Spider_Jerusalem
Member
:lol :lol :lolMojovonio said:
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for you guys that like numbers, MS in deep red
- Thread starter Mojovonio
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Earthstrike
Member
Onix said:
Yep, so lets see here, we're going to take 5 billion as a percentage of 12 trillion O.K?
Wow that .42% of their total profit for one year.
Now Lets take Sony's total cash reserves which is about 24 billion multiply by .42 and see what number we get 100 million.
So sony needs to have thier losses for this quarter be less than 100 million in order for anyone to argue that Sony is in a better financial state that microsoft (which is still laughable BTW)
Like you posted four consecutive times as if defending Sony in some quixotic rage. God, someone get this guy a Sony Custom Defense Force title.
fortified_concept
Banned
Earthstrike said:
what
what
what
Drek said:
It'll be a sad day if that happens.
Not because I'm a die-hard Xbot. I'm a multi-console gamer and I will own a PS3, probably next Spring.
The reason that it'll be sad if that happens is because many so-called gamers will have never really given Xbox a good try.
If that happens, it'll just further re-inforce my belief that I'm not really surrounded by actual gamers on the message boards, but instead, surrounded by a bunch of corporate shills.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
Damn the fanboys are going nuts tonight.
Simple matter is, the one here that has the most to lose is Sony. Sure MS posted a loss, but that's to be expected. Sony will as well.
Nintendo is riding high here and has certainly sealed Japan with DS, and Wii looks very promising. That and the fact that they're going to post a profit at launch is rediculous. MS isn't dependent on the Xbox brand to survive as a company. They're using it as a safeguard. They can afford to keep it afloat.
Sony has a ton riding on the PS3. If they fail, they're in big trouble. Even losing a bunch of marketshare to the point where overall sales ratio between the big three isn't so drastic is bad for Sony. Sony needs the dominance to stay afloat, to operate well, to invest higher into next gen.
MS can afford to wait and do what they've done in the past and bleed their competition dry over the long haul. Can Sony afford to pop out a PS4 5-6 years down the road with the same amount of funding MS can? Hell, when PS3 is 4-5 years in and establishing a consistency, MS could already be on the brink of XGen3's release. They want PS3 to be a long term platform, but they may be forced again to cut that short.
Some of you guys need to take a look past the immediate future and think about the possibilities of Sony being a non-factor in 1 to 2 gens. If MS can continue to keep them on their toes and rush, they may not be able to keep up.
Just something to ponder a bit over.
Simple matter is, the one here that has the most to lose is Sony. Sure MS posted a loss, but that's to be expected. Sony will as well.
Nintendo is riding high here and has certainly sealed Japan with DS, and Wii looks very promising. That and the fact that they're going to post a profit at launch is rediculous. MS isn't dependent on the Xbox brand to survive as a company. They're using it as a safeguard. They can afford to keep it afloat.
Sony has a ton riding on the PS3. If they fail, they're in big trouble. Even losing a bunch of marketshare to the point where overall sales ratio between the big three isn't so drastic is bad for Sony. Sony needs the dominance to stay afloat, to operate well, to invest higher into next gen.
MS can afford to wait and do what they've done in the past and bleed their competition dry over the long haul. Can Sony afford to pop out a PS4 5-6 years down the road with the same amount of funding MS can? Hell, when PS3 is 4-5 years in and establishing a consistency, MS could already be on the brink of XGen3's release. They want PS3 to be a long term platform, but they may be forced again to cut that short.
Some of you guys need to take a look past the immediate future and think about the possibilities of Sony being a non-factor in 1 to 2 gens. If MS can continue to keep them on their toes and rush, they may not be able to keep up.
Just something to ponder a bit over.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i dont even know why sony is brought into this thread.
oh wait, never mind, i do.
oh wait, never mind, i do.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
davepoobond said:
I only spoke about it because it was already brought up.
You know gaf though, it was inevitable from the beginning.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Tenacious-V said:
it wasn't particularly in reference to you. its like the 2nd post where its brought up ::roll eyes::
"microsoft is in the red with the xbox"
"YEAH WELL SONY HAS MORE TO LOSE"
::roll eyes::
Lets see:
1) M$ lost $6 Billion from H & E during the Xbox's 6 years of existence. That's comes out to be $1 billion a year.
