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[Crashdown]

I like how this discussion started because of a game in which your supposed super power is time farting

Hashtag 2017 Political Discourse.

 

[Human Trashcan]

Like waypoint is very specifically an activist site.

It isn't though? I'm not sure what you understand activism to mean but that's an awfully broad definition if it includes waypoint. I'm not saying that to denigrate them, I love what they do and how they do it, mostly. But it is not even remotely an activist site or platform just because they talk about, y'know, issues, as they intersect with gaming.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I like how this discussion started because of a game in which your supposed super power is ripping the fabric of time by farting

I hate these purity tests, especially over a south park game.

"They didn't say enough, they didn't say X about X'. Like oh my god no wonder the left eats itself.

 

[Strax]

After 6 hours playing the two most "political" takes the South Park game has are
1. Cops often treat black people unfairly and misuse their power
2. Only dumb people people treat you based on your gender, race, looks etc

Maybe it swings hard the other way later on.

 

[peaceland]

Don't watch live sports, kids, unless you wanna see a man with his foot tiwisted in the wrong direction, hanging limp.

That was so fucking awful.

 

[Human Trashcan]

I hate these purity tests, especially over a south park game.

"They didn't say enough, they didn't say X about X'. Like oh my god no wonder the left eats itself.

No one's out here calling for blood, we're just talking. Why are you always the first one to bring up purity tests and how we're all cannibals whenever this kind of criticism comes up? Chill.

Knew I shouldn't have clicked that damn "view post" button

 

[BTA]

I got from the impression that they were thoroughly on the 'fuck gamergate' side

Like, what more do you want? What more do you think they needed to say? A constant barrage of 'by the way we're going to devote 15 minutes about how shitty gamergate is' each week definitely wasn't the answer.

Saying “fuck gamergate” at all was definitely the answer. Honestly, talking about how much it fucking sucked weekly would have been admirable.

Like I legitimately don’t know how aware of this you are but there were far too many people in GB’s audience who treated anything slightly progressive said/done by GB as something that Patrick did and that Jeff was secretly pissed about it. Plenty of shitty people were (and still sorta are) completely subscribed to the belief that these folks they listened/watched the content of daily 100% agreed with them just because they never outright said they didn’t, even if they never indicated they agreed.

And like, that’s not completely a failure on the site’s part but come on, don’t let that perpetuate. That’s not even touching how much the actual people being attacked by GG desperately and actively wanted a big site or company to actually say something.

 

[imBask]

No one's out here calling for blood, we're just talking. Why are you always the first one to bring up purity tests and how we're all cannibals whenever this kind of criticism comes up? Chill.

Knew I shouldn't have clicked that damn "view post" button

I mean like 10 posts behind some dude pretty much called Dan on the fence for not mentioning gamergate in his south park review

 

[pizzacat]

Don't watch live sports, kids, unless you wanna see a man with his foot tiwisted in the wrong direction, hanging limp.

not only that but derrick rose looking like hes in more pain than hayward

 

[Death Metalist]

I hate these purity tests, especially over a south park game.

"They didn't say enough, they didn't say X about X'. Like oh my god no wonder the left eats itself.

I'm all for such kinds of discussions but I just can't see it when it comes to South Park because I never watched South Park and I never will. Always seemed insufferable to me.

 

[Human Trashcan]

I mean like 10 posts behind some dude pretty much called Dan on the fence for not mentioning gamergate in his south park review

where is the lie?

 

[Curious Puppy]

I hate these purity tests, especially over a south park game.

"They didn't say enough, they didn't say X about X'. Like oh my god no wonder the left eats itself.

This isn't a purity test, what the fuck are you talking about? I'm not suggesting GB doesn't have their heart in the right place, but when GG was first flaring up during the Zoe Quinn days they barely said a word about it. They only came out in relative force against it long after the damage was already done. This is exactly what Patrick was referring to on a recent Waypoint. People knew back then that ignoring the problem doesn't solve the problem, and that awareness has only grown since then, but GB West still almost never talks about politics. GB East has recently become a lot better about it. I'm not asking for them to devote 15 minutes a week to it, but 15 minutes a month or even two months would still be an improvement.

