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for you guys that like numbers, MS in deep red

Mojovonio

Banned
MS 1.26B in the red since launch

Earlier this week, an interview with Microsoft COO Kevin Turner affirmed that Microsoft is willing to stay the course with its videogame business, despite the fact that it hasn’t been profitable on an annual basis since the original Xbox launched in 2001.

For some, the reaction to the interview was surely, “’Duh.’ Of course Microsoft plans to stick with the Xbox business.” That reaction stems from the fact that it’s easy to see Microsoft’s successes as the lone next generation console on the market. The games library is good, upcoming titles are looking great, Xbox Live is a robust service with many appealing features and Microsoft is insistent that it will move 10 million hardware units by the end of the year.

But all of these successes and admirable plans have come at great expense—greater than Microsoft had expected initially. For fiscal year 2005, Microsoft’s home and entertainment division posted a $485 million net loss.

After its third fiscal quarter ended March 31, 2006, when Microsoft posted a $388 million operating loss for its home and entertainment division, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer issued an internal e-mail that stated, “…The cost of producing Xbox 360 consoles was higher than expected...”

In fiscal 2006, ended June 30, 2006, the division lost $1.26 billion, mainly due to Xbox 360 launch expenses.

Of course, these losses represent investment—heavy investment that Microsoft hopes to turn into profit by fiscal 2008, the target date that Robbie Bach said the home and entertainment division would become profitable.

The question is, how much loss is too much? Microsoft’s resources for supporting the Xbox 360 business seem unlimited, as other profitable divisions rake in the dough. But what would it take for Microsoft to throw in the towel?

Xbox as a defensive maneuver

We posed that question to company-specific research firm Directions on Microsoft analyst Matt Rosoff. His answer in short:

“I don’t know.”

Still, he explained his uncertainty. “Remember that Microsoft partly entered the game console business for defensive reasons,” Rosoff said. “The company was concerned that a PlayStation successor would become the default gateway to networked entertainment in the home—Ken Kutaragi promised as much—and cut into consumer PC sales.”

He continued, “It's very hard to calculate the worth of a defensive business. I personally think Sony will have a really hard time with the PS3—fewer games at launch, $200 price premium, and yet they're losing more money per console than Microsoft is on the 360. More long-term, imagine no PlayStation 4 and how Microsoft might profit from such an environment.”

So according to Rosoff, one of the main rewards that the Xbox business can provide Microsoft is the ability to block Sony’s encroachment on the living room and PC sales, the software for which is Microsoft’s bread and butter. The value of these areas seems immeasurable to Microsoft, so it’s no wonder the company wants to stick with the Xbox business despite its steep near-term costs.

’08 the magic number?

But why is Microsoft saying that fiscal 2008 will be the coveted time by which the home and entertainment division will be profitable? After all, according to Directions on Microsoft, the company previously said that the division would be profitable by the beginning of fiscal 2007, which began in July. The company missed that goal by a long shot (see the aforementioned $1.26 billion loss).

Again, heavy investment in the Xbox 360 in the face of the PS3 combined with faith in the first-mover advantage drove spending to high levels.

“First, they accelerated production of Xbox 360 consoles when they found out that the PS3 would be late, in order to reach their goal of being the first console in this generation to reach 10 million sales,” explained Rosoff. “So, because production was frontloaded, costs hadn't come down as quickly as expected in fiscal ‘07. Second, the home and entertainment group was starting up at least one business—Zune—that Microsoft hadn't anticipated when they made the fiscal ‘07 prediction.”

The 10 million unit race

The large majority of spend has everything to do with Microsoft’s oft-mentioned race to 10 million Xbox 360s sold by year-end. Building loads of Xbox 360s at an estimated $125 loss each puts a bit of a dent in a company’s financials. Lazard Capital Markets analysts Colin Sebastian reminds us that once a really significant installed base is established for the Xbox 360, it’s all about software sales.

“I am not sure if the hardware will ever turn a profit for Microsoft or Sony," he said. "However, what the manufacturers can count on is an increasing contribution of royalties from third-party software sales, which is where the real profit potential lies. …With a high software tie ratio they can earn a significant return over the course of the five- to six-year cycle.”

