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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

CGNoire

Member
Not nearly critical enough. Its like he's SCARED to say bad things about the game. Spent like an entire minute saying good things about the gameplay before he dared critique the graphics.

Good start. But we need these guys to be more up front. God I wish I had a platform lol
Exactly MFer spent a majority of the time fluffing up the game so that his critque would land softer. DF does this all the damm time. Exspecially when dealing with games from huge publishers.

Looking at and analysing high end graphics all day doesnt make you less perceptive of flaws it makes you far more perceptive of them. Which is why DF has zero excuses for not noticeing the descrepencies. There a fucking joke.
 
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CGNoire

Member
i look at this and wonder if these companies are just losing the plot here. Spiderman 2018 came out on PS4 and ran at 1080p/30fps. It looked really good, was one of the best looking games on PS4, but still, it was a last-gen game. But Sony also had this PS4 Pro and the game ran on that, with a major boost to resolution and IQ. That's how I played it, and it looked really great imo, though still at 30fps. But oh wait, then Sony released another version of the game for PS5, which ran at 4K/60fps, or with some other modes that added RT, also some upgrades to the hardware, etc. So now they release Spiderman 2 and well, it looks like a minor iteration of Spiderman Remastered, and all I can think is, why wouldn't it? It's a PS5-to-PS5 game. Spiderman Remastered surely had some of the tech they were working on for Spiderman 2. How can anyone reasonably expect Spiderman 2 PS5 to be a major leap over Spiderman Remastered, it's fundamentally the same technology. This stuff about "not being held back by last gen" turns out to not really be that relevant because Spiderman Remastered had a whole bunch of stuff that wasnt on PS4.

If Sony just had a base PS4, with Spiderman, then released Spiderman 2 on PS5, it'd look like a much bigger upgrade.
What long winded way of just saying. It got RT and is @4k and has a 60fps mode. So its totally next gen to me.

Litterally half this thread is people calling out what a complete waste of resources those things are. Paying $10 extra "per game" for 4k 60fps and some RT is dogshit.
 
I tried the Alone in the dark prologue yesterday and was impressed by the graphics.
And behold, when you walk against a chair or book it moves! When you walk against the curtains they move too! I've played so many triple A games the last couple of years that don't have this feature.
The moving curtains feel like a next gen feature although we allready had it in the prince of persia games on 360. That's really sad...
 
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You guys aren’t talking about this because they’re so slick but it was slyly revealed today that Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart will run on the steam deck.

Yes that’s right the 1.6 tflop handheld which is roughly as powerful as the base ps4 for the base steamdeck model.

Disgusting. The 3rd most impressive PS5 title thus far (bronze medal to Demons Souls and Burning Shores) will be running on a goddamn 1.6tflop handheld. Any pretension it was flexing the PS5’s power is empirically dead.

SlimySnake SlimySnake
 
You guys aren’t talking about this because they’re so slick but it was slyly revealed today that Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart will run on the steam deck.

Yes that’s right the 1.6 tflop handheld which is roughly as powerful as the base ps4 for the base steamdeck model.

Disgusting. The 3rd most impressive PS5 title thus far (bronze medal to Demons Souls and Burning Shores) will be running on a goddamn 1.6tflop handheld. Any pretension it was flexing the PS5’s power is empirically dead.

SlimySnake SlimySnake
What the hell is going on this gen?
 

blastprocessor

The Amiga Brotherhood
The thing is, how much can they improve?

Not much. It's a PS4 game as a basis so Insomniac have taken that base and tweaked the existing assets and extended it with new locations. I'm sure there are enhancements to RT but we'll wait and see. It wouldn't make sense to author much higher quality new assets for new locations as they would look out of place versus existing enhanced assets. I imagine development time has dictated the look.

If the location of Spiderman 3 changes completely they could in theory re-base the game for PS5 entirely, so brand new assets from scratch (like Ratchet and Clank PS5) that should allow for a generational leap.

I would expect Insomniac to show a generational leap for their next Marvel game Wolverine.
 
