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GameCube Component Cables

lancubap

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
No it isn't. Just no. Stop.

What ? So, please explain me how it works !

Definition:

Dolby Pro Logic II technology processes any high quality stereo (two-channel) movie and music into five playback channels of full-bandwitch surround sound.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what Dolby say about his own technology.

EDIT:

So, I have found another source:

"Dolby Pro Logic II is an advanced matrix decoder that derives five-channel surround (Left, Center, Right, Left Surround, and Right Surround) from any stereo program material, whether or not it has been specifically Dolby Surround encoded. On encoded material such as movie soundtracks, the sound is more like Dolby® Digital 5.1 (see below), while on unencoded stereo material such as music CDs the effect is a wider, more involving soundfield. Among other improvements over Pro Logic, Pro Logic II provides two full-range surround channels, as opposed to Pro Logic's single, limited-bandwidth surround channel.

EDIT 2:
Now it is really clear. The use of the Prologic II is only a "wide" Stereo if the source is not decodified. It become a Surround simulation if it has been decodified.

It would be interesting to understand what change physically between a Stereo Output and a Pro Logic II output....Perhaps I'll do a EDIT 3 if I found something interesting.

EDIT 3: Oh my God, this thing is super interesting. Perhaps when I'll do the Master I'll do something like this. Take a look (the image 3 is similar to the image 4) so I put only the 4):

To understand the decoder, it is useful to see how four original source audio
signals are encoded into the two program channels that eventually feed the
decoder. These signals are called Lt and Rt, for left-total and right-total. ("Total"
means they contain all the encoded audio channels, not just left and right.) See the
Figure.

0,1425,i=1268,00.gif


In this case, there are four "cardinal" input signals: Left, Center, Right, and
Surround (L, C, R, S). The L and R inputs go straight to the Lt and Rt encoder
outputs without modification. The C input is divided equally to Lt and Rt with a 3
dB level reduction (to maintain constant acoustic power in the mix). The S input
is also reduced by 3 dB, but before being divided equally between Lt and Rt, the
signal has 90-degree phase shift applied relative to L, C, and R. Finally, the S
signals are carried in Lt/Rt with opposite polarities (note the "-" sign in the
summing stage feeding the Lt output).

0,1425,i=1269,00.gif


The simplest form of surround decoder subtracts the Rt signal from the Lt, as
shown in Figure 2. If only an S signal is present at the encoder, the signals in Lt
and Rt are identical but of opposite polarity. When these signals are subtracted
in the passive decoder, they create the surround output signal as desired.

If only a C input signal is present at the encoder, the signals in Lt and Rt are
identical. When subtracted in the passive decoder, they cancel each other
completely, leaving only silence at the S output, which is again the desired
result. This shows that there is very high channel separation between C and S,
even when using a passive decoder.

If the Lt and Rt signals are random (not purely C or S), the Lt-Rt process will
produce the difference signal at the S output. As a result, it is impossible for any
sounds panned away from dead center to be removed from the S output. The
channel separation between front and surround signals can be as low as 3 dB in
a passive decoder.

The job of an active decoder like Pro Logic or Pro Logic II is to keep a dominant
signal such as dialogue from leaking from the surround speakers whether it is
directly in the center channel, slightly off center, or even panned all the way to
the full left or right of the soundstage. For example, if dialogue is placed "half
right" (at the same levels into the C and R inputs of the encoder in Figure 1), the
passive L-R decoder will not cancel all the dialogue in the surround output
because the level of dialogue in Lt is lower than the level in Rt.

To make full cancellation occur in the S output, the amounts of dialogue in Lt
and Rt feeding the S channel decoder need to be made equal. This can be done
by putting VCAs into the Lt and Rt signals feeding the subtraction stage, and
adjusting their gains in opposite directions from a common control signal as
shown in Figure 3. As the gain rises in one VCA, it falls in the other. By adjusting
this control precisely, the leakage of any dialogue signal panned anywhere
between L and R (including C) can be completely eliminated from the S output.