Rosoff concurred: “Peter Moore and others at Microsoft believe that getting to 10 million first will ensure dominance through this generation of consoles. When you hit that number, you get more exclusives from third-party developers, more support for your from retailers, and so on, and that leads to more game sales. And, again, there's the defensive aspect to keep in mind.”

Xbox in context

Speaking of defense, Microsoft’s going to have to crank up its defense to ensure that profitability target. The market’s about to get pretty crowded with the additions of the Wii and PS3, and come mid-November, we’ll all get a perspective shift, and will be able to view the Xbox business in the context of an all-out next generation console war. We think Microsoft’s heavy investments will pay off, and we couldn’t be more excited about this upcoming three-way race.

And off we go!
 
MS games division....for a while there i thought something had happened :lol

This is normal, Sony is expecting to loose an even bigger ammount of money....and unlike MS, Sony isn't exactly in shape.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Wow, that's a lot of cash.

Still, I didn't expect MS to be profitable this time around. I expected them to cut into Sony's marketshare this gen and be in a better position to launch alongside them next generation with a better chance of being profitable.
 
I'd imagine all those reimbursements, shipping and handling costs, tech support personnel, repair technicians and replacement console contributed a lot to this.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Honest question, is this whole video game deal really worth it for MS? I mean, is pushing Sony out of the livingroom worth losing $6 billion, which could possibly keep increasing, and won't be paid off for several, several years to come?
 

Mojovonio

Banned
Oblivion said:
Honest question, is this whole video game deal really worth it for MS? I mean, is pushing Sony out of the livingroom worth losing $6 billion, which could possibly keep increasing, and won't be paid off for several, several years to come?

no, but imagine how shitty the industry would have been without MS? Do you really think Sony would be doing anything to move forward if it was just them and the GC?
 

X26

Banned
Having to constantly have broken consoels shipped to them, 'fixed', and shipped back must be really costing them as well. So this brings total Xbox loses to what, 5+ billion?
 
Jeff-DSA said:
Wow, that's a lot of cash.

Still, I didn't expect MS to be profitable this time around. I expected them to cut into Sony's marketshare this gen and be in a better position to launch alongside them next generation with a better chance of being profitable.
They'll profit in 2008. X360 hardware costs will decrease rapidly since MS owns the IC for both Xenon and Xenos and they'll start raking in the dough from the games. They stand to make more than the 1.26B they lost.
 

Mojovonio

Banned
X26 said:
Having to constantly have broken consoels shipped to them, 'fixed', and shipped back must be really costing them as well. So this brings total Xbox loses to what, 5+ billion?

pretty much. I can't wait to see the failure rate of the PS3 though. They've had more time to refine the hardware, and not rush it out of the door like MS did at least.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Mojovonio said:
no, but imagine how shitty the industry would have been without MS? Do you really think Sony would be doing anything to move forward if it was just them and the GC?

I'm not trying to root for one company or the other. Just talking about this thing from a business perspective.
 

Mato

Member
What's interesting is the fact that there's no way they will recoup those loses with the way 360 looks like it will do in the long run (not much differently than the original). I don't see them making money with the next xbox either unless it hits Plastation 2 levels of success.
 
X26 said:
Having to constantly have broken consoels shipped to them, 'fixed', and shipped back must be really costing them as well. So this brings total Xbox loses to what, 5+ billion?
Exaggerate much?
 

LJ11

Member
Oblivion said:
Honest question, is this whole video game deal really worth it for MS? I mean, is pushing Sony out of the livingroom worth losing $6 billion, which could possibly keep increasing, and won't be paid off for several, several years to come?

They're sitting on 34 billion in cash, they need to show investors that they intend to do something with the money. MS doesn't intend on increasing their dividend or buy back shares. In order to justify holding all this money to shareholders, they need to reinvest the money in "new opportunities."
 

Mojovonio

Banned
Oblivion said:
I'm not trying to root for one company or the other. Just talking about this thing from a business perspective.

no, i know. but as a gamer, you should be happy they came in. wether you like MS or not, everyone should agree that they were a great catalyst in the industry.

too bad they're not making any money off it.
 

