Game of Thrones Season 8 |OT| A Song of Icy and Fiery Fandom

Saruhashi

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That's not how criticism works. This board would be very small if it were.

Her becoming the mad queen is only foreshadowed if you choose to go ahead with that ending, and it's such a shit, boring one. Such an easy way out of having to write anything remotely clever, just like the night king. She's been shown throughout the whole show to be ruthless but merciful, the audience has been conditioned to love her, they present her as this messiah figure with a bit of an angry side, and then suddenly in the final few episodes she "snaps" and decides to burn thousands of innocent people including children alive. There's such little justification for such an enormous character change. I never liked her in the first place but I can totally see why anyone that did is pissed. It's just super sloppy writing.
It's like talking to a brick wall at this point to be honest.

I feel like there is a conflation between people who are irrationally angry that their "hero" character turned into a villain at the end and people who feel that the build up and payoff of her descent into madness was not done well.

So "OMG you aren't even a writer shut up" and "hahaha your just butthurt because your favorite became the baddie" tend to be the stock responses even though they don't really address the real issues that people have.

Is the fact that she has a dark side telegraphed and foreshadowed? Sure.
The main story beats of her character though are of a person who is essentially good.

Fundamentally your point is spot on. She undergoes an enormous character change in a short space of time with very little justification.
This is due to very sloppy writing. In a long form story telling format it is just so incredibly sloppy and weak.

But there was one episode where she killed some of her enemies so "hahaha you are just salty".

For me at least this is just another "Anakin Skywalker" situation and they made pretty much the same mistakes as George Lucas back in the early 00s.

Sure, we knew the guy would become Darth Vader. Just as we know that Mad Queen Dany was always a possibility.
Yup, they showed him killing Sand People and being quick to anger and being arrogant and just being a total dick. Just as we saw that Daenerys had her dark side.
Hell yeah, we saw him executing Count Dooku and being suspicious of his own side. Same in GoT more or less.

Despite all of that, it was still a completely ridiculous leap to have Anakin go from "yeah, maybe the Jedi are actually not the good guys and maybe the Sith can help me save Padme" to "I'm just going to kill this room full of children with my lightsaber real quick". Even with killing Mace Windu as a stepping stone in between there is too great of a leap. It's bad writing.

Didn't The Hobbit movies have this same kind of issue where Thorin sort of lurches between good and evil in an equally unrewarding manner.

So it's the same here. I don't know how anyone can look at the recent episode and be satisfied with this character change.
Surely, it's a thing to build up over many episodes? Instead of "she hears the bells and goes nuts"?

I would think that even if you wanted to have the bells "trigger" her then you could at least foreshadow the real possibility something like that?
Show that she is liable to just go off script and cause a lot of damage to her own cause, and at some cost to her close allies, just on a whim because she loses control of herself sometimes. We never really see something like that.

I wouldn't say that it "comes out of nowhere" that she goes mad but it wasn't exactly well set up either.

Plus, I assume she is going to go full villain next episode which is going to make things seem a bit worse in hindsight?

It's entirely possible they could have gone for something along the lines of "The Killing Joke", where one bad day can drive someone insane, but you still need to build it up piece by piece.

Or it could have been a bit more of a tragedy like Walter White in Breaking Bad where bad actions lead to even worse actions until eventually everything the character loves is lost to him because that desire to just win and all costs is out of control.

They didn't do any of that here.

Feels like the writers wanted it to be a "shock" for the audience but also wanted to keep the "foreshadowing" at a minimum to make the "twist" less predictable. It seems that, unfortunately, when you do this you have to sacrifice your characters consistency and believably to get over the line.

Just as it would have been with Anakin/Vader, it would have been far more powerful and tragic to witness her fight and then lose against her "dark side" rather than just dramatically shift from "i'm quick to anger and sometimes a bit violent" to "I am going to just indulge in a bit of genocide for a moment" to shock the audience.
 
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Ragnaroz

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Oh, yeah, and her. If you think they've "been building to" a mad queen ending because everyone's talked about the possibility of it on the internet, or because she's been a bit moody for a few episodes, sorry, you're wrong. It's the absolute laziest way to wrap up her arc quickly, such a painfully obvious and boring decision because, just like the Night King, just like Cersei and Jaime, just like so many others, the writers can't think of anything remotely clever without GRRM's help. She snaps from "ruthless but merciful" to "slaughtering babies" in a heartbeat and D&D have already admitted it was spontaneous. Fuck right off.
No, Dany's arc is ending like this because it is how Martin intended it to end. It only looks stupid and happened in a heartbeat because D&D are hacks.
 
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Teletraan1

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Honestly I don't get the complaints about the scorpions. They seemed to have limited aim. They could only aim up on a 45°. When they took out a dragon last week, it was a surprise attack on a dragon with no rider. When dany rushed them in that episode she was able to evade and test their range. This was all shown to the viewers.

In this episode she descend on them from above right inline with the sun. She evaded bolts just like the previous episode and used the limited firing capability to her advantage. When I saw the design of the scorpions on the ships and the placement on the walls it seemed like an easily defeatable armament by playing angles.
 

