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Germany: Merkel disgust at New Year gang assaults

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Kinyou

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Sep 12, 2009
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Apparently they also evaluated the situation wrong. Right after the night they actually called the events "relaxed"

Die Kölner Polizeispitze gestand ein, am Neujahrsmorgen falsch über die Ereignisse der Nacht berichtet zu haben. In einer Erklärung hatte sie die Lage zunächst als recht entspannt beschrieben und sich selbst gelobt. Kritik am Einsatz wies sie allerdings zurück. "Wir waren nicht überfordert", sagte Polizeipräsident Wolfgang Albers. Das ganze Ausmaß der Vorfälle sei erst später klar geworden.
http://www.dw.com/de/kölner-polizeichef-albers-lehnt-rücktritt-ab/a-18962888

Even if more police had been available, I think it's questionable if they would have called reinforcements.
 

ClosingADoor

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No one was saying that theft or assault have to be explained. Given the strong differences in social norms however, as evident e.g. from Oktoberfest, it is obviously necessary to explain local customs and social norms to visitors. People may often travel to such events with an inaccurate idea on how things work.

It is currently not clear at all how this could spiral out of control. From what I recall a police report from 1/1/16 made no mention of anything extraordinary.
It just seems strange to me to bring up social norms when the topic at hand deals with sexual assault, theft and even rape. All things that do not need explaining why they are unacceptable and horrible. This has nothing to do with local customs or inaccurate ideas of visitors.

For the getting out of control part, I was more referring to what I read about the situation in this area in Cologne in general. It seems that some people arrested were known to police already from earlier reports and that the area has had its problems with assaults and theft on a smaller scale. If those things are not handled, these people will grow bolder and think they can get away with anything, as we are seeing now with the situation in New Years Eve.
 

Kinokou

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Jan 29, 2013
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While this is a tragic event to go trough, the courage of all these women in filing charges whether for theft or harassment to assault is impressive. All to often you will hear about people who didn't either from friends or from officials talking about the dark figures of crime.
I applaud them and hope this will be a continuing trend where serious harassment no longer will be ignored by the victim or by the authorities.
 

YourMaster

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While this is a tragic event to go trough, the courage of all these women in filing charges whether for theft or harassment to assault is impressive. All to often you will hear about people who didn't either from friends or from officials talking about the dark figures of crime.
I applaud them and hope this will be a continuing trend where serious harassment no longer will be ignored by the victim or by the authorities.
We don't know how many victims there were in this case, just how many reports.
We also heard some of the early victims report they weren't being taken seriously by the police and we've had the mayor insinuate that the victims would have been left alone if only they had stayed at an arms length of strange men.
 

warthog

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Dec 17, 2004
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Disgusting. These lowlife pieces of shit should serve a long time in prison and I hope acts like this will be answered by rubber bullets or other painful non lethal weapons in the future.
That won't solve the problem which probably has much deeper roots and should be resolved by education and far better integration, but that's how you have to treat the filth that took part of this right now.
 
Feb 28, 2009
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I think that's being dismissive of what lead to it, I'm not downplaying it by simply not showing outrage in a public forum, if that's how it appears, well then that's my fault for not communicating well. There are 'reasons' just not sound ones.
There are reasons for every crime. Does that mean those criminals shouldn't be held responsible? Should a sociopathic serial killer get off because he legitimately can't understand human empathy? What about a school shooter that was bullied to the point of losing it?

Regardless of the circumstances, we have to assume people have some degree of free will and can't excuse actions like these.
 

Guevara

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I guess the first casualty will be women's ability to travel freely anywhere within their countries without fear of being assaulted/harassed.
 

Hey Dude

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Get used to it, euros. Crime ridden inner cities are your future now. Join the party.

Maybe now youll stop acting holier than thou when shitting on whites in america for bailing the fuck out to the suburbs.
 

Hycran

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Get used to it, euros. Crime ridden inner cities are your future now. Join the party.

Maybe now youll stop acting holier than thou when shitting on whites in america for bailing the fuck out to the suburbs.
This is... quite the post. I hope you enjoyed your short time posting on neogaf.

As for the assaults and things, there are often periods of strife and "bloodletting" when new groups of people and cultures come together. Regardless of who perpetrated these crimes, there are always going to be growing pains, especially in such a dramatic human migration events. Obviously these actions aren't right and the assailants will be prosecuted when discovered. Germany has been doing a good job so far of organizing things in order to avoid conflict, so hopefully they can keep it up.
 

E92 M3

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Get used to it, euros. Crime ridden inner cities are your future now. Join the party.