Not a Jellyfish

but I am a sheep
Merovingian said:
MS games division....for a while there i thought something had happened :lol

This is normal, Sony is expecting to loose an even bigger ammount of money....and unlike MS, Sony isn't exactly in shape.

thank you i like you. Sony is so much of a worse financial state than MS and stands to loose even more. MS is still trying to establish a brand they can take hardware hits as long as they move software.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
TobitheCat said:
They'll profit in 2008. X360 hardware costs will decrease rapidly since MS owns the IC for both Xenon and Xenos and they'll start raking in the dough from the games. They stand to make more than the 1.26B they lost.

Hopefully, but that's assuming that they can get things rolling and meet their sales goals. I'm not saying that it's not going to happen, but it's not a guarantee either.
 

Not a Jellyfish

but I am a sheep
Mojovonio said:
no, i know. but as a gamer, you should be happy they came in. wether you like MS or not, everyone should agree that they were a great catalyst in the industry.

too bad they're not making any money off it.

no one really makes any money except nintendo because there cost are so low. It takes years to make money in this business. with the new consoles they will most likely post losses for a good 2 years. no big deal.
 

Mojovonio

Banned
Dahbomb said:
I really don't understand this mentality of reaching 10 million consoles first = winning next-gen.

exactly, wouldn't game sales stand to make MS ore money than console sales, since they lose money on each console, and from I remember, the 360 has a crazy high attach rate.
 

Aisenherz

Banned
Merovingian said:
MS games division....for a while there i thought something had happened :lol

This is normal, Sony is expecting to loose an even bigger ammount of money....and unlike MS, Sony isn't exactly in shape.
But SONY will sell alot aaaaaalot more PS3s
 

Skilotonn

xbot xbot xbot xbot xbot
Jeez... I don't give a damn about sales figures, and even I knew this was posted here ages ago... I actually thought this was new...

This is the H&E division, not MS on a whole... I thought for a sec that they started giving away their billions of reserves or something...

Ofcourse they lost so much - they are still "new", they have the muscle to sell at a loss, unlike the competition, and the 360 launched about a year ago, which of course costed a hell of alot as every new console does in the beginning...

When Sony launches, will it be all smiles and giggles when they post a loss too, or will it be all logical and stuff for them to be at a loss with a new console? Nintendo looks to be selling at a profit with that hardware so I assume it won't be the same for them...

Can't believe stuff like this gets alot of you happy and excited...
 

bill0527

Member
Aisenherz said:
But SONY will sell alot aaaaaalot more PS3s

Then that means Sony will lose aaaaaaaaalot more money because of the fact they're taking an even bigger hammering per console than Microsoft is.
 

vitaflo

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
Wow, that's a lot of cash.

Still, I didn't expect MS to be profitable this time around. I expected them to cut into Sony's marketshare this gen and be in a better position to launch alongside them next generation with a better chance of being profitable.

Just goes to show you how much money they have from other areas when you can lose billions hand over fist for two generations and stay afloat. In the end this actually ends up being good for gamers.

People wonder why Nintendo makes such weird decisions, but it's because they have to. They couldn't take a hit like MS has and stay afloat. They have to turn a profit consistantly.
 

stressboy

Member
Skilotonn said:
Can't believe stuff like this gets alot of you happy and excited...

Fanboys love to see their favorite consoles competitors lose something, whether it is money, marketshare, exclusives. Xbots, Nintards, and sonyfags are all guilty of it. I often think they hate the competition more than they love their favorite console.
 

Nicktals

Banned
vitaflo said:
Just goes to show you how much money they have from other areas when you can lose billions hand over fist for two generations and stay afloat. In the end this actually ends up being good for gamers.

People wonder why Nintendo makes such weird decisions, but it's because they have to. They couldn't take a hit like MS has and stay afloat. They have to turn a profit consistantly.

