mavericktopgun
Member
GT was once known for quality 
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GT Sport - Nürburgring race in spectator mode
- Thread starter Loudninja
- Start date
travisbickle
Member
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Come on guys, it's not THAT bad. Although it certainly doesn't wow like you would expect a new GT game to do.
Maybe it's a lot better in "Neo mode".
Maybe it's a lot better in "Neo mode".
PdotMichael
Banned
Isn't it like the running gag here.
There are like 200 better racing games but none of them have something like a community on GAF. Even the Forza guys are forced to go to GT threads to talk about Forza.
I know. Sure it looks better side by side but it really doesn't look that much better. Go play even the best bit of Uncharted 3, look at Uncharted 4 and the difference is vast. The leap is massive visually. GTS just no..
GT always was the best looking racing game. On occasion it still is but this really looks more like GT6.5. It is simply not good enough. It's all the little details that could bring this to life, that other games this generation have started doing, and in GT it just looks so flat and dull, car movement is still too smooth and doesn't replicate the bumpiness that tightly sprung suspension brings to these racing cars. It all looks surprisingly arcadey to be honest. Car collisions look completely unbelievable etc etc.
Meh.
mavericktopgun
Member
Looking good for a PS2 title
test_account
XP-39C²
No one? :/
I sort of think he should. Give him an advisory figurehead role but get him out of actually developing these games. They've spent so much time on random offshoot ideas, some really esoteric stuff like the focus on photo mode (cos Kaz is really into his photography) and that GPS thing they made that a few people have used in real life. The games have been stagnating, always featuring similar careers and tuning options etc.
Admittedly GTS is a big departure from that formula and the FIA thing and esports does sound good to me, I just really don't trust them to pull it off and be as successful as they think it's going to be.
Meanwhile we're all just waiting for another mainline GT game that does everything a GT should do and with a level of polish we've not seen since GT4 in the series. Bring the feeling of driving cars on great tracks to life! As it is it feels cold, clinical, not always completely realistic in the way something like iRacing looks so close to real life in terms of car movement etc. Just do that with graphical flair and great sound and we will buy it in droves! As it is GT resembles a glitchy PC game, not the cream of the top of console racers.
I don't understand how the server-host delay has an influence in spectator mode.
I really don't like lag when I'm playing, but you can very well add a 200ms lag (or even more) in spectator mode so that you have a cache and can handle delays or high latency.
Besides that, the amount of data needed to update the position of 30-50 rigid bodies at 60fps isn't high, you don't *have to* send keyframes and interpolate between them. But even if you had to use keyframes, you can do it on a purely "backwards" fashion that don't involve prediction at all and no loss of data.
Was thinking this myself, surely spectator mode could operate slightly delayed allowing everything to iron itself out. I'd expect a touch of lag when actually playing the game myself but then even Rocket League with my ping under 30 and others up to 60 the amount of jumpiness in play is slight.
So you just ignored the point of my post and are reproaching me for not giving an exhaustive list of good and bad of P cars and GT? (I am not even going to argue about the car lists... or on 60fps: I was just givng examples of what SMS got together in a brand new series financed through kickstarter...which is a remarkable achievement)
I am talking about production value. basically you are comparing the most successful and wealthiest car franchise in the industry, 1st party and exclusive to the most powerful console,... to a brand new franchise made from scratch and that runs pretty well and Xbox One, PS4 and PC.
How can you be indulgent with PD and not with SMS ? Why defend such ovious shortcomings when PD has all they need to do so much better ? Why is the franchise loosing all its reputation year after year? Did I make this up?
You can preorder it on the Australian PS store. I think it is $79.
Risk Breaker
Member
Netcode, who does it work?
Cars going at 280 km/h is quite different from Rocket League gameplay, and you can still get rubberbanding there.
Also it's not about ping, it's about the tick/update rate, and updating at 60 Hz when you're doing 280 km/h is also probably not enough, especially when you take into account packet loss and latency fluctuation.
That said, spectator mode seems to be working at 30hz or so right now, and I do agree that they should target 120hz.
Also LOL at the people saying this looks worse than P Cars. And I'm not saying P Cars sucks or anything, but 60 FPS sims can only look so good.
The amount of trolling and hyperbole in recent GT threads is incredible, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Spectator mode is a completely different situation, though.
There's issues with netcode when you try to have two computers as synchronized as possible in realtime. Since there's transmission lag involved, you have to do tricky things to fill the blanks before the synchronization happen.
In spectator mode, you have a computer that send another computer all needed data to reconstruct the same results, without hard real-time requirements.
Stupid example: assuming you have enough bandwidth and enough processing power, the original console could encode a HD video stream and transmit it over the net. The receiver, using a cache to handle small network delays, will have a perfect reproduction of the original stream although a couple hundred milliseconds late.