0,1425,i=1271,00.gif


To automatically maintain the balance of the two signals feeding the subtraction
stage under dynamically changing signal conditions, a feedback "servo" circuit
compares the levels of these two signals after full-wave rectification (FWR), and
adjusts the VCA control to force them to be equal (see Figure 4).
The C output is created by adding (instead of subtracting) the same two
balanced VCA output signals.
Since the L and R signals are being adjusted by the VCAs, this is known as the
decoder's Left-Right axis. There is also a Front-Back axis in the decoder,
operating orthogonally to the Left-Right axis, which uses the same basic
technique to servo the L+R (front) signal versus the L-R (back) signal to reduce
crosstalk in the L and R outputs.
By creating a feedback system around the logic steering process, certain benefits
can be attained:

• The antiphase signals feeding the output matrix are able to be matched to
the unwanted crosstalk signal levels with high precision and low circuit
complexity, thereby ensuring high channel separation.

• The steering logic control time constants are within a feedback loop, so as
the loop gain changes, so does the response time. Dynamically, there is a
greater "speed to smoothness ratio" than is possible in a feed-forward
system, leading to an ideal balance between fast action and stable
operation while using relatively simple circuitry.

In Pro Logic, the Front-Back and Left-Right axes are controlled by a single
slow/fast circuit. If either axis wants to steer fast, they both go fast. Only when
both want to go slow can the logic decoder switch to the slow mode. In Pro Logic
II, each axis operates independently, so they decide how fast to go based on
their individual conditions. Also, the logic speed range is continuously variable in
Pro Logic II, rather than having two fixed rates as in Pro Logic.

These are just some of the more obvious aspects of the new decoder design
principles. The end result is that the Pro Logic II decoder can process any kind of
source material without changing the core logic steering parameters. Since
movies often contain music to a significant degree, a decoder needs to handle
dialogue, music, and effects equally well without creating side-effects.

That's why I love Physics.
 
lancubap said:
What ? So, please explain me how it works !

Definition:

Dolby Pro Logic II technology processes any high quality stereo (two-channel) movie and music into five playback channels of full-bandwitch surround sound.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what Dolby say about his own technology.

It isn't as good as 5.1. It isn't even close.

How Nintendo uses pro logic II is as follows: they create the soundtrack in PROPER 5.1 and then MusyX DOWNGRADES it to PLII. It's nowhere close. So don't kid yourself.

Nintendo should be using DD5.1, but they're cheap. End of story. It's not even close to comparable.
 

lancubap

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
It isn't as good as 5.1. It isn't even close.

How Nintendo uses pro logic II is as follows: they create the soundtrack in PROPER 5.1 and then MusyX DOWNGRADES it to PLII. It's nowhere close. So don't kid yourself.

Nintendo should be using DD5.1, but they're cheap. End of story. It's not even close to comparable.

Ok. Ok. I understand your point. But I have NEVER said that Pro Logic II is as good as 5.1; I have copy/paste what the article says: "almost as good as......".
It is not my opinion. I try only to find some information about this Pro Logic II and it seems (and not "it is") that Pro Logic II is a good simulation (so not a real surround).
It is what I have said since the beginning: "Pro Logic II is an imitation of 5.1" and many said that it is a good imitation, nothing more, nothing less.
So, please, don't become so nervous, it is useless.
 
DPLII sounds pretty good through a DPLII or Logic 7 decoder. Sure, I'd rather have 5.1.

The thing that really blows me away is that they aren't even giving a digital output. Even the Gamecube had digital 16-bit 48khz PCM Stereo/DPLII output, though the stupid component cable didn't do anything with it. To have to take low-res digital audio and convert it to analog, only to have your receiver convert it back to digital for processing, in 2006 is fecking ridiculous.
 
lancubap said:
Ok. Ok. I understand your point. But I have NEVER said that Pro Logic II is as good as 5.1; I have copy/paste what the article says: "almost as good as......".
It is not my opinion. I try only to find some information about this Pro Logic II and it seems (and not "it is") that Pro Logic II is a good simulation (so not a real surround).
It is what I have said since the beginning: "Pro Logic II is an imitation of 5.1" and many said that it is a good imitation, nothing more, nothing less.
So, please, don't become so nervous, it is useless.

