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Game of Thrones is bad. Like, really bad. Here's why. (Spoilers)

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As per the sexism argument... wasn't there a bunch of articles published after s6 arguing that the show was turning an inherently sexist storyline (from the books) due to the setting into a Woman Power fantasy with all the main players (aside from Jon and Bran) now being all Women? Dani, Cercei, Sansa, Sand Snakes (ugh), lady Mormont, Yara...

Ah yep. Loads of 'em

Just one example

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/...ros-6-reasons-game-of-thrones-is-a-triumph-f/

Those articles were all nonsense mostly written by individuals that never read the books or didn't understand them. Having the Sand Snakes murder their uncle and cousin to take over Dorne is not feminism. Also, the idea of women being the driving force for the tail end of the conflict in the story is clearly being setup in the books. We had the War of the Five Kings, everyone now believes we'll have the War of the Five Queens. The show is definitely NOT some triumph of feminism, especially not over the books.
 

Aikidoka

Member
I'd agree that the show is pretty dumb. Not much happens and what does happen is really incoherent and poorly thought out. The "8th-grade book reports" is pretty funny considering how juvenile and slapdash the plot of the show is. As an example (that you didn't mention), the scenes leading up Jon's siege of Winterfell were a complete mess. You have Jon yelling for order in his tent that everyone must remain calm, that it would be completely stupid to just charge off. Next scene: Jon immediately charges alone at Winterfell because his brother only knows how to run in straight lines or some bullshit. This could be somewhat acceptable if there were any consequences but there aren't any. Ramsay's archers are in a wonderfully convenient formation with Jon Snow shaped holes in it and he miraculously doesn't die and moreover wins the battle.

Pretty much every sequence in the show is similarly incoherent. I've only read the first three books, but one of the main themes that the show continually breaks is that "actions have consequences". But ever since like the 4th season, characters have been doing really random things that have no justification and seemingly getting away with whatever the plot needs them to get away with.
 

Elandyll

Banned
The books have some incredibly feminist themes. The show, as I mentioned, takes the "violence = empowerment" ball and runs with it, as though that makes up for the gratuitous rape, infantilisation and objectification that permeates the rest of it.
A -lot- of people seem to disagree with you apparently. But you are welcome to your opinion obviously.
 

munchie64

Member
Just want to chime in and say that despite its problems, Game of Thrones still isn't really popcorn entertainment to me. I'm too interested in the world and characters for that.

Just making it clear there's at least one that feels that way.
 

marrec

Banned
We comparing Game of Thrones and Transformers now

Bruh

The fuck

Why

Ahhhhh

On the surface it's big flashy spectacle without much underlying it. Cersei blowing shit up is cool because it's very style over substance. We're cheering for her because fuck those dudes and she's cool and looks cool. It doesn't get much more complicated than that, the writers don't allow it to get much more complicated.

Now, it's got much better direction and costuming and acting, don't get me wrong. But lets not pretend the plots are so much better (they're a bit better).
 

Elandyll

Banned
Have you read the books?
No, but the OP said it's not about the books/ Adaptation I thought?

This being said, I am not doing the argument myself, just pointing out that the show itself can be viewed as feminist empowerment (particularly its last season) and that many have seen it as such.

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-6-feminism/

https://www.bustle.com/articles/171...s-became-one-of-the-most-feminist-shows-on-tv

http://archive.is/EVk9P

Etc.

In fact, it was almost strange to see so many feminists embracing S6, leading some to write anti-feminism articles arguing that NO S6 or GOT are not such (but their "opinion" of feminism drips from the paragraphs when they mention for each author of quoted articles that she is a "feminist").
 

Budi

Member
Those articles were all nonsense mostly written by individuals that never read the books or didn't understand them. Having the Sand Snakes murder their uncle and cousin to take over Dorne is not feminism. Also, the idea of women being the driving force for the tail end of the conflict in the story is clearly being setup in the books. We had the War of the Five Kings, everyone now believes we'll have the War of the Five Queens. The show is definitely NOT some triumph of feminism, especially not over the books.

