Support NeoGAF

[Gonzito]

Nah, you people are just easy to please.

 

[geary]

Nah, you people are just easy to please as usual.

 

[BlownUpRich]

This looks absolutely amazing to me. I literally said wow when i first saw it.

This does look stunning I have to say.

 

[GymWolf]

Dont get me wrong, i like that small video, but more for the mountains in the background and how the video is framed, it is just the water that look nothing special to me.

Just a reminder that this is a old gen AA pirate game sea

 

[CowboyLou]

The water itself looks good but the underwater terrain, vegetation etc. are a bit lacking, a bit plain. HFW had some underwater areas that looked better iirc. Maybe it's just that underwater itself is kinda boring, but it's a video game, spice it up a little.

 

[Gonzito]

The water itself looks good but the underwater terrain, vegetation etc. are a bit lacking, a bit plain. HFW had some underwater areas that looked better iirc. Maybe it's just that underwater itself is kinda boring, but it's a video game, spice it up a little.

It must be difficult to make the underwater section super detailed because unlike other games, 90% of the map in Black Flag is water lol

 

[SlimySnake]

Dont get me wrong, i like that small video, but more for the mountains in the background and how the video is framed, it is just the water that look nothing special to me.

i LOVE the water texture. i am disappointed that its not a full blown simulation like Crimson Desert but the blue water texture is so pretty. i also love the light bounce off of Kenway's character model. he stands out and its beautiful.

Just a reminder that this is a old gen AA pirate game sea

Black Flags had some stunning waves during storms too. Im sure they've been upgraded as well.

 

[GymWolf]

i LOVE the water texture. i am disappointed that its not a full blown simulation like Crimson Desert but the blue water texture is so pretty. i also love the light bounce off of Kenway's character model. he stands out and its beautiful.

Black Flags had some stunning waves during storms too. Im sure they've been upgraded as well.

I think devs maxed out the look of water for this gen, so now i would like to see some advancement in physics, crimson at least try something...

Let's hope they did something in that regard and it is not just another nice to look water that act nothing like water.

Crimson really spoiled us.

 

[SlimySnake]

The water itself looks good but the underwater terrain, vegetation etc. are a bit lacking, a bit plain. HFW had some underwater areas that looked better iirc. Maybe it's just that underwater itself is kinda boring, but it's a video game, spice it up a little.

HFW was doing a lot of things ahead of its time. we were too harsh on it in retrospect lol.

i was watching some exodus footage of dialogue conversations and its so stilted. im like HFW created a procedural animation system for these dialogue trees 4 years ago. can someone call them up or at least try and ape it?

no one wants to implement hero lighting, very few devs have matched the water tech, character models are still industry leading for open world games. 4 years later.

 

[SlimySnake]

Well, good to see ambition is still alive at Naughty Dog.



I think they revealed the game too early and had nothing really to show for it so created a fake trailer for it.

 

[GymWolf]

Well, good to see ambition is still alive at Naughty Dog.



I think they revealed the game too early and had nothing really to show for it so created a fake trailer for it.

They are sony last hope.

 

[Bojji]

HFW was doing a lot of things ahead of its time. we were too harsh on it in retrospect lol.

i was watching some exodus footage of dialogue conversations and its so stilted. im like HFW created a procedural animation system for these dialogue trees 4 years ago. can someone call them up or at least try and ape it?

no one wants to implement hero lighting, very few devs have matched the water tech, character models are still industry leading for open world games. 4 years later.

Character models are from UE5 tech.

Personally I'm not a fan of hero lightning, it doesn't make sense when your character glows for no good reason. If game had RTGI, here lighting would break it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Why couldnt the entire game look like this lol. This looks next gen as fuck.

 

[geary]

 

[mrMUR_96]

24 GB is 20% less than 30 GB. Not 30%. At least get the math right before calling bullshit. If that's still pretty close, you might as well declare 0% is pretty close to 37.5%.

The only bottleneck on paper is going to be the CPU. And if games are less CPU bound next gen due to new programming paradigms like GPU work graphs, none of it matters. Just drop the resolution and frame rate to rock bottom, disable path tracing and use AI upscaling.

Ah, just disable path tracing. oh wait, you have no lighting now so devs are still forced to use old lighting and layer on PT additionally for the ps6. How will this not hold back the ps6.

 

[mrMUR_96]

Meanwhile guerilla gives you this

Absolute slop character design. Afroman, sjw girl and vegan pensioner.

 

[Alex11]

Why couldnt the entire game look like this lol. This looks next gen as fuck.