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Not much. It's a PS4 game as a basis so Insomniac have taken that base and tweaked the existing assets and extended it with new locations. I'm sure there are ehancments to RT and lighting but we'll wait and see. It wouldn't make sense to author much higher quality new assets for new locations as they would look out of place versus existing enhanced assets. I imagine development time has dictated the look.

If the location of Spiderman 3 changes completely they could in theory re-base the game for PS5 entirely, so brand new assets from scratch (like Ratchet and Clank PS5) that should allow for a generational leap.

I would expect Insomniac to show a generational leap for their next Marvel game Wolverine.

On the contrary, Wolverine is being built from the ground up and likely not set in NYC, I don't expect it to be a fully fledged open world either, maybe something more semi-open world like GOW. For these reasons, there's a good chance it can look significantly better than what they've done before.

But who am I kidding at this point lol
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
You guys aren’t talking about this because they’re so slick but it was slyly revealed today that Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart will run on the steam deck.

Yes that’s right the 1.6 tflop handheld which is roughly as powerful as the base ps4 for the base steamdeck model.

Disgusting. The 3rd most impressive PS5 title thus far (bronze medal to Demons Souls and Burning Shores) will be running on a goddamn 1.6tflop handheld. Any pretension it was flexing the PS5’s power is empirically dead.

SlimySnake SlimySnake
I mean I told you so. How many times did I break down the tflops being wasted rendering the game at native 4k, let alone native 4k 40-50 fps like we saw in the vrr modes. How many times have I pointed out that they were essentially using 2.5 tflops to push the fidelity at 1080p then wasting the rest of the 10 tflops gpu on rendering pixels. Remove RT reflections and they game couldve looked that good on PS4. Now I still dont know how they get the level swapping done on PS4 so maybe that aspect of it is only possible on the steamdeck thanks to its ssd, but in terms of sheer graphics fidelity, I have always referred to these games as PS4.5 to the annoyance of a lot of people on gaf.

Turns out I was being too generous and these are PS4.1 games lmao.

P.S I have also always said that Insomniac is a B-Tier studio. They were one of the few who were given access to the PS5 early on, told to make a PS5 only game and they blew it. Twice. They probably shouldve been bought by Activision because they dont deserve to be part of a premiere group of Sony first party studios.

On the contrary, Wolverine is being built from the ground up and likely not set in NYC, I don't expect it to be a fully fledged open world either, maybe something more semi-open world like GOW. For these reasons, there's a good chance it can look significantly better than what they've done before.

But who am I kidding at this point lol

As a general rule, dont put your faith in insomniac. I warned you all. They are not your savior. They are a workman like studio with a workman like approach and mindset. They will never be the ones to push boundries, technological innovations or do anything remotely ambitious. Leave that to the big boys.
 
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Schmendrick

Member
Nice way to put it. Although the mere existence of The Matrix demo makes us doubt the notion that these consoles are not powerful enough.
It´s one tech demo from one engine that ran at fps and resolution levels unacceptable for the new console world without any of the background load real games have. I´d strongly advise not to take that situation as a reference for what is really possible in actual games.
If you listen around what devs are saying about UE5 5.2 and higher fps for example....it`s not all as rosy and decidingly not as easy as Epic`s PR makes it out to be. Nanite runs into issues if too many unique meshes are used and Lumen still seems to be a monstrous ressource hog despite all its bundled hybrid solutions. Maybe all that can be ressolved in time for breathtaking looking games this gen, maybe not. Expectation management is in order.
 
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KXVXII9X

Member
On the contrary, Wolverine is being built from the ground up and likely not set in NYC, I don't expect it to be a fully fledged open world either, maybe something more semi-open world like GOW. For these reasons, there's a good chance it can look significantly better than what they've done before.

But who am I kidding at this point lol
That is what I'm hoping as well. I won't hold my breath though lol.
 

