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Game of Thrones Season 8 |OT| A Song of Icy and Fiery Fandom
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
MetalAlien
Banned
Men will not be allowed to steal the show from the rightful heir - the women you monster!
Dragon_Rocks
Member
Not in my workplace. There are about 12 people in my office who watch and discuss it during lunch time and everyone disliked the happenings and the darkness which made it very difficult to watch.
Watch Yara Greyjoy kill the Mountain by drowning him while Hound is hiding somewhere scared of some nearby fire because no body would expect it.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Are these examples of groupthink in action?
Who here has anecdotes of their various groups having members with different opinions? Or is it more common for GoT watching groups to gravitate towards similar opinions?
Halo is Back
Member
For your enjoyment
Kadayi
Banned
I think it more comes down to a lack of a growth mindset. I actively recall a lot of hardcore book fans constantly jeering about the early episodes of the show because certain details didn't live up to the grand fiction in their heads and flipping tables over the most trivial shit (there are no potatoes in Westeros!!!), whilst perpetually failing to understand that the show is an adaptation of ASOIAF and the very nature of Television as a medium and the experience of watching on a weekly basis is quite distinct from that of reading a book.
It's easy to pick holes in pretty much any episode of GOT if one wants to, and certainly, there are aspects of the show that I think the writers and directors could have done better (I agree with many that the Winterfell storyline last Season was sub-par for instance) but fixating on what-ifs that fundamentally would change the outcome of events is missing the point of the show in terms of the narrative beats. The battle for Winterfell was always going to come down to the wire for the North, with the castle falling and the Night King striding into the Godswood to confront Bran before being laid low.
Already posted earlier in the thread.
Halo is Back
Member
My bad this thread is huge now
Kadayi
Banned
My bad this thread is huge now
Well with previous seasons it was 'Whiners are coming' now we are in the final season 'Whiners are here'
autoduelist
Member
Arya teleports into thread, ignoring all 25 pages of previous comments, does a stupid dagger move, and kills thread dead. Every post here has been instantly rendered worthless. Go scream at dragons, peons, because you know nothing and your expectations have been fucking subverted.
Secret_Lover
Member
The overhead shot of the zombies charging into the frontline is hysterical. Our first line of defense against certain death? Trebuchets.
0/10
0/10
autoduelist
Member
You're absolutely right, the writer's sold out the integrity of their battle because they wanted a cool scene with fires going out. Sure, yep, that looked cool. But Dothraki are calvary. You do not suicide calvary. You either break lines and immediately follow up with infantry, or you use them to flank. They were thrown away.
Dont try to sell me Dothraki horse shit and tell me it was to make the story better. No. It did not. It turned the battle scene into hot garbage. Calvary, artillery, infantry, fire trench, and castle walls were all used terribly. This is supposed to be the most epic battle ever! And sure, many people won't care. But if you did it right, people like you would still love it, and so would people like me.
Airbus Jr
Banned
Has the biggest ground forces ever made
From Northerners alone...Starks...Karstarks....Vale..other northerns houses...Wildlings...Unsullied....Dothrakis...Greyjoy...
The undead forces alone exceed anything the seven kingdom could ever asemble...
Maybe not the most entertaining..for me blackwater, nightwatch vs wildlings, lanister vs dothraki, batle of bastard is more exciting
Everything there seems too dark imo...but when it comes to killcount and casualties ...yeah i think this is the biggest one...
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Ulysses 31
Member
And in the end the white walkers were defeated without the aid of Cersei's forces, in 1 battle. They didn't make it past Wnterfell. They look more like a joke now than the biggest threat of the show.
Airbus Jr
Banned
You didnt get the point
In order for the story to progress they have to win there
Its all or nothing
Contrary with other kingdom which forces gets weaker with every war..with every victories secured NK army will only grow stronger...
And this time with Winterfell lost NK will not just obtained additional zombie massess from jon, danny, and northern corpses but posibly 3 zombie dragon in his bags now
With Viserion alone he already look scary..imagine if he had Drogon and Rhaegal on his side too thats really fucked up man....
Even with Lannister + Golden Company joint forces i think thats too much to handle..
NK will most likely win there..gain more forces from lannister + gc corpses+ kings landing civilian.....and turn westeros into white walker continent..
And then NK will sit in the iron throne..and do absolutely nothing then ? Because i dont know..he never shows any other interest beside killing the living as far as it goes? Hes just a killing machine created by the children of the forrest to fight first humans
Not sure thats the ending everyones here wanted
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RedVIper
Banned
Dude you're a real fucking moron you know that.
You keep using "narrative beats" as it if it was fucking impossible to have good writing and still have the story play out the same, no you're right they're incompatible.
They *couldn't* have good writing, otherwise they would ruin the narrative beats, fucking lol.