It's not a question of "being nervous", it's the fact it is NOT a good imitation of 5.1 surround, regardless of what Dolby themselves are saying. It's a highly inferior codec that not as many people have compared to 5.1. :p
 

NotMSRP

Member
jarosh said:
Yes, I read that carefully before posting. I am still asking the question. Playasia sells both component and D-terminal, both are the Japanese version. The above poster said D-terminal is an equivalent of component. This does not mean D-terminal is the only one in Japan by that statement. It is possible to conclude that there may be TVs with both or only component. If there are only D-terminal connectors on TVs than why a Japanese component cable exists? I do not know how connectors are like in Japan. I only guess that it is possible that one may be been introduced eariler than the other one or a lack of standization at the time. If there are components in Japan, it makes sense for the companies to manufacture TVs with compoents over D-terminal which makes it easier to sell both domestically and internationally. Thinking is much more fundamental than reading.
 

Zapp and Roger

More Bounce to the Ounce
Dragona Akehi said:
It's not a question of "being nervous", it's the fact it is NOT a good imitation of 5.1 surround, regardless of what Dolby themselves are saying. It's a highly inferior codec that not as many people have compared to 5.1. :p

QFT...This statement remains for any PLII signal versus 5.1 ...PLII is nothing more than out-of-phase stereo signals that would try to normally make 2 speakers "surround" you piped to rear speakers..this is vastly different than a separately recorded track for rear audio...
 

jarosh

Member
Zapp and Roger said:
QFT...This statement remains for any PLII signal versus 5.1 ...PLII is nothing more than out-of-phase stereo signals that would try to normally make 2 speakers "surround" you piped to rear speakers..this is vastly different than a separately recorded track for rear audio...
well, it's true that actual 5.1 is infinitely superior to dpl2, but your description of logic 2 is lacking. what you describe is logic 1.
 
Asskicker064 said:
Well, the Wii won't be here until October at best. I just bought this HDTV so I want something to show it off with. I'll probably just pick up an Xbox tonight. Again, ****ing Nintendo.

Oh, here's the email I got back from Nintendo:

Damn guys, it's hard making a cable that doesn't even have audio support. Sure gives one a lot of confidence in the Wii component cable.

You're paying $50 to show off an HDTV with a gamecube? Brilliant, just brilliant.
 

bachikarn

Member
Sorry to bump, but is the only place to get these things on eBay now? Also, I've seen like the Japanese versions of the cables. Are the inputs the same as the US GC?
 

Xdrive05

Member
I bought them from Play-Asia about three weeks ago for $55, but now they're out of stock. Check around and look for the Japanese version of them, as they are more available and they work all the same.
 

beelzebozo

Jealous Bastard
Paradoxal_Utopia said:
You're paying $50 to show off an HDTV with a gamecube? Brilliant, just brilliant.

my gamecube games look as good as (often better than) my xbox or ps2 games when i run them in progressive. i've got a samsung 50" plasma flat screen, and the bright, organic colors of games like pikmin and metroid prime are seriously breathtaking. ninja gaiden is the only xbox game that--to borrow the old gaf adage--made me say "wow," but besides that, nyeh.

360 games look great on hdtv, most definitely, but i haven't scooped one up yet. waiting for something to force me to buy one (bioshock, too human [big eternal darkness fan, in case anyone's wondering why i still care], assassin's creed, maybe even gears of war depending on reviews).
 

-james-

Member
bachikarn said:
Sorry to bump, but is the only place to get these things on eBay now? Also, I've seen like the Japanese versions of the cables. Are the inputs the same as the US GC?

Ive been searching for a set of these also since i bought a new HD set and finally have enough inputs. The only place i could find them was ebay, some going for over $70.
 

-james-

Member
Will the JPN version of this cable work with NA gamecubes? Ive been searching ebay for these and came across alot of the JPN imports, anyone try it?
 

yonder

Member
Diablos said:
Why are GameCube component cables so expensive?

I got my PS2 component cable for like $5. Ditto for my Xbox one.
That's a good question.

Anybody know where you can get them or do I have to wait for Wii?
 

Xdrive05

Member
Yonn said:
That's a good question.

They quit making them like two years ago and the demand is high (due to so few digital out Gamecubes, and the adoption of HDtv).

