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[Cyan]

"It may be that there has been sinners so notorious evil that the fires coughed em up again..." - Tobin the expriest.

Very interesting to hear a little more about the Judge. Speaks Dutch and a pile of other languages, is a crack shot with both hands simultaneously, can make gunpowder from bat guano, sulphur, and urine. Silver-tongued, hairless, an underlying nasty streak (is it just me, or was it implied he murdered that Mexican kid?).

Is he supposed to personify the devil? Sure starting to seem like it. The endless references to sermons and preaching and congregations and whatnot certainly point to some religious symbolism. I wonder, if I were better versed in the Bible, if I could pick out more subtle references in the little vignettes that happen as the crew travels along...

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

Oh damn, I still have time to start this one and maybe finish it before the 24th.

 

[devenger]

Seriously though, this book doesn't lend itself to my usual mode of reading. This is work.

I had this problem at first, and relaxation is needed. You won't miss anything, and large sections, IMO, are meant to convey a feeling more than a specific plot.

I like how the kid is morally ambivalent. It's a great watermark for other characters.

 

[Cyan]

I had this problem at first, and relaxation is needed. You won't miss anything, and large sections, IMO, are meant to convey a feeling more than a specific plot.

I think you're right. I was able to get through the last benchmark without so much difficulty, by not focusing so hard on what exactly the words meant.

Still feels weird!

Oh damn, I still have time to start this one and maybe finish it before the 24th.

No worries, dude. The benchmarks are more like... guidelines.

 

[nakedsushi]

Everyone tells me this book is bloody and horrible, but I have no problems with all the people getting killed. The animals dying and getting shot and burned though -- I find those passages really hard to read through. I think it's because the animals are kind of just there through no fault of their own, so they don't deserve being treated that way. The people are just all kinds of awful, so I don't feel bad for them.

 

[Cyan]

Well, that was a doozy of a chapter. Brutal massacre of close to a thousand people, mostly unarmed, including women and children? Lovely. And then the almost painful incongruity of the imagery on return to Chihuahua, where the bloodsoaked murderers ride through a "fantasy of music and flowers." Man.

Interesting how the Kid has kind of vanished the last few chapters. This last one was more about Glanton and the band as a whole, the several before that more about the Judge (that story he told about the traveler, the old man, and their sons was fascinating in itself). All we see of the Kid here is his naive helpfulness to the dude with the arrow in his leg.

Everyone tells me this book is bloody and horrible, but I have no problems with all the people getting killed.

Not even the Apache boy? :/

Even Toadvine was appalled by that one. And it wasn't even on-screen!

 

[Night_Trekker]

Maybe my favorite novel of all time. Enjoy it, GAFfers.

 

[nakedsushi]

Not even the Apache boy? :/

Even Toadvine was appalled by that one. And it wasn't even on-screen!

Is that the one the Judge saves for later? Not really. I guess I expected that coming.

 

[Cyan]

So yeah, at this point the crew are pretty much just brigands, riding around killing people and stealing shit, scalping everyone, leaving destruction in their wake. The thing with shoving mules off a steep cliff was... eh, well at this point there's something fucked up every other page, so it wasn't even that bad.

The Judge's explanation for his investigation, note-taking, etc was fascinating and kind of chilling. I had actually wondered if it wasn't something like that, but the way he explained it was just... *shudder*.

 

[Night_Trekker]

I heard it be argued that this book is satire on the western genre.

Blood Meridian is not a "satire" on the genre, and neither is it a deconstructionist Western. People making these claims to not understand the book.

 

[slidewinder]

but holden is the devil rite

 

[coldvein]

don't think the judge is as easy to nail down as "the devil". my opinion.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Not sure how much everyone reading knows about the book's roots in historical fact, but here's an interesting tidbit that helps intensify a read-through: up until the gang passes over the Yuma ferry (which is not in any way a spoiler, don't worry), the events are based pretty heavily in historical fact. There was an actual Glanton gang, and this mindless massacre of civilians for their scalps did indeed take place, and we as readers follow them on the exact path they really took. Judge Holden was a real man, too.

but holden is the devil rite

I know you're kidding, but Blood Meridian is in a sense a very religious novel.