Now, there's both the bandwidth and the computation power issues.
There's two solutions:
- send the *result* of the physical simulation running on the console that broadcast the race. The data throughput is low (since there's mostly rigid bodies involved, and a small number of it), 60Hz is enough since you'll just "draw" the scenes. You can always send body deformations at a lower rate.
- send the *input* and redo the physical simulation on the client console. That's trickier, since you have to send the inputs at the rate they're polled, and redo the simulation exactly with the same parameters (a different polling in GT3 simulation and replay gave me once a replay where, although I had won the race, the replay was showing my car stucked into a wall in the second corner)
I think they should go for the first solution, it's far safer, and the data throughput isn't that higher.
https://youtu.be/dGBgdXJGOts?t=962
The game should, at the very least, look as good at this in spectator mode. I've watched hundred of live iracing events and they don't look like the mess that was shown in the OP. Netcode blah, blah, blah.. I don't know the technical speak I'll admit, but this is not a a good showing.
I didn't compare it to any other games but now that you bring it up I do play mainly iRacing and Dirt Rally.
I played GT5 a few years ago, funnily enough it was got me into Sim Racing games. I was obviously let down by GT5 but started with iRacing after that.
It does look arcadey compared to iRacing. I've never played PCars; from what I've heard that isn't as much as a sim as iRacing is
Did you think GT5 was an arcade racer?
Frank Jaeger
Member
Looks floaty af
Some call it "simcade"
I can't really remember to be honest. I do know I wasn't really impressed with it and wasn't happy that I specifically bought a PS3 for it
Risk Breaker
Member
I think they're using something similar to the first one. It's just, on a road as bumpy as Nurburgring's at such high speeds, the interpolation can't predict movement correctly and you get position updates very different from the predicted position, maybe even at 30 hz (which was a standard tickrate for AAA MP games until recently) which accentuates it even more.
Again, I think they should up the tickrate and/or improve their interpolation, but this is just how netcode works. It doesn't reflect the handling of the game, which as Pudding has said (and he actually tried the game) is the least of the game's concerns.
Ah, that explains it then.
Go on
First, I doubt that even awful 60Hz interpolation of 30fps data can even show visible errors.
Second, a error of 1G over the acceleration would result in a 0.04 inch (1mm) error of position. Maybe there can be slight errors on wheels, but barring violent collisions between vehicles (and even with those, in facts), I really doubt you can make 1G+ errors on acceleration.
That being said, it's only that I don't understand why the spectator mode should be jerky, but I don't imply anything about the handling of the cars...
Risk Breaker
Member
Wasn't talking about you specifically, but other people implying spectator mode reflects the real gameplay.
If they are playing on a network that won't matter as I doubt they have code scaling for bandwidth and as I have already said this game is special in that the replay mode used for that race is designed as a mass broadcast. The less data they send the less chance their servers will meltdown driveclub style when millions login to watch the first race. Comparing to spectator modes in other games isn't fair because they aren't the same thing.
Also consider that we see cars moving everyday, our brains are very sensitive to their movement, like how it's very easy to spot someone walking with sight limp.
Now criticise the quality of the stream feeds, that is valid but you simply can't judge physics from them. When actually playing the game you never see cars move like that*. I saw really natural looking spins and car movement. Looking forward to spending more time with the game.
Actually an interesting note about the physics. In Tokyo and I am guessing many other parts of the world we have this high grip red paint stuff on sections of road to make it safer. Its really grippy like sandpaper. These sections are also present in the Tokyo GTS track but I haven't driven on that yet. However you can see from the videos that these sections of track actually do have the increased grip that their real life counterparts have. Players hit them and the tyre squeal stops and the understeer goes away. Very cool, I never though PD would go to that detail in track surface.
*actually I did see cars move like that but only with assists on and then only with VGT cars. To that I say should a made up car with made up computer assists move like that? Know knows.
potatohead
Member
I hope we get temperature changes in the road surface too, like when lots of cars pass over them or it gets heated by the Sun, and it affects the driving too, that would be cool. I know one game demo'd it recently on PC can't remember which one.
Audioboxer
Member
6 months for PD is like 5 days in real time. Can't say I'm expecting too much to change, sadly. They should just have waited till fall 2017/Q1 2018 and put out GT7.
A Driveclub 2 in the meantime would have been good. Sony gonna Sony. PD gonna PD.
A Driveclub 2 in the meantime would have been good. Sony gonna Sony. PD gonna PD.
UpUpDownDown
Member
Looks great.
I see the usual suspects with their smear campaign but this looks to actually do something different with online racing. Love all the regulations and the reply feed presentation with cuts are great. I could actually watch this.
