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GAF, I hate how Finance and the global markets work

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grumble

Member
For what it's worth I'm waiting on my level 3 results in a couple of weeks, and did a degree in this stuff.

Finance matters for three reasons:

1. Permit the flow of capital by connecting borrowers and lenders, sellers and buyers at low cost.

2. Permits the redistribution of risk, which is good. A farmer who will go bankrupt from a drought pays a little to hedge against it, and everyone else deals with the risk to an extent that they can handle or diversify away.

3. Permits the discovery of approximate prices for goods.

Without a properly functioning finance system we would be in the stone ages.
 

ezrarh

Member
For what it's worth I'm waiting on my level 3 results in a couple of weeks, and did a degree in this stuff.

Finance matters for three reasons:

1. Permit the flow of capital by connecting borrowers and lenders, sellers and buyers at low cost.

2. Permits the redistribution of risk, which is good. A farmer who will go bankrupt from a drought pays a little to hedge against it, and everyone else deals with the risk to an extent that they can handle or diversify away.

3. Permits the discovery of approximate prices for goods.

Without a properly functioning finance system we would be in the stone ages.

While this is true, I feel like the financial sector's profit as a portion of the total domestic corporate profits (>30% from what I've read) is way higher than it should be. Correct me if I'm being unreasonable about this. I see so many intelligent people, many of them my friends/acquaintances from engineering school, go into finance and banking. I can't tell you what they do since I don't know the details but a lot of it seems like bullshit.
 
No one is saying that finance as a whole is bad and unnecessary.

Just that the higher forms of finance are corrupt and usually just gambling.
 

reKon

Banned
No one is saying that finance as a whole is bad and unnecessary.

Just that the higher forms of finance are corrupt and usually just gambling.

Much better chances than putting all your money into a casino, especially when dealing with options! Just not as exciting =[
 

Gotchaye

Member
For what it's worth I'm waiting on my level 3 results in a couple of weeks, and did a degree in this stuff.

Finance matters for three reasons:

1. Permit the flow of capital by connecting borrowers and lenders, sellers and buyers at low cost.

2. Permits the redistribution of risk, which is good. A farmer who will go bankrupt from a drought pays a little to hedge against it, and everyone else deals with the risk to an extent that they can handle or diversify away.

3. Permits the discovery of approximate prices for goods.

Without a properly functioning finance system we would be in the stone ages.

Basically. Obviously the actual financial system we have is far from an ideal one in that it fails to do all three of those things nearly as well as it could.

1. The cost is definitely not low.
2. Instruments get so complicated that nobody is really sure what they're actually exposed to. Also there are occasional outbreaks of incredible stupidity (bundling a bunch of risky mortgages and assuming they're all basically independent, say).
3. The system expends a great deal of effort not even attempting to value things at "what they're worth". Huge numbers of trades, and this is true for basically all short-term trading, are just about taking advantage of having or using some piece of information just before everyone becomes aware of it, or are about playing a game of hot potato where everyone thinks that a bigger sucker is going to come along until one doesn't. The trades are made not on the basis of what someone thinks something is worth, or even on the basis of what someone thinks someone else thinks something is worth, but rather on the basis of what someone thinks someone else thinks someone might be tricked into paying for something.

The system needs to be hugely more transparent, and needs to be arranged to minimize the amount of short-term trading as opposed to actual investing in something because you think there's a real value proposition there.
 

Cyan

Banned
I feel you, OP. I kinda went through the same thing studying for the CFA.

There are a few useful things about markets, as grumble points out. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the field of finance, in its current state, is much more than friction on the economy.
 
Have to leave quickly but what I agreee with most of what Uncompromisable, RedNalgene & Sonicfan said. I work in equity trade and what Uncompromisable said about the 'research' being offered is bang on.

The crux of Capital Markets IMO is the information gets out to everybody eventually. It's who gets it when that makes all the difference. Coupled with the fact that most of the information being used is suspect, you can see why things aren't going well most of the time.

Congrats to the OP on passing CFA II. Hoping to start that once I get my Masters.
 

Cyan

Banned
Oh yeah, congrats on the CFA II, dude! The essays are tough on the third exam, but the second exam has the hardest material.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Will show this thread off to my partner. She's been a little lax regarding the forex lately because of her job, but she's always loved this aspect of things and would ultimately prefer to be trading at home than be stuck in an office. For me it's always been the boring "god damn the Yen is that high now??" surprise of the finance day, but I'm not afraid to admit that it's very cool to see those fluctuations occur live and having decisions mull about in the head before finalizing.

Needless to say, she'll appreciate this thread much more than I did.
 

jdavid459

Member
Going into junior year undergrad in finance this September, honestly kinda wanna bail out. So much BS involved with the finance industry, whats the point.
 
Will show this thread off to my partner. She's been a little lax regarding the forex lately because of her job, but she's always loved this aspect of things and would ultimately prefer to be trading at home than be stuck in an office. For me it's always been the boring "god damn the Yen is that high now??" surprise of the finance day, but I'm not afraid to admit that it's very cool to see those fluctuations occur live and having decisions mull about in the head before finalizing.

Needless to say, she'll appreciate this thread much more than I did.

She trades Forex? I know I won't be trading forex as my main play, because it's a 24 hour stint. It's the worst feeling when you wake up not knowing of any surprise moves from 3-6am, when London gets going. With that said, when there is intervention in the market, it is Epic. I was staring at the screen when the BOJ intervened and took the yen from 78 to 84-85 in a matter of minutes. It is sad that while stop loss orders are needed, it tells the world at what price they can take you out.

