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[Gotdatmoney]

The "logic" behind his Triforce argument is about as sound as:

"We considered making Link female, but then we considered Octoroks, Tektites, and Boomerangs, and felt that it would mess with the balance."

I think we all agree the Triforce explanation is just stupid. But I think we all also know they just don't want to depict Link as female because they feel he is and should continue to be depicted as male.

Is there an actual counter argument to that?

 

[big_erk]

Fair enough, I wont argue that as I can't point to a TLoZ game where Link wasn't the protagonist.

There was a game where Zelda was the main character. Maybe this is why they are against the idea, as this game is better left forgotten.

Edit- I know this game wasn't developed by Nintendo.

 

[BGBW]

Boy, girl and pig.

Equal representation for all.

 

[John Dunbar]

i guess you could argue that whoever is the playable character necessary has the triforce of courage, and since zelda always has wisdom her being the mc would make things out of balance as she would have two out of three and link would be useless. of course you could easily fix that by just making a timeline where link has wisdom and zelda has courage.

 

[Boy Wander]

Thanks for your contribution. We'll add it to the pile.

Why are you getting all fucking superior about it? To a lot of people, it's a big deal and equally, to a lot of people it's not. Just because you reply with a shitty dismissive comment, it doesn't make your opinion more valid.

 

[GregLombardi]

Boy, girl and pig.

Equal representation for all.

lol

 

[mattiewheels]

We already knew Nintendo hates women, nothing to see here.

Wow, first Alison Rapp and now this. Nintendo really hates women.

I'm going to presuppose that perhaps Nintendo isn't an evil horde that hates all women. But hey, maybe I'm crazy.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

That Triforce excuse is hilarious.

 

[The_Lump]

It seems pretty clear to me. As it stands the triforce is in balance, with one girl and two guys. If Link became a girl then there would be two girls and only one guy, which would be out of balance.

Well as its 3 sided it's only balance is actually in good vs evil.

Wouldn't really be fair to have male good vs female evil (or visa versa), so the only logical conclusion is to have one of each gender as good and a......pig-thing-who occasionally-takes-male-human-form as evil.

If Link was female, they'd feel the need to make Zelda male to keep the above 'balance' and then we'd be remaking the foundation of the franchise for no apparent reason. /fantheoryintoAonumasmind.

 

[Kusagari]

That Triforce excuse might really be one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

A ten year old could rip it to shreds.,

 

[Wavebossa]

There was a game with 4 Links, the Triforce was clearly unbalanced, I demand that those games be erased.

Oh shit, completely forgot about this.

There was a game where Zelda was the main character. Maybe this is why they are against the idea, as this game is better left forgotten.


Edit- I know this game wasn't developed by Nintendo.

Completely forgot about this too.

What was Link doing in this game? Did we have to save him? I have honestly never played it

 

[DrWong]

1 man, 1 woman and ... 1 beast, Ganondorf is gender less.

Isn't Ganondorf black?

...

Oh oh oh!

 

[fargofallout]

The issue is more the rationalisations than the in-game result. Their justifications are lousy and they should know it. They really need to ask themselves "why really?" because these excuses don't hold up.

Agree 100%.

 

[Alienous]

I think we all agree the Triforce explanation is just stupid. But I think we all also know they just don't want to depict Link as female because they feel he is and should continue to be depicted as male.

Is there an actual counter argument to that?

That it isn't a good reason.

"Why should Link continue to be depicted as a male?"

And "because" isn't a good answer.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

These comments get worse and worse. Do they really expect people to say "ah, okay, this makes perfect sense, thank you."

 

[Darryl]

Link has ended the lives of thousands and I'm sure he feels just as justified in his actions as Ganon and his.

We're all monsters to someone.

You don't see fans clamouring for a female Ganon. No one gives a fuck. People want a female Link, a Prince Zelda. No one looks at Ganon. We have a feminine male, a masculine female, and a monster who takes the form of a man. The most obvious bend here is to change Ganon. People don't ask for it because it doesn't satisfy fan wish fulfillment, which is what this is conversation is really about.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You don't see fans clamouring for a female Ganon. No one gives a fuck. People want a female Link, a Prince Zelda. No one looks at Ganon. We have a feminine male, a masculine female, and a monster who takes the form of a man. The most obvious bend here is to change Ganon. People don't ask for it because it doesn't satisfy fan wish fulfillment, which is what this is conversation is really about.

