That doesn't seem to be a given, unless I missed something. It could easily be PC/Steam + iOS + PSN.Opus Angelorum said:I understood that.
The Witness will be released on XBLA, which to me undervalues his stance.
Stumpokapow said:And yet the guy is a set-for-life multi-millionaire who will make a mint on this game no matter how many or how few platforms he releases it on.
Why do you feel like Blow is the only one complaining about XBLA?Kafel said:Sure he'll have other constraints but somewhat he has to enter in a box if he wants to sell his game on a closed system. MS isn't going to create the XBLBlow service for his games.
Key word here is 'forum'. You're supposed to make conversation and debate. That's the point.teruterubozu said:Sure, why not. I'm on an internet forum, not the debate team.
Yeah, that struck me too, but after the success of Braid I guess it's not too surprising.wrowa said:The Wittness has a budget of $2 million? That's the most surprising part of the article to me.
Kafel said:He's still an indie and complains about something that isn't really aimed at him. There's still the XBLIG service if he doesn't want to deal with the constrainsts mentioned above.
Sure he'll have other constraints but somewhat he has to enter in a box if he wants to sell his game on a closed system. MS isn't going to create the XBLBlow service for his games.
wrowa said:The Wittness has a budget of $2 million? That's the most surprising part of the article to me.
obonicus said:I've actually heard otherwise; that he's going all-in on the Witness and needs it to be a success.
chubigans said:Has there even been an XBLA release that doesn't sell massively better on Steam?
chubigans said:Why do you feel like Blow is the only one complaining about XBLA?
Kafel said:You're talking about indie devs ? Yeah, working under professional constraints with contracts and deadlines and all of that can be hard for them.
So why doesn't he talk about the PSN ? He's looked at his sales figures or what ?
Kafel said:You're talking about indie devs ? Yeah, working under professional constraints with contracts and deadlines and all of that can be hard for them.
So why didn't he talk about the PSN ? He's looked at his sales figures or what ?
Stump >> The XBLA has moved on. The average budget there has followed the same trend than for retail AAA games.
Meanwhile the Indie Service was created and indie devs can release their artistic productions there.
chubigans said:Has there even been an XBLA release that doesn't sell massively better on Steam?
Then again, one could argue that the XBLA release gives the eventual Steam release better exposure and, as a result, better sales.
Microsoft seems to have a knack for pissing all over their best devs (Blow, Team Meat). There's some horrible management going on over there.
chubigans said:Has there even been an XBLA release that doesn't sell massively better on Steam?
Des0lar said:So what? Of course it made him money, but there are better alternatives out there that make even more money and are not a huge legal hassle. So it very well could be that he will drop XBLA as a platform. Did you even read the OP?
Where they can then watch them get buried.Kafel said:Meanwhile the Indie Service was created and indie devs can release their artistic productions there.
Rlan said:It's more that Microsoft's system is made more for "companies" than the 2 guy team. When you're a two guy team you have to wear a LOT of hats, and MS's way of things doesn't really help you if you don't have a full on "PR guy" or "CEO".
1-D_FTW said:Do you know for a fact they have a standard contract? Because a major bone of contention with him seemed to be he has to spend three months dicking around with the lawyers before MS finally caves to the fair terms everyone knows it should be. Sounds like they're trying to squeeze every ounce of blood they can from people who aren't patient and willing to play lawyer chicken. As opposed to say Steam or iOS where the contract is standard and there's no gamesmanship involved.
That sounds like it'd be a ding against the way XBLA works.Phonomezer said:It's not even a fair comparison.
360 is a closed platform and XBLA is only available in something like 32 countries as opposed to the massive coverage Steam has, not to mention pricing flexibility.
You're acting as if the percentage of core gamers is small. Arcade games do sell and if Microsoft is actually a bit more flexible with their policy you'll see better sales because Arcade is a major part of Xbox Live.Zeouterlimits said:For the hardcore, those who read magazines, listen to podcasts etc. How many games does the average CoD player buy? Or the Kinect Owner? Will Fruit Ninja Kinect sell to all these new Kinect owners? What's the installbase difference between those XBLA-lovers and XBLA-ignorant?
I'm basing this on the Gamasutra XBLA sales articles.
Stumpokapow said:Braid sold well over a million copies across the platforms. We'll say a million. Assuming he sold at an average price of $10 (seems unlikely, the vast majority of the XBLA sales were at $15) and took home 25% on each platform (seems unlikely given the known revenue splits out there), and was getting 4% interest on his investment, he'd have about $700k in the bank after deducting the "2 million" dollars for the Witness.
Assuming he sold at an average price of $12 and took home 50%, he'd have $4.5 million in the bank after deducting the budget for the Witness.
And this is a guy who chose to hire employees, making his costs and risks significantly higher.
It seems very unlikely to me that this is a guy living on the edge. Introversion literally having to fire all their employees and partially fold their company is living on the edge.
Kafel said:That's what he says. I mean, the guy SAYS he's reading his contract and at the same time he bitches on the service in the press. It doesn't click for everyone here ? Are you all rookies ?
We know MS only wants the exclusive or they won't really care, they'll release his game later in a week already filled with two others if he's annoying.
The problem is that MS doesn't specifically need Blow either. They already have a lot of games to fit in a year of XBLA.
