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[PjotrStroganov]

Oh I thought they could do a firmware update or something.

They don't want to.

 

[dfyb]

Oh I thought they could do a firmware update or something.

well when i said it was a hardware issue, i was referring to the G25 hardware -- it is designed as a HID device and 360 only supports XID (MS proprietary format for 360 -- requires special hardware). microsoft could do a firmware update to support HID, but that would open it up to pretty much any usb controller (like PS3 is), and i think microsoft enjoys selling you their wheel and their controllers.

 

[*Guaraná]

i would love to use my G25 on F3. Come on MS...

 

[TwiztidElf]

I got a MS wheel for cheap and I'm really impressed by it so far.

You know what, my MS Wheel and Playseat combo roxxors, and is a far better setup than the huge number of fanboy bitches who preach G25, but practice joypad. (no diss to the real G25 users).

 

[bee]

Damn, hasn't been one like that since. I did hear a rumor that Papyrus may come back and do NASCAR now that EA forfeited the license though.

they already have, david kaemmer the main guy behind papyrus now runs iracing who have a proper nascar sanctioned race series, "only" 30 player though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EQrjj2I5Bo&fmt=22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGX8BfycNiY&fmt=22

 

[CrunchinJelly]

well when i said it was a hardware issue, i was referring to the G25 hardware -- it is designed as a HID device and 360 only supports XID (MS proprietary format for 360 -- requires special hardware). microsoft could do a firmware update to support HID, but that would open it up to pretty much any usb controller (like PS3 is), and i think microsoft enjoys selling you their wheel and their controllers.

...or Logitech could release an XID wheel.

It works both ways but no surprises which side you're on.

 

[skybaby]

...or Logitech could release an XID wheel.

It works both ways but no surprises which side you're on.

:lol

 

[Psychotext]

They're not just suddenly going to open up the console to any controllers, simply because companies paid good money for licences and MS would be in court the next day for making those licences worthless.

 

[dfyb]

...or Logitech could release an XID wheel.

It works both ways but no surprises which side you're on.

i was replying to this:

I want a G25 now...think it'll work on F3 by the time it releases?

it's quite clear that he's talking about getting an existing G25 now and hoping it's supported later, and not talking about waiting for logitech to make a new hypothetical G25 just for 360.

no surprises which argument you chose to make etc etc

 

[isamu]

Hey guys wassup



For those of you that are longing for a high quality FFB wheel for 360, there have some very interesting comments from Andy Cers, head of head ECCI, who makes the best of the best in quality wheels and pedals. He has been adamant about calling FFB effects in general a "gimmick", but it looks like he may finally be coming around.

And to those of you who consider the Logitech G25 the Holy Grail of FFB wheels, well, I'll just be polite and say you are very much mistaken. I own TWO FFB wheels, both of which put the G25 to shame. A Happ Controls wheel and a FrexJP wheel.

Anyway here is some of what Andy had to say on the subject of his new FFB wheel and why the G25 is nothing short of garbage:

But first, let's start off with a couple of pics of ECCI's wheel and pedal set:

(PS. I own the pedal set and they are nothing short of superb!)

As for FFB, ECCI has developed internally several generations of FFB prototypes since 2001. To this time we have not seen the business reality necessary to enable the deployment of a commerically viable production FFB unit. If we eventually do, it will be expensive - much more so than our current product line. Our expectation is that only a major quantity order from a commercial customer will make production feasible.

Ready to kill for an ECCI-quality FFB unit for PC and Xbox 360? We won't require the spilling of blood, but if you really want one THAT bad, it IS theoretically possible - with enough money.

Want a copy of our next commerical-duty FFB prototype? We expect the new version we have been working on will be ready in about six months - and it WILL be very expensive. Think well over TWICE the price of the TS6000(isamu note: he's talking somewhere in the neighborhood of $3000) Please don't send any emails to us asking about it unless you are REALLY serious about acquiring one. As this is only a prototype, it will require a substantial advance deposit.

A. Cers
ECCI

Hey wassup Andy :lol: :lol: :lol: Andy you ARE kidding right? It's just that those last couple of paragraphs had me laughing out loud so I'm not sure whether to take it sarcasm or not.