And to relate back to the South Park thing, all I and others are asking for is actually making a statement about its politics. I don't understand why thats such a big ask.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

No one's out here calling for blood, we're just talking. Why are you always the first one to bring up purity tests and how we're all cannibals whenever this kind of criticism comes up? Chill.

Knew I shouldn't have clicked that damn "view post" button

this is like the first time I've mentioned purity tests in this thread, silly.

This isn't a purity test, what the fuck are you talking about? I'm not suggesting GB doesn't have their heart in the right place, but when GG was first flaring up during the Zoe Quinn days they barely said a word about it. They only came out in relative force against it long after the damage was already done. This is exactly what Patrick was referring to on a recent Waypoint. People knew back then that ignoring the problem doesn't solve the problem, and that awareness has only grown since then, but GB West still almost never talks about politics. I'm not asking for them to devote 15 minutes a week to it, but 15 minutes a month or even two months would still be an improvement.

Because at the time it was just a stupid 4chan thing. If they came out and spoke out against every stupid /v/ campaign, each podcast would need a dedicated 30 minute section about it. It just happens that gamergate blew up compared to every other crusade 4chan has had, to the point where they were even kicked off 4chan. Nobody could've guessed it would've gotten as big as it did.

 

[imBask]

where is the lie?

he also never mentionned if he was for or against police brutality in that review, and there are cops in that game, are you assuming he's for it?

 

[OdysseusVA]

where is the lie?

What

 

[TraBuch]

It's amazing that in 2017, people still find South Park controversial.

 

[Curious Puppy]

Because at the time it was just a stupid 4chan thing. If they came out and spoke out against every stupid /v/ campaign, each podcast would need a dedicated 30 minute section about it. It just happens that gamergate blew up compared to every other crusade 4chan has had, to the point where they were even kicked off 4chan. Nobody could've guessed it would've gotten as big as it did.

Patrick specifically said they had long conversations about whether or not they should address it and ultimately the rest of the crew decided not to. People all over the internet including Twitter and GAF knew it wasn't just some flash in the pan.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Patrick specifically said they had long conversations about whether or not they should address it and ultimately the rest of the crew decided not to. People all over the internet including Twitter and GAF knew it wasn't just some flash in the pan.

Hindsight is 20/20, though. And we'll never know why they chose to not discuss it. Maybe it's ignorance, maybe it's because they thought it was a 4chan phase, we'll never know, unless patrick has given the reasons on why they chose not to discuss it?

 

[Death Metalist]

 

[Dineren]

I'm probably going to regret even wading into this since I think GB are good folks ultimately, but I also remember being pretty disappointed in GB's slow response and even Jeff's eventual letter. I should go read it again, but I seem to recall, that while it was anti-GG, it also had a bit of both sides are being extreme and ignore the trolls sort of tone to it.

I don't know nearly enough about South Park to know if Dan should have gone further in his review, but I don't think it is ever a bad thing for them to speak up when able. Still glad they are doing what they do though, their content brings a lot of happiness in these shitty times.

 

[BTA]

this is like the first time I've mentioned purity tests in this thread, silly.



Because at the time it was just a stupid 4chan thing. If they came out and spoke out against every stupid /v/ campaign, each podcast would need a dedicated 30 minute section about it. It just happens that gamergate blew up compared to every other crusade 4chan has had, to the point where they were even kicked off 4chan. Nobody could've guessed it would've gotten as big as it did.

Breezy, frankly: what the fuck are you talking about?

This is like... incredibly factually incorrect. Sure the organizing happened on 4chan (at first) but a ton of it played out on Twitter. Where I saw it play out daily, from the moment it started.

Please understand that people were being actively harassed and doxed and threatened and just about anyone with the power to impact the overall gaming community said jack shit. Understand what that was like. It was INCREDIBLY APPARENT from day like... -7 or whatever, if you consider day 0 when it got its name, that it was serious and vile and a problem that needed to be talked about.

and then literally 2 entire months later suddenly all these sites published the most vague shit over the fact that it might be sorta bad

meanwhile GGers thought Jeff agreed with their “ethics” campaign because of how he got fired

 

[TraBuch]

The problem is, Dan speaking up usually involves something like him tweeting "so yeah, this Trump guy seems like kind of a jerk!"