Found this chart on the shadow banking that has moved the world to the brink. I want to read up a lot more about the changes that happened with Reagan and Greenspan. The voodoo economics of debt and propping up the supply side, I think is the imbalance that has us where we are today.

shadow-1.jpeg
 

RJT

Member
So now that everyone agrees that what we have doesn't work, and since this is the only GAF thread where people don't think everybody that works in finance is evil: what do you think would help to get things back on track?

For me, it's two things:

-big banks shouldn't trade OTC derivatives. All derivatives traded by banks should have effective clearinghouses. No domino effect from AIG not being able to pay CDS they sold. OTC stuff should be reserved for Hedge Funds and small Investment Banks that can go bankrupt with systemic impact.

-too big to fail is too big to exist. Either break them up or forbid them to enter anything more risky than a simple mortgage. It is not acceptable to have private profits and socialized losses.
 
Going into junior year undergrad in finance this September, honestly kinda wanna bail out. So much BS involved with the finance industry, whats the point.

I was in the same position you are in, but I stuck with it for one major reason; it is absolutely important to have at least a fundamental understanding of how corporate finance works. I coupled it with a degree in International Business, and I find both to be very important as I head into a Masters with a focus in energy studies.

As I expect to be in the private sector at some point, a solid grounding in finance is vital.

Doesn't mean I like it or the higher levels of the industry, but it is important.

So now that everyone agrees that what we have doesn't work, and since this is the only GAF thread where people don't think everybody that works in finance is evil: what do you think would help to get things back on track?

For me, it's two things:

-big banks shouldn't trade OTC derivatives. All derivatives traded by banks should have effective clearinghouses. No domino effect from AIG not being able to pay CDS they sold. OTC stuff should be reserved for Hedge Funds and small Investment Banks that can go bankrupt with systemic impact.

-too big to fail is too big to exist. Either break them up or forbid them to enter anything more risky than a simple mortgage. It is not acceptable to have private profits and socialized losses.

Fully agreed, especially with Too Big To Exist.
 

sonicfan

Venerable Member
So now that everyone agrees that what we have doesn't work, and since this is the only GAF thread where people don't think everybody that works in finance is evil: what do you think would help to get things back on track?

For me, it's two things:

-big banks shouldn't trade OTC derivatives. All derivatives traded by banks should have effective clearinghouses. No domino effect from AIG not being able to pay CDS they sold. OTC stuff should be reserved for Hedge Funds and small Investment Banks that can go bankrupt with systemic impact.

-too big to fail is too big to exist. Either break them up or forbid them to enter anything more risky than a simple mortgage. It is not acceptable to have private profits and socialized losses.

Exactly what I was saying above, and can't be emphasized enough...
 
The fact that Sandy Weill came out for it, makes me think there is something fishy going on, but I am also in favor of bringing back a souped up version of the Glass-Steagall Act. I think it's a start in dealing with the big 4 banks.

As for high-frequency trading, it would be glorious if there was a tax imposed per transaction, but that would just move money or firms out of the US. The capital markets should not be a game of who has the fastest execution or algorythm. I'm not affraid of pre-1990's market liquidity.

The government needs to toughen up on the derivatives market. The SEC, CFTC, etc have no clue how to reign in on this stuff, or they are prevented from doing so. All these assets need to be marked to market to their true value, but it's not happening because we are talking about trillions gone overnight.

We basically need to press the reset button. Mark down the assets, let prices collapse, bring on deflation, and let's focus on the bottom up.

For Bernanke, deflation is absolute worst thing that can happen in a world that pushes for growth no matter how fake it is. I think we need it.
 
I think yeah, the main thing that was lost, was Finance being used to allocate capital where it is needed. The game became about making money from money itself. It happened in the 1600's when the first share of ownership in a venture was traded.

Finance still does that. And to tie it nicely with Europe - venture capital is terrible in Europe, the whole culture does not support entrepreneurial risk taking America does.

You still have plenty of venture capital firms looking for the next Facebook or Google, you cannot simply spin around and become a hedge fund overnight.

I also would like Glass-Steagall Act to be re-implemented. Make debit/credit separate from investment banking.
 

ElyrionX

Member
- Markets are traded by computers in miliseconds, and congress won't do anything to intervene. The DOW once dropped 800 points on a glitch. Oops. Sorry for the sucker that based his long position on fundamentals.

That was a market anamoly as a result of a human error and was corrected in a matter of minutes. Did anyone who based his position on fundamentals really lost money from that event?


- These past few days, money managers with their fingers on the red button have been so starved for big daddy government to artificially prop up the markets, that two baseless comments by Draghi and today Merkel have lead to two days of the DOW jumping 200 points each. They say BUY the rumours, SELL the news. There is no fundamental demand behind it.

I agree that the comments were baseless (I mean, what else was he expected to say? That the euro was doomed and that the central bank was going to sit and watch it die?). But that's just my view and your view. Can anyone reasonably expect millions of other people to hold the same view? 10y Spanish bonds traded at 7.6% before Draghi's remarks; a level that is widely recognized as being fiscally unsustainable for the Eurozone's fourth biggest economy. If Spain goes down the drain, the widely held view is that the Eurozone and perhaps the world economy would go down the drain as well. If Draghi's remarks are interpreted as the ECB announcing reactivation of the SMP to support Spain at this week's Governing Council meeting (a conclusion that is not entirely unreasonable based on what was actually said by Draghi), don't you think that the macro implications will be huge, at least in the short term? Isn't that near-term "fundamentals"?