StuBurns said:Bite the hand that feeds Mr Blow.
Archie said:So what you're saying is that the small teams need to ask Valve for TF2 integration.
Kafel said:Stump >> The XBLA has moved on. The average budget there has followed the same trend than for retail AAA games.
Meanwhile the Indie Service was created and indie devs can release their artistic productions there.
Rlan said:Well... yes? There are a fair few games which get their TF2 thingymabob, but not everything does. There are probably strict guidelines.
It's also not as easy to get onto Steam as some independant developers make you think.
Stumpokapow said:Braid sold well over a million copies across the platforms. We'll say a million. Assuming he sold at an average price of $10 (seems unlikely, the vast majority of the XBLA sales were at $15) and took home 25% on each platform (seems unlikely given the known revenue splits out there), and was getting 4% interest on his investment, he'd have about $700k in the bank after deducting the "2 million" dollars for the Witness.
I'm not defending the publisher. I think it would be cool if the audience that has paid his rent for the last three years would get to play his next game, but that's just me.1-D_FTW said:Defending yet again another mega publisher. Shocking.
Rlan said:Blow didn't actually port Braid to PC or PSN -- that was Hothead. He got a cut, but assumedly Hothead gets something too for their effort.
1-D_FTW said:Name calling? Nice. Are you sure you're not the rookie, because this post makes no sense to me.
Zeouterlimits said:That sounds like it'd be a ding against the way XBLA works.
Amen. I understand that reading is passé and a lot of people here tend to just read the thread title and a few bolded bits before going by their prior knowledge about the involved parties, but Blow isn't alone in his criticism of XBLA and how MS has been handling the service. He's also not "whining," unless you're the reductionist type and need to distill various shades of criticism and debate down to "XXX rocks" or "XXX sucks."Stumpokapow said:Right, but that's the point. That's the point Bacon Wrapped Games (Cloning Clyde, Ancients of Ooga) have made. That's the point Squashy Software (Cletus Clay) have made. That's the point Team Meat (SMB) have made. That's the point Introversion (Darwinia) have made. That's the point Cold Beam (Beat Hazard) have made. That's the point Hello Games (Joe Danger) have made. That's the point Paradox (Magicka) have made. That's the point Amarita Design (Machinarium) have made. That's the point Curve Studios (Explodemon) have made. That's the point Metanet (N+) have made. These aren't all people just being whiny or trying to drum up press. That's the point everyone made when the number of slots reserved for MS-published indie XBLA titles got radically decreased in 2009.
XBLA used to be a service somewhat aimed at indies. An increasing focus on high profile major publishers, less generous revenue splits, combined with lower barriers to entry and more success available elsewhere and particularly on Steam have made it a lot less nice of a place for Indies.
If they don't want to work with Microsoft and they don't need to work with Microsoft, they will be less likely to work with Microsoft, which will result in a less diverse, less thriving service.
These people aren't complaining because they can't sell their games. They'll all sell their games just fine. Almost everyone above are literally so rich off their games that they could retire and do nothing for the rest of their lives. These are not people jealous of the success of others and raging out. They're complaining because the service isn't what it could be, which is bad for everyone.
Braid is $15 on XBLA as well. Or was, it might have dropped at this point.Phonomezer said:I would love to see how the profit margins compare between Braid at $20 on XBLA and $15 on Steam.
Where does he say he's negotiating a contract right now? All he says is that he hasn't talked to publishers yet, which seems to be a prerequisite to negotiating a contract with Microsoft (but not with Valve of course).Kafel said:Name calling, what ?
I meant that when you're negociating a contract, going out in the press and being vocal about how "you're being treated" is not an innocent practice. ; )
Princess Skittles said:Braid is $15 on XBLA as well. Or was, it might have dropped at this point.
teruterubozu said:Go get it for me then.
subversus said:I still can't understand why Braid needed leaderboards.
Stumpokapow said:XBLA *requires leaderboards of some kind.
* there have been a few exceptions (Rlan would know better than me which games are exceptions) but they'd be less than 1% and they evidently didn't give Blow one.
Which games are these? I just don't know of them.BruiserBear said:I find it hilarious whenever we hear about how stringent Microsoft's cert process is, and then we have these horribly buggy XBLA games get released. smh
Because it is.TheOddOne said:Thats sounds so... pretentious.
tiff said:Because it is.
But either way, he's right here. The amount of stupid hoops you're supposed to jump through to get a game on XBLA is ridiculous.
For the purpose of comparison, though, what are the requirements for getting on Steam?
Be a big publisher (same as XBLA) or be seemingly randomly picked by whoever is reviewing content to release (same as XBLA).tiff said:For the purpose of comparison, though, what are the requirements for getting on Steam?
subversus said:yeah, it requires it but Braid still doesn't need it. That's the point of Blow. If your game doesn't need all that stuff why spending your time and money implementing it while there are other venues where you don't need to implement it?
Well it's not exactly like you work for free, whether you own the studio or not. The fact that number is totally arbitrary is what makes it debatable though.Stumpokapow said:I personally disagree strenuously with including ones own time as the part of a budget.
Out of curiosity - but who paid for the other people that worked on Braid if they had no part in profits?Assuming he sold at an average price of $12 and took home 50%, he'd have $4.5 million in the bank after deducting the budget for the Witness.