Maybe now youll stop acting holier than thou when shitting on whites in america for bailing the fuck out to the suburbs.
What do you mean shitting on whites? What's wrong with moving to the suburbs?
 

SilentRob

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Eyewitness account. Audio in German, English subtitles. My German isn't perfect, but from what I could understand the subtitles are accurate.

Sound really horrible. Police was completely outnumbered. He says veteran police officers told him it was like a civil war zone.
Nice to see you quoting a guy who states that "the people we welcomed three months ago..." were responsible for this, without any evidence in that regard and who already has at least one video from three months ago that goes on and on about how the media is lying to us and how refugees are probably going to end the western civilization. Cool.

Daily note that there is absolutely no evidence that this has anything to do with refugees. There is one account that says a cop had confirmed behind the scenes that several detained people were refugees, but to this day I have found no confirmed source for this. Only in the last few days the police have officially confirmed that seven suspects have been identified. Indeed, they are suspecting organised crime to be involved, which would go directly counter to the argument that refugees are involved, except if we want to think that refugees who arrived here 2 months ago have already established an organised gang structure.

Here is some context: The main station in cologne has been home to a few groups who are part of the organized crime in the city who use the tourist spot (it's directly in front of the Kölner Dom, the main tourist spot of the city) for their criminal activity. This has been going on for years and has nothing to do with refugees or anything of the like. There are a LOT of arabian- or african-looking germans, especially in Nordrhein-Westfalen and to go from "They looked arabic!" to "The were syrian refugees" is completely and utterly insane.

Responses in this thread sound like the stuff I only hear from right-wing extremists like the AFD and NPD here in germany. Something the thread opener seems to ignore: Just yesterday Angela Merkel also called the german people to be "open and respecful" to strangers at all times (http://www.donaukurier.de/nachrichten/topnews/Deutschland-Bolivien-Regierung-Fluechtlinge-Kirchen-Hilfsorganisationen-Merkel-ruft-zu-Respekt-und-Offenheit-gegenueber-Fremden-auf;art154776,3165377).

Merkel does not link these attacks to refugees, nor does her party or any other party apart from the two right-wing parties mentioned above and there is no evidence suggesting it apart from "well, I dunno, I guess they looked arabic?"

The answer to these events have been very objective and responsible by most politicians and main stream media here in germany. I wished that was the case here, too. But I guess it's easier to paint a country in flames.
 

YourMaster

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Eyewitness account. Audio in German, English subtitles. My German isn't perfect, but from what I could understand the subtitles are accurate.

Sound really horrible. Police was completely outnumbered. He says veteran police officers told him it was like a civil war zone.
yes, and again confirming the problems the police were having/causing. First releasing people from the transports/jails to load new people in who then turn on the police again, and then finally giving up and 'waiting' for 90 minutes for a solution while rioters jumped on the heads of people knocked to the ground.
When you have riot police they have to do charges, they need to be trained to face a larger group of rioters. Sweep the square first to protect the citizens, jailtime and bookings should be of secondary importance.
 

faridmon

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Get used to it, euros. Crime ridden inner cities are your future now. Join the party.

Maybe now youll stop acting holier than thou when shitting on whites in america for bailing the fuck out to the suburbs.
WTF at this comment?

There is no reasonable way to reply to this stupidity at all.
 

nilbog21

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Jan 8, 2009
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"What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women."

man, wtf is going on
 
Feb 22, 2009
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"What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women."

man, wtf is going on
Other people have pointed out that their behaviour is not really different to the Tahrir Square demonstrations. Possibly this is just what they see as acceptable behaviour at any open air gathering.
 

Musician

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Hasn't this been happening in Sweden for years now? From time to time I read on the newspaper this sort of stories coming from Sweden and the issues they face with the refugees.
Not really. Or not at all actually. We have attacks on ambulances, fire fighters and police in certain areas as well as a growing number of "assault rapes" but no single incidence like this.
 

Pusherman

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Get used to it, euros. Crime ridden inner cities are your future now. Join the party.

Maybe now youll stop acting holier than thou when shitting on whites in america for bailing the fuck out to the suburbs.
hey dude, I think you mistakenly logged in on Neogaf when you meant to log in on Stormfront. Jesus Christ.
 

Nivash

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why did they accept so many single men in their selection process?
Because single men fleeing a war zone has the same human rights in regards to asylum as married men, single women and yes, even 5-year old girls who love unicorns. There's no "selection". You arrive as a refugee fleeing war and persecution, you have a right to sanctuary. Simple as that.

