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GameXplain: 5 Things 2D Mario Can Learn from Super Mario Run

nynt9

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Jun 7, 2013
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMi6vharIhw

When I first read the title, I rolled my eyes, but after watching the video I was really convinced by how good these ideas were. I'd also recommend watching the video and following the explanations instead of just reading the list.

1-
A nimbler Mario (auto-vaulting/edge grabbing etc)
2-
More unique characters (playable characters that play differently)
3-
Ditch the life counter (lives only punish players who are already bad, and they're meaningless. The bubble system is a lot better)
4-
Give coins a greater purpose (coins are meaningless normally, but the ability to buy buildings and perhaps unlock progression with them would make them meaningful again)
5-
Feature a world that evolves (how the mushroom kingdom changes and grows with your progression - adds replay value and a sense of progression)
 
Jan 20, 2010
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Give coins a greater purpose (coins are meaningless normally, but the ability to buy buildings and perhaps unlock progression with them would make them meaningful again)

so make grinding a part of mainline mario
 

nynt9

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so make grinding a part of mainline mario

I mean, they don't affect the levels and normal gameplay in any way, they just add more stuff to do for people who want to get more out of the game. You can finish every level in SMR and get every colored coin without interacting with the mushroom kingdom at all.
 

Neoleo2143

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Dec 21, 2015
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No edge grabbing in my 2d mario thank you, leave that for adventure games like Zelda and Metroid (and some 3D Marios).

Mario's moveset could use more mario 64 esque tools and complexity though, NSMBs took a step towards that but I'd like them to go whole hog.
 

Eolz

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Jun 1, 2014
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I really disagree with #3, just tweak it better.
#2 is not something from Super Mario Run, Nintendo knows how to use that already (whether in 2D, or 3D with SM64DS for example).

I kind of disagree with #1 too, but can see why some people would like it. It's something that doesn't work as well in 3D in the first place (play Assassin's Creed and watch yourself run against walls you didn't want to for example), and also a design choice that is not necessarily needed. Guess we'll see that at the event.
 

nynt9

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I really disagree with #3, just tweak it better.
#2 is not something from Super Mario Run, Nintendo knows how to use that already (whether in 2D, or 3D with SM64DS for example).

I kind of disagree with #1 too, but can see why some people would like it. It's something that doesn't work as well in 3D in the first place (play Assassin's Creed and watch yourself run against walls you didn't want to for example), and also a design choice that is not necessarily needed. Guess we'll see that at the event.

Recent ass creed games have more or less solved that problem though, especially if you familiarize yourself with the controls.
 

Piers

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Jun 26, 2012
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If anything I question the point of scoring from SMW onwards. Super Paper Mario was at least clever in that it tied it to experience points.
 

Eolz

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Recent ass creed games have more or less solved that problem though, especially if you familiarize yourself with the controls.

Do you think Nintendo will go for something that players can use "more or less" after familiarizing themselves with the controls? There's a reason Mario is super accessible.
edit: nvm, it's about the 2d games anyway
 
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Lives really only mattered when you had limited opportunities to save. Now that Mario games autosave pretty much everywhere they're kinda meaningless.
 
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Numbers 1-3 are some good points, but 4-5 aren't necessary at all, and are mechanics that Nintendo added to Mario Run because they align with mobile game design to psychologically keep players engaged.

Coins do have a purpose already - they are a game design tool mostly used to guide the players towards certain areas in a level or down certain paths (i.e. they might indirectly show the player the movement path/physics of a new powerup). 2D Mario is engaging enough that it doesn't need a shallow kingdom builder to make players feel psychologically good like a lot of lesser games - mastering its gameplay and levels is what should make you feel satisfied.

A kingdom builder like Fire Emblem Fates' is just there to keep you hooked to the game, either grinding for more coins or resources or checking back every day for some sort of trinket and to watch numbers go up. It'd be more busiwork that a game as pure as 2D Mario does *not* need.

Basically, just because a mechanic makes you feel psychologically good doesn't mean it's actually good. I don't think Mario needs to tie any sort of progression to how big an arbitrary number (coins) is.
 

jwhit28

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I would love if coins unlocked new characters or skins, sound FX, and music (SMW Mario, with SMB1 sounds, and SMB3 Athletic theme for example). SMW also had a world that changed as you progressed and a pallette swap for beating special world.
 
