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[Rentahamster]

IIRC these were the firstborn sons of the former masters. They're not necessarily guilty of any crimes themselves, merely suspicion. Yet the prescription is Dragonfire

There's a big difference between slavers and terrorists vs. slaves and civilians, which the show points out often enough. Yet, you still want to cherrypick a few scenes to prove your point and ignore the great number of other scenes that disprove your point.

Dany went from liberator to madman inn 2 episodes because the showrunners had to wrap up the show quickly. Not because they cleverly built up a plausible road to madness over many seasons.

 

[EviLore]

These were my thoughts back in 2017 during season 7, re: Dany's fitness for rule, relevant today.

Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]

I meant marrying Bran specifically, and especially the way he's been acting. Plus I'm pretty sure Bran is gonna become one with a tree fairly soon, like the last three-eyed-raven. "I'll never be lord of anything". His marriage would mean nothing. Unless out of nowhere it turns out Meera loved...

www.neogaf.com

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Dany is pretty good at being queen. And she's made it a point to not be like her father recently. She could have just killed Jon Snow... like everyone thought she would. I have zero doubt that Cersei would've killed him.

I really just blame Tyrion for everything that's gone wrong.

"Jon wouldn't have strolled over to Cersei and disarmed himself. They're mortal enemies and she's plainly established as the least honorable leader in Westeros. Hundreds of years of political stability went down the drain with Aerys's reign, but his madness wasn't even the impetus for the rebellion, just a great excuse to see it through. Cersei, on the other hand, tries to outdo Aerys's legacy before breakfast every morning at this point. Treating with her would be suicide at best, and handing leverage against the north with two scoops of torture as a hostage if she could even manage to restrain her present all-encompassing murder lust.

He takes this chance with Dany because she's a wild card -- the only one one the board at this point -- and he's operating on the assumption that the world is over if he doesn't secure major support before the Long Night. Dany has a just rep for trying to clean up Slaver's Bay, and should have little motive for roasting him on the spot during a diplomatic call unless she's truly mad; even if she does, the outcome doesn't get any worse. It's a totally sensible calculated risk, and going in person is the best way for him to emphasize the sincerity and grave importance of his mission. If Maester Aemon were alive and healthy enough, he could have had a reputable corroborating witness and Dany's blood relative with him to help with the whole "soooo, there are these ice gods and their zombie servants and they're marching quickly and tirelessly but somehow also very, very slowly south to erase humanity..." but he has no such advantages. Just straight-shooting Davos Speechworth to smooth over Jon's bluntness and obvious preference for redheads.

Right, so we get to the big meet, and Dany "could have" torched Jon Snow, King of the United North, arriving on a peaceful diplomatic call, I guess? Though there would be devastating political ramifications and would become a hell of a hard sell to the Seven Kingdoms afterwards unless she planned to torch the whole continent instead of forging trustworthy alliances, but despite that she still huffs and puffs as though Jon's one insolent word away from being fed to her dragons until Varys's news shifts the power dynamics and forces her to back down. It's not a good look for her, as usual.

She's only a "good queen" compared to some historically abysmal recent examples, and has not demonstrated capable leadership or sound judgment very often; she's just usually rewarded for bad decisions as opposed to everyone else on the show. Dany's little more than a posturing, entitled messianic conqueror reliant on her privilege dragons, her (TV) fire immunity, her thirst entourage (RIP Bold Barry though), and her "freed" slaves (who are not equipped at all, no pun intended, to exercise that alleged freedom, and function no differently; freeing them was for Dany's benefit, not theirs, if it didn't come with viable alternatives to serving her beyond just the words).

She's still supposed to be young, yes (so is Jon), and she's learning on the job, sure (so is Jon), but if she were finally thrust into a position of real Westerosi political power...let's say winning the Iron Throne, after 7 seasons of intense experience and on-the-job training and thoughtful advisory leading up, but minus her dragon "I win" buttons for any otherwise insurmountable roadblocks like back in Essos, and swapping out her brainwashed Unsullied and Dothraki for very different Westerosi liege lords with their own real interests and goals to navigate and power struggles to contend with, and without setting the throne room on fire every week while hanging out inside and selling tickets to the show to affirm her Destined Unburnt Goddess status to everyone around her constantly....where does that leave her exactly?

Stamping her feet about what she Deserves as the Rightful Heir to the Seven Kingdoms and threatening to set people or entire kingdoms on fire if they don't prostrate themselves thoroughly or convincingly enough? As far as optics she's a foreign invader, she's a spoiled brat who has no idea what she's doing and failed upward, and comes at every problem with a compulsive and vapid/implausible/cruel initial plan that's usually countermanded in its entirety by one of her desperately necessary advisers. Then she changes her mind on the spot and does whatever her adviser says instead (even when that's not necessarily a good call either, as per the Casterly Rock junk). Is this supposed to earn her a gold star for Queenship? Lyanna Mormont demonstrated much more about leadership with much less.

It's always important to have good advisers and to listen to their advice. The problem there, too, is that her advisers all drop themselves into her lap on their own, rather than being selected by her, and that she doesn't take their input so much as she completely displaces her own positions in favor of theirs. None of this demonstrates her leadership qualities.

She's been playing on Essos Easy Mode as far as it applies to Westeros and she has no business sitting the Iron Throne. Fortunately she doesn't have the birthright, either. I assume the showrunners will do something stupid, though. ;b"

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[strange headache]

I frikkin' called it, Daenerys was going to rampage King's landing and Jaime would fight Euron and crawl back to Cersei. Meh... I really would have preferred to be wrong about that. Episode 5 was visually spectacular with Drogon decimating Euron's fleet and the Red Keep, but it really didn't grip me like the show used to do in the past. The last two episodes did way too much damage to keep me invested. Here are some of my main gripes:

No consistency!

In one episode Eurons' fleet and ballistae/scorpions are way overpowered, only to be destroyed in one swift fiery breath in the next. It felt like a bad Dragon Ball episode where the hero's and villain's power-levels vary in function of the script's dramaturgical needs. Either Drogon ate a magic bean or Euron received a major unknown debuff. Also, the Unsullied and the Dothraki seem to have quickly multiplied over night as they stormed King's Landing without much resistance after being brutally decimated by the Night King. Episode 4 made it seem as if Cersei and Euron easily had the upper hand, so I was looking forward to Tyrion's and Varys' cunning plan to take the Red Keep. Turns out, they didn't have a plan as they just defeated Cersei through Drogon's raw power alone.

Lord Varys' death was pointless!