But no, he's not the devil.

Well, we're progressing into something a bit more plot-like. Don't imagine it'll last, though. Any significance to the cards the juggler pulled?

Sorry, I just saw this: yes, they're very significant, and it's something you can completely miss on a reading.

I think Notes on Blood Meridian is a worthwhile companion piece because of minutia like this, which Sepich explains in detail. I don't agree with all of the author's interpretations, but it's worth reading if you love the novel. BM is insanely dense, and I don't think it's likely a reader will be able to interpret some of the symbolism without some help. (Meaning, some of it requires knowledge of things most readers won't have.)

But definitely don't read it until you've finished the book.

For those interested in pursuing McCarthy further after this, there's not a place you can go wrong. Suttree, especially, is a work just as important as Blood Meridian or The Road.

Agreed. I would also say The Crossing is as good as any of those.

But like you said, there's no place you can go wrong with McCarthy. (Well, you might not want to buy the screenplay of The Gardner's Son, but everything else is gold.)

 

[slidewinder]

The events are based quite loosely upon a whole mess of slippery, often-contradictory, always self-serving, mostly hearsay that nobody really cared much about sorting out at the time or at any point since.

And "religious" would be a pretty bad term to describe this book insofar as it conjures up the image of any kind of personal god or any kind of common Western religious practice or belief whatsoever. "Metaphysical" would be a far better one in general, however goofy that might strike people, and this is definitely the most thoroughly and explicitly THAT of McCarthy's books whatever "that" might be.

Of course McCarthy does make plenty of great use of religious imagery throughout his works, especially with that of Mexican Catholicism (although there's not so much of that in this one).

 

[Ashes]

Blood Meridian is not a "satire" on the genre, and neither is it a deconstructionist Western. People making these claims to not understand the book.

I've also heard it be argued that it is the ultimate western.

 

[Night_Trekker]

The events are based quite loosely upon a whole mess of slippery, often-contradictory, always self-serving, mostly hearsay that nobody really cared much about sorting out at the time or at any point since.

One of McCarthy's primary sources was far from reliable, but I explained explicitly the degree to which the novel is historically accurate. Certain of its major characters were real people who participated in the massacre of civilians. McCarthy did reconstruct their path. Of course the entire thing has been dramatized.

And "religious" would be a pretty bad term to describe this book insofar as it conjures up the image of any kind of personal god or any kind of common Western religious practice or belief whatsoever. "Metaphysical" would be a far better one in general, however goofy that might strike people, and this is definitely the most thoroughly and explicitly THAT of McCarthy's books whatever "that" might be.

Of course McCarthy does make plenty of great use of religious imagery throughout his works, especially with that of Mexican Catholicism (although there's not so much of that in this one).

I did say "in a sense." Perhaps I should have use "spiritual" and specified "Christian," but I stand by my statement. It just isn't traditional Christianity/spirituality as most readers might expect (they probably wouldn't even think of it in those terms), and it most definitely isn't validating any sort of religious belief. Happy with that?

We'll have to disagree that there's "not so much of that" in Blood Meridian. I remember quite a lot.

I've also heard it be argued that it is the ultimate western.

I think calling Blood Meridian a "Western" might be doing the book a disservice. McCarthy makes use of a Western backdrop, but he's not creating genre fiction.

 

[slidewinder]

Yeah, this is an extremely ambitious book. This is an extremely ambitious author, and he stuck it out all out there on this one.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Yeah, this is an extremely ambitious book. This is an extremely ambitious author, and he stuck it out all out there on this one.

Absolutely.

 

[Ashes]

I think calling Blood Meridian a "Western" might be doing the book a disservice. McCarthy makes use of a Western backdrop, but he's not creating genre fiction.

Literary elitism aside, I think you are in good company with Bloom, who called the book as such.