Hopefully this finally elevates online racing to something other then bumpercars. Also having leagues and introducing driving etiquette (in game) was way over due.
I see the usual suspects with their smear campaign but this looks to actually do something different with online racing. Love all the regulations and the reply feed presentation with cuts are great. I could actually watch this.
Hopefully this finally elevates online racing to something other then bumpercars. Also having leagues and introducing driving etiquette (in game) was way over due.
When you control the client, it seems to me that it's logical using a peer-to-peer approach to increase the number of possible clients without impacting the upload of the original source.
You have to handle re-routing/disconnections, but that's something that has been studied and a problem with available solutions.
I definitively don't, it's just I'm not fond of the way they handle this kind of non-interactive broadcasting.
It's probably fine in most cases, but if you make that a real and important feature, I'd say you should be able to get a better result.
I don't think you can design a (semi)-realistic racing game without modelling some physics. There's a direct link between the torque on the wheel axis, the force of the suspension on the wheel and the force between the wheel and the road.
The increase grip is just a coefficient change, it's nice to have, but it doesn't seem the hardest thing to do.
UpUpDownDown
Member
That's been filtered to hell and back. Your not actually seeing all the inputs the divers make so the replay appears smoother...but it's also fucking docile.
I seriously question how many races you've seen if you call that boring shit driving, real. Lol
The right answer is a little bit from column A and a little from column B.
Ha what? The reveal has gotten negative attention pretty much everywhere on the internet.
Except I'm not being indulgent with SMS or PD nor defending anything that may be wrong with either. Nor underplaying what SMS achieved. Believe it or not I'm not here to drag anyone through the mud that may be your intention not mine. Somebody merely said this
And I said "this looks better than it I think, I've posted videos". You were so hell bent on dragging GTS through the mud and anyone who defends it you misunderstood me completely suggesting I wasn't praising Pcars enough (I have a lot of love for PCars), or saying I should be hating GTS more and oddly started mentioning things I would consider hyperbolic
And went on to mention things like 60fps and lower number of cars and "plenty of tracks". To me that seemed like you had no idea what GT is like or what new things PCars even offered when you missed it's real biggest achievement to then going on to mention things that GT has.
Also don't let kickstarter fool you into thinking you can't have a game with tremendous production value just look at Star Citizen. PCars raised a good amount of money and even got publisher backing in the end. i have a lot of love for PCars so don't misunderstand my point.
Megawarrior
Member
That was really fun to watch. Lmao @ the finish.
You assume that the spectator mode is looking at a fully resolved set of positional data (like watching a local race vs CPU). Online multiplayer involving many clients is not straight forward because altering the actual simulation for each client's car is not an option (imagine your car doing weird things because the server corrects your own position). As long as there is no interaction between the cars and it is only synchronization, everything is fine. As soon as interactions like collisions are happening, latency will kill any accurate simulation of these events as everyone is constantly moving further along in real time. This is where prediction comes in handy but good prediction means having to actually simulate every connected client properly. PD never simulated anything besides the players own car properly in GT5/6.
I think the main problem for GTS is that PD are still using P2P for the actual races instead of dedicated servers. They are probably cutting many corners to reduce load for the host as they did in GT5 and 6 - including the simplified simulation of other client's cars. Using this very inconsistent approximation for a spectator client leads to the unflattering results with janky movements that are constantly corrected without properly reflecting their clients physics simulations.
Absolutely agree. I am not defending the lacking technical aspects of the spectator mode in GTS as shown so far. AC, RaceRoom, and iRacing demonstrate how good online multiplayer replays can look like if everyone is using a decent connection. They still fail when confronted with high latencies. My initial comment was a reply to the posts drawing conclusions about the handling or physics of the game.
I think all the complaints really show how many different kinds of GT players there are. A lot of people prioritize graphics, car lists, single player, etc or any combination of the above over cleanly raced competitive online play. GT Sport appears to be ignoring a lot of things that people find important while focusing on what is in my opinion a pretty niche market. It'll be interesting to see how things play out.
Seems to be going the PC sim route more than anything..bad decision IMO.
The vocal crowd ready to tear apart every new game release on its graphics to the point of slut shaming the developers is such a negative side of the gaming community on forums. Basically, if you dont match all the features from previously released games and dont build on the graphics bar set by others you are shit and deserve no sales.
TheExecutive
Member
The game LOOKS like garbage. It is what we are being shown and all we have to go on. If we aren't supposed to comment on what we are shown then shut the damn thread down because there is nothing to discuss.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Spectator mode done right. I don't care if they 'play back' the race from a small buffer, ironing out the latency spikes, this is how spectator mode should look in 2016.