 

[Rainmaker]

Breezy is not equipped for this

 

[Tagyhag]

I think GB just has to find a good place to stand. I don't want them going full political because they don't have the eloquence of someone like Austin, but they shouldn't be silent either.

No one's out here calling for blood, we're just talking. Why are you always the first one to bring up purity tests and how we're all cannibals whenever this kind of criticism comes up? Chill.

Knew I shouldn't have clicked that damn "view post" button

Lol I agree with you but no need for this "I blocked you!" passive aggressiveness.

 

[Curious Puppy]

Hindsight is 20/20, though. And we'll never know why they chose to not discuss it. Maybe it's ignorance, maybe it's because they thought it was a 4chan phase, we'll never know, unless patrick has given the reasons on why they chose not to discuss it?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone knew what was happening.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Breezy, frankly: what the fuck are you talking about?

This is like... incredibly factually incorrect. Sure the organizing happened on 4chan (at first) but a ton of it played out on Twitter. Where I saw it play out daily, from the moment it started.

Please understand that people were being actively harassed and doxed and threatened and just about anyone with the power to impact the overall gaming community said jack shit. Understand what that was like. It was INCREDIBLY APPARENT from day like... -7 or whatever, if you consider day 0 when it got its name, that it was serious and vile and a problem that needed to be talked about.

and then literally 2 entire months later suddenly all these sites published the most vague shit over the fact that it might be sorta bad

meanwhile GGers thought Jeff agreed with their ”ethics" campaign because of how he got fired

Isn't that the point, though? Like, I didn't realize how much it was boiling, and I watched it unfold on GAF. Patrick was probably the only one who really dug deep into it in the first couple months within GB, but really...there's someone rewriting history if you think GG was to be taken seriously from day 1.

I think Jeff said in his letter(Or somewhere) that they'd rather not give GG power by constantly talking about them? And I agree with that?

The staff weighs in on recent events.
We've always been a site about different personalities. It's something that we hope helps us reach as wide an audience as possible. Over the course of the last two months, we've seen some people take up arms and begin firing shots back and forth. As we've discussed our course of action, and whether this discussion belongs on a site that represents all of us, we've tried to respect the opinions of both the staff and our audience. It's been hard at times to watch our hobby, industry, friends, and fans be attacked and to watch many of them also go on the offensive. While the reasons for all this chaos may be diverse, there are clearly actions taking place that are reprehensible. We don't want to turn the site into a political platform, but at the same time it's important to be clear that we as a staff and a community will not tolerate abuse, no matter how strongly one's passions run. We don't feel we are addressing the offenders that have lashed out most savagely, claiming an agenda to give themselves clearance to continue harassment and attacks. They are not participants in this discussion, and serve only to inflame and frighten those of us who seek resolution. In the end, we've decided to speak directly to you, our fans and community. We've been talking about this a lot internally, and we believe Jeff's following thoughts effectively capture what we've been feeling over the last few weeks. It has been a trying time, especially for those that have seen the worst of what the Internet can become. We hope through support, civil discussion, and reliance on both facts and empathy, we can heal, and then get back to building and expanding the thing we're all passionate about: games.

- The Giant Bomb Staff

--

The last two months have felt like I've been staring at some kind of slow-motion car crash. Actually, has it only been two months? At this point, it's getting harder and harder to remember a time before Zoe Quinn's unlikely (and almost certainly unwanted) rise to prominence. How, exactly, did we jump from a group of knuckleheads bombing a Steam page for a game designed to, in its own way, help people better understand depression, to a hardened and politicized hate movement? How did we get from people arguing that Gone Home isn't a game to people harassing women in the video game industry while simultaneously claiming that they aren't? It's beyond the pale. And, preposterously, it's still happening. That might be the most shocking part of all.