It's impressive how competitive/successful they stay with this severe disadvantage.
 

elostyle

Never forget! I'm Dumb!
vitaflo said:
People wonder why Nintendo makes such weird decisions, but it's because they have to. They couldn't take a hit like MS has and stay afloat. They have to turn a profit consistantly.
They could, they could.

But why bother to stay afloat when you could instead be cruising in a huge yacht like nintendo does?
 

MoxManiac

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
Wow, that's a lot of cash.

Still, I didn't expect MS to be profitable this time around. I expected them to cut into Sony's marketshare this gen and be in a better position to launch alongside them next generation with a better chance of being profitable.

Wasn't that their goal last gen?
 
I doubt MS will ever make a single net dollar on Xbox.

Last generation they were 5 billion in the hole already... and that is with accounting that lumps in other profitable divisions masking the larger loss they're actually taking.

Just look back at some of Sony and Nintendo's most dominating years profit wise... reaching even a billion is extremely rare. MS is likely to see some billions more in losses before they can even begin to think about digging themselves out of this hole. It's an astronomically uphill fight.

Not to mention with the business model PS3 and 360 tend to follow, they require sheer dominance to produce profit, unlike Nintendo. I don't think anyone is predicting all out dominance for 360 anytime soon (though due to some precautions it shouldn't be AS much of a money sink, keeping all other things equal... and it should most certainly perform better... but 5 billion better? No)
 
Mojovonio said:
no, i know. but as a gamer, you should be happy they came in. wether you like MS or not, everyone should agree that they were a great catalyst in the industry.

too bad they're not making any money off it.

no...things move forward anyway...I mean microsoft is hardly known as a catalyst....check windows for instance...if you mean they bought in the internet architecture, that would have happened anyway....do you really think the industry has progressed that much...I mean we were looking at VR ten years ago, and that still hasnt come about....Im satisfied with whats happening...but Iexpected bigger things initially...I think the progression has been linear...Anyway no doubt each company bought there own slant..no doubt sony had to respond to ms prescence...but its just normal business....the changes that came werent all that radical

peace
 
Like the analyst in that article said, whether or not the 360 makes money is irrelevent to MS - it's all about protecting Windows (and to a lesser extent, the PC). They were afraid that a PS3 being a "computer" not just a game console would hurt their OS sales. Which is almost pure profit.

Probably not a realistic fear, but a possiblity MS had to guard against.
 

M3wThr33

Banned
vitaflo said:
Just goes to show you how much money they have from other areas when you can lose billions hand over fist for two generations and stay afloat. In the end this actually ends up being good for gamers.

People wonder why Nintendo makes such weird decisions, but it's because they have to. They couldn't take a hit like MS has and stay afloat. They have to turn a profit consistantly.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
Have you even seen DS sales data lately

Hell, right now Nintendo could release the Virtual Boy 2 AND 3 and still be sitting pretty.
 

PistolGrip

sex vacation in Guam
My Arms Your Hearse said:
I doubt MS will ever make a single net dollar on Xbox.

Last generation they were 5 billion in the hole already... and that is with accounting that lumps in other profitable divisions masking the larger loss they're actually taking.

Just look back at some of Sony and Nintendo's most dominating years profit wise... reaching even a billion is extremely rare. MS is likely to see some billions more in losses before they can even begin to think about digging themselves out of this hole. It's an astronomically uphill fight.

Not to mention with the business model PS3 and 360 tend to follow, they require sheer dominance to produce profit, unlike Nintendo. I don't think anyone is predicting all out dominance for 360 anytime soon (though due to some precautions it shouldn't be AS much of a money sink, keeping all other things equal... and it should most certainly perform better... but 5 billion better? No)


Well considering they are doing this so that gaming on the PC stays alive and that the PS3 doesn't take chip away at the home desktop market. The primary reason people buy a windows PCs for their home over MACs or Linux PCs is gaming. Sony with it's linux adoption and OpenGL can put a bit of a dent on MSs cash cow OS and development tools.

MS is in this thing to lose money simply to safeguard their main business. It's all about mindshare. Living room PCs, Linux and OpenGL are what they are fighting. Kind makes you realize why they could care less about Nintendo products.
 
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