I've seen more than my fair share of people who would like to see female Ganondorf. When Yuga was first shown, people thought he was female Ganon (or at least a female Gerudo) and were kind of excited.

 

[Big Green Anus]

Has Emily responded to this yet?

 

[Hcoregamer00]

How do you gender balance a triumvirate?

Have it with Parallel worlds a la Chrono Cross.

In one world Link is a woman, and in another world Link is a man.

BAM, solved your problem right there and added gender bending elements.

 

[Pau]

I think we all agree the Triforce explanation is just stupid. But I think we all also know they just don't want to depict Link as female because they feel he is and should continue to be depicted as male.

Is there an actual counter argument to that?

Well, we could always respond that it's limiting and we don't find it to be the best choice. Same way if they said they felt that the first two dungeons should always be Forest and Fire because that's how they feel. It's their game and their decisions at the end of the day, but we can always disagree with 'em.

 

[Boy Wander]

That it isn't a good reason.

"Why should Link continue to be depicted as a male?"

And "because" isn't a good answer.

Why shouldn't he?

 

[serenewarfare]

How is the "What would Link do?" excuse trash?

Let's say Zelda was the main character. Would there no longer be a Hyrule Castle? If there was, who would inhabit it? Prince Link? Judging by Aonuma's comments, the concept of the triforce is really important to them. The one who goes on the quest must be courageous, and therefore possess the triforce of courage. Should Zelda now have the triforce of courage? Should Prince Link have the triforce of wisdom? Should Nintendo bow to fan pressure on the Internet and change their 30 year characters even though 90% of people who buy their games don't really care?

Is there any point to all this besides changing things just for the sake of changing them?

You could so easily craft a narrative that "hey we have this big threat to Hyrule that is even bigger than any definition of the Triforce" that way you justify both Link and Zelda going on an adventure independent of one another. Justifying any design decision with "well the lore won't allow us to do otherwise" is dumb because as the creators of the game you have the ability to create new additions to the lore.

 

[Kneefoil]

But why not have a female Link in this big new game? “You know there’s the idea of the Triforce in the Zelda games we make,” he told Kotaku. “The Triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female. If we made Link a female we thought that would mess with the balance of the Triforce. That’s why we decided not to do it.”

Oh FFS, does it have to be about Ganon and the Triforce again? Two of the best Zelda stories (Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening) had neither. Actually, they didn't have Zelda either, but that's neither here nor there.


Oh, but I guess this thread isn't about that. Umm...

Honestly, I don't really care strongly either way on the subject. To me gender just doesn't matter in video games, or even most other things in life. Apparently it is important for some to be able to play as a female character though, and well, I guess I'm rooting for those guys. Having a choice is very rarely a bad thing.

However, they better not do the thing where they have two characters that go through almost the same adventure, dungeons, puzzles, etc. but have some story differences. I hate it when you have to play through the same game twice or more just to get the full story.

 

[MrBadger]

But why not have a female Link in this big new game? “You know there’s the idea of the Triforce in the Zelda games we make,” he told Kotaku. “The Triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female. If we made Link a female we thought that would mess with the balance of the Triforce. That’s why we decided not to do it.”

This makes absolutely no sense...why don't they just say "because Link is a male character" and be done with it? Why do they they even need to think of excuses?

 

[Lux R7]

Nintendo has nothing to apologize about imho. Link is a character, the hero of the Zelda series and he is male.

 

[The Silver]

I'll take a female Ganondorf, there must be balance

 

[Pau]

You don't see fans clamouring for a female Ganon. No one gives a fuck. People want a female Link, a Prince Zelda. No one looks at Ganon. We have a feminine male, a masculine female, and a monster who takes the form of a man. The most obvious bend here is to change Ganon. People don't ask for it because it doesn't satisfy fan wish fulfillment, which is what this is conversation is really about.