The story would be ruined if they had trebuchets behind the walls, archers defending the castle, and Jon doing something else other than autisticly screeching at a dragon. These things where all necessary for the narrative beats.
Wtf does no face poster even mean? He doesn't have an avatar? What kind of insult is that?
Airbus Jr
Banned
I ve been watching episode 3 several times and i start to think differently now
People said Dothraki charges are stupid...so what else they should do? Its all their do best...theyre bound to die anyway..so let em die with their own way..
Even flanking movement wont do much different against that ridiculous mass amount of horde
It will only split their numbers in half..theyl eventually get roasted either way...
At first i thought the trebuchet placement are stupid....
but when im looking at it now...could posibly that is because jon value human lives more than artilery?
Look closely at how they positioned the trebuched in front of the unsullied
As if it made in purpose to give the passage to be narrower for the undead to reach the unsulied
Also..if the trebuchet are placed inside..there will much less room for the retreating soldier to get in...archers are there..and jons are there too with danny, maybe they fly...burn undead...take a rest..and then fly again while looking for the NK....i assume the dragon have limited stamina on how much they can breath fire too...
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strange headache
Banned
My impressions of this season so far:
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strange headache
Banned
Yes, which was in the finale of season 7.
Not more fighting, but smarter fighting. S08E03 had some nice scenes and pretty imagery, they certainly put a lot of effort into filming it, but the battle itself and the resolve were frikkin' dumb.
The defending forces basically defeated themselves.
Ulysses 31
Member
So you send of a big part of your army out of support range to die against an enemy that can raise the dead, don't you see how moronic that is? As for other ways to use them could be hit and run attacks, draw parts of the army away from winterfell, can't think of any worse thing they did other than them turning on their allies.
Airbus Jr
Banned
Cant use hit and run tactics there you see it yourself once you got overcrowded theres no turning back, jorah and few other riders are lucky to get back
You cant use calvary unit like dothraki rider as siege or phalanx unit formation it doesnt work that way
Draws part of the army away from winterfell and lead them to where?
Fighting outside the castle wall and fortifications theyre toast
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Ulysses 31
Member
They would run away before letting themselves get overcrowded, their mobility gives them a big advantage. The video of strange headache gives plenty of battle options for cavalry to use. Again, sending cavalry into darkness where they're cut off from support is so stupid.
Depending how much they can draw away, where ever they can be dealt with by the 100000 big Dothraki army, be it a trap, funneled towards area where the Dothraki have a bigger advantage, and then resume attacking the main army again. It was said somewhere that the undead army and living army were roughly equal in size(100k vs 130k). I don't know how big the "raise dead" spell range is of the white walker officers. To my knowledge, the Dothraki were given crap weapons to fight an undead army, another case of wtf were battle commanders thinking.
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RedVIper
Banned
The dothraki are great archers, they can shoot bows on horse back, have them do that. Hell anything is better than just suiciding, might aswell not bring them at all.
You're right flanking wouldn't do much because the army was too big, again see above.
That doesn't mean you just suicide thousands of people.
Then build a fucking trench, in front of your army, not behind, whats the point of building artilary if you're going to fire it once.
Fine, place the trebuchets behind the infantry at least, or dont bother at all building siege weapons if you're not going to use them.
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Javthusiast
Banned
Sorry we expected writing of seasons 1-4, instead of generic fantasy fan fic.
Airbus Jr
Banned
How are they supposed to run away from something like that ffs
give me a break have look at episode once again
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Airbus Jr
Banned
Dude it was total pitch black that episode was like at 03-04 AM before sunrise?
How are you supp to relly on archery there for the dothraki on the frontline? they cant see shit and aim for target
Archery are posible from the castle because they have enough lightning on the winterfelll castle
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Ulysses 31
Member
They shouldn't be running into things they don't see coming anyway. They run into the army, they can away from it, they're not surrounded at any point, it's called hit and run. How about you watch the video linked by strange headache, give yourself a break from defending utter dumb battle tactics.How are they supposed to run away from something like that ffs
give me a break look at episode once again
Airbus Jr
Banned
Seriously would love to see how you applied these hit and run tactics for the dothraki position
RedVIper
Banned
They aren't suposed to be on the frontline.
Do you know how horse archers were used in real life? It's also a massive horde they don't exactly need to be accurate, just shoot in a general direction.
This is not correct. Given what we see in the episode, the Night King army would have been easily beaten by real world strategies. Despite the sheer and utter stupidity displayed in the show they were still able to whittle the enemy dead to a point where Jon Snow and Jorah Mormont were free to walk on the outside and the enemy density on the inside just prior to the Night King resurrecting the dead was considerably lower as the living army remnants were fighting personal battles rather than being drowned by dead.