The article isn't about the books you see? So it's not relevant at all. And that article doesn't make the claim that the show would be triumph of feminism over the books. Get a hold of yourself man.
 

pashmilla

Banned
For real. I was expecting a valid argument against the show itself, not "but the books were different@!!@" for the 900th time.

Plot and writing

Even people who still like the show admit the writing is pretty awful. And it really is. Nothing makes sense. Ellaria decides to avenge Oberyn by... murdering his entire family. And no one seems to have any problems with a bastard woman taking over Dorne? Arya is a hot fucking mess. She kills the Waif, who hates her for no apparent reason, and this makes her no one? Stannis getting annihilated by Ser Twenty of House Goodmen, then deciding to burn his daughter because they've been without food for like a day, even though he's the man who survived the siege of Storm's End by eating book leather and rats for A YEAR? Robb deciding to say fuck it to his marriage vows and marrying Talisa because YOLO (as opposed to doing it for honour, which creates a parallel with Ned, hmm, it's almost like this is a THEME or something) which leads directly to the deaths of him, his wife, his unborn child and his mother. Nice one, Robb. I could go on.

Westeros Jetpack Joyride

Every character has a jetpack and Westeros exists in a warp that distorts time. This is the only explanation I can think of for the timeline. Yara goes from the Iron Islands to the Dreadfort in less than a season, even though this would require sailing around the entire continent, but Gilly's baby is still a baby and Myrcella has been in Dorne for years! Littlefinger is a most industrious teleporter, zipping from the Eyrie to Moat Cailin to Mole's Town in a matter of days, apparently. Sansa and Jon's walking tour of the North takes months, presumably, but Cersei's trial is "in a few days". And Jaime got all the way from Dorne to King's Landing, but Doran has only just received news of Myrcella's death? This attempt at a coherent timeline makes for fun reading.

"Themes are for eighth grade book reports," an actual quote by David Benioff

ASOIAF is a very thematically cohesive body of work. Themes of identity ("Theon, my name is Theon, you have to know your name"), themes of family and love, the intersection of the personal and political, so on. Game of Thrones dislikes themes, because according to the showrunners, who have Masters degrees in Creative Writing, themes are for eighth grade book reports. No, I will not stop quoting that, because it will never stop being stupid. It's almost like Jon and Dany's ADWD arcs are direct parallels to each other or something? And that Sandor as the gravedigger is finally at peace? That Cersei is a foil to basically every major female character, like Sansa, Dany, Arianne, Catelyn, Arya, and Brienne? Brienne and Jaime's arcs in AFFC also parallel each other, as both struggle with questions of what it means to be a knight, and what the true meaning of honour is, and with their place in the world - Brienne as a woman who does not conform to gender expectations, and Jaime as a disabled person. In the show Jaime's disability is mostly forgotten (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau had to point out to D&D that Jaime might have trouble fighting now that, you know, his sword hand is chopped off) and Brienne is just a murdering brute who doesn't seem to question herself at all. The show's themes consist of "revenge is good!". Sansa sics dogs on Ramsay, Arya brutally murders people, Brienne abandons Sansa to kill Stannis yet faces no repercussions for this decision, and all of these are portrayed as good things. Even though they're actually kind of disturbing.

All the -isms. All of them.

Game of Thrones is sexist. And racist. And homophobic. And ableist. Rape is used for shock value, and the patriarchy exists except when it doesn't (that fucking dinner scene at Horn Hill, urghghghghgh). No, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Brienne and Ellaria brutally and remorselessly murdering people is not "empowering". Violence isn't empowering. Violence is just violent.

Then there's the Dothraki, who are admittedly problematic in the book as well, but this is taken up to eleven in the show. Dany burns down their most sacred temple with all their khals inside and instead of killing her they bow to her, because those savage brown people know their place. And Tyrion whitesplaining to Missandei and Grey Worm in Meereen, fucking kill me. When Missandei told Tyrion he didn't understand what it was to be a slave I fucking cheered. You go girl. Tell that condescending asshole.