Why was Varys burned to a crisp? Like, did that really need to happen? He promised Daenerys to always speak his mind and be honest with her and for that he had to pay with his dear life. Again, why? Only because he wanted to leak the truth about Jon's heritage? Varys wanted to prevent a mindless slaughter and even if the truth would be known, what would that change? Jon already bent his knee and Daenerys is set to rule with an iron fist anyway. It's not like the people have a say in that matter anyway if Daenerys is just going to burn them to a crisp if they dare question her throne. Besides, Jon already told Sansa who doesn't like Daenerys very much anyway. Varys has no more cards to play, no secret to tell and was absolutely powerless to influence anything of what happened after his death. Varys needed to die because... well... because... uhm... because the writers decided so.

Correction: As explained below, Varys tried to poison Daenerys, but that doesn't make it any better. See my explanation below.

Jon Snow is pussywhipped!

What the hell happened to Jon? I know he always had a weak spot for women, especially red haired Wildlings, but to just stand by while Daenerys is mercilessly killing Varys is absolutely ridiculous. Varys even told Jon that he would make a fine king and pledged his allegiance to him not 5 minutes before Jon let him die. He is reduced to absolute passivity only because "she is muh queen". Well f*ck that, you know nothing Jon Snow!

Tyrion is becoming dumber and dumber!

In the episode before, he agreed with Varys that taking King's Landing by force was a bad idea, mostly because it would turn the people against her. Slaughtering thousands of innocent peasants is a bad way to usher in your regency. He frikkin' knows that Daenerys is driven by grief and anger but is unable to question his loyalty and tells her about Varys instead. He even tried to convince Daenerys to heed Varys' council after he watched his friend die. For crying out loud Tyrion, you used to be way smarter than that.

The Cleganebowl was anticlimactic!

I've gotta admit, the whole scene looked nice, but there were no stakes in that fight. Wouldn't have mattered if both of them lived, only one of them died or if both died. There was not a whole lot of narrative tension in that fight because it was reduced to an unimportant side-spectacle. The Hound is one of the most interesting characters and certainly deserved better than that.

Jaime never learns!

Jaime had some of the best character development, but it's amazing to see how one single episode manages to undo 8 seasons of the show. Tyrion just betrays his "queen" after watching Varys die for doing the same in order to let his brother crawl back to Cersei and give them a chance to escape. Well screw that!

Daenerys has always been a dumb broad!

The only thing that's consistent with the previous seasons is that Daenerys has always been a power hungry, vindictive and petty b*tch. The only redeeming aspect of that episode is that they finally managed to show who she really is. Her whole speech about "mercy being their strength" was just so utterly stupid and cringe-worthy by this point. I'm glad to finally see her go down in flames because time and time again she has shown to be an unfit ruler.

Conclusion

Honestly, the whole episode was all over the place and keeps up being wildly inconsistent with its characters and own build-up. Most of the dialogue felt really contrived and made little sense in context. The action was decent, the visuals were amazing, but I didn't really "feel" it as most of the protagonists are so erratic, it's hard to sympathize with them. Except for Daenerys everybody is acting so out of character, it's like watching complete strangers. As such, it's amazing how little the show manages to keep you invested after having followed these characters for 8 frikkin' years.

 

[Raynes]

This episode made me go back to Season 1 to watch Viserys. I loved that guy.



Once Viserys was gone, Dany's bits throughout the show travelling around and trying to win over people always gave me a headache. Absolutely fucking boring, reptitive and cringey. They showed her doing evil things but then presented her as some Disney princess. So even when it was all following the books, her bits was shit.

Another character shoved down our throats that I never cared for at all was Arya. Without The Hound her story was boring. Then they tried to make her into a badass. D&D only seem to know one female archetype: badass ruthless dominant edgy female. When men in this show are ruthless and unforgiving they are punished, but when women are like this, they are rewarded.

 

[Jon Neu]

So, one saying about the Targ family = established character development, while 7 seasons of her actually doing stuff like punishing her enemies and protecting the innocent gets overridden by all that?

The funny thing is that one of her motivations for being good was always to get away from his father legacy, to show the world that she wasn't another crazy Targaryen. Even her being good had everything to do with the Targaryen madness.

And again, you are ignoring deliberately all the shady things she had done through all seasons.

If you're "totally fine" with my complaints that her decent into madness was rushed, then why are you still making counterpoints to irrelevant things?

Because one thing is thinking that was not well executed, and the other thing is saying that all the Targaryen lore wasn't established, that all was hamfisted just now when this is actually a pretty important point since the beginning of the show/books and there has been an important number of clues hinting at this through all the show/books.

 

[EviLore]

strange headache Varys was attempting to poison Dany's food via his little bird, and made it clear that he was planning an assassination/coup to Tyrion, and to a lesser extent Jon. The little bird told him that her poison attempts had failed and that she suspected she was being watched. Dany found out about the plot and wasn't eating.

 

[Kadayi]

There's a big difference between slavers and terrorists vs. slaves and civilians, which the show points out often enough. Yet, you still want to cherrypick a few scenes to prove your point and ignore the great number of other scenes that disprove your point.

Dude, Danys go to move generally involves fire & Blood. It's only her councillors that ever keep her violent tendencies in check.

Dany went from liberator to madman in 2 episodes because the showrunners had to wrap up the show quickly. Not because they cleverly built up a plausible road to madness over many seasons.

Who exactly are you hoping to convince at this juncture? You've been called out a number of times throughout the day by many other posters. Maybe walk away from the thread for a day, do something else and get some perspective on matters.

 

[Rentahamster]

And again, you are ignoring deliberately all the shady things she had done through all seasons.

And you are deliberately ignoring how all those "shady" things she has done had a logical consistency to them (punish the enemies, protect the innocent), as well as all of her attempts to do the right thing.

It's not good writing to throw out that character development in the span of 2 episodes.

Because one thing is thinking that was not well executed, and the other thing is saying that all the Targaryen lore wasn't established, that all was hamfisted just now when this is actually a pretty important point since the beginning of the show/books and there has been an important number of clues hinting at this through all the show/books.

Staking your claim that deciding the whims of a character's actions on a divine coin flip is not good writing, and is definitely hamfisted.

Arguing that this is just Targs being Targs, when bringing up the books is particularly odd, considering we have a much more detailed look at Targ history after Fire and Blood came out.

 

[ruvikx]

Jon Snow is pussywhipped!

What the hell happened to Jon? I know he always had a weak spot for women, especially red haired Wildlings, but to just stand by while Daenerys is mercilessly killing Varys is absolutely ridiculous. Varys even told Jon that he would make a fine king and pledged his allegiance to him not 5 minutes before Jon let him die. He is reduced to absolute passivity only because "she is muh queen". Well f*ck that, you know nothing Jon Snow!