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It's nothing new for Mario though. The 3D Mario games do the same thing, just with stars or Star Bits.

Stars aren't the same thing - that's progression through skill and actually making your way through the game. It doesn't encourage grinding.

Star bits: That's true, I wouldn't mind some unlockable content done in that way.
 

nynt9

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Jun 7, 2013
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Numbers 1-3 are some good points, but 4-5 aren't necessary at all, and are mechanics that Nintendo added to Mario Run because they align with mobile game design to psychologically keep players engaged.

Coins do have a purpose already - they are a game design tool mostly used to guide the players towards certain areas in a level or down certain paths (i.e. they might indirectly show the player the movement path/physics of a new powerup). 2D Mario is engaging enough that it doesn't need a shallow kingdom builder to make players feel psychologically good like a lot of lesser games - mastering its gameplay and levels is what should make you feel satisfied.

A kingdom builder like Fire Emblem Fates' is just there to keep you hooked to the game, either grinding for more coins or resources or checking back every day for some sort of trinket and to watch numbers go up. It'd be more busiwork that a game as pure as 2D Mario does *not* need.

Basically, just because a mechanic makes you feel psychologically good doesn't mean it's actually good. I don't think Mario needs to tie any sort of progression to how big an arbitrary number (coins) is.

I mean, if it doesn't affect the base platforming levels in any way, what harm does it cause to have that side system there? In SMR it has no effect on the gameplay itself whatsoever.
 
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I mean, if it doesn't affect the base platforming levels in any way, what harm does it cause to have that side system there? In SMR it has no effect on the gameplay itself whatsoever.

That's probably the best thing that can happen, yeah - they have no impact on the main game at all. But it's just a cheap and lazy way to keep players coming back for more. I guess it's OK in 2D Mario where the core game is super good, but much less forgiveable in games that use it as a crutch to seem enjoyable.
 
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That's probably the best thing that can happen, yeah - they have no impact on the main game at all. But it's just a cheap and lazy way to keep players coming back for more. I guess it's OK in 2D Mario where the core game is super good, but much less forgiveable in games that use it as a crutch to seem enjoyable.

I don't think anyone would disagree there. The unlocks should never be a gameplay replacement, but they can certainly enhance a great foundation and reward you for your effort
 

LordRaptor

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They've obviously dabbled with alternate characters having alternate capabilities recently with NSLU, but it would be nice to integrate Doki Doki Panic style SMB into 'mainline' SMB.
 

spekkeh

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Really agree with 1-3, somewhat with 5. The bubble has a nice way of making you able to retry immediately or else go back a bit further to try out other things. 4 Can die in a fire, or it has to be completely extraneous. Maybe they could combine 4 and 5, the more coins you gather, the more opulent the castle becomes, but just as a nice easter egg. I'm really annoyed with the green star gating they started including in mainline Marios. It's okay if it's an end of level reward I guess, because you'll want to complete it anyway, but having to go back to grind levels over and over to search for something hidden is really annoying.

I find Marios work best if the levels are a natural extension of the character move set. The more extrinsic structures that are imposed, the more constricted the gameplay feels.
 

Moff

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Oct 15, 2012
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I have an Android phone so I haven't played run, yet. but all of those points make sense to me. 2D mario has become incredibly stale, I just bought NSMBU last week and I have hardly played it.
 

SatoAilDarko

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Mar 3, 2013
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I just want Toadette and Peach playable in the next one. Good to have more female choices. Also include Daisy of you include Peach. If you can have a Blue and Yellow Toad, Daisy as a Peach clone should be no problem.

Yoshi can be understandably absent considering he's a mount in the console games, not to mention he has his own series.
 

kunonabi

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All those points are rubbish or stuff already in Mario games. Nothing about Run is worth saddling an actual Mario games with.
 
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All those points are rubbish or stuff already in Mario games. Nothing about Run is worth saddling an actual Mario games with.