AV

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Honestly I don't get the complaints about the scorpions. They seemed to have limited aim. They could only aim up on a 45°. When they took out a dragon last week, it was a surprise attack on a dragon with no rider. When dany rushed them in that episode she was able to evade and test their range. This was all shown to the viewers.
Euron almost hit her on his first shot. No-one else even tried.
 
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AV

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I must have imagined the whole sequence of her evading and burning them to ash as they reloaded. If they had to reload they tried.
Sorry, should have clarified, no one on the ships. She is shot at twice more when she flies towards the city. The only boat that fires at her is Euron's.

Maybe they moved every scorpion except his? In which case I'm not 100% sure what the fleet is doing there? In only the last episode they have a ton of scorpions on boats and managed to take down a dragon. Now the boats just look like cannon fodder.
 
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Kadayi

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Honestly I don't get the complaints about the scorpions. They seemed to have limited aim. They could only aim up on a 45°. When they took out a dragon last week, it was a surprise attack on a dragon with no rider. When dany rushed them in that episode she was able to evade and test their range. This was all shown to the viewers.

In this episode she descend on them from above right inline with the sun. She evaded bolts just like the previous episode and used the limited firing capability to her advantage. When I saw the design of the scorpions on the ships and the placement on the walls it seemed like an easily defeatable armament by playing angles.
^This.

Prior to Rhaegal getting killed, there was no indication that Qyburn had redesigned the Scorpions from the ones used during the loot train sequence last year, or even put any on ships. Rhaegal got taken down was more a sucker punch kind of moment than anything else. It's frankly hilarious reading all the #Team Dany in here complaining about 'Bad writing' given we've already witnessed how fast and devastating the dragons can be when directed with deadly intention in a bunch of episodes. She came out of the sun at high speed and was on them before they could adequately react blitzkrieg fashion. This was never a battle that Cersei would win, it was always going to be a massacre. Bronn called it the episode before. The Golden company was a maguffin to make people feel Cersei remotely had a chance. Them getting absolutely pulverised in minutes was to demonstrate how truly uneven the fight was.
 
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Monsterkillah

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Why they changed the original actor for Ser Gregor?

The previous one look badass

RIP Sandor Clegane killed by mutated Varys
 
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Miku Miku

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People (including mainstream media outlets) acting indignant because a messianic "liberator" (& de-facto tyrant) slaughtered people need to revise their history. The French Revolition started on the premise of ever-so-benevolent justice & liberation from tyranny. It ended with the terror, mass decapitations & Robespierre losing his own head.
We don't even need to go to real world history. Hell, just look at the last time King's Landing fell. The Lannister army raped and pillaged, and then the Mountain split open the queen and smashed her babies. Even liberators turn evil sometimes during a siege. This was pretty common in history actually. Once you get that many people together with weapons and death, you can't control it.
 
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NickFire

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Despite all of that, it was still a completely ridiculous leap to have Anakin go from "yeah, maybe the Jedi are actually not the good guys and maybe the Sith can help me save Padme" to "I'm just going to kill this room full of children with my lightsaber real quick". Even with killing Mace Windu as a stepping stone in between there is too great of a leap. It's bad writing.
I literally LOL'd at that. The novel was better than the film IMO at setting up the turn, but I would definitely have preferred a much more in depth flirtation with the dark side than we ended up getting. It was rather rushed in both cases.
 
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Luffytubby

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Some of you are tripping if you honestly think that Daenerys was ever "actually a good person". No she fucking wasn't if you look at all the entitled psycho shit she has talked about throughout the entire show. She was always a cunt, and the show depicts almost everyone who wants to have throne as being cunts, which is fairly normal and beliveable behavior. Shitheads often want to lead other people in their powertrips, and many characters made a point out of saying that a better leader would be someone who didn't want to lead at all (Jon).

If Jon had lied and swore to Cersei that she would not remain loyal to Daenerys after the Battle of Winterfell, the Lannister armies would have fought at Winterfell, and they wouldnt have been able to resist. With Kings Landing exposed it, it would have been over then and there. But Jon is such a morally good person, that his word is more important than actual war. Thats some houlier-than-thou shit right there. He has a stick up his own morally just ass, just like Daenerys has a stick up her entitled cunt. The throne is not rightfully hers, but does she give a fuck? NO. She says she is the breaker of chains but she executes harmless innocent? YES. She was always a tyrant who two faces, and Tyrion and Verys and others always fell for it, and ignored the other side. Again- Believeable. Many cruel dictators and leaders even in our time, have had admirable qualities and features that their supporters would focus on while ignoring the atrocities.

IMO Daenerys has been consistently on this trajectory for many seasons, and I always wondered why people fangurled over her so much, when you have much better characters like Brienne. She is the real fucking deal. If you wanna talk about a great person who is also a great fighter, then give a toast to her. She is not a bad bitch, but a good bitch. A good fighter and one that actually stands up for people. And yet people still stanned for the dragon brad.

"Harsh, but fair" my ass. Daenerys was always power hungry and cruel. She has burned so many people alive who were not a threat to her, who had given up, who didnt want to bend the knee. And she is not someone who was remorseful. Particularly when she told Sam before the battle of winterfell that his family had burned. "I will take what is mine with fire and blood". That is how she has always been.