Jon Snow wasn't prepared for what happened. He was really in a "you know nothing" moment. He's been fighting wildlings, white walkers & others up north his entire life. He had no idea the sweet lover he'd been bedding (who also helped him defeat the white walkers) would turn into a monster. He once killed traitors himself (he also didn't know Varys at all personally) so he was like "whatever", but the look on his face when Drogon burned Varys did suggest a level of "wtf-ism". After watching her scorch Lings Landing & being part of the aggressor force in spite of himself, lesson learned. There's still one episode left & I'm certain shit will hit the fan between Jon & Daenerys.

 

[vpance]

There's a big difference between slavers and terrorists vs. slaves and civilians, which the show points out often enough. Yet, you still want to cherrypick a few scenes to prove your point and ignore the great number of other scenes that disprove your point.

Dany went from liberator to madman inn 2 episodes because the showrunners had to wrap up the show quickly. Not because they cleverly built up a plausible road to madness over many seasons.

Cersei killed her BFF and her child in front of her all on the same day. That's fucked. Even in real life most regular people would either immediately go insane or retaliate without abandon.

If there's any quick turns of plot or characters to criticize, I would say her's is far from being one of the main ones.

 

[Rentahamster]

Dude, Danys go to move generally involves fire & Blood. It's only her councillors that ever keep her violent tendencies in check.

Fire and Blood, yes, in the context of punishing her enemies and protecting the innocent. You don't get the title "Breaker of Chains" by slaughtering civilians for no reason.

And why do people always keep on bringing up her advisors? Do they ever adviser her against genociding civilians? No, because she's never shown an inclination to do such a thing.

Who exactly are you hoping to convince at this juncture? You've been called out a number of times throughout the day by many other posters. Maybe walk away from the thread for a day, do something else and get some perspective on matters.

If you'd rather not discuss this anymore, feel free. What does it matter how many posters I've been "called out" by? Good. Call me out. Talk about the show. That's what we're all here for, are we not?

 

[strange headache]

strange headache Varys was attempting to poison Dany's food via his little bird, and made it clear that he was planning an assassination/coup to Tyrion, and to a lesser extent Jon. The little bird told him that her poison attempts had failed and that she suspected she was being watched. Dany found out about the plot and wasn't eating.

Ooh, so that's what that scene was about! Well that certainly would give Daenerys a reason to kill Varys. Thanks for the clarification.

But still, it's a dumb plan because Varys has nothing to gain from this. Well, except for preventing a merciless slaughter, which only makes me root all the more for Varys and despise Tyrion's and Jon's blind loyalty towards Daenerys. Turns out, the only one who tried to do something good is the one being burned alive by those who we are supposed to empathize with. I'm finding it hard to believe that Varys would be so careless, but then again they did the same thing to Littlefinger.

It's especially ironic considering that Tyrion killed his own father and king for much less than what Daenerys is about to do.

 

[Kadayi]

Fire and Blood, yes, in the context of punishing her enemies and protecting the innocent. You don't get the title "Breaker of Chains" by slaughtering civilians for no reason.

The inherent problem here is you seem to have a sliding scale of what 'innocent' means. You're either guilty of a crime or you're not. The only crime those sons possessed in the clip I posted is the crime of having been born to masters.

And why do people always keep on bringing up her advisors? Do they ever adviser her against genociding civilians? No, because she's never shown an inclination to do such a thing.

She was pretty much going to attack kings landing straight away when she first arrived.

If you'd rather not discuss this anymore, feel free. What does it matter how many posters I've been "called out" by? Good. Call me out. Talk about the show. That's what we're all here for, are we not?

Denial isn't a conversation

 

[Jon Neu]

No consistency!

In one episode Eurons' fleet and ballistae/scorpions are way overpowered, only to be destroyed in one swift fiery breath in the next. It felt like a bad Dragon Ball episode where the hero's and villain's power-levels vary in function of the script's dramaturgical needs. Either Drogon ate a magic bean or Euron received a major unknown debuff. Also, the Unsullied and the Dothraki seem to have quickly multiplied over night as they stormed King's Landing without much resistance after being brutally decimated by the Night King. Episode 4 made it seem as if Cersei and Euron easily had the upper hand, so I was looking forward to Tyrion's and Vary's cunning plan to take the Red Keep. Turns out, they didn't have a plan as they just defeated Cersei through Drogon's raw power alone.

Rhaegal was taken by surprise (invisible magic ships), he was alredy injured and he didn't have a raider guiding him.

Drogon is far more stronger than Rhaegal or Viserion and Danny has become quite the expert dragon rider at this point.

Lord Varys' death was pointless!

Why was Varys burned to a crisp? Like, did that really need to happen? He promised Daenerys to always speak his mind and be honest with her and for that he had to pay with his dear life. Again, why? Only because he wanted to leak the truth about Jon's heritage? Varys wanted to prevent a mindless slaughter and even if the truth would be known, what would that change? Jon already bent his knee and Daenerys is set to rule with an iron fist anyway. It's not like the people have a say in that matter anyway if Daenerys is just going to burn them to a crisp if they dare question her throne. Besides, Jon already told Sansa who doesn't like Daenerys very much anyway. Varys has no more cards to play, no secret to tell and was absolutely powerless to influence anything of what happened after his death. Varys needed to die because... well... because... uhm... because the writers decided so.

Varys tried to poison Dany, that was the point of his scene with that little girl. I think that alone deserves a death penalty, without even bearing in mind his treason against Dany's crown aspiration.

Varys knew Aerys the mad king and he totally saw his daughter becoming the mad queen. He just wanted to prevent the carnage even when that would put his own life at risk.

Ironically, he has been the only character to really care about the people and the realm.

Tyrion is becoming dumber and dumber!

In the episode before he agreed with Varys that taking King's Landing by force was a bad idea, mostly because it would turn the people against her. Slaughtering thousands of innocent peasants is a bad way to usher in your regency. He frikkin' knows that Daenerey is driven by grief and anger but is unable to question his loyalty and even tells her about Varys. He even tried to convince Daenerys to heed Varys' council after he watched his friend die. For crying out loud Tyrion, you used to be way smarter than that.

Tyrion doesn't have the experience Varys had, he still believed in Dany and he had to choose between Varys life or Dany's. He had no other option.

Jaime never learns!

Jaime had some of the best character development, but it's amazing to see how one single episode manages to undo 8 seasons of the show. Tyrion just betrays his "queen" after watching Varys die for doing the same in order to let his brother crawl back to Cersei and give them a chance to escape. Well screw that!

I don't think Jaime's arc should have ended in any other way but with Cersei crying in his arms. Jaime's arc is one of the best, precisely because it ends with him realizing he belongs with Cersei.

Tyrion gave his brother the same gift his brother gave to him, the scene was beautiful and brought closure to their relationship. Tyrion cares about Jaime, but also he even cares about Cersei. I loved the relationship between those three.

Jon Snow is pussywhipped!

