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God of War creator (David Scott Jaffe) criticizes the high difficulty of games like Metroid Dread, Kena and Returnal
- Thread starter fermcr
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JoeBudden
Member
No one's taking anything away by adding a difficulty toggle lol.
Interfectum
Member
It removes the game's teeth. It would have a profound effect how it's discussed online.
Because no game series has ever gone down in quality from trying to appeal to the masses.
Do some people actually believe all developers should have the modern Blizzard, EA and Ubisoft mentality?
Swift_Star
Banned
GoW has one of the best action oriented gameplay in the industry, source for this claim?
alucard0712_rus
Gold Member
What's funny is that exactly those 3 games I've really enjoyed the most 
Swift_Star
Banned
Kena has one and it doesn't. People are talking about difficulty in normal mode because that's the preferred way of playing.
JoeBudden
Member
The discussion online would change due to the inflow of new casuals discussing the game. But the game itself would be fundamentally the same provided the higher difficulty aligns with the developers vision.
I think it should be something like a simple binary choice: a casual mode, and a normal mode.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And it does indeed impact game design overall. Hard difficulties in games with easier toggles do not have the same craft and feel as one just designed around a challenge from its core. The concessions to make them harder stick out like a sore thumb, more often than not.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
The game isn’t hard.. most of the “ hard games “ like souls are just games that require a bit of skill.. a learning curve.. which makes them infinitely more rewardingly.
I beat just about every boss in Metroid dread with only getting hit a few after a few tries.
they all have patterns and counters.
I beat just about every boss in Metroid dread with only getting hit a few after a few tries.
they all have patterns and counters.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I noticed this is also a lost art with the normie boom in gaming. I too fell victim to this when we had the decade plus of easy AAA blockbusters that required little to no thought with hint popups in your face only 20 seconds into a puzzle, and you can just force spam attacks. Had my ass handed to me in Souls games initially, where I had to readjust and go back to the NES days of pattern learning and the like, now they aren't much of an issue if you're patient and are willing to learn.
People don't want to think anymore, even if it's the most minor of thoughts when trying to reach a goal. This reflects across all facets of our current downward spiral in society.
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Mithos
Member
He said not only, and the second definition on the very site you linked too.. (if you would have bothered to visit it)
fermcr
Member
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/masochist
"noun
- Psychiatry. a person who has masochism, the condition in which sexual or other gratification depends on one's suffering physical pain or humiliation.
- a person who is gratified by pain, degradation, etc., that is self-imposed or imposed by others.
- a person who finds pleasure in self-denial, submissiveness, etc."
fart town usa
Gold Member
Metroid games are definitely tough but that should be expected. I'd hate to see Metroid turned into an easy experience, the difficulty matches the games' tone perfectly.
As for Kena, that's interesting. I actually preordered the physical edition yesterday for my wife as a Christmas gift, thought she might enjoy it. She doesn't game much but is pretty good at them, she can still beat the OG Sonic on Genesis and I can't. I think that's impressive.
As for Kena, that's interesting. I actually preordered the physical edition yesterday for my wife as a Christmas gift, thought she might enjoy it. She doesn't game much but is pretty good at them, she can still beat the OG Sonic on Genesis and I can't. I think that's impressive.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I mean, why better yourself. I know, right?
Badlucktroll
Member
I understand where he is coming from. I even get rekt in Deathloop. What ever happened to shit thats straight up fun to play? I would cite the first Uncharted, and the first Gears of War as examples. I have had alot more “fuck this shit” moments in the last few years than ever before.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
How about, its good to have different games for different moods and mindsets?
I like challenging games, but not all the time.
3 games, is not all the games! So even if I concede that maybe Metroid, and Kena may offer stiffer resistance than expected, you can't really say that about Returnal, Which from the outset was promoted as a capital "C" challenge to be overcome. Meaning that what Jaffe is talking about is only 2 games, and of those Kena for sure has an easy option for those who just want to enjoy the story.
Doesn't seem like much of a case to answer.
I like challenging games, but not all the time.
3 games, is not all the games! So even if I concede that maybe Metroid, and Kena may offer stiffer resistance than expected, you can't really say that about Returnal, Which from the outset was promoted as a capital "C" challenge to be overcome. Meaning that what Jaffe is talking about is only 2 games, and of those Kena for sure has an easy option for those who just want to enjoy the story.
Doesn't seem like much of a case to answer.
Interfectum
Member
Kena doesn't really seem designed around difficulty, rather it just spikes on bosses.Kena has one and it doesn't. People are talking about difficulty in normal mode because that's the preferred way of playing.