Look at her fucking behavior. She frees people because it suits her. She toys and uses them as a shield. She uses Jon through manipulation of love, when her title as the rightful heir is brought into question. Just because she talks about herself as being good, and just because she has done some good things, it doesn't mean that she is good.

Jon is good- Too good for his own good. Danny is not. And throughout the show she had shown this lack of sympathy and anger outburst where she has jeopardized her armies and servants because she got hotheaded. That Rhaegal is dead creates a character shift makes sense. That is doubled when Missiandre is executed. When the bell starts, there is a closeup of her face looking undecided and scared, and she makes the choice that this is not enough. Revenge has to be swift. I don't think there is a out of character bounds her. I always saw Danny like this, and I never understood all this yass queen bullshit. There is no cure for being a cunt, and danny was one of the most hypocritical and delusional ones always. I didnt give a fuck about her good actions when she did what she did as a ploy in her own empowerment.

There is no difference here between her and a conqueror like Ghengis Khan, Alexander or Julius Caesar. They changed the world, ushered in new forms of diplomacy, trade, wealth and furthering of civlization- But that always came on the back of genocide and their own empowerment. Alexander didn't spread Mediterranean thought, philosophy, and culture to the outside world because he wanted a better life for everyone. That is a symptom. He is still a mass murdrer who butchered millions of people with his overpowered armies.

I like Daenerys character now. Because it alludes to what was always pricking on about her. She always had this Chris Brown passive-aggressive bitch face attitude about it and a stick up her arse. She is the proto-example of the faulty of monarchs. Inherited power more often than not, makes people cruel. That is not sloppy writing, but just pointing out that its normal for would-be revolutionaries to turn into the very evil they swore to defeat. We see that shit all the fucking time even in our time. The bosses son is almost always a cunt. Entitled little shit brat.

She is such a delusional hypocrite because she knows that Jon is the rightful heir and the better person to lead the seven kingdoms in an age of prosperity. He is a man (which matters), he is a local that the people love and respect (which she isnt). If she gave any fucks about the dynasty of the Targaryans she would have shut the fuck up, stepped aside and let jon get what is rightfully his.
 
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Kadayi

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Why they changed the original actor for Ser Gregor?

The previous one look badass

RIP Sandor Clegane killed by mutated Varys
WTF are you on about? The changed the Mountain actor a couple of times in the first season or two, but eventually, they settled on Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (whose like the worlds strongest man) and he's portrayed the mountain since before the fight with the viper. Him being bald and beardless is likely a result of him being a reanimated corpse. I suspect Qybuen shaved him when he made him.
 
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ruvikx

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We don't even need to go to real world history. Hell, just look at the last time King's Landing fell. The Lannister army raped and pillaged, and then the Mountain split open the queen and smashed her babies. Even liberators turn evil sometimes during a siege. This was pretty common in history actually. Once you get that many people together with weapons and death, you can't control it.
The kicker in Dany's case though was the fact she had won. Cersei lost & the bells gave her complete victory. She was queen of Westeros & that was that. Then she let her brother takeover & she became a monster. There's no redemption arc here, just gore & horror. Hunting down civilians in the streets below like a housewife hunting dust with a vacuum cleaner (methodically cleansing street after street) was one of the insane & brutal war porn sequences I've seen, especially coming form a character people have supported for 8 years.

IMO (just my opinion) it was one of the absolute best moments in TV history, i.e. when legions of fans who've ignored all the warning signs had their pants pulled down & were buggered for their support of a psychopath.
 

Miku Miku

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I just hope I can make to Sunday without running into a leaked spoiler. I am usually good at avoiding them. Now that I state it publicly, I probably just jinxed myself.
I'll be unable to watch it for 2 weeks! Unless I watch it on my phone. Which I may have to do.
 
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vpance

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and then suddenly in the final few episodes she "snaps" and decides to burn thousands of innocent people including children alive. There's such little justification for such an enormous character change. I never liked her in the first place but I can totally see why anyone that did is pissed. It's just super sloppy writing.
That kill streak high, breh. Adrenaline levels must've been through the roof.
 
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autoduelist

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Tyrion walked into an inn which Lady Catelyn was sitting in (she arrested him), then at his trial in the Vale, Bronn (a highly skilled sell sword) was conveniently just waiting to fight for him. Likewise Mord is allowed to be bribed by the Vale's most important prisoner & nobody notices or gives a crap.
Cant you recognize the difference in severity?

That inn was called Crossroads Inn. Why? Because it was where the roads crossed for people traveling to all major parts of the realm.

The Kingsroad runs north to Winterfell and south to King's Landing. The River Road runs west into the Riverlands. At the crossroads, however, the name of the highway running west-east changes, becoming known as the Eastern Road which runs to the Vale of Arryn.

This is during medieval times... people aren't just driving past, but extremely likely to stop for some food, grog, and a night's sleep. And as for the timing, both Tyrion and Catelyn were traveling for interrelated political reasons, so having them travelling at the same time made sense.

So, sure, there is some level of contrivance. They crossed paths. That happens.