What the hell happened to Jon? I know he always had a weak spot for women, especially red haired Wildlings, but to just stand by while Daenerys is mercilessly killing Varys is absolutely ridiculous. Varys even told Jon that he would make a fine king and pledged his allegiance to him not 5 minutes before Jon let him die. He is reduced to absolute passivity only because "she is muh queen". Well f*ck that, you know nothing Jon Snow!

Varys tried to treason and poison not only his queen, but his love.

Killing Varys was justified. You can't forgive those crimes. Jon himself executed children for the same crime.

The Cleganebowl was anticlimactic!

I've gotta admit, the whole scene looked nice, but there were no staked in that fight. Wouldn't have mattered if both of them lived, only one of them died or if both died. There was not a whole lot of narrative tension in that fight because it was reduced to an unimportant side-spectacle. The Hound is one of the most interesting characters and certainly deserved better than that.

On that we agree.

Except for Daenerys everybody is acting so out of character, it's like watching complete strangers.

And ironically, we were arguing about how Daenerys apparently is so out of her character

 

[entremet]

The big theme here seems to be that vengeance corrupts. It corrupted Sandor, which why he warns Arya to avoid his path. It's corrupted Dany.

Jon whole arc is one where he ends the cycle of violence. He did it with the Wildlings. He did with Ramsey. Remember, Ramsey invaded Winterfell, destabilizing the North.

And now Jon seems to be poised end the cycle violence created by Dany. I don't know anything about the leaks, so my comments are not light of those. Just my predictions.

 

[Raynes]

The big theme here seems to be that vengeance corrupts. It corrupted Sandor, which why he warns Arya to avoid his path. It's corrupted Dany.
Jon whole arc is one where he ends the cycle of violence. He did it with the Wildlings. He did with Ramsey. And he seems to be poised to do it now.

Except Arya eliminated the whole of House Frey and literally cooked up Walder's children and served it to him before killing him. She also brutally murdered Meryn Trant. She was rewarded for it #badassbitch slaying the Night King 2 save da day. Women in this show are rewarded for their unforgiving brutality.

 

[Rentahamster]

The inherent problem here is you seem to have a sliding scale of what 'innocent' means. You're either guilty of a crime or you're not. The only crime those sons possessed in the clip I posted is the crime of having been born to masters.

Feeding one dude to her dragons, a dude who is keeper of a long history of slavery, and who might be a conspirator in terrorism? This is your one example you point to to show that Dany being A-OK with genociding civilians makes sense? Please.

You ignore her specifically recruiting the Unsullied because they are not like normal armies and won't rape and pillage unless commanded to.
You ignore her punishing the slavers, making explicit orders to spare the civilians, and then freeing the slaves.
You ignore her going out of her way to explain to the enemy armies how she is not a homicidal maniac like Cersei.
You ignore her making sacrifices for the good of the human race, and putting aside her own ambitions for the greater good.

The preponderance of actions in favor of your point of view is not on your side. Maybe if we had another season that fleshed out her turn to the darkside, that would be better writing. But we got a coin flip "welp I'm a bad guy now lol" heel turn in 2 episodes, and that is not good writing.

She was pretty much going to attack kings landing straight away when she first arrived.

Umm..



"I will not attack King's Landing"
"I will not be queen of the ashes"


lol

Denial isn't a conversation

I'm sourcing plenty of counterpoints to your few and weakly sourced points. That's a conversation.

 

[Jon Neu]

And you are deliberately ignoring how all those "shady" things she has done had a logical consistency to them (punish the enemies, protect the innocent), as well as all of her attempts to do the right thing.

I'm not ignoring that, that's precisely how you disguise a villain descend into tyranny in plain sight, by pretending that she is doing evil things but they are really not evil because she is doing it for good reasons.

That's why so many people bought her to be good, even when she ordered to crucify innocents alive (like Hizdahr's father) or when she burned alive the Tarlys or all the times when she acted like she was a Godess above everybody else, which is basically her entire arc.

Staking your claim that deciding the whims of a character's actions on a divine coin flip is not good writing, and is definitely hamfisted.

Establishing history and how that history influentiates and shapes the present, is absolutely good writing.

Arguing that this is just Targs being Targs, when bringing up the books is particularly odd, considering we have a much more detailed look at Targ history after Fire and Blood came out.

Again, this isn't something new, this was pretty well established since the beginning of booth the books and the show.

Hell, the script of this season was finalized months before Fire & Blood came out, even. This is what GRRM had in mind since the beginning and that's why he left all the foreshadowing for it.

 

[Blood Borne]

How can there be a better world without those who have the courage to fight for one?

Throughout the series these characters have seen their own faults and recognized their capacity for evil.

A hero is not someone who thinks they can do no wrong, but someone who recognizes their faults and fights to overcome them in pursuit of something better. When you stare into the darkness of your heart, a hero doesn't just resign themselves to it. Rather they strive to make the light shine brighter.

That's why this ending is so unbelievable. It throws away all of the development we have seen them go through and shits on the very world they hoped to create.

I'm all for a well written tragedy. As impressive as this episode was cinematically, this ain't that.

Isn’t that the story of most tyrants?
Virtually every tyrant started with good intention.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. She has absolute power, what did you think was going to happen?
People need to understand that there is no such thing as a benevolent dictator. It’s an oxymoron. Having power over people is inherently evil. But do-gooders are too blind to see that due to their moral absolutism. Mankind has witnessed the same story ad nauseam yet some people will always believe that “this time, it will be different”.

 

[strange headache]

Thanks for the decent reply, not sure if I agree though.

Rhaegal was taken by surprise (invisible magic ships), he was alredy injured and he didn't have a raider guiding him. Drogon is far more stronger than Rhaegal or Viserion and Danny has become quite the expert dragon rider at this point.

Eh, that feels like lazy writing. Rhaegal too injured to "see" a fleet from high above? Drogon didn't see them either? Also, the power difference seems to be way out of line if Drogon is so much stronger than his siblings. Apart from being Daenery's personal mount, is that ever established in the show?

It's not that I can't accept the explanation, it just feels like a cheap cop out in order to have Cersei seem like having the upper hand in the episode before.

Ironically, he has been the only character to really care about the people and the realm.

Indeed, which makes it very hard for me to keep being invested in the show if everybody else has turned into absolute moronic evil and self-serving bumholes. I can accept good people doing evil because they are misguided, but don't expect me to empathize with them if they cats all their good intentions aside. Why let Tyrion go through all these hardships and have Jon face evil across the wall, when it's all for nothing really?

Tyrion doesn't have the experience Varys had, he still believed in Dany and he had to choose between Varys life or Dany's. He had no other option.

I find that hard to believe, after all his cunning and intelligence are Tyrion's main attribute. He knew that Daenerys was going mad, he even admitted to that, yet kept playing her stupid game.