Secondly, how do you know that the markets jumped because of the remarks by Draghi and Merkel? Because the headlines said so? And who writes the headlines? Idiotic and ignorant journalists, 99% of whom have no real professional and practical experience in trading or investing in the markets. Do you believe what they wrote? Do you believe that millions of professional and retail investors worldwide bought into the markets simply because of those remarks? Are the markets truly that simple or is it a result of human tendencies to oversimplify complex mechanisms?


tl:dr Finance and the global markets are the most bullshit manipulated contrived aspect of our existence as humans, which also happen to be the things that make the world go round. It's a field driven by greed, and not efficiency, no matter what I have read in academia.

Finance and global markets are ultimately a reflection of human emotions and humans are ultimately driven by greed. No, the market is not efficient and no one in the field truly believes that it is. And that's what makes it all the more fascinating.
 
Democrat, Republican, it doesn't really matter. Both parties are whores to special interest and only present a facade of choice to the common man.............which they have nothing in common with.

I wish more people understood this.



-big banks shouldn't trade OTC derivatives. All derivatives traded by banks should have effective clearinghouses. No domino effect from AIG not being able to pay CDS they sold. OTC stuff should be reserved for Hedge Funds and small Investment Banks that can go bankrupt with systemic impact.

-too big to fail is too big to exist. Either break them up or forbid them to enter anything more risky than a simple mortgage. It is not acceptable to have private profits and socialized losses.

My understanding of this stuff is limited, but based on what I do know, I completely agree.
 

Micerider

Member
tl:dr Finance and the global markets are the most bullshit manipulated contrived aspect of our existence as humans, which also happen to be the things that make the world go round. It's a field driven by greed, and not efficiency, no matter what I have read in academia.

I Feel your pain...I am working in one of the two ICSD's (not much choice here if You know them) and have therefore plenty of opportunity to see the market as a whole...and it's shit...it depresses me how much shit it is.

Not the fact that the capital market exists (it's needed, and can do much good when it serves it's purpose well : generate economic flows and "value" mobility to have a dynamic creation of "wealth"), not because all people working in finance are a**holes (very few actually are...most are nice chaps doing their jobs)...no... just because the entire industry is chasing it's own virtual enhancement and lost almost all regards to what might be it's impact on the "real world".

I'm happy that I do not have stakes in here. I mostly do "servicing" and I am only there to help unfold some tricky situations as far as custody management is concerned (and I like that job)...but the whole environement makes me feel sad.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I like how it's so messed up, that a couple of companies can determine how much governments pay to borrow money. Isn't that the wrong way round?
 

Micerider

Member
I like how it's so messed up, that a couple of companies can determine how much governments pay to borrow money. Isn't that the wrong way round?

In a sense...it's not "wrong" (states should not determine what they pay in a world-wide economy, as you should not determine what you pay for any goods or service)...if it was not used as a "self-fulfilling" prophecy that raises a lot of questions.
 

Azih

Member
I work on the software side of capital markets (stock markets) and honestly the stock market is straight up bullshit. It should not be given any amount of importance in the real world and yet 'financial news' is nothing but a moronic obsession with it.
 

grumble

Member
Basically. Obviously the actual financial system we have is far from an ideal one in that it fails to do all three of those things nearly as well as it could.

1. The cost is definitely not low.
2. Instruments get so complicated that nobody is really sure what they're actually exposed to. Also there are occasional outbreaks of incredible stupidity (bundling a bunch of risky mortgages and assuming they're all basically independent, say).
3. The system expends a great deal of effort not even attempting to value things at "what they're worth". Huge numbers of trades, and this is true for basically all short-term trading, are just about taking advantage of having or using some piece of information just before everyone becomes aware of it, or are about playing a game of hot potato where everyone thinks that a bigger sucker is going to come along until one doesn't. The trades are made not on the basis of what someone thinks something is worth, or even on the basis of what someone thinks someone else thinks something is worth, but rather on the basis of what someone thinks someone else thinks someone might be tricked into paying for something.

The system needs to be hugely more transparent, and needs to be arranged to minimize the amount of short-term trading as opposed to actual investing in something because you think there's a real value proposition there.

1. The cost is hugely lower than if there was no infrastructure and diversification. Without it individuals and companies would have major issues borrowing money.

2. Agreed, some of the complex instruments are being mismanaged, but it still makes sense. People who can't handle a risk pass it off to those who can, and those who can get a fee for taking on that risk. The principle is sound, tye execution needs a little work.

3. The short term isn't the issue here, though it's still wildly more accurate than no trading at all. the emh doesn't hold perfectly, but in the longer term it works.

Personally I'd Mandate a holding period of any securities purchased for 24 hours. We'd see much better pricing, with the cost of higher spreads, lower volume and increased dark pool use.
 

Avtomat

Member
Sorry if this is not the most fun read, but I have to vent somewhere...

I know GAF loves to hate on capitalism, and rightly so, but this thread is not about capitalism per se, but about the current state of global finance.

One of my favourite quotes ever comes from Godfather Part 3: "Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger." Growing up I always knew I wanted to be in Finance. I studied it in college, currently work for one of the big banks (dealing mostly with underwater mortgages), and also have been trading currencies successfully for 4 years now. Just this tuesday I found out I passed Level II (of 3) of the CFA exam (Chartered Financial Analyst), which is one of the toughest designations to get for investment analysis and portfolio management.

It's all a casino ran by algorythms. The fundamentals, the economic theories, efficiency of markets, etc, was all fun to learn, but is bullshit when you are trying to make a buck in the markets. Any schmuck out of the streets can be a market genius if they know how to look at lines crossing on their screens, and have the right psychology for it. I went from wanting to get a master's in Behavioral Finance, to looking into computer science/physics/mathematics to try to understand how the markets work.