Hmm.. There have been some great western films you know... But that is another matter. I don't think we disagree, as I haven't really offered an opinion. nor am I all that bothered to correct this person or that. Anyway, I like the insight you provided thus far... Carry on...

on topic, here's something from Cormacmaccarthy.com:

http://www.cormacmccarthy.com/journal/PDFs/Moos.pdf

 

[Cyan]

Not sure how much everyone reading knows about the book's roots in historical fact, but here's an interesting tidbit that helps intensify a read-through: up until the gang passes over the Yuma ferry (which is not in any way a spoiler, don't worry), the events are based pretty heavily in historical fact. There was an actual Glanton gang, and this mindless massacre of civilians for their scalps did indeed take place, and we as readers follow them on the exact path they really took. Judge Holden was a real man, too.

Damn! Nope, had no idea. But you're right, that makes the whole thing that much crazier.

Sorry, I just saw this: yes, they're very significant, and it's something you can completely miss on a reading.

Cool, I'll have to go back and reread.

 

[Dresden]

I think calling Blood Meridian a "Western" might be doing the book a disservice. McCarthy makes use of a Western backdrop, but he's not creating genre fiction.

It's a Western. Calling it a Western (or "genre" fiction) is no disservice. It's what McCarthy writes.

 

[bengraven]

I've also heard it be argued that it is the ultimate western.

Nah, Lonesome Dove is the ultimate Western.

Blood Meridian is likely a better book however. Both are great.

 

[Cyan]

Not a lot to say here. We're back to a sequential recounting of events, without a whole lot of commentary. Partly because the Kid got separated from the party for a while. Which confused me--the lottery was just to select who had to kill the injured people, yeah? So why'd they just ditch the Kid and the other dude, then?

Also--the Kid should've listened to Tobin about Shelby.

Also also--when the hell did it turn to winter?

 

[Night_Trekker]

It's a Western. Calling it a Western (or "genre" fiction) is no disservice. It's what McCarthy writes.

You know what I meant. Labeling something a "Western" conjures up a series of expected cliches and tropes that generally aren't present in McCarthy's stories.

Yes, BM is a Western. But it's not in any way a typical Western.

Literary elitism aside, I think you are in good company with Bloom, who called the book as such.

Hmm.. There have been some great western films you know... But that is another matter. I don't think we disagree, as I haven't really offered an opinion. nor am I all that bothered to correct this person or that. Anyway, I like the insight you provided thus far... Carry on...

on topic, here's something from Cormacmaccarthy.com:

http://www.cormacmccarthy.com/journal/PDFs/Moos.pdf

I don't think we disagree either. I'm just trying to communicate what slidewinder said: BM is a highly ambitious book with profound subject matter. It's not what the typical reader might expect from a Western.

 

[Ashes]

You know what I meant. Calling something a "Western" conjures up a series of expected cliches and tropes that generally aren't present in McCarthy's stories.

Yes, BM is a Western. But it's not in any way a typical Western.

words, words, words. You're practically arguing with your self now.

we are the interpreters of words; I can't help what you conjour up, nor how you label boxes. I was only repeating what commenters have said.

 

[Night_Trekker]

words, words, words. You're practically arguing with your self now.

we are the interpreters of words; I can't help what you conjour up, nor how you label boxes. I was only repeating what commenters have said.

Fair enough. How about we allow the thread to be about discussing the book from now on?

 

[Cyan]

Whether it's a Western or not depends on what salient features you're trying to get at.

Setting, characters, plot? It's a Western.

Prose styling/high-falutosity? Ain't a Western.

Edit:

Fair enough. How about we allow the thread to be about discussing the book from now on?

Righto. Nothing wrong with a little side-discussion, though.

 

[Ashes]

Fair enough. How about we allow the thread to be about discussing the book from now on?

It's a poor debate, when supposedly opposite views are practically on the same side upon closer inspection.

Spoiler

yes, I stole that line. . It belongs to a friend.

Edit: Cyan probably said it better.

why is kid called kid?

 

[Night_Trekker]

why is kid called kid?

I just assumed it was to make him more of an "everyman" character.

 

[Ashes]

I just assumed it was to make him more of an "everyman" character.

Why not the Kid? Like Bloom describes him. Capitilisation and all.

 

[nakedsushi]

Also also--when the hell did it turn to winter?

Yeah, that part surprised me to. I kept getting confused with where exactly they were and how much time had passed. For a while, I thought they were just north of Texas, but then it seemed like they were in California, but I didn't read anything about them crossing the mountains.