If you ARE serious, then all I can say is damn...I'm shocked. Thought you guys would've stuck to your guns and would have never even considered the possibility of FFB, regardless of the price, due to philosophical reasons. Why the change of heart?

To all:

It's true... only a large commerical order would make it financially feasible to go into production. When you make custom machined parts, ordering less than a hundred at a time makes them cost prohibitive per piece. And financing a hundred unit run of FFB wheels runs costs well into six figures. We would be happy to do it for anyone willing to guarantee they would buy at least fifty of them. With 50% cash up front that is.

Getting a clone of our latest prototype is actually a bargain - its real cost would be much more than you would actually have to pay.

As for a prototype being a bug-ridden kludge - that would describe our first attempt we made back in 2001. We are now generations of development past that. We believe our third generation prototype is the most accurate FFB wheel in existence. It is so accurate in its response that it can reveal the flaws in FFB software output.

This is one of the reasons we have not proceeded into production. We believe many would be disappointed - not in the wheel - but in how crude the FFB effects are in some software titles. Most of what we consider to be flaws are thus outside of our control. They are intrinsic to all FFB wheels.

This has improved over time as computers have gotten faster. The relative crudity of the Logitch G25 tends to mask FFB flaws. Ours lets them shine through perfectly in all their glory. We have discovered - much to our surprise - it is possible for a wheel to actually be TOO good(!).

So why are we doing a costly fourth generation FFB prototype right now? We have been commissioned and paid up front, by a long standing commercial customer, to construct a new production-ready prototype for evaluation by a customer of theirs. If they like it and order fifty, which IS potentially possible, then there may be an available ECCI FFB wheel in the future after all. But we are not going to abandon our fluid-damping for it. There may well be room for both especially considering the price difference.

And none of this is certain in this economy. We were at a similar point a year ago with a different commercial customer and it all came to nothing. So guys, don't be holding your breath!

A. Cers
ECCI

Isamu, it has never been a question of philosophy, but entirely one of pragmatic results. As I stated many moons and eons ago in an old thread on the topic, that we would never release a new wheel, that we ourselves would NOT choose to purchase over our existing product.

Are we close now? I would say yes, but flaws remain outside of our control. One of them is that iRacing's FFB model leaves a lot to be desired when you drive it with a high-fidelity FFB wheel. But Sim Bin has it dicked hands down, so I believe iRacing will eventually improve theirs. But you would never know it if all you used was a G25.

The one element of our core philosophy that has always applied to our business, is our drive to achieve "transparency of control" - the ability of the driving system to "disappear" when racing - so the driver can remain entirely focused on the car and the race. FFB flaws and artificial artifacts distract from this transparency. That being said, we have developed a mechanism that provides modest mechanical damping to smooth out such flaws, but that still remains an issue.

A. Cers
ECCI

P.S. Isamu, are we still only months away from Outrun 2006 Coast to Coast? Call me a cynic, but hey - vaporware exists! LMAO! :lol:

So you're saying that your prototype FFB wheel is better than a G25, but the FFB on G25 feels better because the wheel is worse?

To be clear - our most recent prototype wheel is more accurate in responding to force signals. The G25 wheel is more crude in construction and this masks the effect flaws in some software titles. Whether that is better or worse is up to the user and the software being used.

In iRacing, the G25 feels fine. But when we fire up our wheel in it, what distracts are the abrupt effect changes around center and other anomalies. The G25 does not communicate these anomalies for its construction is far looser and it response more coarse. That is the best way I can describe it.

Now in SimBin titles, these anomalies around center do not exist. Thus it is not a property of our wheel, it is a software issue.

A. Cers
ECCI

 

[Woo-Fu]

...or Logitech could release an XID wheel.

Logitech makes a 360-compatible wheel, it just isn't the G25. Microsoft chose the proprietary peripheral route and are reaping their just desserts.

 

[saladine1]

So I went down to Bathurst (Sydney Australia) today to see if I can stir up some of the locals about whether there has been any kind of 'gaming people' who have come down to do some private testing and stuff.