From Stock-gaf, it's no secret that I am bearish on the markets. How can you not be? Central banks no longer have the resources to prop up the inflated assets, and we are weeks away from Spain/Greece defaulting/needing bailouts. The Euro is untenable.

If you don't read anything else, you can just read this. Here is what I am angry/sad about:

- Markets are traded by computers in miliseconds, and congress won't do anything to intervene. The DOW once dropped 800 points on a glitch. Oops. Sorry for the sucker that based his long position on fundamentals.

- These past few days, money managers with their fingers on the red button have been so starved for big daddy government to artificially prop up the markets, that two baseless comments by Draghi and today Merkel have lead to two days of the DOW jumping 200 points each. They say BUY the rumours, SELL the news. There is no fundamental demand behind it.

- I paraphrase a saying I read once. The market is like a whore. It's job is to fuck you and take as much of your money as it can. When there is a general consensus of the direction of the market, it's best practice to go the other way, since the big players will hunt for stops (these are levels where traders have set to take losses). For example with the Euro/Dollar it is quoted by 1.23xx. Today a big level for stops was 1.2380. Today the market went up from 1.2260 to 1.2380 on no news. That's 120 "pips" (think of it as points in the DOW, and each pip can be worth hundreds to thousands of dollars thanks to leverage). It hit 1.2380 and like clockwork, it dropped 100 pips after that.

- If there is an investor out there for it, the institutions will create a financial product or derivative for it. Stocks, stock options, stock futures, stock options on futures, swaps, repos, forward rate agreements, CDS, Cash/Synthetic CDOs, mortgage backed security senior/subordinate/variable tranches... the Godman Sachs of the world don't know what other scheme to get investor money. They are trading weather patterns now... it's a flea market for risk/return. No wonder there is a shadow market worth trillions upon trillions that nobody understands.

I'm willing to share experiences with those interested in this stuff, and I'd like to hear how others view the markets and finance. Anybody else as sickened as I am from it?

tl:dr Finance and the global markets are the most bullshit manipulated contrived aspect of our existence as humans, which also happen to be the things that make the world go round. It's a field driven by greed, and not efficiency, no matter what I have read in academia.


Addressing your criticisms:

- It was a glitch if your long term position was based on fundamentals once the glitch is rectified prices should return back to their previous positions, unless the glitch highlighted some other issue the market had not accounted for already

- Markets are rightfully based upon expectation, if you think the liklihood of an event occuring has increased significantly should this not be factored into the price? If a war is likely to breakout and food / oil supplies are likely to be severly affected should the market not price for this expectation? Makes sense to me.

- Stops are financial play boys way of saying if it goes down this far this herd I am following is loopy hence bail out. THey are also completely virtual IMO with only short term and day traders paying attention to them.

- I am a mechanical engineer by trade I am not expected to know everything about electrical, electronics, robotics, nuclear and all other branches of engineering neither should a financer be knowledgeable on all aspects of finance when the industry has grown so large. I would possibly go with the arguement of there is trillions of dollars worth of finance that is not invested in anything but is simply trading on the back of others investments ie a transferance of wealth from those who bet the right way on stocks or options or whatever without actually creating any value.


The market represents precisely that a market, the algorithms and computer controlled trading is there to remove arbitage, ie stocks selling for different prices in different locations. The markets are perfectly rational in the long term only short term day traders should view it as a harsh mistress moral of the story is GO LONG OR GO HOME.
 
- Markets are rightfully based upon expectation, if you think the liklihood of an event occuring has increased significantly should this not be factored into the price? If a war is likely to breakout and food / oil supplies are likely to be severly affected should the market not price for this expectation? Makes sense to me.

(...)

The markets are perfectly rational in the long term only short term day traders should view it as a harsh mistress moral of the story is GO LONG OR GO HOME.

If expectations are not rational then the underlying valuation will also be flawed. Computers can run trades, but market attitude has a lot do to with psychology, herd mentality, etc., and not cold rational thinking.
 

RJT

Member
The market represents precisely that a market, the algorithms and computer controlled trading is there to remove arbitage, ie stocks selling for different prices in different locations. The markets are perfectly rational in the long term only short term day traders should view it as a harsh mistress moral of the story is GO LONG OR GO HOME.

"Markets can remain irrational a lot longer than you and I can remain solvent", John Maynard Keynes

You can replace "you and I" with "entire nations" these days.
 

sonicfan

Venerable Member
The fact that Sandy Weill came out for it, makes me think there is something fishy going on, but I am also in favor of bringing back a souped up version of the Glass-Steagall Act. I think it's a start in dealing with the big 4 banks.

As for high-frequency trading, it would be glorious if there was a tax imposed per transaction, but that would just move money or firms out of the US. The capital markets should not be a game of who has the fastest execution or algorythm. I'm not affraid of pre-1990's market liquidity.

The government needs to toughen up on the derivatives market. The SEC, CFTC, etc have no clue how to reign in on this stuff, or they are prevented from doing so. All these assets need to be marked to market to their true value, but it's not happening because we are talking about trillions gone overnight.

We basically need to press the reset button. Mark down the assets, let prices collapse, bring on deflation, and let's focus on the bottom up.

For Bernanke, deflation is absolute worst thing that can happen in a world that pushes for growth no matter how fake it is. I think we need it.

Spot on.

And there is not a politician in the world that wants to press that reset button on their watch. Which of course will make the eventual break that much worse than if true market forces were allowed to take their course...
 
With the ever-increasing reliance on computers and digital models to predict, influence, and control the market the only positive aspect that I see in the global markets is that they have the potential to be the breeding ground of an unintentionally created artificial lifeform(s).