Wow, this looks impressive, does it look like that in gameplay?

 

[SlimySnake]

Wow, this looks impressive, does it look like that in gameplay?

Yep. Especially when the particles start flowing and i dont mean just the bullet hell. They are doing some very fancy fluid animations with some bosses like wings leaving these fancy trails and your own bullets that zoom around the map. its so pretty at 60 fps.

 

[CowboyLou]

It's funny seeing all the comments on the DF review saying things like "yet another UE5 game that only runs well with good IQ because it doesn't use the advanced features" when apparently (according to NX Gamer) it's making at least some use of Nanite and VSMs.

 

[GymWolf]

Character models are from UE5 tech.

Personally I'm not a fan of hero lightning, it doesn't make sense when your character glows for no good reason. If game had RTGI, here lighting would break it.

Horizon vegetation is still among the best.

 

[Vick]

Horizon vegetation is still among the best.

Yep.

 

[Msamy]

Truly Fuck youtube the direct feed of those small new black flag videos looks far better

 

[geary]

Horizon vegetation is still among the best.

I'll say KCD2 tops it. Cryengine is unmatched on vegetation imo.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

I was just expecting best water in the business from a freakin pirate game where water is the main course after all the praises

Especially when a 4 years old crossgen sea look like this

Yeah Horizon water looks better.

 

[viveks86]

Interesting post. Personally, I thought there's no chance in hell these are cubemaps.

Time-Stamped 4K:

Agreed. This was my original conclusion on what the game was doing, but the extent to which SSR is being applied here is making me question if there is an alternative explanation. The artifacts from SSR occlusion from moving objects puts it a step behind Cyberpunk's RT reflections. If that is indeed RT, then the conclusion is RT for static objects (instead of cube maps) and may be some moving objects (though I'm yet to spot one), and SSR for NPCs and other dynamic objects. And that's on land. While sailing, I'm yet to find a good example of RT without any SSR artifacts.

As for the ocean, there's a chance RT reflections are reserved for close distance?

Seeing the same artifacts in close distance as well. Here's the same shot of the mast on the island that is right in front of the boat. Notice the reflection change as soon as the mast occludes the structure being reflected (around the 3rd frame). Though in this case, there is some fall back, so it doesn't completely vanish.

They look just like Cyberpunk RT reflections.

I can't recall Cyberpunk with such SSR artifacting, so I'd still put it ahead.

So I'd say it's just a matter of a SSR layer on top of the RT, which is not uncommon practice.

Agreed. Quite plausible on land at least.

Well, those are great PCSS shadows no matter what. I honestly can't distinguish them from RT ones.

No doubt. Which is why I'm considering this to be a PC ultra build. The quality is a bit too good. It's not the PCSS itself that is impressive. Like you said, it has been around for a while. It's the quality of every single shadow. It's near pixel perfect.

In any case, this all bode really well for PS5 Pro version. And of course PC.

They nailed it with AC shadows already, so I agree. And now with RTGI on all modes, it's gonna look great!

Nice analysis.

RT shadows can still have pop in, it depends on BVH LOD, and entire shadows are poping in like that (with no resolution changes like with CSMs).

Though plausible, the shadows themselves are still a bit too sharp to be RT shadows. You won't get shadows like this if it were ray traced. No penumbra on so many individual leaves that should be blending into each other if ray traced, despite being distant enough from the ground. This has to be PCSS + CSMs on the best possible quality (hence my conclusion that this is potentially PC Ultra). And if they actually had RT shadows, they would have announced it as it would be a whole new feature in their engine.

Happy to be proven wrong with counter evidence or by DF, especially about the shadows. The game has already announced
RT reflections, so that's more of a grey area on the extent to which it is applied. It obviously has to be there somewhere.

 

[alloush]

I know you love black fags with a passion

 

[Vick]

I can't recall Cyberpunk with such SSR artifacting, so I'd still put it ahead.

Oh me too, was just referring to the RT portion of it (pixel perfect details, shadows, but blurry large surfaces textures), not the SSR artifacts.

I think the theory of RT reflections for static objects + SSR for dynamic makes a lot of sense. And maybe, for the ocean, SSR only.

No doubt. Which is why I'm considering this to be a PC ultra build. The quality is a bit too good. It's not the PCSS itself that is impressive. Like you said, it has been around for a while. It's the quality of every single shadow. It's near pixel perfect.

Indeed, they are perfect in most footage. Even though I'm pretty sure I noticed at times they don't cover every blade of grass, just like Uncharted 4:

Speaking of water and shadows though, I really wish other games had volumetric shadows on water. It's such a beatiful effect that adds so much realism.