Despite my name often being attached to the conspiratorial "gate" suffix, I've never been a big fan of the term. So when "GamerGate" rose up to cover over a campaign of harassment with a veneer of concern for the ethics of games journalism, it more or less set off every single disgust alarm I have. Though I'm sure some good people have been roped into this mess under this guise, the ethical concern portion of all this is largely a farce, a fallacy. But the string-pullers at the core of this mess have managed to rope in some number of unsuspecting players who do, in fact, think that this thing starts and stops with outrage over perceived ethical violations in the game journalism industry. To those of you who have been led to believe that this is all about ethics in games journalism and not about the harassment of game developers, I'll say this up front.

You have every right to not believe a word I'm saying here.

I'm a man in the media business. I've been doing this since I was 16. I could sit here and defend my line of work, which I think is largely just and on the level, but if you're deep into the 'Gate, your only reaction will be to probably say "of course he would say that." That's fine. Some of you have been politicized so completely that this is just another "left vs. right" issue to you, and many of you are using the same language used in arguments over other hardened political issues. So keep on "rolling coal" on video games journalism if you think it's actually that corrupt. I'm not here to tell you what to do. But you might want to really look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're spending your time crusading for the right fight. That's all. Make sure this is the position you want to take and, more importantly, how you want that position to be represented. If you genuinely care about ethics in games journalism, GamerGate is not the spot for you. To some of them, "unethical" is being used as a synonym for "a viewpoint I don't agree with." That's not an ethics discussion. That's an attempt to silence criticism. Again, if you do care about ethics in games journalism, GamerGate is destroying your message.

I'm saddened to see the topic that has driven much of my career become so wholly co-opted for hate. Ultimately, that's a side note to the main event, of course. Having people toss all discussion about ethics in games journalism under a bus to hide politicized harassment campaigns is sad for me, but I'll be fine. Games? Game developers? That's what's actually at stake. I'm not sure what the actual end goal of GamerGate seems to be, but it seems to be somewhere between "destroy the careers of anyone who would make a game that falls outside of a certain-yet-unspecified scope and/or topic" and "let's burn it all down because it's fun to see how much trouble we can stir up."

But GamerGate is a speed bump for the video game industry, at best. It was already on its way to the back burner when a fresh crop of death threats whipped everyone back up into a frenzy. The core group of instigators will probably find another group to target, and they'll leave behind a big mess of harassment, hurt, half-truths, and twisted words. It'll be fascinating to see how video games--whether you consider that to be a community, a business, a profession, or a hotbed of increasingly political bickering--moves forward. Regardless of all that, the torrent of harassment being spewed forth needs to stop. I shouldn't need to say "hey, don't issue death threats" for people to understand that issuing death threats is a crappy thing to do, but that's where we're at.

In many ways, that's been the most frustrating part. To watch talented folks like Jenn Frank get pushed right up to a breaking point and for the rest of us to have nothing better to combat this with than "hey, I know you think you're waging some kind of holy war and solving some kind of real-world issue but stop this" feels like the most empty and toothless statement around. It's easy to feel helpless and I don't have a real solution to this. I'm not sure that there is one, honestly. GamerGate has created a group of people who speak in political terms and attack the people they disagree with in the same way a political action group would target someone speaking out against that group's specified cause. They talk in circles that feel like they're designed to waste as much time as possible, exhausting their target in the process.

I hate to present this as one side attacking another side when, at the end of the day, the video games that join this whole thing together makes this more of an "us versus us" sort of conflict. But some of the people falling on the "anti-" side of the GamerGate are employing the same sort of "you are with us or against us" mentality. As those people get more frantic, they also damage the message they're trying to express. Silence isn't complicity. Silence might also be not letting a campaign of hate and chaos be taken seriously by not giving it a place at the table. Now, from a distance, this whole topic looks like every other politicized media conspiracy, with two sides full of extremists and a bunch of people in the middle looking disillusioned by the whole debacle.