That's about it, everything else sucks for the reasons you've mentioned in the OP.
 
- Markets are traded by computers in miliseconds, and congress won't do anything to intervene. The DOW once dropped 800 points on a glitch. Oops. Sorry for the sucker that based his long position on fundamentals.

If he didn't panic and stayed in the market a couple more hours, it bounced back.

They only people it sucked for were the people trading via computers in miliseconds, and then only if they reacted badly. It really really sucked for the people who caused the glitch, though. They got hurt badly.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
If he didn't panic and stayed in the market a couple more hours, it bounced back.

They only people it sucked for were the people trading via computers in miliseconds, and then only if they reacted badly. It really really sucked for the people who caused the glitch, though. They got hurt badly.

No, it sucks for anyonewho cashed out at that time, because they lost a ton of money for no reason at all.

Someone, somewhere, happened to be cashing out on their 401k when that 800 point drop happened. Someone was liquidating their assets so they could buy a new car or house. And they got fucked

Don't give me that "Oh, it wouldn't affect anyone unless they screwed up" BS mentality. That's why finance is stained with shit right now: Allthey do is think "Oh, this would never blow up in our faces." They never stop to consider the actual merit of what they're doing for their customers or society in general.

"Oh, they wouldn't lose money unless THEY screwed up. It couldn't be that someone else's actions screwed things up for them"
 
No, it sucks for anyonewho cashed out at that time, because they lost a ton of money for no reason at all.

Someone, somewhere, happened to be cashing out on their 401k when that 800 point drop happened. Someone was liquidating their assets so they could buy a new car or house. And they got fucked

Don't give me that "Oh, it wouldn't affect anyone unless they screwed up" BS mentality. That's why finance is stained with shit right now: Allthey do is think "Oh, this would never blow up in our faces." They never stop to consider the actual merit of what they're doing for their customers or society in general.

Usually people cash out with specific orders about price. Any reasonable money manager would. It was a twenty minute window. Anyone cashing out was doing so either blindly, or else in panic.

It was also a one-time event. Hadn't happened before, hasn't happened since. It's not like this is an occurance which has been increasing in frequency. That was at the tail end of a market period marked with all sorts of market chaos based on the failure of the housing market, and the beinging of the European slide. It also wasn't actually caused by a glitch (although a big market jump the same year was).

Last, most of the companies trading like this don't have customers, they are trading their own accounts for their own benefits.

Here's a nice article on the topic: http://www.economist.com/node/21547988
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
One thing I find funny and never see mentioned is this:

If a handful of very big financial companies use computer "AIs" to trade so that they don't have to trade themselves...

If there is only a handful of very big financial companies to begin with...

All you would need to do is wait for an economic crisis to hit the global markets, and then fill those institutions with a gigantic cash injection, which would give them an edge against all other financial institutions, making their share of the "market" bigger than ever....

And then what if those "AIs" can know about each other's trades and communicate with one another?

Due to the huge cash injections, you could acquire large part of the markets. Then you could effectively control the markets because it would be the equivalent of having all your employees working hand-in-hand with all other employees of other companies to rig the system, but instead of relying on thousands of people, which would get you caught, you rely on a handful of computers to do it themselves.

80% of the transactions are high frequency trades if I recall right.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Usually people cash out with specific orders about price. Any reasonable money manager would. It was a twenty minute window. Anyone cashing out was doing so either blindly, or else in panic.

It was also a one-time event. Hadn't happened before, hasn't happened since. It's not like this is an occurance which has been increasing in frequency. That was at the tail end of a market period marked with all sorts of market chaos based on the failure of the housing market, and the beinging of the European slide. It also wasn't actually caused by a glitch (although a big market jump the same year was).

Last, most of the companies trading like this don't have customers, they are trading their own accounts for their own benefits.

Here's a nice article on the topic: http://www.economist.com/node/21547988

Again, you're writing it off as THEIR fault.

Most people do not invest as a full time 24/7 gig. They put money in, and when they retire, or they need the liquidity to pay for something, they cash out. The concept of casually and routinely moving billions of dollars with the press of a button on a day to day basis is completely foreign to any individual, including Warren Buffet.

Do you think the typical retiree or aspiring home owner would rather just "wait it out" when they have another use for the money planned? There's no utility to owning a stock, while a new car or home or pending surgery has plenty of utility to an individual. They're not gong to put off other aspects of their life just to make sure they get out of the stock market at the best time.

Oh, and if the dow just dropped 800 points, they'd be more likely to think there was a run on a bank, or a country like spain or greece defaulting if they casually followed financial news, rather than a random computer glitch. I doubt they'd tell their broker "Wait, you know how I was going to cash out today? Well, the dow just tanked 7%, I'm sure it's nothing, let's wait until tomorrow."

When it's time to cash out, it's time to cash out. For most people. they cash out at a certain time, not at a certain price
 
Well, as I said, that big drop wasn't a glitch. It was market overreaction. Not caused by computer. The one big market move that was known to be caused by computers ended up paying people, not robbing them-- much to the dismay of the firm that caused the glitch. They lost tons and then were fined on top of that.

You say I'm making it somebody's fault, but their isn't a "fault" here to be had. The market has occasionally gone bonkers. The Flash Crash was one of those times, but there were all sorts of other things that happened in the market that hurt a *lot* more people to a much larger degree. Just about all of 2009 for instance. Getting all upset about HFT is a real distraction from the market manipulators behind the housing bubble and crash. HFT is an easy scapegoat because it's a small and relatively uninfluential part of the financial industry, that the Goldmans of the world can point to, distracting from the shit they're pulling.