Souls games thrive on being unforgiving. Every piece of it's design from traversing the levels to the boss fights to the discourse online revolve around getting through the game. If you remove the difficulty and add a casual mode then the game they play is no longer the masterpiece that it is said to be. I don't know why people keep removing difficulty from discussion on the quality of the game. They are interlinked in games like these and if you remove one, you hurt the other.
Personally I don't care if they add a casual mode to the games it just feels pointless. It's like if someone were begging to watch a Friday the 13th horror movie but please remove the blood and kill scenes. The fuck is the point?
01011001
Banned
Dark Souls 3 released on only a single generation and was never remastered wtf are you smoking?
JoeBudden
Member
My bad I'm mixing it up with Dark Souls 1.
Either way, this back and forth is pointless, my point still stands they would sell a lot more if they made their games more accessible to more people. It's just common sense.
Mossybrew
Member
And there's really no penalty for dying, just restart the boss. I don't like frustratingly hard games - I've stayed away from Returnal because I've read enough to know it's not for me, but I didn't find Kena to be in that category. It had a good challenge on bosses but wasn't punishing.
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Interfectum
Member
There is no way to back that up though and the argument could be made that the Souls games would lose all credibility and sales over time should they add a mode like that.
Killer Sakoman
Member
I think that people got used to easy games that came during PS360 generation.
Kena for example has PS2 generation difficulty. The difficulty isn't anything new. Just developers are finally not afraid to challenge players.
Kena for example has PS2 generation difficulty. The difficulty isn't anything new. Just developers are finally not afraid to challenge players.
GreatnessRD
Member
Do better, pussy
01011001
Banned
you have literally zero proof of that. especially since Dark Souls in particular is dependent on the way it plays.
more than 10 million copies sold is extremely good. how come many high profile, more casual games, don't sell that many copies?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I’m actually the opposite. I find harder games easier to manage. It’s those heavy cutscene games like Kingdom Hearts III. Where you have an hour before you get to save manually. Death Stranding isn’t bad now that I think about it. I have been able to replay all of the Souls games because it’s literally the easiest game to manage when you can’t guarantee how much play time you’ll get. I think it comes down to memorizing patterns and understanding that not everything is to be taken at face value.
Metroid was always the game where you shot everything, laid a bomb down at each spot on the floor, and etc. Once you reach that sweet spot where you have all the upgrades - you just fly through everything.
All the games are different. My only gripe is messing up a pattern and getting slain because of it. Outside of Sekiro, most of the From Software games give you a workaround and most of the time it comes from leveling up or figuring out how to take out an area of dangerous enemies. You learn patterns and you learn to be defensive.
A boss might take 4-5 minutes to beat if you look at your winning run, so it’s actually not a huge time sink unless you aren’t prepared. What I really enjoy about From Software games is the journey to get prepared. It isn’t some endurance run. That’s what really sets it apart from say Returnal. Returnal felt more like it was testing my endurance rather than it was giving me something difficult to overcome. If you consider how some of the bosses were. The only gripe was the restart took forever. I could have fought a hard boss and had a good time if my checkpoint was decent. What’s frustrating to me are checkpoints that suck.
Swift_Star
Banned
Not punishing, just boring.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
It was good because it gave us a challenge. The big Minotaur fight in God of War. I remember sitting there in my basement getting so frustrated at those circular joystick QTE’s.
LordOfChaos
Member
It's almost funny that Sigrun in GoW4 was harder for me than any of those hard games for some reason. I know he wasn't on the series by then though.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Some games live off the difficulty. FROM games don't work on easy mode. Would some people still enjoy the games? Sure. But it would be a different game. Gitting gud is an essential part of the experience.Really, dude?
From Software's Hidetaka Miyazaki Explains Why Souls Games Don't Have Difficulty Settings
From Software's Soulsborne games are known for their challenge and unforgiving nature. Another notable feature of the Soulsborne games is the absence of atwinfinite.net
Every fucking time a new From game is released we have this discussion
I know a person that watches Netflix shows at 1.5x speed. Definitely not the way it was intended to be seen.
But this person has watched all of the +4 seasons of the show and loved it.
This doesnt hurt the viewing experience for other people, so why the hell not?
Gaming is an interactive media, so things get even more subjective.
I may finish Mario Odyssey only using basic jumping and collecting the required moons. Other person may finish it using the whole set of movements and habilities and collecting all moons.