Tyrion gave his brother the same gift his brother gave to him, the scene was beautiful and brought closure to their relationship. Tyrion cares about Jaime, but also he even cares about Cersei. I loved the relationship between those three.

Not sure if I'm on board with all this "blood is thicker than water" Mumbo Jumbo. If people, even your own family, are crossing the line, you owe it to them to speak up and tell them the truth. If he truly loved his brother, he should have talked some sense into him.

Varys tried to treason and poison not only his queen, but his love.

Please, they barely know each other. There's like absolutely no chemistry between them and they both distrust each other deeply as shown by this episode.

And ironically, we were arguing about how Daenerys apparently is so out of her character

Which I find rather surprising considering that I never liked Daenerys. She always struck me as emotionally unstable, obsessively power hungry and petty. Her advisers were the only thing keeping her somewhat in line.

 

[mcjmetroid]

I'll never understand how this series of game of thrones gets so much hate. People are acting like Rian Johnson wrote it or something, some people literally saying it.

That was one of the most exciting episodes of TV I've ever seen.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm not ignoring that, that's precisely how you disguise a villain descend into tyranny in plain sight, by pretending that she is doing evil things but they are really not evil because she is doing it for good reasons.

That's why so many people bought her to be good, even when she ordered to crucify innocents alive (like Hizdahr's father) or when she burned alive the Tarlys or all the times when she acted like she was a Godess above everybody else, which is basically her entire arc.

How is punishing traitors, enemies, and terrorists evil? Robert did it. Robb did it. Eddard did it. Jon did it. Sansa did it. Arya did it. Are they all foreshadowed to be secret assholes too?

Crucifying the masters, who is an organization that promotes slavery, is not the same as slaughtering a town of civilians. Executing the Tarlys, who are enemies, who did not submit, and is a common practice in the established lore of the universe, while explicitly explaining to the soldiers that she's not here to burn down their cities and murder indiscriminately, is not the same as slaughtering a town of civilians.

There is not a clear and direct line from point A to point B here. That is crap writing.

Again, this isn't something new, this was pretty well established since the beginning of booth the books and the show.

Hell, the script of this season was finalized months before Fire & Blood came out, even. This is what GRRM had in mind since the beginning and that's why he left all the foreshadowing for it.

Whatever foreshadowing is in place does not excuse the hasty, 2 episode heel turn. You already agreed to this, so why are you still arguing?

 

[Kadayi]

Feeding one dude to her dragons, a dude who is keeper of a long history of slavery, and who might be a conspirator in terrorism?

Might?

You ignore her making sacrifices for the good of the human race, and putting aside her own ambitions for the greater good.

but she didn't set aside her ambitions. She came to Westeros to take the Iron Throne.

The preponderance of actions in favor of your point of view is not on your side. Maybe if we had another season that fleshed out her turn to the darkside, that would be better writing. But we got a coin flip "welp I'm a bad guy now lol" heel turn in 2 episodes, and that is not good writing.

Again, your willful denial of the facts is no counterpoint.

Umm..

Yet that wasn't the tune she was singing in Meereen before Tyrion persuaded to think otherwise.

I'm sourcing plenty of counterpoints to your few and weakly sourced points. That's a conversation.

 

[strange headache]

Crucifying the masters, who is an organization that promotes slavery, is not the same as slaughtering a town of civilians. Executing the Tarlys, who are enemies, who did not submit, and is a common practice in the established lore of the universe, while explicitly explaining to the soldiers that she's not here to burn down their cities and murder indiscriminately, is not the same as slaughtering a town of civilians.

If anything, Daenery's character arc is not shitty writing. Her freeing the slaves was a brilliant move to distract from her major character flaws. Daenerys always liked to solve problems and conflict by asserting her dominance through violence. The only reason why she even got so far was because of her advisers, especially Jorah Mormont. When things don't go her way she always tended to lash out in anger and tried to accuse her friends. Daenerys thinks the world belongs to her, but instead of blaming herself for the things that don't work out, she always puts the blame on others.

She has always been a very emotional, hot headed and overly ambitious person with a tendency to act in a brash and unreflected manner. Her going mad due to the loss of her Dragon and her closest female friend Missandei is one of the things this episode got right.

Did people really think that Daenerys would become a fair and good ruler? Her own vindictive and petty character made it pretty obvious that such a thing would never happen.

 

[Mahadev]

Daenerys has always been an idiot relying on her advisers to save the day, she actually had good intentions but she always needed help. I'm not the least bit surprised by what happened not because the character development was that good but because the last couple of seasons they've been not subtle at all about it AT ALL, which is actually a sign of bad writing. But I could justify that because the transition from slaughtering bad people to slaughtering good ones isn't as difficult as you might think and history has taught us that multiple times, it was written sloppily but made sense.

Tyrion on the other hand is now a shadow of himself, they have completely ruined the character especially this season. He makes one dumb decision after another, can't anticipate other character's actions anymore, sides with the wrong people, completely lets his feelings only dictate his actions ignoring all reason and logic. He used to be my favorite character, now he's just a generic smart person in a Hollywood movie that makes all the wrong decisions.

This season has been terrible, from making a mockery of their slogan "Winter is Coming" to murdering their characters without even killing them in the story. I know they've done the same to other characters too but I'm really fucking butthurt about Tyrion, the character is basically dead as far as I'm concerned for a while now.

 

[Kadayi]

Nice breakdown review: -

 

[stickkidsam]

Isn’t that the story of most tyrants?
Virtually every tyrant started with good intention.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. She has absolute power, what did you think was going to happen?
People need to understand that there is no such thing as a benevolent dictator. It’s an oxymoron. Having power over people is inherently evil. But do-gooders are too blind to see that due to their moral absolutism. Mankind has witnessed the same story ad nauseam yet some people will always believe that “this time, it will be different”.

Got a small wall built for ya here:

If having power over people is inherently evil then that would mean any system of government/structure is inherently evil, which is a statement I completely disagree with. Structures of power tend towards corruption because they attract those who may wish to abuse it. That does not mean there aren't those who can wield power rightfully. It's why we are always working to find the right balance of power and what systems we can create as safeguards against it should it fall to corruption.

The reason mankind repeats this story over and over again, is because we are inspired to strive for that better world. As tragic as it is to see those who do terrible things in the name of what they think is right, it doesn't negate the worth of those who strive to create a better world in the best ways possible.

A benevolent dictator can exist, it is simply rare in its occurrence, not that I want to encourage dictatorship as a means of government lol

If a King (or in this case a Queen) exercises their power in the interest of their people and the stability of the kingdom, are they still a tyrant? If they defer to their advisors and lower subjects for wisdom, are they still corrupt? Danny was on her way to being a good Queen, but has for little to no reason abandoned everything she fought to achieve. That's why it is illogical and terrible writing. It was not earned or built up. It just happened, and almost every tragedy this season could've been easily avoided had our characters not been holding the stupid ball as a team.