I don't even have an HDtv, rather a really good SDtv with component inputs. It's still a good improvement over S-video, which is a huge leap over composites on my set.
 
So, question, do component cables make Cube/PS2/Xbox look significantly better on an HDTV? I should be getting one for Christmas and I want it to replace my standard def TV (it has some annoying burn-ins), but I hear that standard def games look bad no matter what.
 

Xdrive05

Member
brandonh83 said:
So, question, do component cables make Cube/PS2/Xbox look significantly better on an HDTV? I should be getting one for Christmas and I want it to replace my standard def TV (it has some annoying burn-ins), but I hear that standard def games look bad no matter what.

Yeah, they look way better, even on SDtv. And I mean waaaay better. Composite -> S-video is a bigger leap, IMO, but component goes beyond that, and especially if you have an HDtv.

I was skeptical at first until I actually tried it, and the difference is massive.
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
I originally wound up buying mine on eBay for about $40. I was a little irked until I saw F-Zero GX running in widescreen progressive scan and quickly forgot about the money. The real kicker is that I later found the cables at a Gamestop in the used section for about $5. They had no idea what they had. Even already having a set, I couldn't pass that up. Yes, I have an extra set of them (and even the nifty original Japanese box). I've often comtemplated doing a crazy "post a picture of yourself doing this or that for my GC component cables" thread, but I'm not sure how that'd fly with the administration.
 
Xdrive05 said:
Yeah, they look way better, even on SDtv. And I mean waaaay better. Composite -> S-video is a bigger leap, IMO, but component goes beyond that, and especially if you have an HDtv.

I was skeptical at first until I actually tried it, and the difference is massive.

Yeah, I have component cables for my SDTV, it certainly is an improvement... I'm just hoping my HDTV can replace my SDTV completely... don't some HDTV's support 480i? Wouldn't that be the best for, say, SNES?
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
brandonh83 said:
Yeah, I have component cables for my SDTV, it certainly is an improvement... I'm just hoping my HDTV can replace my SDTV completely... don't some HDTV's support 480i? Wouldn't that be the best for, say, SNES?

All HD sets "support" 480i, it's just that they have to resample it to their native resolution, which depending on your TV's scaler, can sometimes make things look fairly crappy. To me, 480i stuff tends to look better on a good interlaced set and I don't like what most HD sets do to the image, but I've learned to live with it. Higher-end sets with great scalers may not be as bad.
 
tedtropy said:
All HD sets "support" 480i, it's just that they have to resample it to their native resolution, which depending on your TV's scaler, can sometimes make things look fairly crappy.

Gotcha, thanks. I suppose there's no way around it, I'll just have to keep my SDTV. It just sucks because I'm living in a smaller apartment on a college campus... not really much room for two televisions.
 
brandonh83 said:
Yeah, I have component cables for my SDTV, it certainly is an improvement... I'm just hoping my HDTV can replace my SDTV completely... don't some HDTV's support 480i? Wouldn't that be the best for, say, SNES?

Almost all HDTVs support SDTV as well. Usually the exceptions tend to be LCD monitors or euro stuff.

Anyway, 480i quality varies a lot depending on the set. I picked out my plasma (see the sticky hdtv thread) in part because it does such an amazing job with 480i content. You'll definitely want to try a set instore before you buy, but there are ones out there that will do a good job with your old systems.
 
Crazymoogle said:
Almost all HDTVs support SDTV as well. Usually the exceptions tend to be LCD monitors or euro stuff.

Anyway, 480i quality varies a lot depending on the set. I picked out my plasma (see the sticky hdtv thread) in part because it does such an amazing job with 480i content. You'll definitely want to try a set instore before you buy, but there are ones out there that will do a good job with your old systems.

Thanks, I guess there's no real way to determine what certain signals will look like based on website specifications... I'll keep that in mind.

And sorry guys, didn't mean to get off-topic.
 
brandonh83 said:
Thanks, I guess there's no real way to determine what certain signals will look like based on website specifications... I'll keep that in mind.

Case in point: SOTN looks better on my new set than it ever did on my CRT. But it looked awful on a 50" LG LCD. There's so much variety in filtering going on right now that you have to look in person, sadly.