Both enjoyed the game in their own way
Let people choose how to play your game
Look how many people would have enjoyed Returnal WAY more with a saving system.
How many people would have replayed Bloodborne with an easy mode just to breeze through and see all that art again.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Yea, just look at the demo. The Hydra battle was something you never saw in video games. It was intense, it looks awesome, and you felt good slashing it like a madman. Things were hard, but you felt like you could take on anything the game would throw at you with the Blades of Chaos. That’s what made God of War so special. His weapons felt fluid and you felt like you were ripping and tearing everything around you.
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JoeBudden
Member
...and, you have zero evidence that From Soft is maximizing their revenues with its current game design. We're all speculating here for discussion's sake.
All I'm saying is, you don't need to change the way the game plays, just provide an easier game mode to increase accessibility.
And, like I said earlier in this thread, there are tons of examples on both sides of the argument we can provide here.
Horizon is a new IP that sold over 10m on one platform before it went to PC. It has a difficulty scaling that ranges from casual story mode to an ultra hard mode that was released after the game was released (much harder than very hard mode) and 22.5% of players have the trophy associated with beating the game on ultra hard (as per PSNProfiles.com).
Let's be real here, different difficulty settings won't fundamentally change the experience for you if you plan on playing the difficulty setting that aligns with the developers' vision. Fans of these hard games just want to gate the game from casuals because are concerned about the overall discussion around the games if casuals joined in on it. You guys wanna keep the club exclusive, and I get why.
KormaChameleon
Member
I mean, there's nothing wrong with easy games. If people want a challenge then that's fine. But, why do every game need to hold your hand though?
Sakura
Member
Why would "casuals" want to play an easy mode Souls game?
So they can enjoy the rich cinematic narrative?
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Not every game meant to appeal to everyone, if the difficulty is too much for you then play something else, it’s that simple.
This is no different than games that have high amount violence and gore, some people just can’t handle it but it doesn’t mean devs are not allowed to make it.
Games are better when they are not trying be everything for everyone, because it much more focus experience.
This is no different than games that have high amount violence and gore, some people just can’t handle it but it doesn’t mean devs are not allowed to make it.
Games are better when they are not trying be everything for everyone, because it much more focus experience.
Buggy Loop
Member
And especially coming from Nintendo. I mean compared to what Zelda had become, filled with linear paths, progression and tutorials galore, to then BOTW. Same with Metroid, although to a lesser extent. I much prefer this trend that respect player intelligence, over painting all the fucking edges you can grab/climb with white/yellow paint.
justiceiro
Marlboro: Other M
Nah, literally all the games he mentioned have one thing in common: done in a budget. And what is the easiest way to inflate the amount of content you have? That's right, make it damn hard.
GymWolf
Member
True, that bitch on hard is more difficult than 99% of souls bosses, at least it was for me, no other boss has like 15 different fucking moves...
Fuz
Banned
I'm a PC guy. Why the fuck would I want a console?
And by the way, I can't stand controllers. I just can't use them.
I only have a DS (which I really liked).
TrebleShot
Member
Completely agree with him.
I don’t think there’s any god given right for games to have options and an easy mode.
All I can say is I would have finished Returnal if there was an easier game mode.
I cheesed most of demons souls bosses and enjoyed it, I just want to enjoy games and media I don’t need to be challenged to play something, my job is challenging enough.
I’d appreciate it if there was some sort of AI scaling in these games , surely that’s possible , gets more difficult for the pros and easier for the guys along for a normal challenge.
I don’t think there’s any god given right for games to have options and an easy mode.
All I can say is I would have finished Returnal if there was an easier game mode.
I cheesed most of demons souls bosses and enjoyed it, I just want to enjoy games and media I don’t need to be challenged to play something, my job is challenging enough.
I’d appreciate it if there was some sort of AI scaling in these games , surely that’s possible , gets more difficult for the pros and easier for the guys along for a normal challenge.
01011001
Banned
exactly, Dread is my GOTY and it's not even close
GymWolf
Member
Botw is a cakewalk tho, you don't have yellow painting but you have drinking potions from a menu that make dying or even failing a climb a matter of how much full your inventory is, not exactly hard or stimulating dude, and enemies are mostly retarded and suicidal...
The only moment that game is kinda hard are the first 5 hours because you have the unrealistic health and stamina of a 90years old...
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JoeBudden
Member
Yep. I was going to say that games that depend on super hard difficulty, are often very hollow games. There's not much actual content in games like Returnal or Souls games.
People here would've just gotten triggered tho.
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