2) During the same 6 years, M$ average around $10 Billion per year or $60 Billion total in profits.
For simple sake, lets put all the H & E division losses on the Xbox. W/o these losses, M$ would have made $11 Billion or 9% more per year. Was M$ smart to spend 9% to 1) protect their core business (Windows & Office) and 2) maybe expand into a new market? Think, answer is a no brainer.
Now, if Sony or Nintendo were to loose $1 Billion per year, that would be a total different story given it's their core / main business.
Can't wait until we discuss this again in a few weeks / months.
1) M$ lost $6 Billion from H & E during the Xbox's 6 years of existence. That's comes out to be $1 billion a year.
2) During the same 6 years, M$ average around $10 Billion per year or $60 Billion total in profits.
For simple sake, lets put all the H & E division losses on the Xbox. W/o these losses, M$ would have made $11 Billion or 9% more per year. Was M$ smart to spend 9% to 1) protect their core business (Windows & Office) and 2) maybe expand into a new market? Think, answer is a no brainer.
Now, if Sony or Nintendo were to loose $1 Billion per year, that would be a total different story given it's their core / main business.
Can't wait until we discuss this again in a few weeks / months.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
knitoe said:
are we forgetting that Sony has like a bajillion other businesses?
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
davepoobond said:
A lof of which are bloated and not doing well. Which is why they're consolidating a ton of them. Leaving a lot of markets, as well as hiring a guy atypical of Sony leadership to put them back on track.
Believe it or not, Sony is taking a massive gamble with PS3, and if it doesn't pay off, they're in a lot of shit.
fortified_concept
Banned
Tenacious-V said:
I like how you're certain that MS can afford bleeding money forever. I wonder though why don't they drop X360's price or why their accessories are such ripoffs if they're so confortable losing money. Or why they don't spend all these bazillions they spent on advertizing the original Xbox. I mean why would the investors care that MS is losing billions on a certain department, right? It's not like these people are greedy and will eventually lose their patience and trust on this product...
Vigo the Carpathian
Banned
davepoobond said:
Oh you remind me of Tommy Pickles when you say bajillion. Precious.
firefoxsux
Banned
m$ make fanboyz scared.
tee hehe
tee hehe
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
fortified_concept said:
I never said forever. Don't put words in my mouth. I stated MS has the financial backing to outlast Sony. If things continue at the pace they are going, and MS/Sony are competing directly as they are, MS will outlive Sony. In a waiting game, MS will win. They have a huge reserve and can fall back on other massively profitable sectors. Can Sony do that as well? No, they're banking on PS3 and it's Blu-Ray for a 1-2 punch. If that falters, what's to fall back on?
It's obvious they're going to charge the absolute most they can get away with for things, any company would. MS is no different in this regard. Just because they can afford to lose money doesn't mean they want to. It's the simple fact that they have the capability to support an unprofitable sector, a luxory Sony doesn't have.
They care, but look at the bigger picture. You're thinking to narrowly. What is the Xbox brand? It's not just a competing console, it's protection of their bread and butter. Windows and the PC business. Yeah, they're losing billions on Xbox, but they're protecting a substantially more important business.
If you take that into consideration, you can see why MS is willing to fund it. You can also see why MS may have they upper hand over Sony here, even if they're nowhere near the market dominance the PS brand holds. If they can slowly chip away at the mindshare and userbase of Sony, all the better. If they keep investing huge into each gen, Sony will have to keep up. Each time, if Sony isn't quite as successful as previous, they lose their edge. Eventually MS bleeds them dry.
I'm not trying to be some doombringer, I'm trying to just give a different perspective here.
Microsoft just gave over $40 billion in cash back to investors in a massive dividend (last year, IIRC) because they had built up more cash than they could invest, over $65 billion at the time. Having nine more would not help their investment strategy one bit. Would be nice for investors, and I'm not downplaying the size, just pointing out that when you have $40 billion in cash you kick back to investors, some extra does not impact your investment strategy.knitoe said:Lets see:
1) M$ lost $6 Billion from H & E during the Xbox's 6 years of existence. That's comes out to be $1 billion a year.
