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[Willypiggy]

Fixed it, specifically to spark a debate. Sticking to the concealed weapon permits....I'm really sick and tired of people talking about "protection" when there's rarely if ever a reason or cause to pull out a gun and threaten to, or follow through on that threat, to KILL (in all likelihood) someone.

Unless everyone wants to be a hero. And if you think carrying a gun gives you the ability to capitalize on that moment and be a hero...then you're not carrying it for personal protection, are you?

In 2011 there were 83,425 forcible rapes, 354,396 robberies, 751,131 cases of aggravated assault, 2,188,005 cases of Burglary and overall 1,203,564 cases of Violent crime in the United States. I've heard countless stories of people walking home at night and being attacked, I live in the UK and on my short street (maybe 50 houses) 5 or 6 cars have been stolen in the past few years alone, one of which the thief broke into the house and put a gun to my neighbors head to get the keys, people have tried to get into houses owned by my family, even after seeing they were awake they still kept trying - the thing that scared them off was a shotgun being pointed at them.

 

[diehard]

Crazed paranoia is a defining feature of the anti-gun crowd.

fixed that for you.

 

[Dead Man]

Yes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...2288-59b9-11e2-88d0-c4cf65c3ad15_story_4.html

That is not evidence of anything besides the NRA being crazy. Not all gun enthusiasts. Unless by gun enthusiasts you mean crazy gun people.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Yes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...2288-59b9-11e2-88d0-c4cf65c3ad15_story_4.html

Because to be a gun enthusiast requires you to be a NRA crazy?

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

no

Don't worry he just likes making blanket statements in most of the threads he posts in. Jut ignore him.

 

[Omegasquash]

Nice circular argument you have presented. I think it is quite possible for someone to want a gun for protection, and recognise that it will probably never be needed, and also to be happy about that fact.

I'm talking about concealed carry. "I've got a gun....JUST IN CASE." If it makes you feel like a big person looking to "protect" yourself or your own, you're sorely mistaken. There's no need for anyone to have that in public. None, really.

Keep it at home, sure. Keep it in your nightstand loaded for all I care. Your home, your castle, your rules. Public is a different situation and outside of extraordinary circumstances (and I mean REALLY extraordinary), you will NEVER, EVER need a gun when you're going to Wal-Mart. It's my (like) opinion (man) that "want" should not factor into the equation when it comes down to the ability to take a life. If you feel you need protection in public, call the cops.

Again, all this is my opinion, but I see concealed carry in a civilized society akin to stuffing a sock in your pants.

 

[Dude Abides]

That is not evidence of anything besides the NRA being crazy. Not all gun enthusiasts. Unless by gun enthusiasts you mean crazy gun people.

The NRA is the face of the movement.

 

[GungHo]

The NRA is the face of the movement.

For the record: "Fuck the NRA."

Hmm, looks like I still own guns.

What now?

 

[Seanspeed]

There's nothing crazy about wanting to have personal protection.

It is crazy when a lot of it is just based on paranoia.

The problem is like the thread title says - the US is gun crazy. Its a freakin epidemic and to people here, they get this terrifying notion that its normal. People wonder why gun crime is so bad here compared to other first world countries and thats it right there - we are gun crazy. There's guns everywhere. The more guns in normal, everyday people's hands, the more that get turned over to the street with extreme ease. No having to deal with the costs and risks associated with black markets or anything. Its too easy.

 

[Dead Man]

I'm talking about concealed carry. "I've got a gun....JUST IN CASE." If it makes you feel like a big person looking to "protect" yourself or your own, you're sorely mistaken. There's no need for anyone to have that in public. None, really.

Keep it at home, sure. Keep it in your nightstand loaded for all I care. Your home, your castle, your rules. Public is a different situation and outside of extraordinary circumstances (and I mean REALLY extraordinary), you will NEVER, EVER need a gun when you're going to Wal-Mart. It's my (like) opinion (man) that "want" should not factor into the equation when it comes down to the ability to take a life. If you feel you need protection in public, call the cops.

Again, all this is my opinion, but I see concealed carry in a civilized society akin to stuffing a sock in your pants.

But that is still a circular argument. You are ascribing motivations then using that to say it is wrong. With that logic, insurance would be stupid to get. 'Just in case' is not a bad reason to do something. 'Just in case and I hope I get to do something so I feel like tough shit' is a bad reason to do something.

The NRA is the face of the movement.

It is A face of A movement. It is not the only group nor theirs the only position.

For the record: "Fuck the NRA."

Hmm, looks like I still own guns.

What now?

Apparently you don't exist.

 

[squidyj]

You're making the assumption that I or any other CCW holder would pull our weapon for any other reason than to protect ourselves and/or our families. If you think "being a hero" is the intent or purpose of having a CCW you don't need to have one. So you might want to try another angle.

they would they could, they already did.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Because to be a gun enthusiast requires you to be a NRA crazy?

There are 4 million NRA members. I'll be honest, yup...I'm a member. But the VAST overwhelming majority of gun owners in America aren't NRA members. Hell, most gun owners aren't "enthusiasts". They get a gun. Do a little target shooting to familiarize themselves and that's it. The gun sits in a safe/lockbox/closet for some time.

