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George Lucas quips he sold 'Star Wars' to "white slavers," criticizes tone of TFA

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I don't know about the white slavers comment, but I agree with his sentiment that the movie was super retro and played it safe. I can't fault Lucas's world building in the prequels, the creatures and worlds were fantastic.

I don't know why so many fans spit venom at Lucas's use of green screen. That was always his vision, Lucasfilm was always pushing tech, he was never a man focused on practical effects.
 
the best review of TFA I've read seems appropriate here

That a Star Wars film functions as a recycling machine is hardly out of character, but what began, in Lucas’s first incarnation, as a fantasyland cobbled together from outside sources (Buck Rogers, King Arthur, Akira Kurosawa, Silent Running, Triumph of the Will) now mostly borrows from inside of its own world. There’s still some old Hollywood hokum bleeding through the burgeoning Luke and Han-like friendship between Poe and Finn in The Force Awakens, and there’s generally more original trilogy-grade nostalgia to this installment than in Lucas’s prequels, which, with their enthusiasm for advanced digital effects and realizing their maker’s previously impossible dreams, were more forward focused. I kept waiting for a moment that would bring meaning to this feeling of infinite return, a forceful indicator that there’s philosophical depth to these echoes through generations of trilogies and the viewers who love them. But it never arrived, at least not to my satisfaction. There’s no idea behind the new film’s echoes of the past, outside of making those echoes feel pleasurable—be they Ford’s begrudging summoning of his Solo-era charms, the brassy triumphalism of John Williams’s transporting score, or the perennial joys of robots cavorting with a man in a bear suit. Abrams brings to this film more humanity, and a greater appreciation for his performers, than Lucas managed for all three of the prequels combined. That goes a long way toward making his entertainment click, and furthermore toward making us care. I’m just not sure what we’re caring about, other than the furtherance of Star Wars itself.

For all of its sins, which are very, very, very, very many, The Phantom Menace had a captain, and it was fueled by ideas. Well over a decade after he concluded the original trilogy, Lucas had a vision for what revisiting this universe he had drummed up might look and feel like with the benefit of digital technology, and had a slew of new notions for how to populate and define it. They weren’t particularly good ideas. In fact they were mostly bad, dramatically inert, visually ossified ideas, filled with inexplicable logic, deadening self-seriousness, misunderstandings and mishandlings of what made his own creation compelling, bad writing, worse directing, floundering acting, and endless expository passages about taxes, senates, and genetics. It was like watching a magician listlessly explain what’s awesome about the art of illusion without making magic happen anew. Yet the films emerged from the inside out, and its maker worked passionately to realize them. After abstaining from directing and writing for over two decades, he wrote, directed, produced and financed all three movies. That he became the problem in most estimations—that he shouldn’t have directed, he shouldn’t have written, he should have let other voices and ideas challenge his own—points to a failure in execution, but not in provenance, nor in integrity. That you could blame Lucas for the failings of those movies only proved how much they belonged to him.

By contrast, The Force Awakens belongs to a corporation. It is a product meant to make good on an investment. Disney purchased a property from Lucas, and made a movie related to that property in order to start recouping its outlay. The best way to recoup that outlay was to very carefully and deliberately court and flatter a fan base that has kept the Star Wars brand popular for 38 years and counting; to guarantee that no floppy-eared CGI alien minstrel show will embarrass and shame everyone in sight, that there will be no bogged-down weirdness about midi-chlorians or intergalactic trade agreements, no thespians in bathrobes barely tolerating pantomiming swordplay in front of a green screen (disregarding the fact that those missteps still led to a half-billion box office haul in 1999); to make certain that this new thing is nothing but a sure thing; to make this corporate product at least seem like a public trust—counteracting Lucas’s failure to understand that this is what his creation had evolved into, in effect if not in actuality. There’s no WTF in The Force Awakens because WTF can’t be afforded. It’s smart business, but it’s not an idea—quite the opposite, actually. First comes economics, and then you hired some artists, and then, maybe, you make some art. Any ideas or inspirations come further down the line, in whatever any of the participants might bring to certain aspects of the enterprise. None of this need invalidate what the film winds up being, but it does inform, and to a large degree define it.
 

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
Wait, have people really deluded themselves into thinking that the movie HAD to play it safe?

It's fucking Star Wars, it would have been successful one way or another (to the degree that it is atm is another discussion). This line of thinking that it had to "play it safe" in order to properly succeed is outrageous lol

this is what bothers me, too. making excuses because apparently the PT did so damage they had to played it safe is something I don't buy, this movie was going to make money regardless. They played it too safe and the movie suffered creatively because of it.
 

Alebrije

Member
He sold SW becuase he is getting old and wanted to see how the series moved while he is still alive. Disney as corporate will last for decades or centuries so the series will prevail for a long time.