Well yes it's about wanting a playable female character.

Playing as Ganon would be... quite the narrative twist though.

 

[Merc_]

That it isn't a good reason.

"Why should Link continue to be depicted as a male?"

And "because" isn't a good answer.

Because that's how they like the character?

 

[Galactic Barret]

That doesn't even resemble a compelling argument. Let me try to help you.

That an established franchise that has starred a male character for 30 years is still not letting you play as a female is for the better because...

Now your turn.

I have an intense fear of voicing my opinions in these kind of threads because dissenters seem to be banned frequently, and I don't want that. I have spoiler tagged my opinion just in case.

Spoiler

How is it worse because BotW doesn't have a female character?

Isn't this starting to get a bit ridiculous? Like I mentioned in the Berserk Musou thread, ever since gamergate, there has been an outpouring of strong, non-sexualized female main characters in various games throughout various genres spanning multiple consoles. Yet these games are overlooked as a benefit to the cause, and it seems like EVERY game that doesn't have an option for one should have a strong, non-sexualized female character option because... options are better. That sounds almost exactly like 'All games should be multiplatform because competition is good'.

Is this not the definition of entitlement?

I am legitimately confused as to why this vocal group is suddenly the 'least represented group' and over-rules others. We need more well-portrayed Hispanic MCs, lets make Link Hispanic. We need more well-portrayed Blacks, let make him Black. Native American. Why not? There seems to be a true lack of appreciation for the strides the entire industry has made to try to be more inclusive of Females/The Feminist movement, when I, myself, would kill to have as much representation for my heritage. Look at the Youtube comment section for Mafia III and Watch_Dogs 2; African Americans face just as much, if not more, derision for inclusion.

I've done the soul-searching, asked my wife, female gamers, and I still don't have the answer. So I'm asking where I can: Why is this looking suspiciously like greed and entitlement when you are getting what the group asked for in the first place?

I love playing as female characters, and I do sympathize with the cause, but shouldn't it be more inclusive than only women? Your voices are being heard, so why not help out the other less-represented groups? Why not help the fight for a Native American Ryder?

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think the best-case scenario is (unfortunately) that Nintendo will take the backlash and give us a spin-off starring Zelda instead of a main game.

It'll be a Professor Layton-style puzzle game because her gimmick is wisdom :v

Nintendo has nothing to apologize about imho. Link is a character, the hero of the Zelda series and he is male.

And what of their reason for why Zelda is not or cannot be playable?

 

[KorrZ]

That it isn't a good reason.

"Why should Link continue to be depicted as a male?"

And "because" isn't a good answer.

Because that's what his character has always been established as? Why should he be a female? Is there an actual reason creatively or just because?

 

[jdstorm]

So you're saying a Zelda game can't be driven by a female character unless said female dresses like a man? Because thats what you're saying and I cant blame you. Zelda was kicking ass as Sheik in OoT until 30 seconds into revealing that he in fact was a she (Zelda) and promptly got kidnapped. Why would we think a girl can be the main character in a Zelda game ever after all?

Wow. You definitely missed the point. In OoT Zelda was the 7th Sage and She gets kidnapped when all the sages unite their powers to stop Gannondorf. Zelda could have survived as Shiek without trying to stop Gannondorf and have been completely fine. Yet since Zelda/Shiek trains and guides link all through OoT, even the act of Link rescuing her is giving Zelda Agency. Link was her backup plan So she's hardly a damsel in distress.

Wind Waker does less well with the Zelda getting captured motif, however Ganon has been hunting Zelda the whole game and he needs some success in order to establish him as a credible threat. However Zelda is a key part of the final boss fight and is actively fighting Gannon alongside link.

Skyward Sword is another example where Zelda is a character with agency, She isn't even Kidnapped or taken hostage by Ganon, but rather she sacrifices herself to try and contain Ganon and Asks link to wake her up if they succeed. So Zelda has complete agency.

I haven't played Twilight Princess, due to never owning a GameCube/Wii so I won't comment on that. However 3/4 Mainline 3D Zelda games managing to imbue their "princess" with levels of agency rarely seen in supporting characters/CoLead of either gender. Should not be considered sexist

 

[big_erk]

Oh shit, completely forgot about this.