 

[Jon Neu]

Eh, that feels like lazy writing. Rhaegal too injured to "see" a fleet from high above? Drogon didn't see them either? Also, the power difference seems to be way out of line if Drogon is so much stronger than his siblings. Apart from being Daenery's personal mount, is that ever established in the show?

The dragons not seeing the fleet was totally crappy and lazy writing done just for shock value. They could have easily made Rhaegal die at Winterfell and Jorah and Missandei die by Cersei's hand, it would have made everything better.

But I think my point still stands on itself. Drogon is the bigger and it's obviously presented as the stronger dragon, he is the alpha of the pack.

And he is being guided by Dany, who brings a human element of smartness in battle that neither Rhaegal or Viserion had. Dany at this point is quite skilled and experienced in riding, Jon wasn't a good raider for obvious reasons.

So yeah, Drogon + Dany is a far more stronger combo that any other of the two dragons.

I find that hard to believe, after all his cunning and intelligence are Tyrion's main attribute. He knew that Daenerys was going mad, he even admitted to that, yet kept playing her stupid game.

I don't think he knew Dany was going mad, not this mad at least, for sure.

All his plan about the bells was him believing that Dany would show mercy for the Lannister's army, I doubt he even though about the possibility of Dany murdering everybody consciously, he always thought that the possible smallfolk casualties were going to be because of collateral damage reasons. But this was straight up annhiliation and he was as shocked as Jon or the Burlington Bar audience.

Not sure if I'm on board with all this "blood is thicker than water" Mumbo Jumbo. If people, even your own family, are crossing the line, you ow it to them too speak up and tell them the truth. If he truly loved his brother, he should have talked some sense into him.

But at that point, the only thing Tyrion can do for them is give them the opportunity to survive. He knows he can't change any of them, but at least he wants to know they are alive and somewhat happy. He owes that to his brother.

And if it wasn't for the too convenient aparition of Euron, Jaime and Cersei could have escaped.

And like I said before, I would love a line in the next episode telling how they couldn't found their bodies, so the endless theories about them being alive in some summer island could begin and last through the end of times (half of them started by me).

But that's just me being silly.

Please, they barely know each other. There's like absolutely no chemistry between them and they both distrust each other deeply as shown by this episode.

Oh, yeah, lol. I totally agree with you, their romance through season 7 was so stupid it was almost out of a shit tier anime.

But we have to accept that Jon is supposed to be in love with Dany. Or at least he was until this episode.

Which I find rather surprising considering that I never liked Daenerys. She always struck me as emotionally unstable, obsessively power hungry and petty. Her advisers were the only thing keeping her somewhat in line.

I felt the same, I always despised her character. After episode 4 I was wishing she would go all crazy and burn King's Landing down in a sweet revenge, but I wasn't expecting that to happen for real.

I love what she has become now. Like Olenna said: be a dragon.

And like Quaithe said in the books: don't forget who you are, the dragons haven't.

 

[Rentahamster]

Feel free to keep denying it.



1:25 The Unsullied will not rape and pillage unless ordered to.



3:04 Slay the salvers, spare the children and the innocent.



7:19 Gives soldiers a choice to surrender and live.

7:45 To the masters who betrayed her: "Though our queen has a forgiving nature, this...cannot be forgiven"

7:57 Kills the other two masters who tried to throw the third one under the bus.



2:01

DAENERYS: My father was an evil man. On behalf of House Targaryen I ask your forgiveness for the crimes he committed against your family. And I ask you not to judge a daughter by the sins of her father. Our two houses were allies for centuries. Those were the best centuries the kingdom's ever known. Centuries of peace and prosperity with the Targaryens sitting on the Iron Throne and a Stark serving as Warden of the North. I am the last Targaryen, Jon Snow. Honor the pledge your ancestor made to mine. Bend the knee and I will name you Warden of the North. Together we will save this country from those who would destroy it.

3:43
JON: But you haven't stormed King's Landing. Why not? The only reason I can see is you don't want to kill thousands of innocent people. It's the fastest way to win the war but you won't do it. Which means at the very least you're better than Cersei.




2:43

TYRION: Children are not their fathers, luckily for all of us. And sometimes there's more to foreign invaders than northern fools that meets the eye. Daenerys could have sailed for Westeros long ago but she didn't. Instead she stayed where she was and saved many people from horrible fates some of whom are on this island with us right now. While you're our guest here you might consider asking them what they think of the Mad King's daughter. She protects people from monsters, just as you do. That's why she came here.



1:03

DAENERYS: I know what Cersei has told you, that I've come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me. I'm not here to murder. And all I want to destroy is the wheel that is rolled over rich and poor to the benefit of no one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world. I offer you a choice. Bend the knee and join me. Together we will leave the world a better place than we found it, or refuse and die.



quite a sensible chuckle indeed

 

[Rentahamster]

Oh yeah, and Dany chaining up her children because they killed an innocent child totally foreshadows her love of killing innocent children 4 seasons later.

 

[strange headache]

Drogon is the bigger and it's obviously presented as the stronger dragon, he is the alpha of the pack. [...] All his plan about the bells was him believing that Dany would show mercy for the Lannister's army, I doubt he even though about the possibility of Dany murdering everybody consciously, he always thought that the possible smallfolk casualties were going to be because of collateral damage reasons. But this was straight up annhiliation and he was as shocked as Jon or the Burlington Bar audience.

If Drogon is that OP, here's the smart thing they should have done.

Have Drogon wipe out Euron's fleet and destroy the Red Keep, either killing Cersei in the process or letting her submit. This is what Jon, Tyrion and Varys should have advised. Considering that the enemy forces yielded quite quickly after witnessing Drogon's devastation, they could have taken King's Landing without the merciless slaughter.

They already took King's Landing without much resistance, so a quick show of their superior strength would have sufficed to make the enemy yield even if Cersei would have refused to do so. Jon was clearly taken aback by the mindless slaughter, which only begs the question as to why he did not object to Daenerys' obviously bloodthirsty plan. Even for his standards, that was quite blind.

If it's that easy for Drogo to single-handedly lay waste to King's Landing, they could have taken it without killing so many innocent lives. If for whatever reason that initial show of strength would not have sufficed, they still could have gone through with the other plan. But then again, we would not have been treated to such spectacle.

I think the last episode will be trying to salvage Jon by making him recognize the error of his ways. He will refrain from claiming the throne and probably piss off back to the north. All of this could have been easily prevented could they have been arsed to come up with a better plan to conquer King's Landing through something else than brute force. It would not only have kept Jon's reputation intact, but also kept in line with Tyrion's character and would certainly have been more respectful of their military losses against the Night King.

As it stands, I can understand why this episode didn't sit well with its increasingly sour fanbase.