RCA -> S-Video is definitely a bigger jump than S-Video -> Component, but the comp cables are definitely worth it for GC users since such a large chunk of the library is 480p. I think I want to sell my cables though...
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
brandonh83 said:
Gotcha, thanks. I suppose there's no way around it, I'll just have to keep my SDTV. It just sucks because I'm living in a smaller apartment on a college campus... not really much room for two televisions.

I would just keep your old set until you've owned the newer HD one long enough to determine if you're happy with how it displays 480i content. You may get lucky and find a set that does a good job of reproducing it. Personally, I may pick up an interlaced set just for those N64 moments and because the damn Guncon 2 isn't HD-compatible.
 
ant1532 said:
what? why would you use 480p cables without a TV capable of displaying a 480p signal... that makes no sence at all
They're not "480p cables," they're component cables. They provide significantly better color and sharpness whether your TV supports progressive scan or not. I got my Cube component cables back when they were easily available for MSRP and I didn't yet have an HDTV. It still made a huge difference. Everything is sharper and brighter, it's great. Now I have an HDTV so it's nice to be able to use progressive scan, but either way it helps a lot.

That said, I don't think that with an SDTV it's $90 worth.
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
Chris Remo said:
They're not "480p cables," they're component cables. They provide significantly better color and sharpness whether your TV supports progressive scan or not. I got my Cube component cables back when they were easily available for MSRP and I didn't yet have an HDTV. It still made a huge difference. Everything is sharper and brighter, it's great. Now I have an HDTV so it's nice to be able to use progressive scan, but either way it helps a lot.

That said, I don't think that with an SDTV it's $90 worth.

I have a pretty hard time discerning between the picture provided through a good s-video cable and component one on a 480i set. Either way, it's good to have the component one if just should you choose to upgrade your set down the road.
 
Crazymoogle said:
Case in point: SOTN looks better on my new set than it ever did on my CRT. But it looked awful on a 50" LG LCD. There's so much variety in filtering going on right now that you have to look in person, sadly.

RCA -> S-Video is definitely a bigger jump than S-Video -> Component, but the comp cables are definitely worth it for GC users since such a large chunk of the library is 480p. I think I want to sell my cables though...

So did you get that Viera then? I've still not had a chance myself...
 

Xdrive05

Member
tedtropy said:
I have a pretty hard time discerning between the picture provided through a good s-video cable and component one on a 480i set. Either way, it's good to have the component one if just should you choose to upgrade your set down the road.

My S-videos are Monster (got them new for like $12 at a GS) and the components are still noticeably better on my set, especially when it comes to contrast and color saturation. S-video did a really good job of separating the colors over composite, but the end result was still really dark and subdued compared to component.

Component >>> S-video >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Composite >>>>>>>>> Coaxial

As is my experience for an SD set.

:)
 
Xdrive05 said:
My S-videos are Monster (got them new for like $12 at a GS) and the components are still noticeably better on my set, especially when it comes to contrast and color saturation. S-video did a really good job of separating the colors over composite, but the end result was still really dark and subdued compared to component.

Component >>> S-video >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Composite >>>>>>>>> Coaxial

As is my experience for an SD set.

:)


PS: GameCube's SVHS output is TERRIBLY bad wheras the Component output (even without using progressive scan) is probably the best out of the three last generation systems.
 

Xdrive05

Member
beermonkey@tehbias said:
Put the $90 towards a Wii and buy the inevitable cheap component cable for it.

This is correct. When I get a Wii I'm selling my cube components (probably won't be worth as much then with the Wii released but I could still get $20 or so.)
 

Diablos

Member
Xdrive05 said:
They quit making them like two years ago and the demand is high (due to so few digital out Gamecubes, and the adoption of HDtv).
So what? My component cables are some house brand. PS2 cable being made by Electric Quarter (gold colored connectors); it's a very high quality cable. Xbox is some other generic brand. They both get the job done. eBay has tons of these.

Anyone who pays more than $10 for a component video cable is ripping themselves off. You would only need to get the really high quality component cables if you're using analog but upscaling to an HD display as well IIRC. And even then, as long as you get the right cheapo brand, it probably wouldn't matter.
 

Xdrive05

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
PS: GameCube's SVHS output is TERRIBLY bad wheras the Component output (even without using progressive scan) is probably the best out of the three last generation systems.