Obviously he is jealous and wanted to be involved but deep inside must be happy the new movie is good and the fans are happy. This is good not just for Disney but for the SW universe.
 
I enjoyed the movie, I know that it was well created and acted and all that, but it really didn't feel much like Star Wars. It wanted to be Star Wars by making sure there was as much nostalgic material from the OT there as possible, but it just felt like it was wearing Star Wars as a skin.
 

Boke1879

Member
this is what bothers me, too. making excuses because apparently the PT did so damage they had to played it safe is something I don't buy, this movie was going to make money regardless. They played it too safe and the movie suffered creatively because of it.

Eh they made a movie people wanted while setting things up for the future. It's not a 1:! remake of the ANH. It's a callback to the OT no doubt.

That said this movie works because it's familiar and people arguably like this cast better than the original 3. It does what it needs to do and sets up the future films.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
He's not wrong. The problem the prequels had is that no one helped him out. He wrote and directed every single one, unlike the original trilogy. He also was surrounded by yes men who basically didn't question anything he wanted to do or input ideas of their own. It's easy to not see the forest from the trees at that point.

The prequels in concept aren't a bad idea. The overall narrative and character themes presented are good. They're creative. And they make sense. The problem is the execution of those concepts. Lucas is good at ideas but he can't really write. That's why the dialogue is extremely poor. He cast some great actors and they did they best they could, but it's hard to save a poor script. I think with another writer cleaning up the scripts and someone else involved in making creative decisions (along with him) the prequels would have been much better.

They had a lot of creative ideas. From what has gone around on the Internet my understanding is that Lucas asked around for others writers and directors but no one wanted to help him bring his vision of the prequels to life. Probably due to the pressure of Star Wars being this huge "important" franchise. It's a shame that no one helped him out, because I think that's really all he needed.

Look at the Clone Wars TV series. Same exact thing. Lucas came up with a lot of concepts for that show, was heavily involved in the creative decisions all through the end. But he had a talented team of writers working on the scripts and Dave Filoni leading the thrust of the project. And the series turned out great. I think this is what Lucas needed on the Prequels.

I sort of wonder why he didn't consider retaining ownership of the property but allowing Disney to make and profit off of his ideas. From what we know of him, that seems like it would have been the best solution. I also imagine that Disney would have jumped at that in a heartbeat also.
Another huge problem is that the villains shuffled every movie. We went from maul to dooku to grievous.
 
I mean, yes, TFA borrows quite a bit from ANH story-wise, but "new planets" and "new ships" are the barometer for an original work? Did they revisit any locale from the OT in TFA? Compared to Qui-Gon and crew happening to land on Tatooine when they meet Anakin.

Plus the prequel trilogy is filled with obnoxious symmetry to the OT. TPM in some respects is just as much of a "remake" of ANH as TFA is.
 

Soul_Pie

Member
The white slavers thing is just bizarre, but I think he realised halfway through his train of thought that it was silly. If people watch the whole video though he actually makes some pretty interesting comments on many topics, albeit he does sound somewhat bitter on occasions.

In any case if he was worried about the direction it might take then why didn't he ensure that the movies were put in the hands of a talented, creative director. Furthermore why did he sell it to Disney who tend to make risk averse, formulaic films these days. I mean Abrams is good at what he does which is to take a strong concept into palatable, standard hollywood fare. Ultimately Lucas has to hold himself to account in terms of not actually dictating the terms of the handover.

I absolutely agree with his criticism as to its originality, even though it's a good film, it is a complete pastiche and is overly reliant on nostalgia. I could totally understand where he was coming from especially as it probably feels like his own work is being ripped off to rapturous applause. I know his recent stuff hasn't been great but his early films were most definitely original and extremely well made on a number of levels. Far be it for me to defend the guy but you can't question the fact that he is ambitious and creative and that was always a priority for him whereas it clearly isn't in episode VII which is why in some ways it's probably not in the spirit of the original vision of star wars.
 

Ishida

Banned
Fixed. :)

Also I am hoping by next month we can move on to the new year with people accepting that the new Star Wars has been a critical success and a fun movie for fans. It is in far better hands now.

People are still bitching about the prequels 10 years later, so I guess you are in for one hell of a ride if you expect this to end soon.
 

Jharp

Member
Has Lucas ever given a genuine response to the hate the prequels get? I mean, at this point they probably have their fans between all the kids that grew up with them and the tv show and loved all of it.

And did he never have a problem with the stuff that was done in the expanded universe/Legacy? I mean, if he's so salty about TFA's direction, what about that shit?
 
People are still bitching about the prequels 10 years later, so I guess you are in for one hell of a ride if you expect this to end soon.

If the second and third film end up bringing new ideas and ambition to the franchise than these particular criticisms will definitely vanish. If they don't, than these criticisms will multiply tenfold (rightfully so).
 