I think it's wild that I've only ever seen them in a last gen game from 10 years ago.

Though plausible, the shadows themselves are still a bit too sharp to be RT shadows. You won't get shadows like this if it were ray traced. No penumbra on so many individual leaves that should be blending into each other if ray traced, despite being distant enough from the ground.

In some clips shadows do indeed appear to be completely different, just like the picture you shared. Maybe only some footage have them enabled?
Would be strange if their PCSS solution works so perfectly in some occasions, and not really much in others.

This has to be PCSS + CSMs on the best possible quality (hence my conclusion that this is potentially PC Ultra). And if they actually had RT shadows, they would have announced it as it would be a whole new feature in their engine.

Yeah, true. Guess there's always the chance RT shadows could be among the "additional rendering techniques" they mentioned for PS5 Pro version.. not all that likely, but wonder what those could be.

Or the "Extended RayTracing" on high end PC:

 

[GymWolf]

I'll say KCD2 tops it. Cryengine is unmatched on vegetation imo.

but horizon has far more varied vegetation tho, and stuff like this

Yeah dude i dont know how much kc2 vegetation looks better than this...

 

[Gonzito]

I know you love black fags

Lol I did not see this one, I guess you edit it at the last moment

 

[Gonzito]

but horizon has far more varied vegetation tho, and stuff like this

Yeah dude i dont know how much kc2 vegetation looks better than this...

Horizon looks insane, I think in terms in textures and quality of assets its one of the best. Its impossible to find a bad texture or ugly asset in it

 

[geary]

but horizon has far more varied vegetation tho, and stuff like this

Yeah dude i dont know how much kc2 vegetation looks better than this...

HZD is more eye candy, but KDC2 more grounded

 

[Represent.]

Naughty Dog is fucking cooking.

Can't wait to see more Intergalactic.

 

[CowboyLou]

HZD is more eye candy, but KDC2 more grounded

This. I'd give the technical edge to Horizon but KCD2 is the more "convincing" because it's trying to depict reality instead of a video game-y hyperreality. The terrain and foliage in KCD2 is second to none in realism, imo.

 

[Luipadre]

Naughty Dog is fucking cooking.

Can't wait to see more Intergalactic.

They better be. Every sequel has been a disappointment to me this gen from Sony. This is a new IP, a scifi one too and from one of the best devs in the business. They have been so silent.

 

[viveks86]

I think it's wild that I've only ever seen them in a last gen game from 10 years ago.

Yeah quite a feat that they pulled off on the PS4. Assuming they can match the Intergalactic trailer in terms of tech, I think they are the only potential challengers to Cyberpunk other than Rockstar this gen for what they can squeeze out of consoles. Until then, Cyberpunk is still king on Pro.

In some clips shadows do indeed appear to be completely different, just like the picture you shared. Maybe only some footage have them enabled?
Would be strange if their PCSS solution works so perfectly in some occasions, and not really much in others.

PCSS is a (relatively) simple formula on top of the shadow map. It's going to depend on what distance and width the engine is considering the sun (or any other light source) to be. So may be more pronounced for a really tall tree, like a palm, but much less pronounced on objects/trees relatively closer to the ground. It may also be limited to just Sun shadows while the others (like a lamp) just produce uniform soft shadows. Did not spend any time on investigating that, so just some theories.

 

[GymWolf]

Horizon looks insane, I think in terms in textures and quality of assets its one of the best. Its impossible to find a bad texture or ugly asset in it

Oh dude, i wish it was true...

And people know how much i fanboy for horizon...

But yeah, the game punch WAY above its crossgen weight, no doubt.

 

[GymWolf]

Lol I did not see this one, I guess you edit it at the last moment

Nope, it was there from the beginning

But sometimes people tend to ignore stuff they see daily because it become white noise after a while

 

[coachmcguirk91]

Naughty Dog is fucking cooking.

Can't wait to see more Intergalactic.

Modern Naughty Dog developing a game that is not bound to reality has such crazy potential

 

[Luipadre]

Modern Naughty Dog developing a game that is not bound to reality has such crazy potential

yeah and i hope it wont be torture porn like tlou 2 was. I need some lighthearted action like the old UC games

 

[Bitstream]

Modern Naughty Dog developing a game that is not bound to reality has such crazy potential

The irony of getting Naughty Dog game updates in Arabic while homosexuality is criminalized across the middle east.

 

[Vick]

Man, can't wait for this game.
Pretty sure the last time I've said this about a Ubisoft game was at the end of 2013, for the OG Black Flag.