Attacks on ambulances too? I remember during the 2005 Paris riots that happened as well but it was all chaos back then.
It's rare but it happens. Has something to do with disenfranchised young immigrants in the suburbs joining gangs and protecting their turf from the perceived representatives of authority. It's despicable, moronic and, thankfully, not at all representative of refugees or immigrants overall. Most of them are Swedes anyway, they're usually second generation immigrants.
 

ClosingADoor

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Here is some context: The main station in cologne has been home to a few groups who are part of the organized crime in the city who use the tourist spot (it's directly in front of the Kölner Dom, the main tourist spot of the city) for their criminal activity. This has been going on for years and has nothing to do with refugees or anything of the like. There are a LOT of arabian- or african-looking germans, especially in Nordrhein-Westfalen and to go from "They looked arabic!" to "The were syrian refugees" is completely and utterly insane.
That fact that crime has been going on for years there by the same groups is not really comforting. Why hasn't the police done anything about that before it got worse and worse? You can't expect those troubles to just go away.

Gangs of primarily young Northern African men at the moment have been a problem for some time now in European cities and time and again these people are being let go or the crime just seems to be ignored. This is unacceptable and one of the primary reasons the far right is on the rise, because people feel unsafe and time and again we read about these groups doing crimes in the media without a clear strategy to deal with it.

Attacks on ambulances too? I remember during the 2005 Paris riots that happened as well but it was all chaos back then.
Attacks on ambulance personal, police and fire fighters have happened over here in Holland for some time. I don't know the groups involved in that - and I'm sure there are plenty of locals doing terrible things like an assault during a meeting about a refugee center last month -, but there seems to be more violence towards public servants over the years and lately more reports about assaults on railroad personal for example. Terrible stuff all around.

single men are greater risk factor than whole families, women and children.

reason being why Canada chose to send single men at the back of the line
Canada and the US have the benefit of an ocean, so they get to pick the refugees they allow in with manageable numbers. In Europe most walk in through Turkey, then Greece, Balkans, and towards Germany and Sweden. The people making that trip are mostly young men.
 

gutter_trash

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Because single men fleeing a war zone has the same human rights in regards to asylum as married men, single women and yes, even 5-year old girls who love unicorns. There's no "selection". You arrive as a refugee fleeing war and persecution, you have a right to sanctuary. Simple as that.
single men are greater risk factor than whole families, women and children.

reason being why Canada chose to send single men at the back of the line
 

Forsete

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Hasn't this been happening in Sweden for years now? From time to time I read on the newspaper this sort of stories coming from Sweden and the issues they face with the refugees.
Not on this scale. There are incidents however, just this new years eve actually.

In Kalmar, near and around Larmtorget, several women reported that they had been molested by groups of young men on New Year's night. Molestation should have taken place on the square, on a dance floor and a staircase.
- It has affected a number of people and it felt like it was a little too much, says Gunnar Norgren, internal officers of the police in Kalmar.
Have there been similar approach to the various molestations?
- Yes, basically the same. What happened out on Larmtorget was that it was a bunch of guys, three to six, and some girls, then, allegedly, was surrounded by guys who then began to grope them.
http://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/flera-kvinnor-ofredade-under-nyarsnatten/

New years eve was messy in various areas. Police officers were attacked by stolen rockets and firecrackers in a suburb of Växjö I heard, they had to call in reinforcements from other cities.
 

Nivash

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single men are greater risk factor than whole families, women and children.

reason being why Canada chose to send single men at the back of the line
Canada has the luxuary of being able to pick and choose thanks to the Atlantic. Europe doesn't, once they're standing at your doorstep they have a right to sanctuary.
 

E92 M3

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Canada has the luxuary of being able to pick and choose thanks to the Atlantic. Europe doesn't, once they're standing at your doorstep they have a right to sanctuary.
Actually, some countries just built barricades. Germany could have been more stringent as well. Accepting families, women and children is a lot less riskier than just taking in single men.
 

Moonstar

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Sep 19, 2015
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Btw, 30.000 refugees arrived in Germany in the last 10 days. It's not stopping.

I really wonder how many we will able to take in, we can't take in another million.
 

Morphis

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Nice to see you quoting a guy who states that "the people we welcomed three months ago..." were responsible for this, without any evidence in that regard and who already has at least one video from three months ago that goes on and on about how the media is lying to us and how refugees are probably going to end the western civilization. Cool.

Daily note that there is absolutely no evidence that this has anything to do with refugees. There is one account that says a cop had confirmed behind the scenes that several detained people were refugees, but to this day I have found no confirmed source for this. Only in the last few days the police have officially confirmed that seven suspects have been identified. Indeed, they are suspecting organised crime to be involved, which would go directly counter to the argument that refugees are involved, except if we want to think that refugees who arrived here 2 months ago have already established an organised gang structure.