That might explain why the SVHS looks so dark and out of whack with the contrast on my set. It's a lot sharper than composite and the colors are a lot better too, but it's just too damn dark in places. It's *really* bad in the dark world of Metroid Prime Echoes. I can't even adjust the TV brightness and contrast enough to make it look right.

But yeah the components are ace. Nintendo shouldn't have pulled out on them like they did. (crappy Gamecube install base FTL).
 
Diablos said:
So what? My component cables are some house brand. PS2 cable being made by Electric Quarter (gold colored connectors); it's a very high quality cable. Xbox is some other generic brand. They both get the job done. eBay has tons of these.

Anyone who pays more than $10 for a component video cable is ripping themselves off. You would only need to get the really high quality component cables if you're using analog but upscaling to an HD display as well IIRC. And even then, as long as you get the right cheapo brand, it probably wouldn't matter.

GameCube's component cables have a DAC chip in them, which is why they were so expensive and no third party bothered to make them. They're the best cables for any videogame system until this next generation.
 

Diablos

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
GameCube's component cables have a DAC chip in them, which is why they were so expensive and no third party bothered to make them. They're the best cables for any videogame system until this next generation.
Can't they be made without a DAC chip?

I have a third party 3-in-1 s-video cable; it supports GameCube. Surely it would not have a DAC chip, I got it for like $8. It's not component, but it's still s-video, and third party.
 
Diablos said:
Can't they be made without a DAC chip?

I have a third party 3-in-1 s-video cable; it supports GameCube. Surely it would not have a DAC chip, I got it for like $8.

SVHS cables plug into the Analog out of the GC. You must have a DAC chip to use the digital out on GC... which is what carries the 480p signal.
 

Xdrive05

Member
Diablos said:
So what? My component cables are some house brand. PS2 cable being made by Electric Quarter (gold colored connectors); it's a very high quality cable. Xbox is some other generic brand. They both get the job done. eBay has tons of these.

Anyone who pays more than $10 for a component video cable is ripping themselves off. You would only need to get the really high quality component cables if you're using analog but upscaling to an HD display as well IIRC. And even then, as long as you get the right cheapo brand, it probably wouldn't matter.

What do you mean "so what"? That's why the demand is high for them.

Also, there are no "really high quality component cables" for the gamecube, only Nintendo ever made them. And there is in fact a huge difference, even with SDtv.

But I wouldn't pay more than $20 for them myself, with the Wii coming out. They're good but quickly becoming obsolete.
 

Diablos

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
SVHS cables plug into the Analog out of the GC. You must have a DAC chip to use the digital out on GC... which is what carries the 480p signal.
Ohh. I was unaware that there were two outputs for video on GC.
Makes sense now.

Xdrive: Excluding GameCube, cheap component cables do not make a difference for PS2/Xbox on SDTV. It's been discussed here numerous times before, so it's not like I'm just saying this.
 

Xdrive05

Member
Diablos said:
Xdrive: Excluding GameCube, cheap component cables do not make a difference for PS2/Xbox on SDTV. It's been discussed here numerous times before, so it's not like I'm just saying this.

Oh I believe you about that. I was just talking about for the GameCube, which is the weirdo of the three systems, having the separate port and DAC chip and all that. I picked up an el cheapo three way cable too and xbox and ps2 look great with it. You're definitely right about that.

Also, Monster cables don't amount to anything over the cheapos (ie, they are a waste of money).
 

Diablos

Member
Yep - comparison pics are exactly the same for the same type of cable.

Dragona, thanks, if I ever need another cable, I will check that place out.
 

Jasoco

Banned
I just received a set of Japanese Component cables from Lik-Sang today because I couldn't wait any longer for the Wii. (And its damn release date already!) Pretty nice.

Well..

I really don't see much of a difference between the S-Video cable I got (Mad Catz) and this new Component cable. Much. Though the games do look a bit nicer. Just not by much.

I don't have to set them up or something, do I?


Either way it's a hell of a lot nicer than SOTC and DQ8 on my PS2. (I weep at the fact that Jak 3 looks better than them on Component. Who do I blame for that atrocity?)
 
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