Not even multiple playable characters with unique attributes? I'd say we're long overdue for that to return to the 2D games
 

RM8

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Mar 11, 2012
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Not even multiple playable characters with unique attributes? I'd say we're long overdue for that to return to the 2D games
Yes! This would improve the formula so much. SMB2 is probably my most played Mario platformer (I used to say my favourite, but I love 1 through 3 almost equally) because I loved replaying it with the four different characters.
 

dh4niel

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I don't agree with any of it. Gameplay is perfect as it is. There's no point tacking on unnecessary bullshit.
 

nynt9

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I don't agree with any of it. Gameplay is perfect as it is. There's no point tacking on unnecessary bullshit.

None of these past #1 directly affect gameplay. Why does adding optional features that don't affect the gameplay hurt anyone? As for #1, with every mainline Mario iteration the controls and physics and Mario's moveset are refined. If there is a Mario iteration past the New series, the physics will surely change. So which iteration is the perfect one? Should they not have changed the physics in each game? Should they not progress from the NSMB physics ever again?

My point is that you're being hyperbolic.
 

TrojanAg

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May 19, 2016
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Disagree with having more characters that play differently. That's what happened to Sonic and it took away the focus from what made the games fun. Don't do the same thing to Mario. Having Peach/Toad/Luigi with their different play styles is enough for me.
 

StoveOven

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Jan 1, 2015
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So the first point is basically take the platforming out of the platformer. I get that it works with the way Mario Run is set up, but that wouldn't make much sense to me in a mainline Mario game. The rest could all be good if implemented correctly
 
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So the first point is basically take the platforming out of the platformer. I get that it works with the way Mario Run is set up, but that wouldn't make much sense to me in a mainline Mario game. The rest could all be good if implemented correctly

The guy directly addressed that in the video. Seems a lot of people are just reading the bulletpoints...
 

nynt9

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So the first point is basically take the platforming out of the platformer. I get that it works with the way Mario Run is set up, but that wouldn't make much sense to me in a mainline Mario game. The rest could all be good if implemented correctly

I mean, there's still interesting platforming to be had regardless of whether you get stuck by a foot tall square or not when walking. In fact, getting stuck on stuff like that is the least interesting type of platforming. And if you watch the video, he suggests that maybe it would only work when you're running, which can be used to introduce some further risk/reward to running where auto-vaulting would be actually bad in some situations. Beyond that, the first point has more to it than what I just outlined in the OP anyway.
 

sanstesy

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The guy directly addressed that in the video. Seems a lot of people are just reading the bulletpoints...

No, auto-vaulting is a bad idea even while only running at full-speed. The staircase example he gave is exactly what is bad about it: instead of having to time the jump precisely to get over the staircase faster you can just press to the right and Mario will do it automatically for you.

Edge-grabbing just doesn't belong in a pure platformer. We already have the spin-in-air move.
 
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Dont agree with number 3 at all. Its what I hate most about mario run. Maybe could tweak so you can drop mario anywhere on screen. But the way it is set up now blows.
 
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No, auto-vaulting is a bad idea even while only running at full-speed. The staircase example he gave is exactly what is bad about it: instead of having to time the jump to get over the staircase faster you can just press to the right and Mario will do it automatically for you.

...only if you made it there at top-speed, which seems would be a more challenging thing to pull off than climbing the staircase normally

Dont agree with number 3 at all. Its what I hate most about mario run. Maybe could tweak so you can drop mario anywhere on screen. But the way it is set up now blows.

It would be nice if you could change the bubble's altitude
 

StoveOven

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Jan 1, 2015
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I mean, there's still interesting platforming to be had regardless of whether you get stuck by a foot tall square or not when walking. In fact, getting stuck on stuff like that is the least interesting type of platforming. And if you watch the video, he suggests that maybe it would only work when you're running, which can be used to introduce some further risk/reward to running where auto-vaulting would be actually bad in some situations. Beyond that, the first point has more to it than what I just outlined in the OP anyway.

If you are getting to the point where small enemies and short walls are both a) not fun to jump over and b) automatically vaulted over, then just take them out of the game. And while the risk/reward thing is an interesting concept, I'm not sure exactly how that would work (and don't just tell me to watch the video because I have and still don't understand that point.) The stuff about a nimble Mario in general is great, but that shouldn't be accomplished by letting the game play itself. If the vault is triggered by a button press that's fine, but it shouldn't happen automatically.
 

nynt9

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Jun 7, 2013
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No, auto-vaulting is a bad idea even while only running at full-speed. The staircase example he gave is exactly what is bad about it: instead of having to time the jump precisely to get over the staircase faster you can just press to the right and Mario will do it automatically for you.