Had the army employed basic fortification strategies like pallisades and earthenworks to break up the enemy charge and use their own weight and momentum against them, proper formations like not putting your siege weapons on the front lines of infantry in front of the wall of flaming spikes, and keeping the mobile Dothraki army in reserve away from the battlefield, the dead would have been defeated despite their numerical superiority.
Instead we got a dumb storyline with forgettable combat because it was filler to ensure the handful of important key points took place. That being Arya ninja killing the Night King with Bran as bait.
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Airbus Jr
Banned
What do you mean they arent supposed to be on the frontline ? They re dothraki theyre always in the frontline
If not them then who else?
because someone has toShoot in general direction? Wouldnt that be useless for facing zombie type enemy? Thats ok if youre facing normal soldier but against zombies? They feeel no pain. Shouldnt you aim for vital part like heads or hearts?
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RedVIper
Banned
What do you mean they arent supposed to be on the frontline ? They re dothraki theyre always in the frontline
If not them then who else?
Let the unsulied sit behind a trench, have a shiton of archers on the walls firing arrows. The dothraki are held back and come in after the initial charge, they're light cavalary they're very much not a frontline.
Airbus Jr
Banned
You didnt paid attention in episode 3?
The unsullied are usefull to held back the retreating soldiers
If they re gone first nobody will have a chance to retreat
How is a dotraki not a frontline soldier?
Dotraki riders are the very definition of frontline attack, theyre the best at it
Watch season 7 again how they destroy the Lannisters
They only lost last episode because the number of undead horde are just insane/too much plus the white walker have couple giants at the front
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Ulysses 31
Member
So you would agree that putting cavalry at the front against an undead army you don't see approaching is big mistake?
You put soldiers and cavalry on the side or behind the castle, force the enemy to attack the castle first. The troops would be fighting close enough to the walls for archer support. Once the undead are focusing on the castle then you can have cavalry attack from the side or maybe even behind with hit and run attacks. And that's ignoring all the damage the dragons could be inflicting at that point.
Seriously, you keep ignoring the video posted by strange headache, it lays out well why the battle tactics in the episode are dumb.
Look, you could still have the undead army ultimately be on the winning side despite the living employing smart battle tactics. That would've made the undead army even more fearful IMHO without making the living look dumb just for a few cool looking shots.
Airbus Jr
Banned
If they do that the undead will invade the castel much sooner
The swarm will soon pile up faster...more bodies and reach the upper part of the wall
and when that happens they gona be surounded from every direction
Someone have to stay outside to wipe out the initial wave
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RedVIper
Banned
In my version nobody has to retreat because they're all inside the castle already shooting arrows, that's what castles are for.
The dotraki are inspired by the Mongolian army, they're very much not front line soldiers, they're light cavalary, they win trough mobility and numbers, they would get completly destroyed going agaisnt a infantry pike formation. (Wich is why the mongolians used fucking arrows, because they knew they'd fucking die if they just charge at infantry.
They catch the lannisters off guard and they outnumber them a lot, not to mention they have a dragon breaking lannister lines so the dothraki are able to get inside the lannister formation.
If they charged at a prepared army the dothraki would get slaughthered, like they just did.
Airbus Jr
Banned
And where are you getting this information from?
How do you suggest the dothraki are fighting all these years?
My question is what will happened next when the zombied already pilled up and suround the castle? Everyone will be a sitting duck inside
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CrankyJay™
Member
Yeah, I had the same observation about the speed being unstoppable to slow as molasses.
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RedVIper
Banned
The dothraki have been fighting in essos all their lifes, have they ever faced a westeros army?
They used horse archers and light cavalry when fighting sellswords in essos,but they mostly pillaged villages, the dothraki aren't exactly out there fighting roman legions.
They got fucking slaughtered fighting Unsullied, 20 thousand dothraki defeated, because they charged 3000 men of infantry, you'd think they have learned it's not a viable option.
That's what castles are for, you have archers defending the walls, oil to burn anyone that tried to climb, rocks, etc.
They're much bigger sitting ducks outside.
Malakhov
Banned
Man the last week been so fun reading all these nerds debating about war strategies and being pissed off Arya was the one to get to the night king.
Last few years with star wars, game of thrones and mcu, it's been hilarious to notice there's always a very small and loud annoying minority bitching about everything lol
Last few years with star wars, game of thrones and mcu, it's been hilarious to notice there's always a very small and loud annoying minority bitching about everything lol
Ulysses 31
Member
Seeing as living should be fighting defensively and not offensively, they wouldn't have given the undead army 100k free soldiers to be raised and used against them at the start of the battle. The initial undead wave would've been much less and they wouldn't be pilling up the wall as fast also because they would be engaged by the troops in front of the wall and archers on the wall. The dragons could burn down a lot of them with each pass as the undead are trying to pile on the troops defending the castle, stemming the tide enough for the defenders. The 100K Dothraki in range of support this time could absolutely hold the undead army in place long enough for the dragons to make a few air strikes. The armies were relatively the same size, with proper battle tactics and the "charge" mentality of the undead, they could've survived the initial caste attack and work towards preventing the undead officers from reviving their army.