 

[Jon Neu]

How is punishing traitors, enemies, and terrorists evil? Robert did it. Robb did it. Eddard did it. Jon did it. Sansa did it. Arya did it. Are they all foreshadowed to be secret assholes too?

You forgot the most obvious comparison: Stannis.

Stannis was actually pretty similar to Dany, he thought of himself as the choosen one, he thought he was more important than anybody's else life, he thought he could decide to kill whoever he wanted on the premise of they bending the knee or not.

He ended up burning his daughter for his delusions of greatness.

Again, foreshadowing and themes.

There is not a clear and direct line from point A to point B here. That is crap writing.

She was showing signs of tyranny, cruelty and delusions of messianical superiority through the entire show.

You may not like how it was handled, but the line was there pretty much all the time.

Whatever foreshadowing is in place does not excuse the hasty, 2 episode heel turn. You already agreed to this, so why are you still arguing?

I didn't agreed to this, I agreed to the possibility of someone not liking the execution.

But that's not what we are arguing about, we are arguing about the fact that you said that all of this wasn't established and that the Targaryen lore was just hamfisted all of sudden to make this happen. I don't know how many times you want me to explain it at this point.

 

[Rentahamster]

You forgot the most obvious comparison: Stannis.

No I didn't.

Killing traitors who don't bend the knee and submit to your authority is completely normal and something that Robert, Ned, Stannis, Rob, and Jon have done without anyone questioning their sanity.

"mercy on enemies"
The smallfolk of King's Landing are not her enemies. Bad comparison.

"how easily it was for her to use fear over love to get her way"

Oh yeah totally like this huh

I didn't agreed to this, I agreed to the possibility of someone not liking the execution.

And I don't, and you said you'd accept that.

But that's not what we are arguing about, we are arguing about the fact that you said that all of this wasn't established and that the Targaryen lore was just hamfisted all of sudden to make this happen. I don't know how many times you want me to explain it at this point.

Going from liberator of mankind to destroyer of cities in the span of 2 episodes because of a quote about a coin flip that actually doesn't represent Targ history is definitely not "established", and definitely is "hamfisted".

 

[HeadsUp7Up]

Jon is a fool. He had the hearts and minds of the people and he choose to be a side character who couldn't do anything. Blind loyalty. This is not the first time that Jons heroric good nature has cost countless lives because he won't even do a little bit of bad for the greater good.

This is the part that bothered me the most. He’s been around too long to not know how to play the game even just a little bit. They made him way too naive.

 

[Rentahamster]

Even in this scene where she hears of her allies falling, and has a desire to fly to the Red Keep to kill Cersei, she's still only targeting her enemies, and not civilians. Jon Snow's warning would apply if she kills civilians indiscriminately, but she's not even planning that. But that doesn't even matter in the end anyway, because we get contrivance after contrivance in order to force the characters into this very action in season 8 episode 5 not because that's what they'd do based on their character, but because that's what the writers want because they want to wrap this shit up and go on to Star Wars.

 

[Blood Borne]

Got a small wall built for ya here:

If having power over people is inherently evil then that would mean any system of government/structure is inherently evil, which is a statement I completely disagree with. Structures of power tend towards corruption because they attract those who may wish to abuse it. That does not mean there aren't those who can wield power rightfully. It's why we are always working to find the right balance of power and what systems we can create as safeguards against it should it fall to corruption.

The reason mankind repeats this story over and over again, is because we are inspired to strive for that better world. As tragic as it is to see those who do terrible things in the name of what they think is right, it doesn't negate the worth of those who strive to create a better world in the best ways possible.

A benevolent dictator can exist, it is simply rare in its occurrence, not that I want to encourage dictatorship as a means of government lol

If a King (or in this case a Queen) exercises their power in the interest of their people and the stability of the kingdom, are they still a tyrant? If they defer to their advisors and lower subjects for wisdom, are they still corrupt? Danny was on her way to being a good Queen, but has for little to no reason abandoned everything she fought to achieve. That's why it is illogical and terrible writing. It was not earned or built up. It just happened, and almost every tragedy this season could've been easily avoided had our characters not been holding the stupid ball as a team.

Yes. Government is inherently evil. Government/Kings force you to do things against your own will. They force their will on you, that is evil by definition. Whether their will yields positive or negative results is another argument/topic but that doesn’t negate the fact that they force you to violate your own conscience through the threat of force/violence. That’s a fact and it’s evil.

The existence of government/kings inherently assumes that some humans are superior to others and they know best. Humans gonna human but people keep denying this reality. Since the dawn of mankind, it’s been all about people trying to impose their will on others and others resisting that will, it’s a human tragedy. It’s everlasting.

Also, a benevolent dictator can exist? Lol. How’s that even possible, do you actually know the meaning of a dictator?

The writing was good. It’s consistent with reality. Humans gonna human.

 

[Jon Neu]

And I don't, and you said you'd accept that.

I'm totally ok with that.

Going from liberator of mankind to destroyer of cities in the span of 2 episodes because of a quote about a coin flip that actually doesn't represent Targ history is definitely not "established", and definitely is "hamfisted".

Stannis was also a liberator of mankind. Isn't it funny how he and Danny are so similar?

He ended up burning his daughter to fullfill his destiny, I don't know if I mentioned that and how that totally represents the God complex that descends into madness/tyranny of both Dany and Stannis.

And yeah, having literally history written about how the Targaryens have a high rate of madness is not established as the Targaryens having a high rate of madness.

Aerys and Viserys were hamfisted in the story, too. Everything foreshadowing Mad Dany has to be hamfisted, doesn't matter if it happened in the first episode or the last or both.

 

[daveonezero]

Also, a benevolent dictator can exist? Lol. How’s that even possible, do you actually know the meaning of a dictator?

I agree with the rest of your post but I think this argument can be accurate.

I think it's preferable to have a "benevolent" dictator than have a government where there is an illusion of something else.

Like it would be better if Dany dropped all the bullshit seasons ago and just said "fuck y'all I'm going to burn this mother fucker down". Arguable less people would have been hurt if she wasn't told to calm down. If she just burned Kings lan ding as soon as she got to Dragon stone she would have been able to defend the realms from the NK with the Norths help. but whatever.

 

[Rentahamster]

Stannis was also a liberator of mankind. Isn't it funny how he and Danny are so similar?

He ended up burning his daughter to fullfill his destiny, I don't know if I mentioned that and how that totally represents the God complex that descends into madness/tyranny of both Dany and Stannis.

Stannis' chain of events that led him to sacrifice Shireen despite those other scenes where he proclaims how valuable she is to him was also terribly handled but at least it has somewhat of a cause and effect chain of events that kinda sorta makes sense in terms of him wanting to do whatever it takes to achieve his goals.