But to try to use that to defend Euron washing ashore at the exact time and place Jaime walks by? C'mon. GRRM literally ensured that chance meeting happened at the most likely time and place. It was crafted to be the most believable it could be. And that's the point.

Like I said in my post, it seems like the defenders of this are incapable of identifying severity. Your examples only prove this further.
 
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NickFire

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The kicker in Dany's case though was the fact she had won.
Here's the thing though. She did not really "win" a darn thing from her perspective. What she was trying to "win" was firm and unchallenged authority since day 1. Although she had "won" a major battle yet again, she had already lost the actual war she was fighting. She had already lost 2 of 3 super weapons, the secret was already out, the betrayals had already started, and winning the battle in that manner was going to leave her even more exposed to betrayals from the people who advocated for not killing everyone. She may have "won" from a viewer's perspective (mine included at first), but if you think about her true goal she had in fact already lost.
 

JareBear

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Here's the thing though. She did not really "win" a darn thing from her perspective. What she was trying to "win" was firm and unchallenged authority since day 1. Although she had "won" a major battle yet again, she had already lost the actual war she was fighting. She had already lost 2 of 3 super weapons, the secret was already out, the betrayals had already started, and winning the battle in that manner was going to leave her even more exposed to betrayals from the people who advocated for not killing everyone. She may have "won" from a viewer's perspective (mine included at first), but if you think about her true goal she had in fact already lost.
So was her goal from the beginning to be the Queen of Ashes?

I just still don't fully buy that the wholesale massacre was necessary. That's just my personal perspective, nothing more.
 
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NutJobJim

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So was her goal from the beginning to be the Queen of Ashes?

I just still don't fully buy that the wholesale massacre was necessary. That's just my personal perspective, nothing more.
I don't think it was always the plan but before she headed to Kings Landing she told Jon she would have to rule by fear if he wasn't going to give her the dick (and I guess marry her?).

No better way to instil some fear than by burning a few thousand woman and children alive I guess?
 

bigedole

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Some of you are tripping if you honestly think that Daenerys was ever "actually a good person". No she fucking wasn't if you look at all the entitled psycho shit she has talked about throughout the entire show. She was always a cunt, and the show depicts almost everyone who wants to have throne as being cunts, which is fairly normal and beliveable behavior. Shitheads often want to lead other people in their powertrips, and many characters made a point out of saying that a better leader would be someone who didn't want to lead at all (Jon).

If Jon had lied and swore to Cersei that she would not remain loyal to Daenerys after the Battle of Winterfell, the Lannister armies would have fought at Winterfell, and they wouldnt have been able to resist. With Kings Landing exposed it, it would have been over then and there. But Jon is such a morally good person, that his word is more important than actual war. Thats some houlier-than-thou shit right there. He has a stick up his own morally just ass, just like Daenerys has a stick up her entitled cunt. The throne is not rightfully hers, but does she give a fuck? NO. She says she is the breaker of chains but she executes harmless innocent? YES. She was always a tyrant who two faces, and Tyrion and Verys and others always fell for it, and ignored the other side. Again- Believeable. Many cruel dictators and leaders even in our time, have had admirable qualities and features that their supporters would focus on while ignoring the atrocities.

IMO Daenerys has been consistently on this trajectory for many seasons, and I always wondered why people fangurled over her so much, when you have much better characters like Brienne. She is the real fucking deal. If you wanna talk about a great person who is also a great fighter, then give a toast to her. She is not a bad bitch, but a good bitch. A good fighter and one that actually stands up for people. And yet people still stanned for the dragon brad.

"Harsh, but fair" my ass. Daenerys was always power hungry and cruel. She has burned so many people alive who were not a threat to her, who had given up, who didnt want to bend the knee. And she is not someone who was remorseful. Particularly when she told Sam before the battle of winterfell that his family had burned. "I will take what is mine with fire and blood". That is how she has always been.

Look at her fucking behavior. She frees people because it suits her. She toys and uses them as a shield. She uses Jon through manipulation of love, when her title as the rightful heir is brought into question. Just because she talks about herself as being good, and just because she has done some good things, it doesn't mean that she is good.

Jon is good- Too good for his own good. Danny is not. And throughout the show she had shown this lack of sympathy and anger outburst where she has jeopardized her armies and servants because she got hotheaded. That Rhaegal is dead creates a character shift makes sense. That is doubled when Missiandre is executed. When the bell starts, there is a closeup of her face looking undecided and scared, and she makes the choice that this is not enough. Revenge has to be swift. I don't think there is a out of character bounds her. I always saw Danny like this, and I never understood all this yass queen bullshit. There is no cure for being a cunt, and danny was one of the most hypocritical and delusional ones always. I didnt give a fuck about her good actions when she did what she did as a ploy in her own empowerment.

There is no difference here between her and a conqueror like Ghengis Khan, Alexander or Julius Caesar. They changed the world, ushered in new forms of diplomacy, trade, wealth and furthering of civlization- But that always came on the back of genocide and their own empowerment. Alexander didn't spread Mediterranean thought, philosophy, and culture to the outside world because he wanted a better life for everyone. That is a symptom. He is still a mass murdrer who butchered millions of people with his overpowered armies.