(And, as I said, most people who would be cashing out would be doing so through a broker, and there are usually conditions of buying and selling exactly so people don't get hurt this way. I suppose somebody doing self-service on eTrade who didn't know what they were doing might have gotten particularly hurt, but I doubt that's a lot of people, and in that case that's the downside of self-service.)
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
You seem absolutely adamant that no one could be screwed over, through no fault of their own, by someone else's financial activity. That anyone who lost money because of that "human error" should have had better timing.

That any Enron employee who lost most of their retirement savings should have better diversified (Note: My company matches 50% of your first 8% of salary contributions to 401k. So the standard employee going for the max full match amount would contributes 8% of their salary to their 401k, and the company would contribute 4% of that employee's salary to that employee's 401k. All of the company match goes into the Employee Stock Options Program. Or in other words, by default, the standard employee has 1/3rd of his or her 401k principal is the company's stock, since every deposit into the 401k is 33% ESOP. You need to go in to the savings plan weekly and transfer money out of the ESOP balance to other mutual funds to keep the ESOP balance from getting too large. There is no option to change the fund the company match contributes to by default. I imagine this was the case with Enron and its employees, that the company structurally made it so that by default, the employees had a lot of money invested in Enron in their 401ks, and the employees would need to continuously transfer money out of Enron shares to ensure they were properly diversified)

Etc, etc


Real people have real savings, and every level of the financial industry is acting irresponsible in managing the capital they are entrusted with, from the credit default swaps to the automated HFTs on the stock market.

It's shameful.

Wikipedia summary of the Flash Crash said:
After almost five months of investigations led by Gregg E. Berman,[7][8] the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) issued a joint report dated September 30, 2010 and titled "Findings Regarding the Market Events of May 6, 2010" identifying the sequence of events leading to the Flash Crash.[9]

The joint report "portrayed a market so fragmented and fragile that a single large trade could send stocks into a sudden spiral,"[10] and detailed how a large mutual fund firm selling an unusually large number of E-Mini S&P 500 contracts first exhausted available buyers, and then how high-frequency traders (HFT) started aggressively selling, accelerating the effect of the mutual fund's selling and contributing to the sharp price declines that day.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17]

The SEC and CFTC joint report itself says that "May 6 started as an unusually turbulent day for the markets" and that by the early afternoon "broadly negative market sentiment was already affecting an increase in the price volatility of some individual securities." At 2:32 pm (EDT), against a "backdrop of unusually high volatility and thinning liquidity" that day, "a large fundamental trader (a mutual fund complex) initiated a sell program to sell a total of 75,000 E-Mini S&P 500 contracts (valued at approximately $4.1 billion) as a hedge to an existing equity position." The report says that this was an unusually large position and that the computer algorithm the trader used to trade the position was set to "target an execution rate set to 9% of the trading volume calculated over the previous minute, but without regard to price or time."[9]

As the large seller's trades were executed in the futures market, buyers included high-frequency trading firms – trading firms that specialize in high-speed trading and rarely hold on to any given position for very long – and within minutes these high-frequency trading firms also started aggressively selling the long futures positions they first accumulated mainly from the mutual fund.[10] The Wall Street Journal quoted the joint report, "'HFTs [then] began to quickly buy and then resell contracts to each other—generating a 'hot-potato' volume effect as the same positions were passed rapidly back and forth.'"[10] The combined sales by the large seller and high-frequency firms quickly drove "the E-mini price down 3% in just four minutes."[10]

From the SEC/CFTC report itself:

The combined selling pressure from the Sell Algorithm, HFTs and other traders drove the price of the E-Mini S&P 500 down approximately 3% in just four minutes from the beginning of 2:41 pm through the end of 2:44 pm. During this same time cross-market arbitrageurs who did buy the E-Mini S&P 500, simultaneously sold equivalent amounts in the equities markets, driving the price of SPY (an exchange-traded fund which represents the S&P 500 index) also down approximately 3%.
Still lacking sufficient demand from fundamental buyers or cross-market arbitrageurs, HFTs began to quickly buy and then resell contracts to each other – generating a “hot-potato” volume effect as the same positions were rapidly passed back and forth. Between 2:45:13 and 2:45:27, HFTs traded over 27,000 contracts, which accounted for about 49 percent of the total trading volume, while buying only about 200 additional contracts net.[9]
As prices in the futures market fell, there was a spillover into the equities markets. The computer systems used by most high-frequency trading firms to keep track of market activity decided to pause trading, and those firms then scaled back their trading or withdrew from the markets altogether.[10][11][12][13]

The New York Times then noted "Automatic computerized traders on the stock market shut down as they detected the sharp rise in buying and selling."[12] As computerized high frequency traders exited the stock market, the resulting lack of liquidity "...caused shares of some prominent companies like Procter & Gamble and Accenture to trade down as low as a penny or as high as $100,000."[12] These extreme prices also resulted from "market internalizers,"[18][19][20] firms that usually trade with customer orders from their own inventory instead of sending those orders to exchanges, "routing 'most, if not all,' retail orders to the public markets – a flood of unusual selling pressure that sucked up more dwindling liquidity."[13]

While some firms exited the market, firms that remained in the market exacerbated price declines because they "'escalated their aggressive selling' during the downdraft."[10] High-frequency firms during the crisis, like other firms, were net sellers, contributing to the crash.