Sorcerer

Member
"They wanted to do a retro movie. I don't like that," the franchise's creator told Charlie Rose.

But George "It's like poetry. It rhymes."
 

Speevy

Banned
I can make you all agree on one thing.

I hated The Phantom Menace. It came out when I was still in high school, and I hated it.

I was reasonably sure anything that followed The Phantom Menace would still probably stink up the joint, even if it were better by comparison.

Even if I had hated The Force Awakens (which I didn't, I actually loved it), I could still make a reasonable conclusion that they might make a sequel that completely alleviates the problems the first one had.

This is because it has good actors, directors, and writers working on it.
 

gdt

Member
I'm loving the salt here.

George just doesn't have it in him anymore. He can't do fun.


That's ok, and it was right of him to move on and hand the franchise to better caretakers.

TFA is fun and hell with amazing characters and charm. A slam dunk, whether it's familiar or not.
 
How is The Force Awakens retro?

The prequel trilogy feels more retro to me because it was the early 2000s when many companies had no fucking idea how to believably implement CG in their films.

Retro does not imply simply old looking, old things aren't inherently retro. Retro implies a new thing that is done in a style to emulate something old. i.e. NES Mega Man is not retro, Shovel Knight is retro.

In regards to TFA, in plot structure it is very reminiscent of the ANH in structure and look, so in a way it is a bit retro. ANH is also in a way retro as it is inspired by early space opera such as Flash Gordon that had fallen mostly out of vogue. Though in both cases I wouldn't really argue to strongly for them being retro films.
 

I'm not seeing the sexual chemistry between Kylo and Rey that this guys sees.

I agree with his take on Finn though:

The closest The Force Awakens comes to a wild card is the character of Finn, the Storm Trooper with a conscience, a character without predecessor that, perhaps not coincidentally, thrums the film to life. The spirit of friendship that is the franchise’s emotional legacy gets pressurized in Finn, whose puppy-esque eagerness to attach to those he meets is well served by Boyega’s eagerness to please. He sells a man-crush on Poe and romantic flutterings with Rey with improbable but convenient speed, flaunting appealing if unsubtle facial work that invites us to feel his emotional highs and lows rather than coolly observe them. (Compare Boyega’s Finn to the telegraphed and yet still remote oscillations of Hayden Christiansen’s Anakin Skywalker in the prequels, a character that ought to have traced a Shakespearean arc but never rose above a flatline.) He bumbles into a Tie Fighter getaway with Poe, crash-lands into Rey’s desert town, earns side-eyes from Han and Chewie, and faces down Kylo Ren using Luke Skywalker’s lightsaber. That Boyega does all of this ingratiatingly, testing but never exhausting our patience, is some kind of feat. His energy, particularly as it’s channeled toward connecting with his co-stars, distinguishes the film.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
So basically Lucas was against the idea of TFA being an ANH retread.

I can appreciate that.
Yeah even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that.

And aside from some clear homages in ROTS I don't think you can criticize the prequels for retreading the original movies, for better and for ill.

If Ep VIII turns into some ripoff of TESB, I guess it'll be Star Trek fans' turn to look at the Wars fans and say, "we told you they didn't have an original bone in their body."
 

Fj0823

Member
People are still bitching about the prequels 10 years later, so I guess you are in for one hell of a ride if you expect this to end soon.
True.

TFA is in a lose/lose long term situation if VIII and XI are good too

If VIII-IX go full creativity with new ships, planets and story beats while not suffering from the prequels problems then TFA will forever be the "ripoff" one

the one fans will tell you to "Skip as you already watched IV, watch a review or an edit to get to know the characters"

If VIII-IX are as rehashy or even "age of ultrony" then there's no hell as hot as the shitstorm that would create within this fanbase, the "ripoff saga" and "Jar Jar Abrams" memes will be nonstop

Kinda pisses me off to think about, as I really like TFA despite it's shitty stuff, just like I liked the prequels
 
Let's be real, the backlash against the Force Awakens would be much greater if the prequels weren't so bad. It's a good movie but it has some pretty glaring flaws that people are overlooking because it's not terrible.
 

Speevy

Banned
What if the movie had been panned by critics on top of MAJOR SPOILER
killing Han Solo?

That would be like killing Commander Data or something.
 
Let's be real, the backlash against the Force Awakens would be much greater if the prequels weren't so bad. It's a good movie but it has some pretty glaring flaws that people are overlooking because it's not terrible.

If "the prequels weren't so bad", TFA as we know it would not exist to begin with. Episode VII would be a totally different film.
 

aliengmr

Member
Its kind of funny that the weapon against TFA is that, as a franchise film, it tried to stay close to said franchise, and suddenly, despite the bad acting and incoherent story at least the PT was original.

Well I'll take safe retread with great characters over original stories with forgettable characters and horrendous dialog.