Here is some context: The main station in cologne has been home to a few groups who are part of the organized crime in the city who use the tourist spot (it's directly in front of the Kölner Dom, the main tourist spot of the city) for their criminal activity. This has been going on for years and has nothing to do with refugees or anything of the like. There are a LOT of arabian- or african-looking germans, especially in Nordrhein-Westfalen and to go from "They looked arabic!" to "The were syrian refugees" is completely and utterly insane.

Responses in this thread sound like the stuff I only hear from right-wing extremists like the AFD and NPD here in germany. Something the thread opener seems to ignore: Just yesterday Angela Merkel also called the german people to be "open and respecful" to strangers at all times (http://www.donaukurier.de/nachrichten/topnews/Deutschland-Bolivien-Regierung-Fluechtlinge-Kirchen-Hilfsorganisationen-Merkel-ruft-zu-Respekt-und-Offenheit-gegenueber-Fremden-auf;art154776,3165377).

Merkel does not link these attacks to refugees, nor does her party or any other party apart from the two right-wing parties mentioned above and there is no evidence suggesting it apart from "well, I dunno, I guess they looked arabic?"

The answer to these events have been very objective and responsible by most politicians and main stream media here in germany. I wished that was the case here, too. But I guess it's easier to paint a country in flames.
I don't care whether these were refugees or not. You are right that there is no evidence that they were. There's also no evidence that they were not. Let's not jump to conclusions either way and wait till there's more info. Apparently some of the perpetrators were caught, I hope we will get more details soon.

This is someone who has seen the events. That was my point. It's been horrible for those involved, police included.
 

gutter_trash

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I don't care whether these were refugees or not. You are right that there is no evidence that they were. There's also no evidence that they were not. Let's not jump to conclusions either way and wait till there's more info. Apparently some of the perpetrators were caught, I hope we will get more details soon.

This is someone who has seen the events. That was my point. It's been horrible for those involved, police included.
but the one trait that all perps have in common is that they were are all men
 

Nivash

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Actually, some countries just built barricades. Germany could have been more stringent as well. Accepting families, women and children is a lot less riskier than just taking in single men.
So what do you do with the single men? Send them back to Syria or whatever other war zone they ran from? It's easy to get away with picking the people you want from a refugee camp where they're already safe, it's not even legal to do the same to people at your border who don't even have a roof above their heads. If someone applies for asylum you have a responsibility to examine their claim and care for them in the meantime. You can't deny them out of hand and you sure as hell can't deny them based solely on gender and marital status, doing either is a severe breach of human rights.
 

E92 M3

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So what do you do with the single men? Send them back to Syria or whatever other war zone they ran from? It's easy to get away with picking the people you want from a refugee camp where they're already safe, it's not even legal to do the same to people at your border who don't even have a roof above their heads. If someone applies for asylum you have a responsibility to examine their claim and care for them in the meantime. You can't deny them out of hand and you sure as hell can't deny them based solely on gender and marital status, doing either is a severe breach of human rights.
It should just be done proportionally for the sake of the society they are integrating into.
 

gutter_trash

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So what do you do with the single men? Send them back to Syria or whatever other war zone they ran from? It's easy to get away with picking the people you want from a refugee camp where they're already safe, it's not even legal to do the same to people at your border who don't even have a roof above their heads. If someone applies for asylum you have a responsibility to examine their claim and care for them in the meantime. You can't deny them out of hand and you sure as hell can't deny them based solely on gender and marital status, doing either is a severe breach of human rights.
if they disproportionately outnumber women? yes
 

params7

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Canada has the luxuary of being able to pick and choose thanks to the Atlantic. Europe doesn't, once they're standing at your doorstep they have a right to sanctuary.
And will Euro be funding the fight against the human trafficking business this will promote alongside giving refuge to millions more who will show up?
 

entremet

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Get used to it, euros. Crime ridden inner cities are your future now. Join the party.

Maybe now youll stop acting holier than thou when shitting on whites in america for bailing the fuck out to the suburbs.
Whites are coming back, though.

You're talking about the 70s and 80s.
 

funkypie

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Given how pathetic the eu is. Those that have been caught will not be deported and most likely will avoid jail to.
 

Kinyou

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Even assuming that refugees were not involved at all, it reveals a big problem Germany has with integrating foreigners.
 

Nivash

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It should just be done proportionally for the sake of the society they are integrating into.
They're here and have the right to asylum because it's a human right. Article 14. "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution." You can't just handwave that.

if they disproportionately outnumber women? yes
See above. And again, and what do you suppose we do to them? Deport them to Syria just because they're of the wrong sex?