Turk1993

GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
So you'd rather have 4K 60fps PS4 games rather than 2K 30fps PS5 games.
It´s one tech demo from one engine that ran at fps and resolution levels unacceptable for the new console world without any of the background load real games have. I´d strongly advise not to take that situation as a reference for what is really possible in actual games.
If you listen around what devs are saying about UE5 5.2 and higher fps for example....it`s not all as rosy and decidingly not as easy as Epic`s PR makes it out to be. Nanite runs into issues if too many unique meshes are used and Lumen still seems to be a monstrous ressource hog despite all its bundled hybrid solutions. Maybe all that can be ressolved in time for breathtaking looking games this gen, maybe not. Expectation management is in order.
The SM2 footage is 30fps and was running dynamic res 1296p - 1872p
druski-raising-hands-and-laughing-i9cd6jwup77zkstk.gif
 

PeteBull

Member
ps3 ff7 techdemo from 2005 vs actual game so ff7r on ps4(2019) i feel like u guys wanna get that kind of leap but just bear in mind it took 14 fricken years between the two.
Wait at least for ps5pr0 to get amazed, and if no then till ps6 when the console isnt having lowrange cpu and midrange gpu under the hood- yup this thing had to cost 500$ in holidays 2020, it was impossible to have there some op tech.
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/JmhFf7/amd-ryzen-7-5700x-34-ghz-8-core-processor-100-100000926wof this cpu and this gpu https://pcpartpicker.com/product/xf...x-6700-xt-12-gb-pulse-video-card-11306-02-20g are stronger from ps5 hardware in every possible cathegory, and those arent some top of the line expensive af pc parts.
 

OCASM

Banned
ps3 ff7 techdemo from 2005 vs actual game so ff7r on ps4(2019) i feel like u guys wanna get that kind of leap but just bear in mind it took 14 fricken years between the two.
Wait at least for ps5pr0 to get amazed, and if no then till ps6 when the console isnt having lowrange cpu and midrange gpu under the hood- yup this thing had to cost 500$ in holidays 2020, it was impossible to have there some op tech.
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/JmhFf7/amd-ryzen-7-5700x-34-ghz-8-core-processor-100-100000926wof this cpu and this gpu https://pcpartpicker.com/product/xf...x-6700-xt-12-gb-pulse-video-card-11306-02-20g are stronger from ps5 hardware in every possible cathegory, and those arent some top of the line expensive af pc parts.

Or maybe just this kind of leap:


 

PeteBull

Member
here u can see ps3 to ps5 leap in hardware+ competent dev studio, u can see right away the jump is massive, but it needed that big jump in hardware first as a prerequisite.
 

PeteBull

Member
The Matrix demo shows rendering leaps are in fact possible. If it can be done with a third party multiplatform engine it most definitely is possible with an exclusive first party engine.
If game dropped frames like matrix demo it would get decimated, man, its cool to play as test what those mashines are capable of, it wont be cool to play game at that framerate when we are so used to smooth 60 or worst case scenario at least stable 30.

look at that teaser of spiderman2, im sure u noticed right away its of much higher quality vs actual real spiderman2 gameplay trailer.
Maybe that teaser was just target render, maybe it was just in engine cinematics, doesnt matter, actual game will look like gameplay trailer or approx as good, not like that teaser trailer, gotta be realistic here.
 

Turk1993

GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
Am i crazy or the wall at 2:18 looks way more detailed in spidey ps4?
Probably because of the compression in the SM2 footage, but its a possibility that its actually lower quality like some other textures we found. Maybe they patch things up till launch but there are still some low quality assets and textures in the SM2 footage which is disappointing.
 

GymWolf

Member
Probably because of the compression in the SM2 footage, but its a possibility that its actually lower quality like some other textures we found. Maybe they patch things up till launch but there are still some low quality assets and textures in the SM2 footage which is disappointing.
So then why the df dude say that spidey 2 is better in that specific comparison?
 

Turk1993

GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
So then why the df dude say that spidey 2 is better in that specific comparison?
Hes also talking about how the water is soo much improved compared to Miles and the remaster but fails to see that they where downgraded compared to the OG game.
Already posted in the DF SM2 thread but here you go again

SM1water2.jpg

SM1water.jpg


vs

11.jpg



And the lighting is also not better imo, the remasters sunset setting looks equall or even better than SM2 lighting they showed. They compared it with the standard "day" time lighting and made it look inferior.
Marvel-s-Spider-Man-Remastered-20230526195908.png

Marvel-s-Spider-Man-Remastered-20230526193909.png

Marvel-s-Spider-Man-Remastered-20230526194211.png
 

CamHostage

Member
So then why the df dude say that spidey 2 is better in that specific comparison?