Then for a while, I thought maybe everyone had just died earlier and they're really in hell!

 

[piddledy]

At the end we should drop Holden quotes: "The existence of birds offends me."

I mostly don't understand this book. The biblical prose is used to convey the continuity, from the times of Judah until now, of violence? Manifest destiny didn't justify such wanton violence? Evil always triumphs?

What I like is that the prose is interesting and quotable (while also not always making much sense to me).

 

[Kammie]

Just started this yesterday. Four chapters in. When I thought you guys were saying it was a challenging read I thought you were exaggerating a bit. Yesch. Between the period terms, the abstract descriptions of the scenery, the lack of punctuation/quotation, and the constant runons, this is more confusing than reading a scientific article on Wikipedia (and I know Spanish, which means I understood what was going on in those scenes, lol). All this makes it feel authentic, but I can't say I'm really enjoying it much.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

Well starting to talk about the first two chapters. The book is interesting to say the least. The prose is something that is moderately difficult I feel. More because there is a lack of structure than something that you would see usually.

The images that he instills are very striking however. I am anxious to read more.

Just started reading this one. Three chapters in and, like The Road, I can't think of a writer better at conveying atmosphere than McCarthy. Something about the way he describes everything so simply yet succinctly just works.

I fucking love this book so far. Had to reread a couple passages over just because they move so fast, but the atmosphere is just wicked. Feel dirtier after each page.

 

[Cyan]

Hup, almost forgot it was a milestone day.

More pontificating from the Judge. Much more interesting than the wandering around through badlands and such. "War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him." Fascinating character.

I wonder if there was something more to the coin trick. Some kind of symbolism for the Judge's character, or the things he does.

And whoa, three page chapter. Maybe the Fool doesn't have much more to offer.

Hey, we're getting into Tarot cards again, aren't we?

Edit:
Yeah, thinking about it, we've had a lot of them. The Juggler and the Priestess (the tarot-reading Mexican family). The chariot (the wagon they found in the middle of nowhere). The Judge (who might be that card, or might be the Devil). The Hermit. The Hanged Man and Death (quite a few of those). The Sun, the Moon, the Fool (though the latter I would assign the Kid to, rather than the idiot). We've even had Temperance, in the old man who watered his wine. And probably some others I'm missing.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Wow, I can't believe I've never seen the GAF Book Club until now. I guess maybe whenever I saw the thread I just assumed it was the "What are you reading?" thread or something. Obviously it's a little late in the month now to start a beast of a book like Blood Meridian, but I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for these going forward.

As someone who has only known of the existence of the Book Club for less than ten minutes I don't imagine I have much sway, but I've been hearing really good things about this "John Dies at the End" book, both on GAF and from people at school. Haven't bought it yet because I have a bit of a backlog on my Kindle (including the first four Song of Ice and Fire books I snagged for $10 and am about to start) but if it were the Book o' the Month that'd be a big motivator.

 

[Cyan]

Bout damn time Glanton got what was coming to him. Not sorry to see the back of him. Especially after that last bit, with robbing travelers and leaving them to die, having girls tied up, and whatnot.

On the plus side, I got to feel smart when I understood what a "Procrustean ferry" was referring to.

So, the Judge is after the Kid and Tobin. Not really clear why? Unless it's just another instance of him wanting to either control or destroy everything in the world.

 

[nakedsushi]

So, the Judge is after the Kid and Tobin. Not really clear why? Unless it's just another instance of him wanting to either control or destroy everything in the world.

My theory is the Judge wants to turn the Kid into him or at least corrupt him a little since so far, the Judge's reach isn't really touching him. Not really sure about Tobin and where he came from or what his purpose is though.

 

[Dresden]

So, the Judge is after the Kid and Tobin. Not really clear why? Unless it's just another instance of him wanting to either control or destroy everything in the world.

I think it's just that, really. The Judge considers himself as suzerain, the keeper of the world, whose orders countermand those of other rulers. Tobin and the Kid are to be brought under his control one way or the other - that their survival at the moment does not depend on him is something that cannot be countenanced. And then you have the Kid

Spoiler

not killing him when he had the chance, which could speak of a certain hold that the latter has on him, like a debt that must be expunged.

