS. Lulz

*jumps back to lurking*

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

EXPLAIN YOURSELF!

I think it suffers from a really unlikeable hero (even more unlikeable now that Zack showed everyone how it's done) and as per usual for a Final Fantasy, the story completely collapses towards the end. I still think it's in the upper half of the FF series, but I can certainly understand people disliking it, for a variety of reasons.

And yeah, I think as you mentioned the fanbase is *one* of those reasons.

 

[RockmanWhore]

Oblivion defined wRPG for me.

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm a little late to the party

 

[callous]

I'd up him one and claim that it pretty much still defines the genre.