Continued success in the face of adversity is the best defense against those that would seek to derail you and mire you in endless arguments that they control, that they frame, and that they aren't actually trying to win. Regardless of your own personal politics, stop letting GamerGate be in your way. For some of you, obviously, that will be an incredible challenge. Some people are getting a lot of hateful garbage hurled their way. But to give in would be to further enable a collection of people who don't even know what they actually want other than to simply disrupt you as much as they possibly can. We can't let that happen. We have faith that video games and the people who make them will persevere.

- Jeff Gerstmann

also holy fuck, 3 year anniversary already? Man. I wonder if GG was brought up because today was the day jeff put out the letter?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone knew what was happening.

Nope. That's some hindsight is 20/20 bullshit.

 

[Teddified]

surprise

Spoiler

peter brown

 

[RumbleHumble]

I'm reading through the thread, but finding issues linking South Park in such a way to gamergate that it somehow merits a mention from the GB guys in a review. Does the game invoke gamergate specifically in a somehow permissive way?

EDIT:
This question is not intended in any way as an endorsement of Jeff's "Ignore GG and it'll go away attitude". Ignoring bullshit as it happens allows it to persist.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

I also think it's worth mentioning that GG began with the serial harassment of a friend of the site who had appeared on multiple pieces of content. Suggesting that they shouldn't have brought it up as there's no way they could have seen if it was going to get as big as it is seems a little disingenuous. I think they learned from it though as they didn't tip-toe around the Palmer issue.

Plus one of the main character in TFBH is called "The Coon" it's not hard to see why certain people might be offended that people just brush over it.

 

[Twin Tails]

surprise

Spoiler

peter brown

The old games talk. Jeff let out a lot of it. SCART CABLES

 

[Death Metalist]

Let's not forget Jeff's comment during hottest mess of last year

Messes don’t get much hotter than actual white supremacy

 

[BTA]

Isn't that the point, though? Like, I didn't realize how much it was boiling, and I watched it unfold on GAF. Patrick was probably the only one who really dug deep into it in the first couple months within GB, but really...there's someone rewriting history if you think GG was to be taken seriously from day 1.

I think Jeff said in his letter(Or somewhere) that they'd rather not give GG power by constantly talking about them? And I agree with that?



also holy fuck, 3 year anniversary already? Man.

No. Like I said, staff members openly talked about on their own Twitters. They were on Twitter, following people involved, and knew exactly what was going on overall even if they didn’t see the tiny individual things happening. And even if only Patrick was the only one digging in, do you seriously think he just kept all of that to himself...?

And yeah, a lot of the sites publishing things that day said the same “we didn’t want to give them attention” thing and it was laughably ignorant. What’s better: letting them harass women out of the industry while you say absolutely nothing, or saying that the people harassing women are bad? Like at least the latter shows the people who’re suffering that you actually care about them.

 

[Antiwhippy]

It isn't though? I'm not sure what you understand activism to mean but that's an awfully broad definition if it includes waypoint. I'm not saying that to denigrate them, I love what they do and how they do it, mostly. But it is not even remotely an activist site or platform just because they talk about, y'know, issues, as they intersect with gaming.

For all intents and purpose I think they are. They don't just discuss about it, they are fairly hardline in their stance and do actively taker actions to promote their stance. They also do discuss how to properly actively organise and participate in activism.

 

[BTA]

Also, don’t forget that GG happened about 2 months after there was a big wave of harassment (with some of the same shitty people definitely involved) that happened on Twitter against women who were critical of Giant Bomb hiring two established white dudes. Which staff members (thankfully) spoke out against. This wasn’t even new to them.

it’s why we bought Rorie the fridge

 

[Curious Puppy]

Nope. That's some hindsight is 20/20 bullshit.

No it isn't. Look through the threads on GAF or elsewhere, do some google searches about what was being said on Twitter. Gaming media at large wasn't ignorant, they understood what was happening and some chose not to "take sides". The only bullshit on this page is coming from you.

 

[Death Metalist]

 

[BreezyLimbo]

No it isn't. Look through the threads on GAF or elsewhere, do some google searches about what was being said on Twitter. Gaming media at large wasn't ignorant, they understood what was happening and some chose not to "take sides". The only bullshit on this page is coming from you.