Homophobic. Loras. Oh my god, Loras. What the fuck did they do to you?! Book Loras joins the kingsguard, because in his words, "when the sun has set, no candle can replace it" ;A;. He is a renowned knight, a supreme badass - a little hot headed and reckless, but hey, he's young - and extremely protective of his beloved sister Margaery. In the show, he is GAY! Did you know that Loras is GAY? He likes MEN! He likes FASHION because he is GAY! He sleeps with prostitutes because he's just so GAY! And then in season 6, the gay man gets tortured and scarified with religious iconography before getting blown up. Oberyn and Ellaria, both bisexual, live in a fucking brothel. In the book, Oberyn makes an offhand comment about them "sharing a beautiful blonde", but they also have four young children together and are doting parents. But no, those crazy brown bisexuals amirite.

Ableism. Jaime, Jaime, Jaime. He stops a sword with his golden hand! How wacky. And Hodor, because disability can't just be, it has to have a reason behind it. I know this is taken from the books, and if it's in the same context as in the show I will be upset. The beetles monologue, ugh.

Quoting myself. I mean, it's right there in the OP.
 
Talk about thread backfire...



If you need to quote yourself, you've already lost.


I don't get how reading through this thread one can see it as a backfire.

Unless the hahaha no posts stand out more to you than the lengthily written explanations of people's disappointments in the show and it's shortcomings?

I should clarify, I feel game of thrones is far from a bad TV show. The production values are incredible. It is a very poorly written show, however.
 

molnizzle

Member
Quoting myself. I mean, it's right there in the OP.

I stopped reading after about the 5th comparison to the books.

Reading all that now though, I disagree with just about everything. You're looking for stuff to hate to reaffirm the bias you already have as a book reader. The writing isn't great but it's not the catastrophic dumpster fire you paint it as. The "jetpack" stuff makes me roll my eyes; it's quite obvious that plenty of time has passed in between those transitions. It would just make for boring TV to show people traveling on a boat for months. The stuff on "-isms" is especially ridiculous given that the entire point of that shit is to mirror our real world and point out how fucked up we are. That stuff is supposed to make you uncomfortable. Also, you complain about that stuff but then lament that Tyrion isn't a huge rapist motherfucker like he was in the books. wat?

Having read the entire OP now, I stand by my initial assessment that you're just an angry book reader who wishes the adaptation was more faithful.
 

Budi

Member
lol

Breaking Bad is the worst show I've ever binged. Was waiting for it to get good and it never did.

Name few good shows please, would love to hear what you appreciate if neither GOT or Breaking Bad can't be considered good shows.
 
I stopped reading after about the 5th comparison to the books.

Reading all that now though, I disagree with just about everything. You're looking for stuff to hate to reaffirm the bias you already have as a book reader. The writing isn't great but it's not the catastrophic dumpster fire you paint it as. The "jetpack" stuff makes me roll my eyes; it's quite obvious that plenty of time has passed in between those transitions. It would just make for boring TV to show people traveling on a boat for months. The stuff on "-isms" is especially ridiculous given that the entire point of that shit is to mirror our real world and point out how fucked up we are. That stuff is supposed to make you uncomfortable. Also, you complain about that stuff but then lament that Tyrion isn't a huge rapist motherfucker like he was in the books. wat?

Having read the entire OP now, I stand by my initial assessment that you're just an angry book reader who wishes the adaptation was more faithful.

The "jetpack" criticism always makes me roll my eyes because no-one had a problem with it in Season 1 (Cat). Again just shows how people don't understand how TV works and that they can't just show someone traveling for 8 episodes with detailed descriptions of food they eat along the way.
 
Apparently we've gotten to the point where when a person criticizes GoT and references the books, their argument is immediately invalid and they don't need to be responded to in a way other than dismissive. The reason people reference the books when criticizing the show is because when you watch something on GoT and think "wow, that was really stupid" you naturally think back to the version of that character/event that isn't stupid. Like, wow, literally everything related to the downfall of Stannis in S5 is terrible and meme-worthy, but I bet if I mentioned the books when criticizing it people would start defending it as being not shit.

I forgot about this, OP you should've just linked this:

TUN: Blame of Thrones



Eh, sometimes watching trash is fun. You just turn your brain off and enjoy the explosions, gore, and sex. I enjoyed Transformers 3 even thought it is pure garbage. It's what the phrase "guilty pleasure" is for.