The joint report said prices stopped falling when, "At 2:45:28 pm, trading on the E-Mini was paused for five seconds when the Chicago Mercantile Exchange ('CME') Stop Logic Functionality was triggered in order to prevent a cascade of further price declines. In that short period of time, sell-side pressure in the E-Mini was partly alleviated and buy-side interest increased. When trading resumed at 2:45:33 pm, prices stabilized and shortly thereafter, the E-Mini began to recover, followed by the SPY."[9] Or as the New York Times reported, "The rout continued until an automatic stabilizer on the futures exchange cut in and paused trading for five seconds, after which the markets recovered."

The joint report noted that after a short while, as market participants had "time to react and verify the integrity of their data and systems, buy-side and sell-side interest returned and an orderly price discovery process began to function," and that by 3:00 pm (EDT), most stocks "had reverted back to trading at prices reflecting true consensus values" and the Flash Crash was over.

There are people who were in the stock market for the long haul whose timing unfortunately happened to coincide with a completely stupid, nonsensical dip caused by recklessness and HFTs

The last person you should be blaming is the individuals who got caught in the crossfire.

Fuck the finance industry as it stands and its culture.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Well, as I said, that big drop wasn't a glitch. It was market overreaction. Not caused by computer. The one big market move that was known to be caused by computers ended up paying people, not robbing them-- much to the dismay of the firm that caused the glitch. They lost tons and then were fined on top of that.

You say I'm making it somebody's fault, but their isn't a "fault" here to be had. The market has occasionally gone bonkers. The Flash Crash was one of those times, but there were all sorts of other things that happened in the market that hurt a *lot* more people to a much larger degree. Just about all of 2009 for instance. Getting all upset about HFT is a real distraction from the market manipulators behind the housing bubble and crash. HFT is an easy scapegoat because it's a small and relatively uninfluential part of the financial industry, that the Goldmans of the world can point to, distracting from the shit they're pulling.

(And, as I said, most people who would be cashing out would be doing so through a broker, and there are usually conditions of buying and selling exactly so people don't get hurt this way. I suppose somebody doing self-service on eTrade who didn't know what they were doing might have gotten particularly hurt, but I doubt that's a lot of people, and in that case that's the downside of self-service.)

And why do HFTs exist? So that the finance industry can make money not by investing, but by making billions and billions of fraction-of-a-cent-per-unit gains on thousands and millions of transactions per second.

It's just another stupid mechanism the finance industry uses to make money without any concern for risk or side effects.

So what if we play a game of hot potato? So what if it messes up the volume and prices real people have to pay? So what if we move billions in the blink of an eye without any actual person overseeing the transactions? WE'RE MAKING MONEY, BITCHES!
 
You seem absolutely adamant that no one could be screwed over, through no fault of their own, by someone else's financial activity. That anyone who lost money because of that "human error" should have had better timing.

Where exactly did I say this? I merely said that the flash crash, for all the excitement over it, probably didn't hurt that many people too badly. You keep glossing over the fact that people don't usually sell without limits on how low. Your example of a person "cashing out" during that interval doesn't represent many people. And certainly not when compared to the people hurt by other, long-term strategies employed by big investors.


That any Enron employee who lost most of their retirement savings should have better diversified (Note: My company matches 50% of your first 8% of salary contributions to 401k. So the standard employee going for the max full match amount would contributes 8% of their salary to their 401k, and the company would contribute 4% of that employee's salary to that employee's 401k. All of the company match goes into the Employee Stock Options Program. Or in other words, by default, the standard employee has 1/3rd of his or her 401k principal is the company's stock, since every deposit into the 401k is 33% ESOP. You need to go in to the savings plan weekly and transfer money out of the ESOP balance to other mutual funds to keep the ESOP balance from getting too large. There is no option to change the fund the company match contributes to by default. I imagine this was the case with Enron and its employees, that the company structurally made it so that by default, the employees had a lot of money invested in Enron in their 401ks, and the employees would need to continuously transfer money out of Enron shares to ensure they were properly diversified)

Etc, etc

I've worked places where there is matching in company equity. I wasn't commenting on that practice at all. I understand why firms do it, and yes, it can lead to being over-invested in one place, which is not wise.

Real people have real savings, and every level of the financial industry is acting irresponsible in managing the capital they are entrusted with, from the credit default swaps to the automated HFTs on the stock market.

It's shameful.

There are people who were in the stock market for the long haul whose timing unfortunately happened to coincide with a completely stupid, nonsensical dip caused by recklessness and HFTs

And my point is that conflating HFTs with the kind of investing practices that led to the financial collapse is like lumping people who come to a rolling stop at stop signs with people who drunk drive and go 60 MPH in residential neighborhoods.

As I said, I think the HFT provides a very convient distraction for the large investment banks to point at, in particular as they are being regulated out of HFTs themselves.

Out of control computer programs are also more enticing to the lay news reader than the relatively mundane "evil people with money and leverage screw the rest of us."

You also again miss my point that generally HFT is conducted by people managing their own monty, not the money of others.
 
I agree that the comments were baseless (I mean, what else was he expected to say? That the euro was doomed and that the central bank was going to sit and watch it die?). But that's just my view and your view. Can anyone reasonably expect millions of other people to hold the same view? 10y Spanish bonds traded at 7.6% before Draghi's remarks; a level that is widely recognized as being fiscally unsustainable for the Eurozone's fourth biggest economy. If Spain goes down the drain, the widely held view is that the Eurozone and perhaps the world economy would go down the drain as well. If Draghi's remarks are interpreted as the ECB announcing reactivation of the SMP to support Spain at this week's Governing Council meeting (a conclusion that is not entirely unreasonable based on what was actually said by Draghi), don't you think that the macro implications will be huge, at least in the short term? Isn't that near-term "fundamentals

Secondly, how do you know that the markets jumped because of the remarks by Draghi and Merkel? Because the headlines said so? And who writes the headlines? Idiotic and ignorant journalists, 99% of whom have no real professional and practical experience in trading or investing in the markets. Do you believe what they wrote? Do you believe that millions of professional and retail investors worldwide bought into the markets simply because of those remarks? Are the markets truly that simple or is it a result of human tendencies to oversimplify complex mechanisms?"?