I like Daenerys character now. Because it alludes to what was always pricking on about her. She always had this Chris Brown passive-aggressive bitch face attitude about it and a stick up her arse. She is the proto-example of the faulty of monarchs. Inherited power more often than not, makes people cruel. That is not sloppy writing, but just pointing out that its normal for would-be revolutionaries to turn into the very evil they swore to defeat. We see that shit all the fucking time even in our time. The bosses son is almost always a cunt. Entitled little shit brat.

She is such a delusional hypocrite because she knows that Jon is the rightful heir and the better person to lead the seven kingdoms in an age of prosperity. He is a man (which matters), he is a local that the people love and respect (which she isnt). If she gave any fucks about the dynasty of the Targaryans she would have shut the fuck up, stepped aside and let jon get what is rightfully his.
This post is so eye rolly to me. Those that I have talked to are not upset/disappointed because Dany went mad. I think it's a legitimately interesting path for her character and would make for entertaining media if it were done right. They're upset/disappointed because the TV show literally pulled the equivalent of a WWE heel turn. Say what you will about the signs being there, but this was not earned. We did not get a "descent into madness" that lasted more than an episode from the back half of 4 to the moment it happens in 5. This was D&D trying to figure out the best way to subvert expectations and shock their audience without any of the clever/good writing of GRRM to guide them along that path. Dany spent 7 seasons doing the right thing, protecting/defending/liberating the weak and helpless. Yes she also spoke the language of conquerors. but burning the Tarly's alive is not somehow remotely comparable to frying random women and children civilians and pretending it is just makes this an exhausting conversation to have.

Game of Thrones is a popcorn flick where the point is no longer to be invested intelligently in what's going on, but just enjoy the spectacle of the show. Fine, that's just how it is now, but it's completely contrary to the legacy of the first five seasons when they had book material to draw from. Whoever they have writing for the show now just does not have the chops to do GRRM's story justice.
 

NickFire

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So was her goal from the beginning to be the Queen of Ashes?

I just still don't fully buy that the wholesale massacre was necessary. That's just my personal perspective, nothing more.
No, her goal was never to be Queen of Ashes. She absolutely wanted to be welcomed home as a savior / queen that everyone loved. She abandoned that path only when she realized that she was not going to be queen much longer.

Also, I fully agree the massacre was unnecessary. We both know John's heart / word is sincere, and that he would not have challenged her authority. But in her lustful mind the same drive for power that she had would corrupt John and already had. So from her perspective it was necessary to install that level of fear in everyone, but the reality is it was completely unnecessary to an objective viewer who knows the man that John is.
 

BlueAlpaca

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IMO (just my opinion) it was one of the absolute best moments in TV history, i.e. when legions of fans who've ignored all the warning signs had their pants pulled down & were buggered for their support of a psychopath.
:messenger_grinning_smiling:

But it's not just Danny's 'fans' that are upset. I've already said I never saw the difference between her and Cersei, Danny was just another entitled tyrant. Her transformation into a mad queen could be a good arch but it needed much better execution, it needed better writers and more episodes. Going form burning your enemies to out and out genocide and destroying everything was just too much. Yes there's logic in that transformation, but it needed developing. And Danny is not the only one with incoherent characterization. It makes sense that a tyrant believes she is destined to rule and build a new world and depict her enemies as the real evil. but it doesn't make any sense for Tyrion or Verys. Tyrion said he believed in her and they never elaborated why. She was just going to be another dictator on the iron throne. Verys supposedly served the realm, and he does this by bringing war to it to liberate it from Robert Baratheon and then the Lannisters? The show never told us why those two were so bad that the man of the people - Verys - thought war was necessary.
 
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DoctorEkkoUK

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The annoying thing is, the major issues with the plot could have been fixed so easily, in the surprise boat attack if they'd made it more of a hard fought battle, if the iron fleet had lost a load of ships and missed the dragons with most shots then finally get one lucky shot that kills the dragon. This would have made Danys attack on KL a bit more believable as the iron fleet would be reduced numbers and it wouldn't be such a huge nerf to the ballistas from the last battle. then at the point of surrender as Danny was considering letting them surrender if cersi had ordered a shot fired at the dragon , then that pushes her over the edge into a maniacal revenge rage as it clips her dragon. Also I really thought Jamie was going to kill Cersi as he knew he was the only one who could get close to her and that if he killed her it could save the people of KL.
 

Hado

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I think after this season we can say without doubt that D&D are great, maybe even exceptional at writing/directing off of source material, but once they have to fill In larger gaps themselves they kind of fall flat and look mediocre.

I'm just glad that got has such good directors and actors.
 
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NickFire

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The annoying thing is, the major issues with the plot could have been fixed so easily, in the surprise boat attack if they'd made it more of a hard fought battle, if the iron fleet had lost a load of ships and missed the dragons with most shots then finally get one lucky shot that kills the dragon. This would have made Danys attack on KL a bit more believable as the iron fleet would be reduced numbers and it wouldn't be such a huge nerf to the ballistas from the last battle. then at the point of surrender as Danny was considering letting them surrender if cersi had ordered a shot fired at the dragon , then that pushes her over the edge into a maniacal revenge rage as it clips her dragon. Also I really thought Jamie was going to kill Cersi as he knew he was the only one who could get close to her and that if he killed her it could save the people of KL.
I took issue with the iron fleet maintaining the element of surprise over a couple dragons flying high in the sky, and when she let the dragon sit so close in the second to last episode. But I took no issue with her wiping the launchers out so easily. She and the dragon knew they were this time, and the launchers are massive medieval cross bows. She just needed to use speed, angles, and surprise to avoid them.
 