There is no plausible chain of events that explains Dany's decision out of left field to abandon "breaker of chains" and embrace "burner of civilians". It's writing to serve predetermined plot points. It is not writing that emphasizes character motivations first.

And yeah, having literally history written about how the Targaryens have a high rate of madness is not established as the Targaryens having a high rate of madness.

Aerys and Viserys were hamfisted in the story, too. Everything foreshadowing Mad Dany has to be hamfisted, doesn't matter if it happened in the first episode or the last or both.

Our disagreement here is more on semantics and not substance, I think you can see that.

Remember this happier time?

The amount of shit some people are capable of pull to defend this mess is amazing.

 

[Rentahamster]

Also, a benevolent dictator can exist? Lol. How’s that even possible, do you actually know the meaning of a dictator?

You ever been to Singapore?

 

[vpance]

I felt the same, I always despised her character. After episode 4 I was wishing she would go all crazy and burn King's Landing down in a sweet revenge, but I wasn't expecting that to happen for real.

I love what she has become now. Like Olenna said: be a dragon.

And like Quaithe said in the books: don't forget who you are, the dragons haven't.

When she got her angry face on I thought she would just gun for the main castle and blow shit up there, but then it was like, uhh wait a sec, lol.

How she'll justify what she did will be interesting. Or if she doesn't GAF at all and goes full retarg.

 

[Silent Duck]

Cersei killed her BFF and her child in front of her all on the same day. That's fucked. Even in real life most regular people would either immediately go insane or retaliate without abandon.

Didn’t think of it that way.
What Dany did wasn’t justice, or vengeance. It was...

Punishment

 

[Rentahamster]

I like this point in this review about the "need" for the battle of Winterfell to weaken Dany's armies and even the odds. Even though it doesn't even matter cuz all of a sudden Dragons are OP again. Cuz reasons.

 

[Halo is Back]

I know the show was trying to push me into buy Dany = Mad Queen

But honestly the execution (no pun intended) was bad. I am actually more sympathetic to her than before.

You’re sympathetic to her burning children????

 

[Musky_Cheese]

You’re sympathetic to her burning children????

No. I hand wave that. I want to be as inconsistent as the writing this season.

 

[Fbh]

A bit of a side note.... but I sort of wish armies were more relevant this season. On paper a big source of power and influence for all big players this season are their armies and yet in practice they are always shown to be irrelevant:

Let's get as many people as possible to fight the White Walkers!!!.... oh look they are irrelevant:
Jon spent so much time gathering people to fight the White Walkers. Much of last season was all about uniting as many armies as possible since they would need every last man to even have a slight chance of winning.
Then the big battle comes and everyone except for Arya and maybe the dragons are irrelevant. The episode is basically an hour and a half of the human army getting their ass kicked. They accomplish so little that had there been 10.000 soldiers or 2 would have probably resulted in the same outcome.

But those White Walkers huh? with their massive numbers and they also have like, a giant and a dragon and they can even turn the dead soldiers int....oh look they are irrelevant:
Because the Night King who apparently isn't that skilled, is somehow easy to sneak up on even in an area surrounded by nothing but his allies and can be insta killed with a single stab wound, also has this convenient thing were killing him instantly kills his army too

Ok but NOW things get really complicated because they lost like half of their people and Cersei has the Lanister Army and the Golden Company and Euron's fleet with those OP balis..... oh look they are irrelevant:
Turns out the balista got nerfed and armies are irrelevant because one dragon is enough to take down the entire ship fleet, take out all the city defences and take down the entire golden company.

 

[Tesseract]

Cersei killed her BFF and her child in front of her all on the same day. That's fucked. Even in real life most regular people would either immediately go insane or retaliate without abandon.

If there's any quick turns of plot or characters to criticize, I would say her's is far from being one of the main ones.

she's not a regular person, she's the mother of dragons, breaker of chains, so and so forth i cannot go through them all please start the damn joust before i piss myself

and uh, the whole dragons are my children thing is something a crazy person might believe

 

[Jon Neu]

Stannis' chain of events that led him to sacrifice Shireen despite those other scenes where he proclaims how valuable she is to him was also terribly handled but at least it has somewhat of a cause and effect chain of events that kinda sorta makes sense in terms of him wanting to do whatever it takes to achieve his goals.

And Dany's goal is to rule Westeros and bring Targaryen dinasty back to the place they belong. In her mind, she could easily see how she had to destroy everything not only for revenge, but for the sake of creating something new, something that can call her own.

There is no plausible chain of events that explains Dany's decision out of left field to abandon "breaker of chains" and embrace "burner of civilians". It's writing to serve predetermined plot points. It is not writing that emphasizes character motivations first.

Yes there is, but also at this point doesn't matter anymore.

The show already told you that Targaryens are prone to become crazy. Her father was crazy, her brother was crazy, but she becoming crazy is hamfisted!

In the books various characters question the sanity of Dany. And even Dany himself questions her own sanity.

Tweets

I'm sorry for IOIAF, but he just needs to accept that this is what's going to happen in the books too. With better execution, obviously, but Danny is going to become Mad Danny in a few chapters or even in one chapter. You can't even foreshadow it too obviously, because then it loses the shocking effect.

And trying to argue the difference between being cruel or mad is futile. Aerys or Viserys never were at war while flying on a dragon.

Remember this happier time?

Precisely that's the point, this is pretty much GRRM stuff, not something that D&D have invented.

 

[Rentahamster]

With better execution, obviously

Precisely that's the point, this is pretty much GRRM stuff, not something that D&D have invented.

Seasons 5-8 is stuff that D&D had to invent because they're only going off the rough outline that GRRM provided. If these same plot points come to pass in the books too, then it'll get there via a path that makes more sense that what we got this season.

"With better execution, obviously".

Obviously. That's the whole point I'm arguing. This was terribly written in the show, and will probably be better written in the books. You are agreeing with what I'm saying yet you keep thinking you aren't.

 

[Rentahamster]

And Dany's goal is to rule Westeros and bring Targaryen dinasty back to the place they belong. In her mind, she could easily see how she had to destroy everything not only for revenge, but for the sake of creating something new, something that can call her own.

Despite constantly saying and doing the opposite. That's not being consistent to her character if you have to make up some weird random plot twist to justify this.

The show already told you that Targaryens are prone to become crazy. Her father was crazy, her brother was crazy, but she becoming crazy is hamfisted!

See above. Let's spend seven seasons showing how not crazy she is and how she is trying to emulate the good parts of Rheagar rather than the bad parts of Aerys and Viserys, but then throw it all away in 2 episodes.

In the books various characters question the sanity of Dany. And even Dany himself questions her own sanity.

And yet she does not crazy things because there is a reason for that and because a descent into madness would need to be slow and deliberate, which is something that the TV show doesn't have time for.