Cynical Disney marketing strikes again I guess.
 
And that tells you all you need to know about why Lucas isn't involved. His idea of making a big difference is new planets and spaceships. Also, reusing the Death Star in Jedi says hello.
Yeah but that was an incomplete yet still fully operational Death Star. Totally different.
 
What kind of new elements in the PT I'm missing right now?

I remember only badly written nonsense that doesn't even make sense in context of the OT. The Jedis are forgotten after not even 20 years, technology declined for some reason, Leia's memories about her mother, and even the implied age gap between Anakin and Obi doesn't match anymore.

It's like he didn't even respect his own works.
 

Speevy

Banned
I loved how different Oscar Isaac looks in the film compared to any other role I've seen him in.

I thought that was a really unsafe choice, honestly.
 

Pikelet

Member
Tend to agree with George here that TFA stuck a little too close to the old films in parts.

However, the best parts about TFA was all the stuff that was original - especially the new characters.

The prequel trilogy perhaps introduced more original concepts and characters, the problem was that they were all dogshit.
 

Speevy

Banned
If "the prequels weren't so bad", TFA as we know it would not exist to begin with. Episode VII would be a totally different film.

This isn't like WCW getting bought by the WWE. Lucasfilm wasn't forced into bankruptcy by the shittiness of the prequels.
 

Fj0823

Member
What kind of new elements in the PT I'm missing right now?

I remember only badly written nonsense that doesn't even make sense in context of the OT. The Jedis are forgotten after not even 20 years, technology declined for some reason, Leia's memories about her mother, and even the implied age gap between Anakin and Obi doesn't match anymore.

It's like he didn't even respect his own works.

Jedis were re-forgotten in 30 years, force visions "images and feelings", "implied" Never stated just like Obi-Wan implied a LOT of bullshit.
 

Arkeband

Banned
He's kind of right in that the movie should have been less reliant on the OT. Lucas might have lost his touch as time went on, but to his credit, every movie did bring a completely new and fresh plot with new locations.

7 was very much A New Hope, it was as much of a reboot as it was a new entry. I don't know if it would have been as good if it ditched it's crutch of mirroring Episode 4.
 

Ishida

Banned
What kind of new elements in the PT I'm missing right now?

I remember only badly written nonsense that doesn't even make sense in context of the OT. The Jedis are forgotten after not even 20 years, technology declined for some reason, Leia's memories about her mother, and even the implied age gap between Anakin and Obi doesn't match anymore.

It's like he didn't even respect his own works.

Funny that you complain about this since Luke Skywalker has become a myth by the time of TFA.

The Jedi were "forgotten" because the Empire did their damn best to erase any record and actively hunted down any remains. And even then, the Jedi are not really "forgotten" in the OT.
 
Hell Phantom Menace is more memorable than this star wars, even though one movie is obviously better than another. That's what happens you play it so safe, and especially since they tried to go retro. Those days are gone.
 

mcfrank

Member
Its kind of funny that the weapon against TFA is that, as a franchise film, it tried to stay close to said franchise, and suddenly, despite the bad acting and incoherent story at least the PT was original.

Well I'll take safe retread with great characters over original stories with forgettable characters and horrendous dialog.

Cynical Disney marketing strikes again I guess.

Yeah, this weird rewriting of history to try to make the prequels in to "original" or "innovative" movies is bizarre.

Funny that you complain about this since Luke Skywalker has become a myth by the time of TFA.

The Jedi were "forgotten" because the Empire did their damn best to erase any record and actively hunted down any remains. And even then, the Jedi are not really "forgotten" in the OT.

Become a myth to a hermit girl who lives on a garbage filled salvage planet.

He's kind of right in that the movie should have been less reliant on the OT. Lucas might have lost his touch as time went on, but to his credit, every movie did bring a completely new and fresh plot with new locations.

7 was very much A New Hope, it was as much of a reboot as it was a new entry. I don't know if it would have been as good if it ditched it's crutch of mirroring Episode 4.

New locations... like tatooine?
 
True.

TFA is in a lose/lose long term situation if VIII and XI are good too

If VIII-IX go full creativity with new ships, planets and story beats while not suffering from the prequels problems then TFA will forever be the "ripoff" one


the one fans will tell you to "Skip as you already watched IV, watch a review or an edit to get to know the characters"

If VIII-IX are as rehashy or even "age of ultrony" then there's no hell as hot as the shitstorm that would create within this fanbase, the "ripoff saga" and "Jar Jar Abrams" memes will be nonstop

Kinda pisses me off to think about, as I really like TFA despite it's shitty stuff, just like I liked the prequels
I disagree, if Ep 8 & 9 have some more ambition and turn out good then TFA will be looked back upon fondly as the one that reinvigorated the franchise, giving us a solid remix of the OT before things headed in a new direction.
 
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