There's YT compression on the SM2 footage which is averaging the detail of this flat wall (though it's probably not that pretty in a clean source... it's a wall, with water stains, that's about it,) whereas SM1 they have direct-fed and know exactly what it's working with. The SM1 wall has big, defined bricks and a low-fidelity texture designed to not be obnoxious over repetition, whereas the SM2 one has more detail and clear deviation (plus some added decals of wear.) There's more "detail" to the second one, but the first one (which is also much closer to the camera) comes off looking clean and more easy to distinguish the definition because it's more basic and purposeful, especially in this comparison (some day we'll see when actual direct source is available if the change was worth it.)

8A20BZ8.png


Sometimes, "better" doesn't immediately look better (or worth the improvement.) Overall though, there should be a general sense in playing the game that it's less a cloned cityscape as you fly through.

There are also additions elsewhere of detail such as balconies window sills and structures added onto buildings, plus rounding of previously boxy structures. (These are the kind of thing probably that would have been done in any sequel with or without a next-gen upgrade, not much of it is the kind of next-gen increase of detail maybe we could imagine, but it'll help SM2 look less videogamey and polygonal where the worst-looking buildings stuck out because they didn't get much attention.)
 
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CamHostage

Member
Hes also talking about how the water is soo much improved compared to Miles and the remaster but fails to see that they where downgraded compared to the OG game.


SM1water.jpg

Eh, I don't love the water effects of SM2 (it still needs a lot more incidental effects to round out the boxy spray when he waterskis or the limited interactivity when he floats, and I don't know if they're going to get all that in.) However, it's a disingenuous argument to throw around the "downgrade" term.

For one thing, the water effect change from SM1 to SM:R/MM was a choice of style, likely not a technical choice. One version of the water has a lot of choppy texture which looks nice at certain distances but breaks as a clear texture in other conditions; the other is more smooth and has bigger "waves" and avoids that moving-tinfoil look and repeats less, but it has less pleasing definition and doesn't have the busy churn of real water. In either case, the way the water is done is the same; they just changed the texture or normal map arrangement, and people might like one approach better than another but it doesn't seem that the change would have been done for any performance reason. You can see in each version that the system is same, just one looks one way and the other looks a different way.



Regardless, the actual DF discussion about water is the actual effects and how they upgraded the water's interactivity and simulation, which is inarguably an improvement over SM1. (Whether it's enough of an improvement or if the improvements actually worked is debatable...) The water isn't just one basically flat surface in SM2 with some effects to make it look like it's moving, this new game has geometry changes and definition even when action is not splashing and churning it about. Watch the actual segment of the video, DF specifically talks about how the water is interactive, plus how it has a more consistent glossy look thanks to RT maintaining the reflections in ways that screenspace cannot do. You're looking at the similar churn texture of SM 2018 and SM2 versus the undulating texture of SM:MM, but it's the jetskis carving up waves in the background that DF is talking about being where the work went in.

There's not some never-before-seen next-gen water system here as far as I know (and even if it is doing anything new, the sum of the effects is not perfect,) but it simply and clearly is complex beyond what the developer used for water in the previous game.

(BTW, it kind of makes sense that they went back to a more churning surface texture this time, because now they have the geometry deformation ability to keep a consistent look close and far away.)
 
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rofif

Can’t Git Gud
You guys aren’t talking about this because they’re so slick but it was slyly revealed today that Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart will run on the steam deck.

Yes that’s right the 1.6 tflop handheld which is roughly as powerful as the base ps4 for the base steamdeck model.

Disgusting. The 3rd most impressive PS5 title thus far (bronze medal to Demons Souls and Burning Shores) will be running on a goddamn 1.6tflop handheld. Any pretension it was flexing the PS5’s power is empirically dead.