This video depressed me. Poor Arya :(
 
Agree with basically everything in the OP but will still watch the show just because. It's a crap show.. and whenever it wins awards over other dramas I cringe.
 
So you have both a problem with the show taking multiple allusions to rape out, because that's straying from the books so Tyrion will be more likeable, AND still want to drag the show for "using rape for shock value?" How much rape SHOULD it have?

And you conflate the show taking place in a sexist world with the show itself (which has multiple incredible roles for female leaders and assassins and knights and cunning/corrupt politicians and more) being sexist. Got it.

Anyway, here's an alternate take: https://www.bustle.com/articles/171...s-became-one-of-the-most-feminist-shows-on-tv
 
Apparently we've gotten to the point where when a person criticizes GoT and references the books, their argument is immediately invalid and they don't need to be responded to in a way other than dismissive. The reason people reference the books when criticizing the show is because when you watch something on GoT and think "wow, that was really stupid" you naturally think back to the version of that character/event that isn't stupid. Like, wow, literally everything related to the downfall of Stannis in S5 is terrible and meme-worthy, but I bet if I mentioned the books when criticizing it people would start defending it as being not shit.



This video depressed me. Poor Arya :(

No, it's the constant comparisons without having an understanding for how TV works which makes the book arguments tired and counterproductive. I can understand frustrations, because GOT is probably doing the most condensing out of any mainstream adaption, and that's really just a fault of the medium.
 
On the surface it's big flashy spectacle without much underlying it. Cersei blowing shit up is cool because it's very style over substance. We're cheering for her because fuck those dudes and she's cool and looks cool. It doesn't get much more complicated than that, the writers don't allow it to get much more complicated.

Now, it's got much better direction and costuming and acting, don't get me wrong. But lets not pretend the plots are so much better (they're a bit better).
This is such bullshit. Lol
 

ryseing

Member
I haven't read all 10+ pages of this thread, so I apologize if this argument was already made. I'm going to make a bit of a counter argument, namely that the show has a problem with respecting masculinity, namely in the cases of Jon, Stannis, and Doran. Each of those three gets screwed out of key character moments at the expense of "making women badass".

Jon really came into his own as a leader in S5, only to have that stripped away because the writers knew they fucked up and needed to redeem Sansa. Jon is nothing short of a fucking idiot in S6. I found myself in absolute disbelief after everyone insisted on following Jon after he got his ass kicked and only won because of the deus ex machina of the Vale. Hey Jon, Rickon is bait. Don't take the bait. Don't take the bait. NO SERIOUSLY DON'T TAKE THE FUCKING BAIT. He makes poor decision after poor decision in S6 and gets bailed out because of Sansa.

Doran... Fucking Doran. I knew his master plan wasn't going to happen on the show, but is it too much to ask to show Doran as more than a gouty fool? Instead Ellaria and her bad pussies kill him without giving him a chance to show that he's more than an idiot. Why even introduce him if you're just going to have the incompetent Snakes kill him off?

Stannis is a whipped subservient to Melisandre, which is an interesting way to go if the execution had been better. As it was, I didn't buy him voluntarily burning his only heir alive.

There is a way to make both female and male characters capable without having to make one look better at the expense of the other. Lyanna Mormont is a perfect example of this. Instead three strong leaders are made to look like idiots.
 
If you don't think GoT turned into total shit in Season 5 then you're drinking the Kool-Aid.

I mean, it's not really a faithful adaptation of the books as far as the characters go after like Season 2 so...


ASoIaF needs an animated adaptation.

Posts like these are hilarious.

"My subjective opinion is clearly objectively correct and you're on something if you disagree."

I say bring on winter!
 
No, it's the constant comparisons without having an understanding for how TV works which makes the book arguments tired and counterproductive. I can understand frustrations, because GOT is probably doing the most condensing out of any mainstream adaption, and that's really just a fault of the medium.

I'm aware of the limitations, but that doesn't excuse some of the show's garbage writing. There would still be complaints if the show actually tried to handle things well, but not nearly as much. S5 is the perfect example, nobody really thinks that AFFC and ADWD would be a smooth transition to screen but it's done in an incredibly stupid way with things like Sansa's marriage plot and Ramsay's 20 good men. And Dorne.
 