I was directed to this guy who happens to do some track work(Security) during various race meets.

Turns out that there was a group of "Yanks" who were here some time ago taking pictures and videos. They were also using "Measuring Tape"..

I asked if there were any cars being tested during their stay and he replied..
"Yeh, they were driving the old Peter Brock HDT cars and the old Toranas, Falcons and some newer cars.

Now granted, this guy had a stubbie in his hand and looked a little shabby but for him to pretty much describe the same process as Turn 10's track analysis and testing, I'm inclined to believe him.

If it's true though...wow, Bathurst and the old Aussie icons..bloody awesome.

For the uninitiated..

HDT VC BROCK COMMODORE

HDT VK SS GROUP A

HOLDEN GTR TORANA XU1

HOLDEN HT MONARO GTS

FORD FALCON XY GT PHASE 3

FORD XC COBRA

PETER BROCK AUSSIE LEGEND

 

[Router]

words words words...

Bathurst in this would be freaking amazing. Even putting the Blue Mountains track from FM1 up as DLC would be amazing.

V8 Supercars in FM3? Even better.

Old Aussie Muscle Cars in? Dear God. I don't even want to think about that possibility. If they were not in the final game then I would be so damn sad.

Looking forward to some announcements from the TURN10 team.

 

[amar212]

And to those of you who consider the Logitech G25 the Holy Grail of FFB wheels...

Hey Isamu, just one simple questin dear friend:

What are the RSP prices of those 2 wheels you have?

If I remember well, Frex combo (wheelbase, pedals, wheel adapter, actual wheel, etc.) costs around 4000$ (words: four thousand) for the whole package.

I do not know the price for you other wheel, but G25 cost less than 300 euros (400$).

I think it is actualy a Holy Grail when price is put into perspective

 

[AMUSIX]

whole bunch of words and damn awesome cars including this one:
HOLDEN HT MONARO GTS

I would be so freaking thrilled at this. Unfortunately, you're Saladine, which means, on initial blush, it all comes off as bullshit.

Oh well...still would be a great track to have.

 

[op_ivy]

I would be so freaking thrilled at this. Unfortunately, you're Saladine, which means, on initial blush, it all comes off as bullshit.

Oh well...still would be a great track to have.

:lol

 

[Diablohead]

I never brought the racing seat and MS wheel I was after (lost the ebay bid) but I am thinking about picking up the logitech wheel with the rumble driven FF or whatever it is, did a google search and read some feedback and reviews on the wheel and for the asking price of £25 it sounds rather sweet, good build quality and nice feel to the wheel grip.

 

[Yazus]

I demand Alfa Romeo Brera/8C to be in this game (Maybe Alfa Romeo GT) because they are fucking beautiful

 

[eso76]

I demand Alfa Romeo Brera/8C to be in this game (Maybe Alfa Romeo GT) because they are fucking beautiful

wish granted

(it's in the trailer btw )

 

[proposition]

I demand Alfa Romeo Brera/8C to be in this game (Maybe Alfa Romeo GT) because they are fucking beautiful

If the Brera is in the game I will buy Forza 3 as wank-fodder.

 

[Wired]

I never brought the racing seat and MS wheel I was after (lost the ebay bid) but I am thinking about picking up the logitech wheel with the rumble driven FF or whatever it is, did a google search and read some feedback and reviews on the wheel and for the asking price of £25 it sounds rather sweet, good build quality and nice feel to the wheel grip.

If I'm not totally mistaken it has no FF at all, just rumble.

 

[isamu]

Hey Isamu, just one simple questin dear friend:

What are the RSP prices of those 2 wheels you have?

If I remember well, Frex combo (wheelbase, pedals, wheel adapter, actual wheel, etc.) costs around 4000$ (words: four thousand) for the whole package.

I do not know the price for you other wheel, but G25 cost less than 300 euros (400$).

I think it is actualy a Holy Grail when price is put into perspective

Hey wassup Amar.

Yeah you're right man, I think I've been too harsh on the G25. For the price it's a darn good wheel. It's just that I've always disliked gear driven wheels. Just a personal taste thing, not a huge deal. You should check out the JL-G25 mod from Jo Leug. G25 modded to be belt driven and is said to be a helluva lot smoother. I might check it out.