The market rallies of this year, and of the past few weeks, have been done on extremely slim volumes, especially because retail investors have left the markets in droves. The 200 pip jump in the EUR started the minute the statement came out (I was watching the screen). The whole point is not that millions of people jumped in, but the algorythms of the major players not only feed off of each other, but are set to interpret positive headlines. There aren't any doctors in their offices calling their brokers to buy buy buy! These reactions take minutes because it is computer driven, until major levels of stop losses or resistance are hit.

As for the short term fundamentals, the headlines ignore the statement preceeding what he said, which is "Within our mandate...". They are very limited as to what they can do. Germany came out during the weekend saying that they will NOT be buying Spanish bonds, so in the absence of a new creative solution, the EFSF and the ECB are not in the position to do anything. Nothing has changed in the short-term other than a sense of urgency from those at the top. It's a red flag, but the market doesn't think beyond that.

Finance and global markets are ultimately a reflection of human emotions and humans are ultimately driven by greed. No, the market is not efficient and no one in the field truly believes that it is. And that's what makes it all the more fascinating.

My reason for starting this thread is that I think we have diverged from that. If it is about human emotions, it is about the emotions of the few powerful players, and those emotions are played out by computer algorythms and AI.

colinisation said:
- Stops are financial play boys way of saying if it goes down this far this herd I am following is loopy hence bail out. THey are also completely virtual IMO with only short term and day traders paying attention to them.
...
The market represents precisely that a market, the algorithms and computer controlled trading is there to remove arbitage, ie stocks selling for different prices in different locations. The markets are perfectly rational in the long term only short term day traders should view it as a harsh mistress moral of the story is GO LONG OR GO HOME.

Stops are not used by the big guys precisely for the reason that they are transparent to others. The stop hunts would be even more merciless. As it currently stand, so many people use the same indicators, trend lines, fibonacci etc, that these stop levels are easy to determine. Moreover, long-term for the big players these days is not very long. We are not dealing much with the Warren Buffets that ride out the swings.

Electronic trading came about to get rid of the middle man market maker that was pocketing a few cents per trade. Pools of electronic trading were created so that traders could match orders between each other, improving efficiency and profits. Left to their own devices, markets (and participants throughout history) are irrational. They are irrational as long as they are enabled. Then, everything comes crashing down, rinse, and repeat.

Financial assets are priced with an efficient market assumption, but there is not much use for that assumption after that.
 
And why do HFTs exist? So that the finance industry can make money not by investing, but by making billions and billions of fraction-of-a-cent-per-unit gains on thousands and millions of transactions per second.

It's just another stupid mechanism the finance industry uses to make money without any concern for risk or side effects.

So what if we play a game of hot potato? So what if it messes up the volume and prices real people have to pay? So what if we move billions in the blink of an eye without any actual person overseeing the transactions? WE'RE MAKING MONEY, BITCHES!

The financial industry is not a single homegenous entity. HFT exists because it can. The peopel in propietary trading are relative outsiders compared to investment banks.

Also, how does it mess up volume and prices exactly? There are market forces at working even in HFT. Remeber that example I made of an actual large market move caused by glitch? If was the HFT that caused it that ended up on the losing side. Payday for everybody else.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
I'm not missing the point. The monstrosities financial institutions have created as instruments such as CDO, CDS, the 100% LTV subrime loans, combined with the use of HFTs create an industry with hundreds of thousands of times more risk than your traditional buy and hold stock/bond fundamentals.

It is creation of highly volatile toxic assets that can be split up combined with an approach to investing that pursues high-risk/high-reward-per-unit transactions without any long-term position or outlook (that is one of the distinguishing features of HFTs. No concern for the long-term, only concerns for what it's trading and planning to trade at any given point in time).

It's playing hot potato and deciding to replace the toy with an actual bomb (but making sure you start with the bomb and have enough time to get rid of it before it explodes, then withdrawing immediately after you get rid of the bomb).

This isn't investing. It's fucking around with society.
 
Again, I think you are conflating different elements within the financial industry.

HFTs are not high-risk/high-reward at all. They try to be as low risk as possible.

I agree that short term* trading strategies with high risk/high payout are a huge problem though, as are increasingly complex instruments which are not well-understaood even by their makers and sold off to investors working increasingly uphill to find stable pools of investment with decent return.

*Short term in this case is an eternity compared to HFT though. HFT trades in and out of positions in miliseconds, as the OP points out, while "short term" to the rest of the industry can mean months.

HFTs can increase volume, might be artificially increasing price (though I've never heard anything concrete on this) and increase liquidity (which is a good thing). Algorhthmic trading (done by HFTs and others as well) has dangers which could exapand, but IMHO are being exagerated in part due to the fact that in conveniently removes blame from the ETF issuer who bundles together crap in an effort to make it look better and pawns if off on the local Savings and Loan manager or fund manager who can't tell the difference.

In other words, the people who are doing most of what you are talking about are busy pointing at HFT and saying "hey, look that computer is going crazy!" Meanwhile, people are actively deceieing others and manipulating investors which much, much larger consequences like the collapse of 2008.
 

Venfayth

Member
Fascinating thread, really interesting (depressing) stuff. I don't have much to add, but I'm subscribing and will continue reading.
 
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