Completely forgot about this too.

What was Link doing in this game? Did we have to save him? I have honestly never played it

If I remember correctly Link was basically just missing for most of the game. Zelda does save him at the end even though it was kind of unintentional.

 

[The_Lump]

You could so easily craft a narrative that "hey we have this big threat to Hyrule that is even bigger than any definition of the Triforce" that way you justify both Link and Zelda going on an adventure independent of one another. Justifying any design decision with "well the lore won't allow us to do otherwise" is dumb because as the creators of the game you have the ability to create new additions to the lore.

But then you're asking the creators to change their own creation to the point it no longer resembles what they created.

I'd much rather see them create something else which represented the things I felt were missing from the first creation. That could be a separate game in the Zelda universe, sure.

 

[Serenitynow]

You could so easily craft a narrative that "hey we have this big threat to Hyrule that is even bigger than any definition of the Triforce" that way you justify both Link and Zelda going on an adventure independent of one another. Justifying any design decision with "well the lore won't allow us to do otherwise" is dumb because as the creators of the game you have the ability to create new additions to the lore.

And as the creators of the game you have the right to determine the gender and identity of your protagonist. I think that's what this boils down to ultimately and is hardly a reason for anyone to be upset. I understand disappointment though.

 

[AR15mex]

Really people? You are making a big deal out of this. People should play videogames for what they are!!! Everyone relax the game is still a game with a female or male avatar. As a matter of fact it doesnt change the game at all... Is not like mass effect where it would affect relationships. It is not part of the game. Why do people have to make an issue about gender? It just irritates me. Sometimes, I just wonder if this came with that gamer gate stuff...

 

[Captain Smoker]

I think the best-case scenario is (unfortunately) that Nintendo will take the backlash and give us a spin-off starring Zelda instead of a main game.

It'll be a Professor Layton-style puzzle game because her gimmick is wisdom :v



And what of their reason for why Zelda is not or cannot be playable?

Because the creators made the game like this? Like... they have the freedom to create it like this?

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I would love to hear how having two female and a male characters would upset the balance of the Triforce.

Two men and one woman, ah, yes, the Triforce is so balanced. Stable like the 3DS.

Two women and one man, oh damn, the Triforce is all messed up. It's so bad. We can't just leave it like this. This is simply not an option.

Again, do whatever you want. Create however you would like. But if this is your reasoning, you have a problem with how you view gender. You need education. They should have just stuck with "we really felt that the dynamic of Link/Zelda/Ganondord was a part of the series we didn't want to change."

None of this "Zelda simply cannot be the hero, what would Link do?" or "We don't want to upset the balance of the Triforce by adding another woman!" nonsense.

 

[Dreavus]

I'm not bothered by the option either way. Honestly it's their game too, they can do whatever they want when it comes to the "lore", rumors notwithstanding. However the justification about "triforce balance" was weak as hell. They probably just want to keep those three characters consistent "throughout the ages" whether or not it's the same literal person/character. I can see the value in that honestly. But citing balance and "what will Link do then?" is bad. They should have just said nothing at all.

It was fucking awesome when Zelda was playable in Hyrule Warriors. I know that that's a spin-off series, but that could easily lay ground for her to be an active character in the main series if they're worried about the female protagonist having to be Zelda. I would actually prefer that to a nondescript female Link. Maybe a parallel story line or something like that.

How come no one has addressed why Ganon is not a female character?

I don't know if you are being entirely serious, but I would guess that 1) In several cases it's the same Ganon returning, not a new reincarnation and 2) he's not the main, playable, character.

i guess you could argue that whoever is the playable character necessary has the triforce of courage, and since zelda always has wisdom her being the mc would make things out of balance as she would have two out of three and link would be useless. of course you could easily fix that by just making a timeline where link has wisdom and zelda has courage.

That would actually work great as a storyline justification. You could easily sneak a line in the opener about how this time, Courage went to Zelda's "soul" for whatever reason.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

That it isn't a good reason.