RedVIper
Banned
You're right star wars was actually amazing.
Kadayi
Banned
Considering the depth of your criticism throughout this thread amounts to little more than 'the writing was shit' ad infinitum I don't particularly put much stock in your shallow opinions (least of all about me.) in a thread that has a clear subject in the title.
If only I'd actually said any of that, versus your perverse hysterical interpretation.
(Cathy Newman much?) I'm all for criticising execution, but when the proposed "solutions" from the critics such as your self are either unfeasible (Winterfell isn't actually that large a castle to house everyone) or simply don't work with the emotive beats of the narrative it simply becomes an exercise in fanfic facepalm, wherein you're trying to strategically win a battle, that runs counter to the how the story is supposed to run and pay off.It's not an insult its an observation drawn from being on this forum for a long time and recognising familiar patterns in poster behaviour. If people are too lazy to get an avatar, they're generally lazy across the board. I mean jeez, the guy quoted me, but nothing of what he wrote, actually addressed anything I'd said in terms of the full post about narrative beats versus instead meandering into how the Dothraki 'Calvary' (
) should be deployed ( according to him) because a straight charge is a no-no, despite the fact that we'd already witnessed the Dothraki attack actual organised infantry on mass directly and prevail before in the previous season. . The Army of the dead might be numerous but they're not exactly organising a shield wall when all is said and done. Still looking for a way for the Dothraki to prevail is missing the point. It's like getting irate over the fact that Rickon ran in a straight line in the battle of the bastards.
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RedVIper
Banned
The depth of your defense for the criticism amounts to "it was necessary for the plot", my whole argument is that doesn't make it suddenly good.
If only I'd actually said any of that, versus your perverse hysterical interpretation.
Winterfell is the biggest castle in the north, spanning several acres, even if you couldn't fit everyone inside, I'm sure you could have a lot of them in there, instead all the armies where deployed outside only to retreat as a soon as the battle started suffering massive casualties.
Again you're trying to justify dumb tactical plans by saying it was necessary for the narrative, when it clearly wasn't. I'm not trying to argue that they should win the fight, I'm saying it would have been better if they had done everything in their power to win and putt up a fight, and still lost, think that would make a much better narrative than what we got.
He's significantly more active on the forum than you are, dismissing an user because "he doesn't have an avatar" is dumber than the tactical plans employed last episode.
You win man, he made a typo, gg.I mean jeez, the guy quoted me, but nothing of what he wrote, actually addressed anything I'd said in terms of the full post about narrative beats versus instead meandering into how the Dothraki 'Calvary' (
The dragon won, the lannister soldiers were doing extremely well despite being caught off guard and being severely outnumbered, they weren't "organized infantry" like you are claiming, like I said the dothraki have previous experiences of charging against infantry and getting slaughtered. (Because that's what happens when light cavalry charges against infantry)despite the fact that we'd already witnessed the Dothraki attack actual organized infantry on mass directly and prevail before in the previous season.
Rickon running in a line is dumb, but he's a stupid kid. This battle plan was made by experienced commanders and soldiers. Nobody is saying they had to win, again, putting up a fight before you lose would make for a better story IMO.
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MetalAlien
Banned
Pack it up guys, we're not allowed to discuss the shows direction or lack thereof anymore. Malakhov ruined it.
Kadayi
Banned
Not what I've said.
In the books perhaps, but not in the show. When the season begins they show you how many troops etc are camping outside. Winterfell is first and foremost a castle, not a medieval City with walls. The idea that they could cram everyone and the horses in there, is a non-starter.
Again not what I said.
OK, then feel free to write out a detailed outline as to how you'd have structured the episode and the tactics, but still ended up with the same beats taking place. Do a good job and I'll gift you a months Gold membership.
Please, he 99% of his posts are just endlessly arguing in the Politics subforum with the usual suspects in a circle jerk. A subforum that was created so the rest of us don't have to put up with Gaming or OT being subjected to endless Reee threads. If an autoduelist falls down in a forest and nobody (Important) is in earshot does anyone in Gaming or OT care?
Please, beyond the initial breach the Dragon mainly took out the supply wagons and the archers. The Dothraki were getting over the shield wall regardless. Certainly, the Dragon helped out, but to lay the victory purely at its feet rather than the Dothrakis prowess for kicking ass is just plain wrong.
Sure they had a plan, and so did the Night King, and but for Arya Stark, his would have prevailed.
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