PK Gaming

Member
For real. I was expecting a valid argument against the show itself, not "but the books were different@!!@" for the 900th time.

How is "I don't like how the show adapted character personalities" not a valid argument.

How is "I don't like how the show deals with travel and the passage of time" not a valid argument.

How is "I don't like how the show eschews the themes from the original novel for more action" not a valid argument.

How is "I don't like how characters make idiotic and illogical decisions" not a valid argument.

How is "I don't like how the show handles women and gay characters and here's why" not a valid argument.

The idea that OP hates the show because it's "different" from the books is such horseshit. No, i'm not saying the books were sacrosanct, nor am I saying the OP is 100% correct. But if you genuinely believe that OP's arguments boil down to "because it was different from the books", then you're being delusional fanboy, straight up.
 

pashmilla

Banned
So you have both a problem with the show taking multiple allusions to rape out, because that's straying from the books so Tyrion will be more likeable, AND still want to drag the show for "using rape for shock value?" How much rape SHOULD it have?

And you conflate the show taking place in a sexist world with the show itself (which has multiple incredible roles for female leaders and assassins and knights and cunning/corrupt politicians and more) being sexist. Got it.

Anyway, here's an alternate take: https://www.bustle.com/articles/171...s-became-one-of-the-most-feminist-shows-on-tv

Okay. So my issue with Tyrion is that he's whitewashed to hell and back, and the most obvious example of this is removing his rapist tendencies. As for the show using rape for shock value, yeah, it does. Remember Craster's Keep, where women were being raped as backdrop? It's not to make a point about the horrors of war, it's just "shocking". Sansa only got shoved into Jeyne Poole's place so they could rape her and have it be "shocking". I'm not opposed to the depiction of rape, I'm opposed to the show's blasé treatment of it.

And secondly no, I'm not conflating, thanks. The books take place in a sexist world yet manage to not be sexist (most of the time; GRRM is not perfect, but he tries). The show is sexist as fuck. Aforementioned rape issues; fucking around female characters to accommodate male ones (e.g. Tyrion); the adherence and reinforcement of the toxically masculine ideal that to be violent is to be strong - this is evident not only in the female characters but in characters such as Sam as well.
 

aliengmr

Member
I really don't agree with any of this.

Honestly is seems like the OP missed the point and is only analyzing surface level stuff.

Dany burning the Khals (that want imprison her for life) is suddenly racist? She walked out of a fucking inferno, something like that would give me pause. But it also shows you the type of leader she is. Dany is inspiring, put a group of people in front of her and she'll have them worshipping her in no time. But when it comes to governing, she is shit. Long term, she's a terrible ruler, which honestly doesn't bode well for her.

Arya is ice cold. She became no one because she essentially got rid of whatever soul she had left. I adore Arya, but it won't end well for her. As for why the other girl hated her, well, that was the point all along. This wasn't about Arya joining a club, it was about her getting rid of the last sparks of humanity she had left.

None of these characters are meant to be "inspiring" or "empowering" to the audience, they are all flawed
except Jon
at best, and human filth at worst. You are supposed to have very strong, very visceral reactions to GoT and its characters. Which you have apparently, even if they may only be surface level.

Is GoT the story of our time? No, it's just entertaining TV. But when you can rip it into tiny pieces and analyze it like you have done means they actually did a good job.

Criticism isn't the bane of stories, it's apathy.
 

Layell

Member
Things in GoT that were great and adapted more-or-less straight from the books:
-Red Wedding
-Doran vs The Mountain
-Purple Wedding
-Season 1 in general

Things in GoT that were groan inducing, terribly written, and just happened to not have occurred in the books:
-Grey Worm romantic subplot
-Crush the beetles
-Karl Tanner, fookin legen' of Gin Alley

Thing good in GoT that were not in the books:
-Hardhome

I honestly don't mean to be some "book purist" but when the adaptations changes are more cringey than epic and interesting then I have a bit of a problem. I'm only watching the show because I don't think the final books will be released.
 

spootime

Member
OP I agree with your post with a few exceptions (the jetpack thing is invalid, no one wants to watch characters traveling around.)