But to answer your question, the Happ wheel is $286USD and the Frex wheel is around $1800. Neither of which come with pedals so just keep that in mind Frex does sell some pretty cool pedals though. Just that I prefer the ECCI and CST pedals I already own.

My only dissapointment with the Frex is that it's for PC only. But hopefully Shige-san will develop a driver for either console some day. Gotta admit I want to play Forza III now

 

[Router]

Well it stand to reason that the more money you pay the better the wheel

I would love to get the FREX wheel (used one a few times with R Factor and fell in love). I'd rather be spending 2-4 grand on my real car though.

I have both the G25 and the MS wheel at the moment. Love the G25. I payed $60 for the MS wheel and for that price is great.

 

[isamu]

I have both the G25 and the MS wheel at the moment. Love the G25. I payed $60 for the MS wheel and for that price is great.

$60???? Damn man you got a great deal!

 

[Diablohead]

If I'm not totally mistaken it has no FF at all, just rumble.

I read that it still gives the wheel movement though even if it's just random rumble, for £20 a while ago you could never get a wheel even with rumble, the last two wheels I owned for PS1 and DC are both fully plastic and cost like £50 retail

 

[tomchoucrew]

As I promised, 4 new gameplay videos of the game (from Le Mans event)

http://www.xboxygen.com/Medias/Videos-Xbox-360/4-videos-exclusives-de-Forza-Motorsport-3

 

[Router]

$60???? Damn man you got a great deal!

I love eBay

 

[Wired]

I decided to pick up a MS Wireless Wheel in anticipation for Forza 3, though my game choices at the moment are somewhat limited (DiRT and PGR4). I tested the wheel in DiRT and had a question. There's a continuous jerking and sort of vibrating motion going on, which I imagine is meant to simulate driving over gravel and whatnot, but the whole thing was sort of noisy and "sharp", I got the impression the gears were grinding inside the wheel, is this normal? My first impression was "fuck it's broken, just my luck".

While I fired up PGR4 my brother came over and threw me out of the sofa so I didn't get to play, but it seemed much smoother in that game. By now I'm too damn tired to try it out myself so I decided to spam this thread instead.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I decided to pick up a MS Wireless Wheel in anticipation for Forza 3, though my game choices at the moment are somewhat limited (DiRT and PGR4). I tested the wheel in DiRT and had a question. There's a continuous jerking and sort of vibrating motion going on, which I imagine is meant to simulate driving over gravel and whatnot, but the whole thing was sort of noisy and "sharp", I got the impression the gears were grinding inside the wheel, is this normal? My first impression was "fuck it's broken, just my luck".

While I fired up PGR4 my brother came over and threw me out of the sofa so I didn't get to play, but it seemed much smoother in that game. By now I'm too damn tired to try it out myself so I decided to spam this thread instead.

Dirt is VERY heavy on the wheel. I did the same thing and found the same results. That game really goes buck wild on your poor wee steering wheel in its attempt to simulate that kind of driving and that kind terrain.

 

[Wired]

Dirt is VERY heavy on the wheel. I did the same thing and found the same results. That game really goes buck wild on your poor wee steering wheel in its attempt to simulate that kind of driving and that kind terrain.

That's good to hear to say the least, was not looking forward to the prospect of shipping the sucker back :lol I guess I'll play around with the FF settings tomorrow.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

I got the MS wheel for Father's Day yesterday.

I need a table to fix it to, though, as it's unusable on my lap.

 

[op_ivy]

I got the MS wheel for Father's Day yesterday.

I need a table to fix it to, though, as it's unusable on my lap.

i use a belt to hold it to my lap. for realz. dont laugh, it works... i am working on getting a proper set up





also, thanks tomchoucrew for the le mans vids

 

[RSTEIN]

Aren't we supposed to get new stuff every Tues?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Aren't we supposed to get new stuff every Tues?

Yeah, new car reveals every other Tuesday, starting today.

I think a new Pitpass podcast should be going up later today as well.