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BlueAlpaca

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I think after this season we can say without doubt that D&D are great, maybe even exceptional at writing/directing off of source material, but once they have to fill In larger gaps themselves they kind of fall flat and look mediocre.

I'm just glad that got has such good directors and actors.
I think the latter seasons prove whatever was good about the earlier ones did not come from D&D.
 

Miku Miku

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I really have no problem with Dany being "overpowered" in episode 5. The Iron Fleet killed a dragon before entirely due to sneak attack. You literally don't even see the fleet, the first thing you see is the arrow hitting the dragon.

In episode 5, Dany flies in from the sun which is actually neat. And flies around them more quickly then they can turn. She also flies extremely close to the water and does several rapid divebombing maneuvers. And this is her at her most vicious and aggressive. Dragons were able to conquer the entire kingdom multiple times. It's not that crazy that she can take out King's landing with a hobbled army.

Hell, if you look at the scorpions, I don't even think they can tilt that high into the air. And I don't think they can tilt low either. Some of the complaints about the attempt to talk in the last episode, how they were in range of the weapons, I don't think they even tilt downwards.

I'll rewatch the battle just to make sure, but it looked fine to me. Hell, she dive bombed barely above the surface of the water and hit them from the backside. They didn't have scorpions all along the back wall. She blew up the Golden Company from inside the castle remember.
 
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Halo is Dead

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I see a lot of thick people not realizing what Danny was going to become. Wether you guys like it or not this is what GRRM has in mind for his story. I reckon he will write it a lot better than D&D though
 
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Luffytubby

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This post is so eye rolly to me. Those that I have talked to are not upset/disappointed because Dany went mad. I think it's a legitimately interesting path for her character and would make for entertaining media if it were done right. They're upset/disappointed because the TV show literally pulled the equivalent of a WWE heel turn. Say what you will about the signs being there, but this was not earned. We did not get a "descent into madness" that lasted more than an episode from the back half of 4 to the moment it happens in 5. This was D&D trying to figure out the best way to subvert expectations and shock their audience without any of the clever/good writing of GRRM to guide them along that path. Dany spent 7 seasons doing the right thing, protecting/defending/liberating the weak and helpless. Yes she also spoke the language of conquerors. but burning the Tarly's alive is not somehow remotely comparable to frying random women and children civilians and pretending it is just makes this an exhausting conversation to have.

Game of Thrones is a popcorn flick where the point is no longer to be invested intelligently in what's going on, but just enjoy the spectacle of the show. Fine, that's just how it is now, but it's completely contrary to the legacy of the first five seasons when they had book material to draw from. Whoever they have writing for the show now just does not have the chops to do GRRM's story justice.
Worth reposting:

 

strange headache

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There is no difference here between her and a conqueror like Ghengis Khan, Alexander or Julius Caesar. They changed the world, ushered in new forms of diplomacy, trade, wealth and furthering of civlization- But that always came on the back of genocide and their own empowerment. Alexander didn't spread Mediterranean thought, philosophy, and culture to the outside world because he wanted a better life for everyone. That is a symptom. He is still a mass murdrer who butchered millions of people with his overpowered armies.
That's the one thing that D&D understood about GRRM. The common theme in all of his fantasy books is a harsh critique of monarchical hierarchies and societal structures, where the power plays of the noble elite always come at the cost of the general population. While the powerful few are making their schemes for the throne, the common folk, the peasants and the have-nots find themselves crushed in a never-ending conflict. Daenerys is no different than all the others who stake their claims for the absolutist power over others.

Sure, Daenerys likes to think of herself as better, more just and rightful, pretending that she cares about the common folk, but that's exactly what makes her more dangerous than the others who don't indulge in such self-delusions. "Bend the knee or die" is exactly the kind of reductive black and white thinking that leads to the abuse of power. Be it Tywin, Aerys, Ned, Stannis, Robert or Daenerys, the Game of Thrones is a game with no winners, a game where you can only lose and that seems to be at the core of GRRM's books.

All the people who thought that Daenerys was different, who are complaining that she never showed any signs of being overly ambitious, prone to violence and power hungry clearly have not understood the central message of GRRM's story. Daenerys only cares about the common folk so long as she gets what she wants, so long as she can claim the throne. Getting rid of tyrants by resorting to tyrannical means is clearly the wrong way to go about things as the French revolution and many other historical examples have shown.

The past 7 seasons have clearly shown that Daenerys only plays nice if she gets what she wants and that her ambitions are more important than the well-being of others. Those complaining that her descent into madness was way too quick should be aware that oftentimes the abyss is just one tiny step away. A single deeply traumatic experience can be enough to send people over the edge because such is the perfidious nature of insanity. I mean, if one single episode of GoT can subvert 8 years of narrative build-up and if one single Star Wars movie can ruin a beloved almost religious entertainment franchise, it's really not hard to imagine.
 