And will Euro be funding the fight against the human trafficking business this will promote alongside giving refuge to millions more who will show up?
I frankly don't see what this has to do with the right to asylum but for the record I'm in favor of the EU, in cooperation with other world and regional powers, creating a quota system that would safely relocate refugees from the crowded camps near the war zones and bring them to safety in a sustainable manner. That way we could avoid lopsided distributions like we have in Germany and the mad dash to the few, open countries that honor the right to asylum that leaves people drowning in the Mediterranean.

Like the UN quota system was supposed to do, expect actually dimensioned to make a difference.
 

Valhelm

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Because single men fleeing a war zone has the same human rights in regards to asylum as married men, single women and yes, even 5-year old girls who love unicorns. There's no "selection". You arrive as a refugee fleeing war and persecution, you have a right to sanctuary. Simple as that.
I have to disagree. Some migrants are at a higher risk than others, and I think that preferential treatment -- for queer people, ethnic and religious minorities, children, or young women -- is acceptable.
 

E92 M3

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They're here and have the right to asylum because it's a human right. Article 14. "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution." You can't just handwave that.



See above. And again, and what do you suppose we do to them? Deport them to Syria just because they're of the wrong sex?



I frankly don't see what this has to do with the right to asylum but for the record I'm in favor of the EU, in cooperation with other world and regional powers, creating a quota system that would safely relocate refugees from the crowded camps near the war zones and bring them to safety in a sustainable manner. That way we could avoid lopsided distributions like we have in Germany and the mad dash to the few, open countries that honor the right to asylum that leaves people drowning in the Mediterranean.

Like the UN quota system was supposed to do, expect actually dimensioned to make a difference.
Sure they have the right, but doesn't mean they can't wait longer to get accepted.
 

Nivash

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I have to disagree. Some migrants are at a higher risk than others, and I think that preferential treatment -- for queer people, ethnic and religious minorities, children, or young women -- is acceptable.
It's a universal right. It doesn't matter if some other groups are even more vulnerable because you're required to grant sanctuary to all people that fulfill the criteria for qualifying as a refugee. So queer people, ethnic and religous minorities, children or young women and young men who are refugees all have a right to sanctuary.

Sure they have the right, but doesn't mean they can't wait longer to get accepted.
And once they present themselves at your border you have to care for them during the process application time even if you decide to process other applications before them. The end result is still the same: you need to let them in.
 

Iorv3th

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And once they present themselves at your border you have to care for them during the process application time even if you decide to process other applications before them. The end result is still the same: you need to let them in.
I believe The Donald would disagree with you.
 

E92 M3

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It's a universal right. It doesn't matter if some other groups are even more vulnerable because you're required to grant sanctuary to all people that fulfill the criteria for qualifying as a refugee. So queer people, ethnic and religous minorities, children or young women and young men who are refugees all have a right to sanctuary.



And once they present themselves at your border you have to care for them during the process application time even if you decide to process other applications before them. The end result is still the same: you need to let them in.
Or just put up a gate and make it more selective. Setup a special area for waiting refugees. It's not a solution to just accept a million refugees and cross your fingers hoping for the best.
 

Gemüsepizza

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I have to disagree. Some migrants are at a higher risk than others, and I think that preferential treatment -- for queer people, ethnic and religious minorities, children, or young women -- is acceptable.
Young men ARE at high risk. They are the ones who get targeted first by the enemy, they are the ones who get forced to fight. Just look at the drone policy of the USA. They consider every male above 15 years a hostile combatant in a target zone for their drone strikes.
 

ClosingADoor

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I frankly don't see what this has to do with the right to asylum but for the record I'm in favor of the EU, in cooperation with other world and regional powers, creating a quota system that would safely relocate refugees from the crowded camps near the war zones and bring them to safety in a sustainable manner. That way we could avoid lopsided distributions like we have in Germany and the mad dash to the few, open countries that honor the right to asylum that leaves people drowning in the Mediterranean.

Like the UN quota system was supposed to do, expect actually dimensioned to make a difference.
In order to do this, the borders need to be closed, otherwise people will just walk here like now and we need to accept them anyway.

Gemüsepizza;191434886 said:
Young men ARE at high risk. They are the ones who get targeted first by the enemy, they are the ones who get forced to fight. Just look at the drone policy of the USA. They consider every male above 15 years a hostile combatant in a target zone for their drone strikes.
I think the LGBT people being pushed from buildings are a little higher risk, or the women being raped there.

Syrian men will be drafted into the army, that is true. And they flee to countries in the region, which we should fund and then bring over people safely in numbers we can manage.
 
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