 

[Msamy]

Ubisoft anvil engine at it's best this gen0

 

[viveks86]

pTo simplify & dumb it down: this is your failed strawman attempt. Be better next time.

Dude, it was quite obvious that I was strawmaning. I even admitted it. No need to fixate on that. How am I supposed to take your post seriously if you misread the headline (by your own admission) AND ignored the actual content (24 GB vs 30 GB) of the article that you posted in the first place? So yes, I was indeed strawman-ing your argument, because your argument had nothing to do with the actual claims in the article you are challenging. Now that you are at least addressing the 20%, I will be better. I promise!

I think there's a bit of misreading here on my part, headline stated "less than 30%" and I based my comment only on 30% number, but how much "less" than 30%? We still don't have an inkling of how much PS6 will have, it's all guesstimates! I think 32GB makes sense here.

If you are taking any of the leaks to be true, 32 GB does not make sense for the bus width that was also leaked. That's why everyone went with 30 GB clamshell design as the final number. 160 bit, 10 modules, 3 GB each, 5 on each side. 30 GB is stated in the article as well and corroborated by Kepler. Not just my suggestion or guesstimate.

If it's 30GB like your 20% differential suggests here, the same concern applies. I don't think PS6 will be flying away with Path Tracing so Portable can just "turn it off" like you suggested, base PS6 will have extended use of RT.

Let's break that down. Do you agree that PS6 is capable of 1080 upscaled to 4K, path traced at 30 fps? Going by the advancements to ray tracing, that's a pretty conservative expectation. A 5070 TI can pull this off right now on RE Requiem. If the PS6 can do 10x RT of the base PS5, which seems to be the general consensus, this is a slam dunk. If you have been following research on ReSTIR PT, we may even get to 1080 60 fps with PT, but let's stay a little conservative for this argument.

The thing about PT is, the moment your engine can support it, you have already built everything needed to implement RTGI. So you can literally disable PT, still keep RTGI and not make disruptive changes to the game. PT support automatically ensures a wide range of scalability across devices. Look at how RE Requiem performs on Switch 2. Or even a non-PT title like Starwars Outlaws. Did the handhelds somehow hold back the high end PC? It didn't because so much engine scalability is available once RT and now PT are at play. And RE Requiem doesn't even have the most robust PT implementation. It's a bunch of spaghetti cobbled together if you looked under the hood in their GDC talk.

With just a 20% RAM difference, the handheld is way overprovisioned on RAM and RAM bandwidth, if you start scaling other game settings down (like PT, RT, textures etc). The only other remaining bottleneck is CPU. That is still a very valid concern. But very few games are CPU bound anyway. And one can hope future programming paradigms like GPU work graphs remove heavy dependencies on CPU.

Does that mean some shit optimized game like Dragon's Dogma 2 doesn't bring it to its knees? No. That will absolutely happen. But we can't use the exception to dismiss the rule. Most games should run just fine. Quarter the resolution, disable PT or any heavy RT, keep RTGI so devs don't need to go back to baked lightmaps, half the fps to 30 if CPU is ever a limit, and upscale with the latest PSSR.

None of those options are applicable for Series X and Series S. There's only so much you can do within the raster-only space other than disabling RT altogether. No AI upscaling while still expecting to connect to a 4K TV adds a lot of pressure on design choices. The PS6 handheld doesn't have those pressures, so it's not as catastrophic as you were claiming. They can literally get away with 480p with AI upscaling on a tiny screen. No need for doom and gloom just yet.

Ah, just disable path tracing. oh wait, you have no lighting now so devs are still forced to use old lighting and layer on PT additionally for the ps6. How will this not hold back the ps6.

See above

 

[TheRedRiders]

Ubisoft anvil engine at it's best this gen0

They really did strike the best balance between visuals and performance, especially on the PS5 Pro.

 

[SABRE220]

Why couldnt the entire game look like this lol. This looks next gen as fuck.

Did they use nanite in this section? That looks much more impressive in terms of geometric detail than the other areas.

 

[SABRE220]

Ubisoft anvil engine at it's best this gen0

Do you think this looks better than shadows?

 

[Msamy]

Do you think this looks better than shadows?

Yes, if you compare Promotional material for both black flag are far better, and we all know how shadows turns to be one of best looking titles this gen by the time of it's release ,also Black flag use upgraded anvil engine and from those videos they already shared it's looks better for me

 

[viveks86]

Do you think this looks better than shadows?

It's more stylized, but it clearly has a bit more going for it that Shadows. It's an upgrade for sure.