 

[skyfinch]

i use a belt to hold it to my lap. for realz. dont laugh, it works... i am working on getting a proper set up





also, thanks tomchoucrew for the le mans vids

So how do you keep your pants from falling down?


Edit, nm, you're sitting.

 

[DuckRacer]

Yeah, new car reveals every other Tuesday, starting today.

I think a new Pitpass podcast should be going up later today as well.

We're supposed to see a new track today, too.

 

[Kade]

Just played a bit of the 2nd game and loved it.

Anyone else have trouble finishing or even starting 5+ lap races?

 

[Dina]

Just played a bit of the 2nd game and loved it.

Anyone else have trouble finishing or even starting 5+ lap races?

Races generally take too long to finish. IMO when you get into 5/6+ lap territory, F2 lost its charm.

 

[eso76]

Races generally take too long to finish. IMO when you get into 5/6+ lap territory, F2 lost its charm.

if you play the game properly, 5+ laps is when F2 shines imo.
Playing at harder difficulties it can take 10 laps to overtake a car with similar specs as yours, gaining mere inches every lap or taking advantage of the mistakes cpu ai can make.

Then of course, you can fail a 20 mins long race by crashing into the barriers during the final lap, and that's what makes long races less appealing initially.

 

[Diablohead]

F2 could have done with it's menu music playing in races, optional of course but sometimes after countless hours of engine drone, music is good.

Yeah yeah use the blades, I know but most of F2's music is good.

I think the average race time becomes about 8-10 minutes once you get to level 15 and above, no matter what league or race it rounds off to about that time, bar a few odd races which are 6 minutes or endurance.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

I hope they don't update too late, I'd like to see the new stuff before bed.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

It seems no new cars or tracks will be revealed today, unfortunately, but there's still that new podcast to look forward to.

From the FM.net forums:

Hi all. Glad to see everyone's so excited and clamoring for new info on FM3.

So I have a batch of new screenshots and an article I can't release because our PR folks have decided to hold the story for one of our global regions to use that tie-in with one of their biggest motorsports events in their country... which means no new reveal this week.

However, later today, we'll be releasing our first Forza Pitpass Report podcast "video" which streams on Forzamotorsport.net. As you listen to the podcast (featuring Dan G., myself, and Landin), we'll be serving up tons and tons of pictures and photos in the video player on the site. It was a fun podcast to record with Dan since we had so much to talk about (the announce, E3, Le Mans, competitor drama, etc).

Also, I'm going to see if I can squeeze out some more screenshot hotness this week.

So again, sorry no new stuff today, but look forward to the podcast, and as always, let us know what you think.

Thanks,

What big international motorsports events are coming up? Could be a hint, perhaps.

 

[acm2000]

It seems no new cars or tracks will be revealed today, unfortunately, but there's still that new podcast to look forward to.

From the FM.net forums:



What big international motorsports events are coming up? Could be a hint, perhaps.

german f1 gp in 2 weeks

 

[Psychotext]

What big international motorsports events are coming up? Could be a hint, perhaps.

Hmmm...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/calendar/default.stm

 

[RavenFox]

...or Logitech could release an XID wheel.

It works both ways but no surprises which side you're on.

wtf? How can you call fanboi from that reply about company and hardware differences? Which isn't fud.

 

[Flyguy]

What big international motorsports events are coming up? Could be a hint, perhaps.

Monster Trucks in FM3 confirmed.

 

[Randy Lanzarote]

I wonder what the Nordschliefe looks like in this new engine.....

*spooges at the thought*

 

[CrunchinJelly]

I wonder what the Nordschliefe looks like in this new engine.....

*spooges at the thought*

I hope they made the track wider this time round. It feels a little enclosed in FM2.

 

[Dural]

I honestly think the ring has been overdone. I wish they'd spend the resources necessary for the ring and put them into other tracks you don't see as often like Brno.

 

[newsama]

I honestly think the ring has been overdone. I wish they'd spend the resources necessary for the ring and put them into other tracks you don't see as often like Brno.

Don't listen to this guy, che!:lol

I love the ring and have spent countless hours on it, in both PGR and forza franchises.

Imho if more tracks = no ring, it isn't a good deal.