If you've read the books its hard to divorce the show from them because the show takes huge steaming shits on a lot of characters without any real justification. Sometimes its somewhat justified - I think Tyrion is a more entertaining character in the show than in the books even though you lose some moral complexity. The worst two offenders in the show are Loras and Jaime. Why make Loras a gay caricature? It adds nothing to the show whatsoever. My favorite arc from the books is the one you mention OP, when Jaime throws away his letter after touring the riverlands resolving conflict. Instead we get a slapstick season of Jaime and the bad pussies.

Overall the show, in terms of characterization at least, is mediocre to outright awful at times. It isn't a coincidence that all the character arcs have taken a fucking nosedive as soon as they ran out of material to copy from the books.
 
I think you can, or at least I remember being way more invested and exited when reading the battle on helms deep or at the gates of mordor in TLotR than watching the movie version, it all depends on how good the writer is and if you are up to visualize scenes in your mind with the info you are reading.

I guess this thread is making me want to read the books, I'll guess its better to wait for the tv show though
What I'm trying to say is, even if I read words describing the gif I posted I will never have come up with that shot in my mind, not like that, that was just some magical well crafted shit.


Though I don't know why we are discussing book adaptations at this point, show will be over before the next book comes out (which is like wtf when?!?!)
 
Things in GoT that were great and adapted more-or-less straight from the books:
-Red Wedding
-Doran vs The Mountain
-Purple Wedding
-Season 1 in general

Things in GoT that were groan inducing, terribly written, and just happened to not have occurred in the books:
-Grey Worm romantic subplot
-Crush the beetles
-Karl Tanner, fookin legen' of Gin Alley

Thing good in GoT that were not in the books:
-Hardhome

I honestly don't mean to be some "book purist" but when the adaptations changes are more cringey than epic and interesting then I have a bit of a problem. I'm only watching the show because I don't think the final books will be released.

There were some great non-book moments in the first 2 seasons.

Roberts conversations with cersei, Jaimi and Selmy. Arya and Tywin.
 
What I'm trying to say is, even if I read words describing the gif I posted I will never have come up with that shot in my mind, not like that, that was just some magical well crafted shit.


Though I don't know why we are discussing book adaptations at this point, show will be over before the next book comes out (which is like wtf when?!?!)

There are many moments which hit deeper due to the added insight in the books.

The first one that springs to mind being the red wedding. Seeing it all from Caitlyn's perspective was heart wrenching.

'Not my hair, Ned loves my hair.'

It's heartbreaking.
 

Anung

Un Rama
The way the show handled Selmy was infuriatingly bad. Like I know for budgetary reasons you cant have him and Tyrion in the same role and he needs things to do but sidelining the character and ruining him was garbage. He never even got his badass speech :(
 
I admit season 5 wasn't great but did you "its getting worse" people watch season 6?? It was fantastic.

I repeat from the last page:

Jesus Christ I just remembered the
Blackfish's death
on the show.

What the fuck was that?

Who in the right mind thought that was acceptable writing? What the fuck were the character motivations there.

That moment in particular was just infuriating.

Then there's the Arya plotline, Sansa's plotline, Theon's plotline (despite Alfie being amazing), Kings Landing was a mess this season, Dany's plot line had an amazing pay off but dragged through the season. Jaimie needs to fucking get over Cersei already.
Tyrion agreeing to work with the family who murdered his niece, one of the few family members the show displayed him showing affection towards.
The whole
murdering of doran
. Littlefinger and Varys who were shown to be the two true powers in Westeros just completely marginalised.

I don't get the comments saying season 6 was a return to form. Outside of the final two episodes (although again, the payoffs in episode 10 came at the cost of shit writing) and hold the door the season was poor.

The white walker's origins were handled in a 30 second vision. The main antagonist of the entire series who have been a persistent force for centuries. Explained in a brief flash back.

There's a lot wrong with game of thrones season 6. Sorry for the rant, i got angry about
blackfish
and then spiralled.
 
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