Edge-grabbing just doesn't belong in a pure platformer. We already have the spin-in-air move.

Uh, a lot of platformers have edge grabbing, like Rayman.

If you are getting to the point where small enemies and short walls are both a) not fun to jump over and b) automatically vaulted over, then just take them out of the game. And while the risk/reward thing is an interesting concept, I'm not sure exactly how that would work (and don't just tell me to watch the video because I have and still don't understand that point.) The stuff about a nimble Mario in general is great, but that shouldn't be accomplished by letting the game play itself. If the vault is triggered by a button press that's fine, but it shouldn't happen automatically.

A simple example I can come up with on the spot is that you can position an obstacle right in front of a pit so that if you auto-vault over it (and don't time your jump properly) you'd just run into the pit, whereas without the auto vault you would get stopped by the block. Add some time pressure on the player (like being chased by a fireball or something so that they need to be running in general, and you have a scenario where a player is forced to make a choice.
 
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The stuff about a nimble Mario in general is great, but that shouldn't be accomplished by letting the game play itself.

Mario Run already doesn't play itself though. See how far you get without controlling it

Now Kirby Air Ride is a game that played itself--you could not touch anything and easily make it to the end of most races
 

sanstesy

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...only if you made it there at top-speed, which seems would be a more challenging thing to pull off than climbing the staircase normally

No? If you were speed-running the game you would need to time your jumps perfectly in order to addionally jump over the staircase while running at top-speed. By having the vault move you can just press right while timing way less jumps demanding less precision as a result.

It just simpy dumbs the game down.
 
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No? If you were speed-running the game you would need to time your jumps perfectly in order to addionally jump over the staircase while running at top-speed. By having the vault move you can just press right while timing way less jumps demanding less precision.

You make it sound as if speed-running is something that's easy for anyone to do
 

Pacotez

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Jul 22, 2015
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMi6vharIhw

When I first read the title, I rolled my eyes, but after watching the video I was really convinced by how good these ideas were. I'd also recommend watching the video and following the explanations instead of just reading the list.

1-
A nimbler Mario (auto-vaulting/edge grabbing etc)
2-
More unique characters (playable characters that play differently)
3-
Ditch the life counter (lives only punish players who are already bad, and they're meaningless. The bubble system is a lot better)
4-
Give coins a greater purpose (coins are meaningless normally, but the ability to buy buildings and perhaps unlock progression with them would make them meaningful again)
5-
Feature a world that evolves (how the mushroom kingdom changes and grows with your progression - adds replay value and a sense of progression)

1- New animations would be nice but his idea sucks.
2- Agree
3- Then make it harder so that the life counter doesn't become meaningless. Taking punishment away makes the game meaningless.
4- more value to life counter = more value to coins
5- If it is as light as it was on SMW then thats fine. No 2deep4u cinematic script on muh 2D mario
 

Neoleo2143

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Dec 21, 2015
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Uh, a lot of platformers have edge grabbing, like Rayman.

That's good for them, I'd still rather Mario not be a part of that pack. There's really nothing to Edge grabbing for plaforming sakes. Now if they could somehow bring the roll mechanic from SMR into the 2D games that'd be really cool.
 

StoveOven

Banned
Jan 1, 2015
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Uh, a lot of platformers have edge grabbing, like Rayman.



A simple example I can come up with on the spot is that you can position an obstacle right in front of a pit so that if you auto-vault over it (and don't time your jump properly) you'd just run into the pit, whereas without the auto vault you would get stopped by the block. Add some time pressure on the player (like being chased by a fireball or something so that they need to be running in general, and you have a scenario where a player is forced to make a choice.

I guess that makes sense, but they would probably have to make some changes with the way the camera works. That type of stuff works in Mario Run because you don't have much foresight about what's ahead. In a typical console Mario game you would see that pit and have plenty of time to make that reaction. Also, assuming wall jumping remains in the game, falling into a pit isn't necessarily a death sentence.