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Miku Miku

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That's the one thing that D&D understood about GRRM. The common theme in all of his fantasy books is a harsh critique of monarchical hierarchies and societal structures, where the power plays of the noble elite always come at the cost of the general population. While the powerful few are making their schemes for the throne, the common folk, the peasants and the have-nots find themselves crushed in a never-ending conflict. Daenerys is no different than all the others who stake their claims for the absolutist power over others.

Sure, Daenerys likes to think of herself as better, more just and rightful, pretending that she cares about the common folk, but that's exactly what makes her more dangerous than the others who don't indulge in such self-delusions. "Bend the knee or die" is exactly the kind of reductive black and white thinking that leads to the abuse of power. Be it Tywin, Aerys, Ned, Stannis, Robert or Daenerys, the Game of Thrones is a game with no winners, a game where you can only lose and that seems to be at the core of GRRM's books.

All the people who thought that Daenerys was different, who are complaining that she never showed any signs of being overly ambitious, prone to violence and power hungry clearly have not understood the central message of GRRM's story. Daenerys only cares about the common folk so long as she gets what she wants, so long as she can claim the throne. Getting rid of tyrants by resorting to tyrannical means is clearly the wrong way to go about things as the French revolution and many other historical examples have shown.

The past 7 seasons have clearly shown that Daenerys only plays nice if she gets what she wants and that her ambitions are more important than the well-being of others. Those complaining that her descent into madness was way too quick should be aware that oftentimes the abyss is just one tiny step away. A single deeply traumatic experience can be enough to send people over the edge because such is the perfidious nature of insanity. I mean, if one single episode of GoT can subvert 8 years of narrative build-up and if one single Star Wars movie can ruin a beloved almost religious entertainment franchise, it's really not hard to imagine.
Good post.

If you rewatch that battle and look at Greyworm, you can see it on his face. He's lost everything, and he's fine killing these people. It looks believable. And really with Dany it isn't that different. These people are paying for her 8 years of struggle and death. That building represents everything they fought to get to for 8 years, and they aren't going to just let that be it. It fell too quick to be worth all that 8 years, all the deaths, her dragons, her family, her friends. It's not a rational position so much as an emotional one. Again, just rewatch it and look at Greyworm and tell me it doesn't make sense what is happening with his character.
 
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PrCat88

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When was that interview given? It's possible that was misdirection, or at the time they didn't know the outline of George RR Martin's end.
Man, everything around the edges of this show - the performances, the sets, stunts, effects, makeup, costumes, music - everything that brings the show together is so great.

But the quality of writing has been in decline since they ran out of book and at this point it's a fucking nosedive.

Varys went out with a wimper, nothing to say. Euron decided to fight a dragon with one scorpion instead of thirty this time, you know, which worked last time. He also doesn't seem shocked to wash up on the same island as Jaime, who for all he knows is a straight-up deserter. Cersei has done absolutely nothing other than stand in a tower looking upset. Remember when she orchestrated the destruction of the citadel? Yeah, nothing this time, she's just a prop. Her ending with Jaime was, well... fine, but there was nothing more to it than that. Cleganebowl was pretty good, but that writes itself.

Oh, yeah, and her. If you think they've "been building to" a mad queen ending because everyone's talked about the possibility of it on the internet, or because she's been a bit moody for a few episodes, sorry, you're wrong. It's the absolute laziest way to wrap up her arc quickly, such a painfully obvious and boring decision because, just like the Night King, just like Cersei and Jaime, just like so many others, the writers can't think of anything remotely clever without GRRM's help. She snaps from "ruthless but merciful" to "slaughtering babies" in a heartbeat and D&D have already admitted it was spontaneous. Fuck right off.

Dany's 1 episode arc be like
Varys did have something to say before the end... "I hope you're right and I'm wrong." Which is about all you could expect. He doesn't blame Tyrion for turning him in, just hopes the outcome will be what Tyrion believes rather than what he anticipates.

Got nothing on the Euron/Jamie fight which I felt was put there for theatrics. But I will say the tactics Dany uses this time by starting off higher and then nosediving in front of sunlight to throw their aim off was a better tactic than merely allowing yourself to be an open target like the previous episode.

And it wasn't just the internet talking about Dany possibly living up to her father's insanity. Plenty of characters suspected as much. But her council helped keep her impulses in check, and after enough failures one can have their will broken. Was King's Landing surrendering truly the victory she wanted? Evidently not.

The expectations people need to justify or make sense of her decision seems Impossible, and it is, but not because you can't show examples of what would motivate her. No one wants to believe someone they like or are interested/invested in is capable of snapping and committing mass murder. When such carnage happens here in real life how many people strive to find the motive for why they snapped? Was it the parents? Upbringing? Bullying? Political outlook? It can go on. When someone crosses that line it ultimately doesn't matter. We have reasons that show what might have pushed someone over the edge, but it'll never excuse or justify it.
 