SlimySnake SlimySnake
Steam deck would wish to be as powerful as a ps4 but yeah.
If it can run on steam deck, it’s saying something
 

OCASM

Banned
If game dropped frames like matrix demo it would get decimated, man, its cool to play as test what those mashines are capable of, it wont be cool to play game at that framerate when we are so used to smooth 60 or worst case scenario at least stable 30.

look at that teaser of spiderman2, im sure u noticed right away its of much higher quality vs actual real spiderman2 gameplay trailer.
Maybe that teaser was just target render, maybe it was just in engine cinematics, doesnt matter, actual game will look like gameplay trailer or approx as good, not like that teaser trailer, gotta be realistic here.

Certainly a first party making an exclusive game can optimize their engine better than a third party making a multiplatform engine. The real issue is the mentality. SM2 is a PS4 that treats the PS5 as a Super PS4 Pro. There's nothing fundamentally different in their core tech. RT is layered on top and if replaced with SSR wouldn't drastically change how the game looks.
 
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Maybe it's because I play Spider-Man A LOT but I see it as a big upgrade over remastered and it looks slightly better than Miles but have people forgot that Miles is a next-gen game? It's like expecting the next Horizon to look leagues better than FW it's not happening on base PS5 within the same engine.
 

PeteBull

Member
Where my PS5 Pro at?
In the works, bro, earliest holiday 2024 we will be able to put our dirty hands on that beauty, or in 2025, all depends on how fast 3nm node at tmsc is mature enough, crazy tuff competition vs phones and nvidia too, so gotta be patient here :p
 

alloush

Member
In the works, bro, earliest holiday 2024 we will be able to put our dirty hands on that beauty, or in 2025, all depends on how fast 3nm node at tmsc is mature enough, crazy tuff competition vs phones and nvidia too, so gotta be patient here :p
God, I hope you’re right. Though I don’t see 2025 as a realistic target since the PS6 is expected to come out around 2027/2028
 
I tried the Alone in the dark prologue yesterday and was impressed by the graphics.
And behold, when you walk against a chair or book it moves! When you walk against the curtains they move too! I've played so many triple A games the last couple of years that don't have this feature.
The moving curtains feel like a next gen feature although we allready had it in the prince of persia games on 360. That's really sad...
Have you tried this in Naughty Dog games? Nearly every object has physics and actual sound attached to it. It's obviously not EVERY single object that you'd expect in real life but it's more than any other game dev.

Here are a few examples.









 

Represent.

Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Insomniac and Santa Monica

2 out of 4 of the big Sony devs have disappointed graphically with their games this gen.

Looks like it’s up to Guerilla and Naughty Dog to continue to push things forward.

They legit might be the only 2 devs left I have faith in, industry wide, to produce next gen visuals.
 
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Insomniac and Santa Monica

2 out of 4 of the big Sony devs have disappointed graphically with their games this gen.

Looks like it’s up to Guerilla and Naughty Dog to continue to push things forward.

They legit might be the only 2 devs left I have faith in, industry wide, to produce next gen visuals.
God of War at least makes sense, it's a cross-gen game, can't make the same excuse for SM2.
 

PeteBull

Member
God of War at least makes sense, it's a cross-gen game, can't make the same excuse for SM2.
SM2 has raytracing, that takes tons of avaiable cpu and gpu power of base ps5, dunno exactly but 25-30% at the least, HFW and its dlc had no rt so all the oomph could have gone into rasterisation performance.
We even got perfect example on how much, roughly of performance it eats, thx to DF spiderman remaster/rt perf video right there

Whats even better, it also shows u how small gap ps4pr0 vs ps5 there is actually, ps5 fidelity mode(so non rt) doesnt even run in native 4k30 but has dynamic res, and in worst case scenario resolution goes down to under 1600p which was bestcase dynamic res for ps4pr0 (ofc many improvements in ps5 version, but gotta make things clear- ps5 isnt some infinite power juggernaut compared vs ps4pr0).

RT performance mode tops out at 1440p60 and in absolute worst situation can drop to 1080p60.
All is in the vid but incase some1 wants the data lined up here w/o watching, i typed them :p
 
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