"Why should Link continue to be depicted as a male?"

And "because" isn't a good answer.

Because we designed him as a male and depicted him as such in the entirety of our companies history. We have him as an iconic symbol in Nintendo in the same vein as Mario or Samus and want to continue that legacy?

I don't understand how that isn't a valid answer. The argument against is essentially, every game should offer an option for gender.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

But why not have a female Link in this big new game? “You know there’s the idea of the Triforce in the Zelda games we make,” he told Kotaku. “The Triforce is made up of Princess Zelda, Ganon and Link. Princess Zelda is obviously female. If we made Link a female we thought that would mess with the balance of the Triforce. That’s why we decided not to do it.”

Stop it, Nintendo.

You're making it worse.

 

[Lakershead22]

I am in the opinion that I am fine with Link always being male. I just think the reasoning Aunoma gave was not very good.

 

[Lux R7]

And what of their reason for why Zelda is not or cannot be playable?

I guess their take on the story is that link does hero stuff, ganon does the bad stuff and Zelda does the wise stuff, and they don't want to change that.

 

[El Topo]

I think the best-case scenario is (unfortunately) that Nintendo will take the backlash and give us a spin-off starring Zelda instead of a main game.

It'll be a Professor Layton-style puzzle game because her gimmick is wisdom :v

That seems like a move that would inevitably backfire, because it would give the impression, maybe even rightly, that men get the big ambitious flagship game and women get the cheap spin-off.
Giving players the option to choose the gender seems the easiest and least problematic way to deal with this topic. No one loses anything if players have the option.

 

[BGBW]

Aonuma really wants to give Link a beard, much like the one he sports, but he didn't get his way. Swings and roundabouts eh.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

You could so easily craft a narrative that "hey we have this big threat to Hyrule that is even bigger than any definition of the Triforce" that way you justify both Link and Zelda going on an adventure independent of one another. Justifying any design decision with "well the lore won't allow us to do otherwise" is dumb because as the creators of the game you have the ability to create new additions to the lore.

You're right that they could do that. But the developers need to weigh that against every other design decision in the game.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

I think the best-case scenario is (unfortunately) that Nintendo will take the backlash and give us a spin-off starring Zelda instead of a main game.

It'll be a Professor Layton-style puzzle game because her gimmick is wisdom :v


And what of their reason for why Zelda is not or cannot be playable?

No lie, I would love this game. A Zelda with a stronger focus on puzzles and magic.

Sounds awesome.

 

[Uno Venova]

People ran with the female link story so hard even I believed it would happen. Oh well, can't get upset about something that was never actually true.

 

[Not]

Why are you getting all fucking superior about it? To a lot of people, it's a big deal and equally, to a lot of people it's not. Just because you reply with a shitty dismissive comment, it doesn't make your opinion more valid.

Don't really know why you're so pissed off. At least dozens of people have been popping in here without reading the thread with some dumb variation of "so why can't Samus be male."

Female -> Male ≠ Male -> Female. You can thank our society for that.

And if you want to rationalize it via made-up fictional ingame answers, as Aonuma is doing, Link isn't even the same person everytime. Until the lore specifically states that a boy has to be the hero every time whenever the girl gets kidnapped by the pig dude or it "doesn't count," that reincarnation justification holds up and differentiates Link from basically every other Nintendo character.

People ran with the female link story so hard even I believed it would happen. Oh well, can't get upset about something that was never actually true.

In the end, you're right. I'll still enjoy the heck out of this one, and see what happens in the future.

 

[YAWN]

That Triforce excuse might really be one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

A ten year old could rip it to shreds.,

Man, a 3 year old could rip it to shreds. For all Aonuma's great ideas, I'm not sure what the hell happened when answering these questions.

Its strange that despite the game having more freedom than ever, and taking ques from WRPGs which heavily feature character creators, they let this chance slip by them. I'm just hoping it was due to the massive game play changes, and wanting to see fan response on them first, that adding a female option may have been something they deemed risky.
Hopefully, with fan reaction being so positive, they can give more of what the fans want, i.e. a female option, come the next game, to truly perfect it.