2) During the same 6 years, M$ average around $10 Billion per year or $60 Billion total in profits.
For simple sake, lets put all the H & E division losses on the Xbox. W/o these losses, M$ would have made $11 Billion or 9% more per year. Was M$ smart to spend 9% to 1) protect their core business (Windows & Office) and 2) maybe expand into a new market? Think, answer is a no brainer.
Now, if Sony or Nintendo were to loose $1 Billion per year, that would be a total different story given it's their core / main business.
Can't wait until we discuss this again in a few weeks / months.
Also, we'll be discussing this again next week, when MS reports their next quarterly earnings.
Edit: the week after next.
http://www.microsoft.com/msft/default.mspx
I'm actually surprised this discussion is going on now, since it's all old data.
Vigo the Carpathian
Banned
GhaleonEB said:
It's a FUD campaign, does it really matter?
POTENTIAL!!
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3989&Itemid=2
fortified_concept
Banned
Tenacious-V said:
The way things are going I don't see Sony going anywhere the next years so MS would have to keep losing money for a lot of time to come (especially if they have sales close to the original Xbox).
That argument would stand if MS had succeeded its original goal of selling 100 million xboxs. It's not just that MS is losing money on Xbox and now X360 it's that it's not succeeding its goal of stoping Playstation of taking over the living room entertainment and everything that goes with it. So what's the reason of losing all these billion if the original goal isn't met?
Everyone seems to talk about how the Playstation brand is so strong. How did it get to be that way? First off, Sony already had a large presence in the consumer electronics space, so it seemed logical to extend this to their gaming platform. They spent a lot of money getting it started and limited their revenue by undercutting the competition's price ($299 console, $39 games).
Microsoft has made similar investments into their Xbox brand. Being that Microsoft is primarily a software company, they had to put a lot of money into their platform to even get it off the ground. They also made some mistakes as they learned what it takes to make it in this business. While not as many consumers own their platforms, the awareness and mindshare is there.
Think about this: How much is the Xbox brand worth, in dollars? I think it would be nearly impossible for any other company to buy it and be successful as they have, with the way that they have run their business and the strategies they have employed. But if MS had to put a dollar amount on what they feel it is worth to them, I'd imagine it would be much greater than the losses they've incurred to this point, or else they wouldn't still be in this business.
Microsoft has made similar investments into their Xbox brand. Being that Microsoft is primarily a software company, they had to put a lot of money into their platform to even get it off the ground. They also made some mistakes as they learned what it takes to make it in this business. While not as many consumers own their platforms, the awareness and mindshare is there.
Think about this: How much is the Xbox brand worth, in dollars? I think it would be nearly impossible for any other company to buy it and be successful as they have, with the way that they have run their business and the strategies they have employed. But if MS had to put a dollar amount on what they feel it is worth to them, I'd imagine it would be much greater than the losses they've incurred to this point, or else they wouldn't still be in this business.
Vigo the Carpathian
Banned
GhaleonEB said:
Good stuff huh? They are setting themselves up as Sony's personal hit squad. I expect great threads linked to that site in the coming months.
Again, they are the ones that spread the 'news' that Dead Rising was killing X360's and that whole EA thing too.
And they ahd the exclusive info that 8.3 million want the PS3 at full price while only 800k want a 360.
Mithos Yggdrasill
Banned
I didn't know that this was the Microsoft's motivation to enter in the videogame industry.
Vigo the Carpathian
Banned
GhaleonEB said:
This just in, Microsoft won't give up on the Xbox 360!!!
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3963&Itemid=2
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
fortified_concept said:
The console arena is far more fickle than you think. Anything is possible. You seem too keen on thinking Sony is some unstoppable company. And MS is in a much better position this time around. They've got a name backing, they've got a console that will scale better price wise over time, and they've got much much better developer support. As well as an established online infrastructure. That as well as Sony no longer having a 20million user install base when it was introduced. You seem to think this gen will be a reflection of last gen. We'll see.
Once PS2 is gone, and this gen starts, it all starts anew. Funny thing these console gens huh? A new gen is a new opportunity. Sony could lose it all if they fudge it up, #1 isn't a guarantee. Sony is going to have it's work cut out for them just like Nintendo and MS. Only this time round MS is already there waiting, with cash reserves and the ability to counter anything Sony puts out.