 

[Cyan]

And then you have the Kid

Spoiler

not killing him when he had the chance, which could speak of a certain hold that the latter has on him, like a debt that must be expunged.

Ohhh. Man, that makes a lot of sense. Since the Kid had that ability to destroy him, even if only temporarily, it was like the Kid took on his suzerainty. So now he's almost obligated to kill or destroy the Kid to take it back.

 

[Mumei]

If on a winter's night, a traveler by Italo Calvino

This! (Did I suggest this at some point or is there really another poster who likes this enough to recommend it?)

The only thing I'd suggest with regards to it is setting the pace so that an even number of chapters are done per update.

 

[Cyan]

If on a winter's night, a traveler by Italo Calvino

This! (Did I suggest this at some point or is there really another poster who likes this enough to recommend it?)

The only thing I'd suggest with regards to it is setting the pace so that an even number of chapters are done per update.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31378882&postcount=26

 

[Cyan]

Almost forgot to book club it, in my excitement over my football team actually winning a game.

And so, ladies and gents, we approach the end. We've lost the whole rest of the outfit (though you just know the Judge will show up again somehow). Time has passed, the world has moved on from Glanton and his gang.

I couldn't help wondering if the old woman, "she was just a dried shell and she had been dead in that place for years" is a metaphor for the Kid, now twenty-eight and still wandering to no purpose.

I think sush has a point about the Kid not being corrupted, though. All those chances to shoot the Judge and he never did...

 

[Ashes]

the kid.

 

[Cyan]

Well, that was... I'm not quite sure how to react to that. Pretty intense at the end. I was sorry to see that the Kid ultimately never changed (shooting the cocky kid), but there you go.

I guess that ending was almost inevitable.

"He is dancing, dancing. He says that he will never die."

I can believe it.

P.S. No clue what's up with the epilogue.

 

[nakedsushi]

^-- I had the opposite feeling. I was glad the kid never really changed. It makes me think the kid "won" against the judge.

 

[Cyan]

^-- I had the opposite feeling. I was glad the kid never really changed. It makes me think the kid "won" against the judge.

Hmm, there's that. I guess I wanted his arc to go upward rather than go nowhere. But you're right, I was glad he never lost to the Judge, whatever happened at the end.

Any thoughts on that, BTW? I was just assuming the Judge killed him, but apparently there are many interpretations out there...

 

[nakedsushi]

Hm, what are the other interpretations? I'm pretty sure the judge killed him. Why else would he be all happy and dancin' like that?

 

[Cyan]

Hm, what are the other interpretations? I'm pretty sure the judge killed him. Why else would he be all happy and dancin' like that?

I was reading some of the links Monocle posted earlier, and there are some wild metaphorical interpretations. I dunno, just found that interesting.


On a side note, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I won't be running a book club thread for November (because, well. I'll be busy). If someone else wants to step up and do it, now is the time. If not, the book club will return in December.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

I know the deadline has passed, but I'm still reading the book. Only about a third of the way through it, but I just HAVE to say that I can't think of an author better at descriptions and imagery than McCarthy. I felt this way about The Road, which permeated an atmosphere I didn't think possible of a book. Now this notion is only solidified by Blood Meridian.

An excerpt from the chapter I just read:

They had but two animals and one of these had been snakebit in the desert and this thing now stood in the compound with its head enormously swollen and grotesque like some fabled equine ideation out of an Attic tragedy. It had been bitten on the nose and its eyes bulged out of the shapeless head in a horror of agony and it tottered moaning toward the clustered horses of the company with its long misshapen muzzle swinging and drooling and its breath wheezing in the throttled pipes of its throat. The skin had split open along the bridge of its nose and the bone shone through pinkish white and its small ears looked like paper spills twisted into either side of a hairy loaf of dough. The American horses began to mill and separate along the wall at its approach and it swung after them blindly. There was a flurry of thumps and kicks and the horses began to circle the compound. A small mottled stallion belonging to one of the Delawares came out of the remuda and struck at the thing twice and then turned and buried its teeth in its neck. Out of the mad horse's throat came a sound that brought the men to the door.

The imagery is so powerful, fucking hell.