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Tesseract

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so do we know what dany whispered to jorah before she burned him?

that's a bran worg moment if i ever saw it
 
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vpance

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I see a lot of thick people not realizing what Danny was going to become. Wether you guys like it or not this is what GRRM has in mind for his story. I reckon he will write it a lot better than D&D though
That goes without saying for any novel to TV/movie adaptation. You can go way more into detail behind characters motivations at any point in time.

That said, if they went deep into her motivations for the heel turn before it happened it wouldn't have had the same impact. Like if they had a 5 min montage of her crying and screaming into a pillow with a Linkin Park cover playing in the background pre battle. That would be stupid.
 
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stickkidsam

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Yes. Government is inherently evil. Government/Kings force you to do things against your own will. They force their will on you, that is evil by definition. Whether their will yields positive or negative results is another argument/topic but that doesn’t negate the fact that they force you to violate your own conscience through the threat of force/violence. That’s a fact and it’s evil.
That is one fact that doesn't even always apply, and it is not necessarily evil. If you wish to kill someone but the governing power stops you via force, are they evil or have they stopped an evil? To say that force can only be evil would leave you powerless to stop real evil. Is a parent evil for exerting their will upon their child, despite that child's wishes? Is your older brother evil for stopping you from doing something that could've put you in a lot of danger? These are just basic examples. Force can be evil. That does not mean it is. It is merely a means to an end.

The existence of government/kings inherently assumes that some humans are superior to others and they know best. Humans gonna human but people keep denying this reality. Since the dawn of mankind, it’s been all about people trying to impose their will on others and others resisting that will, it’s a human tragedy. It’s everlasting.
Is it a tragedy? To the King who's will is a world that prevents unnecessary suffering and a safe haven for his people, is this tragic? To the government that allows its people immutable rights as individuals, allowing them to pursue more than they ever could, is that tragic? Your verdict assumes that people are merely victims of a structure of governing rather than willing participants. There are good governing powers and evil ones, but they are not one and the same.

Some humans are in fact, superior than others (don't confuse this to mean in their value as a human being). That doesn't mean they are in every way, but the ones that lead (in the best of systems) will be there because they were superior in their ability to lead and rule. Superior in their ability to conduct their people. It is not immoral to be superior, and the same goes for inferior. Humans are creatures that strive to struggle so they can become greater. Whether that's in our skills or in our social world.

Also, a benevolent dictator can exist? Lol. How’s that even possible, do you actually know the meaning of a dictator?
dic·ta·tor
noun
a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.

be·nev·o·lent
adjective
well meaning and kindly.

So in a system in which there can be only one power, it is possible that a well meaning and kindly person would seek to obtain that power so that they may use it to better their nation.

The writing was good. It’s consistent with reality. Humans gonna human.
Humans are not all interchangeable. To take characters that we have gotten to know over 7 long seasons, with all of their individual strengths and flaws, only to have them all clutch the stupid stick like it's their turn to smack the pinata is ludicrous. It is not compelling. It was not well written just because bad people exist. It was out of left field and unearned as a payoff.

I'll be the first to say that the episode was incredibly well made, with wonderful performances from the cast, brilliant effects, and directing. That does not mean that within the context of the actual story that it is good. I'd say it's terrible and incredibly forced. When almost every problem could be fixed by normally smart people not being complete idiots, it is not well written.
 
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Fox Mulder

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Honestly I don't get the complaints about the scorpions. They seemed to have limited aim. They could only aim up on a 45°. When they took out a dragon last week, it was a surprise attack on a dragon with no rider. When dany rushed them in that episode she was able to evade and test their range. This was all shown to the viewers.

In this episode she descend on them from above right inline with the sun. She evaded bolts just like the previous episode and used the limited firing capability to her advantage. When I saw the design of the scorpions on the ships and the placement on the walls it seemed like an easily defeatable armament by playing angles.
I don't buy there being strategy to it. They were just OP for plot reasons and then easily destroyed for plot reasons.
 
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Jon Neu

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That's not how criticism works. This board would be very small if it were.

Her becoming the mad queen is only foreshadowed if you choose to go ahead with that ending, and it's such a shit, boring one. Such an easy way out of having to write anything remotely clever, just like the night king. She's been shown throughout the whole show to be ruthless but merciful, the audience has been conditioned to love her, they present her as this messiah figure with a bit of an angry side, and then suddenly in the final few episodes she "snaps" and decides to burn thousands of innocent people including children alive. There's such little justification for such an enormous character change. I never liked her in the first place but I can totally see why anyone that did is pissed. It's just super sloppy writing.
I think Dany going off as a villain is one of the most epic moments in the history of television.

It was foreshadowed, but just not so much as to make it too obvious, so everybody and her dog can watch the show and love her character; I would name my baby Khalessi or Daenerys! The mother of dragons! She was a beloved and such an iconic character, she was even presented by some as the embodiment of feminism and a good representation of women in power, lots of little girls loved her and had her as their hero/role model, and that's why this twist is so fucking delicious.

Did you saw the Burlington Bar video? Look at their faces in despair, they have their jaws dropped for literally minutes and minutes, they are in shock, they feel a mix of denial, anger and sorrow; no other show has accomplished a reaction like this in it's audience ever. We are literally watching something magical and I'm enjoying every fucking minute of it.