Look at it this way. It took GB 2 months to respond to it when it was one of their friends being harassed. It slipped by them. You really think everyone zoned in on it with lightning speed like you say they did?

 

[Jintor]

game dad!

 

[brianmcdoogle]

What’s better: letting them harass women out of the industry while you say absolutely nothing, or saying that the people harassing women are bad? Like at least the latter shows the people who’re suffering that you actually care about them.

Unless it is Leigh Alexander and then it’s ok to call her a “psychopath” or “sociopath” or whatever it was because she got drunk on a podcast, and let the community harass her. Sigh. As long as we are bringing things up I remember Jeff not having the best of responses in a podcast when Patrick brought up a news story about one of the main fighting game community people saying vile things.

 

[BTA]

Look at it this way. It took GB 2 months to respond to it when it was one of their friends being harassed. It slipped by them. You really think everyone zoned in on it with lightning speed like you say they did?

Serious question: are you being disingenuous or do you really not understand that it didn’t slip by them? Do I need to find old tweets of theirs to get you to understand? Or is the thing that you quoted yourself directly stating that they chose not to talk about it enough?

Silence isn't complicity. Silence might also be not letting a campaign of hate and chaos be taken seriously by not giving it a place at the table. Now, from a distance, this whole topic looks like every other politicized media conspiracy, with two sides full of extremists and a bunch of people in the middle looking disillusioned by the whole debacle.

This shit was bad then (and was not received well at the time), and it’s not looking any better in hindsight. Silence was absolutely complicity if saying nothing meant people get harassed without any visible support. The validity of GG - whether it deserved a “place at the table” - didn’t affect whether or not it ruined people’s lives.

They knew people took issue with them saying nothing and disagreed. They made the wrong choice.

EDIT: also, if we really wanna talk about that statement: despite Jeff intending not to give them any validity by not talking about it, the bit whining about “anti-gamergate” sure did that

 

[RumbleHumble]

Serious question: are you being disingenuous or do you really not understand that it didn’t slip by them? Do I need to find old tweets of theirs to get you to understand? Or is the thing that you quoted yourself directly stating that they chose not to talk about it enough?



This shit was bad then (and was not received well at the time), and it’s not looking any better in hindsight. Silence was absolutely complicity if saying nothing meant people get harassed without any visible support. The validity of GG - whether it deserved a “place at the table” - didn’t affect whether or not it ruined people’s lives.

They knew people took issue with them saying nothing and disagreed. They made the wrong choice.

Agreed, BTA. Jeff wouldn't of needed to justify the site's silence on the issue if they weren't aware of it earlier.

Also I forgot Jeff tried to claim silence as not being complicit. In the Age of Trump, we now know better.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

Agreed, BTA. Jeff wouldn't of needed to justify the site's silence on the issue if they weren't aware of it earlier.

Also I forgot Jeff tried to claim silence as not being complicit. In the Age of Trump, we now know better.

Yeah, just look at a basic timeline of when it all stared and the post date of that letter from the editor to see that it want some sudden thing. Hell, the letter mentions in that it took over two month for them to put something out as a response.

 

[Archaix]

I haven't watched his stream since he first did Dark Souls, now seems like a good time to see how it's been going.

edit: Dammit, giant robots are also fighting on twitch in fifteen minutes. Decisions, decisions.

 

[BTA]

Sorry again if I’m coming across as too harsh in this. I’m maybe not in the best place mentally tonight. But also as someone who saw GG’s harassment as it happened, and followed it very closely for at least the first... maybe half a year plus? I feel very very strongly about when this stuff gets confused or erased even if by accident.

also I just spent way too long playing this tedious Nier DLC as a result of this whoops

 

[OdysseusVA]

Crack an egg on your head let the yoke drip down

 

[pizzacat]

i wonder how mad yall are gonna get when the new rick and morty joint goes up

 

[stump sock]

 

[Jintor]

stump what dope japanese music should jeff gerstman listen to

 

[NeroAngelo]

Loudness, natch

 

[yami4ct]

stump what dope japanese music should jeff gerstman listen to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpRZ64I1Qvs