You keep insinuating Sony = winner. I'm not arguing that. I'm trying to show that Sony = slowly being pushed into a corner. You have MS who will to do whatever it takes to protect themselves, and you have Nintendo on the other end who seems to be tossing all the right cards these days.
Vigo the Carpathian
Banned
DCharlie said:
Breaking news too.
Big Shirtless Ron
Member
haha, it's all a conspiracy.Vigo the Carpathian said:
edit: i'm laughing at your retarded conspiracy theories.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
leehom said:
yeah grow up junior.
If you wanna play, add to the game. One liners are pathetic.
Vigo the Carpathian
Banned
dai said:
HAHA welcome to the corperate world.
fortified_concept
Banned
GhaleonEB said:
Pretty much like 1up and their constant N64 - PS3 comparisons or Luke's "OMG that game doez not worth 600 DOLLARS!!!" motto etc. etc. etc. etc. Yet people keep quoting it.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
I put nex-gen and ko-taku along the same lines as *****. <--- you can figure that out.
fortified_concept
Banned
Tenacious-V said:
Nothing starts anew and MS knew that and that's why the spent all those billions promoting and supporting Xbox. To built a userbase for X360 and profit from it but they didn't succeed. Developer relations don't start anew, consumer loyalty remains the same and pretty much everything stays the same with small variations unless the competition screws up royally (and no the 100$ price difference is not a screw-up). And I don't see Sony slowly "pushed to the corner". With the exception of the price Sony is doing everything almost perfectly. They managed to have great 1st and 2nd party support on top of the amazing 3rd party support they have a console that has the best hardware and features compared to the competition and last but not least people have nothing but good impressions since TGS.
fortified_concept
Banned
DCharlie said:
Did you travel with the teamxbox correspondents team or something? Because almost every journalist in every mag and site had good words to say about PS3.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
fortified_concept said:
Not anew in a literal sense, don't be so black and white. I mean anew as in the gens userbase starts fresh. You don't seem to want to take into consideration that Sony at all could be in a not to perfect position.
Sony has done everything almost perfectly. I want to explore your mind for a day. Would be some trippy shit.
3rd party support isn't dominated by Sony like it used to be. MS has taken a ton of exclusives away. Software needs to prove itself each gen. What was hot last gen, may not be this.
And you keep taking this debate into a PS3 is winner direction. That's not what I'm trying to establish here. I'm not disputing Sony with the PS3 will win. I'm thinking much beyond that and farther into the future as well as not only limited to consoles.
You keep trying to argue with me that PS3 will win. I never said it wouldn't. I'm talking about way beyond that. PS4, PS5, Sony as a company can and may be way different than they are right now. If MS can keep the pressure on, and Nintendo keep doing what they do, Sony only has 1 choice and that's to blow our ****ing minds!! If they don't, MS will chip away, Nintendo will eat away, and Sony's not lookin hot.
MS can force the next-next gen to start quicker, like they did this gen. What next? Sony will have to step up again, and again. As I stated before, if they don't provide, MS wins by default. they can outbleed Sony. MS is willing to lose tons, to protect Windows. You keep disregarding my main points. It's not about who wins the console business, it's MS making sure Sony doesn't take away from their primary cash cow.
Is Sony expanding their business to profit from other markets? It seems to me they're consolidating everything. They have 1 chance to expand, Blu-Ray. If that fails, and no other markets open up for them, they've got Playstation. And if MS keeps bleeding them in that, and Nintendo keeps being Nintendo. Things start to come into perspective here.
But **** it, it's 3am and I have an 8:30 class. You don't seem to want to even consider anything I say. So be it. I just wanted to throw out a different picture to think about.
Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.
GhaleonEB said:
yeah *****, not ******!
fortified_concept
Banned
Tenacious-V said:
Please expand on this. Can you name the "tons" of 3rd party exclusives MS has "taken" from Sony? Because I only remember one (GTA). And how do you think they compare to the exclusive third party support Sony managed to "take" from MS like PC devs in general, Sega and Team Ninja support?
As for the rest I've already replied to most of it one way or another. The argument is getting circular.