This notion of attempting to use the NRA as their scapegoat for gun violence is all types of wrong. I mean, I know it makes for a good soundbyte to rail against the horrible gun manufacturers but one could only believe that if they assumed the device used was the evil and not the person for misusing the device. I dunno, I guess it's just a different view on it.

 

[Dude Abides]

For the record: "Fuck the NRA."

Hmm, looks like I still own guns.

What now?

Nothing now. The gun enthusiast movement remains dominated by black helicopter types. That you happen to own guns does nothing to change that simple fact about the world.

It is A face of A movement. It is not the only group nor theirs the only position.

Is that so? So how many members does "Gun Owners for Reasonable Solutions" have? Does it or something like it even exist? How much do they take in in yearly contributions?

 

[Omegasquash]

In 2011 there were 83,425 forcible rapes, 354,396 robberies, 751,131 cases of aggravated assault, 2,188,005 cases of Burglary and overall 1,203,564 cases of Violent crime in the United States. I've heard countless stories of people walking home at night and being attacked, I live in the UK and on my short street (maybe 50 houses) 5 or 6 cars have been stolen in the past few years alone, one of which the thief broke into the house and put a gun to my neighbors head to get the keys, people have tried to get into houses owned by my family, even after seeing they were awake they still kept trying - the thing that scared them off was a shotgun being pointed at them.

Forcible rape, yup. Robberies, yup. Burglary...maybe (since burglary involves breaking in and I'd bet that far and away most of those crimes took place when the owner wasn't home), aggravated assault, you bet, and other violent crime, most likely.

What exactly would having a concealed gun do to STOP those crimes from happening? I'd venture that having a plain sight weapon would do worlds more than something hidden. And we agree about having a gun in a home...I just wrote that post a little later on.

 

[Sub_Level]

My friend works at a sports place and says good luck getting an AR-15. All dem orders.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

My friend works at a sports place and says good luck getting an AR-15. All dem orders.

Real talk. Been like that for months. Shit, I had trouble finding .22lr ammo.

 

[GungHo]

Real talk. Been like that for months. Shit, I had trouble finding .22lr ammo.

Ammunition in general has been crazy for a few years with the hoarders (note, this is where I kind of understand Dude Abides' broad brush about the crazies, though I find it tiresome to be sucked in with the broad brush), the military/LEO's own stockpiling, and what I suspect (but obviously cannot prove) is a concerted effort by the manufacturers to keep prices high by limiting supply.

 

[Acorn]

Sounds like gun stores are making a killing.

(No pun intended..seriously)

 

[Tamanon]

Nothing strange about it. There's been a very open push for radical gun control and CC permits don't go up in cost with demand unlike actual firearms have. Now's the worst time to buy a firearm, but the probably the best time to get a CC permit.

What's the "radical" gun control being pushed openly for? All I've seen is work around the edges of the current system.

 

[Omegasquash]

But that is still a circular argument. You are ascribing motivations then using that to say it is wrong. With that logic, insurance would be stupid to get. 'Just in case' is not a bad reason to do something. 'Just in case and I hope I get to do something so I feel like tough shit' is a bad reason to do something.

Then what's the logic behind concealed carry, specifically? That's ALL I'm talking about here. I don't see a reason for John Q. Public to have a gun stashed in their jacket or whatever as being OK simply because it makes you feel safe.

And insurance is a false equivocation. You're much more likely to get into a fender bender or any other accident than be involved in a life threatening situation where it's kill, use the threat of lethal force, or be killed. And you WILL need health insurance at some point in your life (which is why I'm all about universal health care...no need to buy it because it's covered).

I'm saying that the motivations for a citizen to want to carry a concealed weapon are wrong.

For the record, I wish I could have a gun in my house (my wife is 100% against it, and we have kids which makes the debate non-existent). I was raised around them and owned (if you can call it that) one when I was 8 years old. I'd love to hunt, and have permits that allow me to carry that weapon in my car because I'm a hunter with a license to hunt in this season or that.

 

[apesh1t]

I've never fired a gun in my 32 year life, and have only seen a gun out in the wild once. I have a friend who writes for Guns.com and is into them, solely for novelty purposes. It's completely possible to be into guns and simply enjoy the mechanics of them without having to kill or hunt with them.

That being said, I am terrified of the US without gun laws. Not only would the old "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns" become a reality, but it would give the corrupt police force even more control. We basically live in terror of our police force/government and if they are the sole entities with guns they will out right turn this into a police state (or even more so). While tighter gun laws are needed, I still don't think out right banning them is the thing to do.

I didn't watch the Vice thing, but who ever said that we can buy guns in supermarkets is pretty much untrue. I've lived in Detroit, California, South Carolina and now Massachusetts, and I have never ever seen such a thing. I've never even seen guns outside of a dedicated ammunition store.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Then what's the logic behind concealed carry, specifically? That's ALL I'm talking about here. I don't see a reason for John Q. Public to have a gun stashed in their jacket or whatever as being OK simply because it makes you feel safe.

The logic is that the right to self defense is pretty useless without the means to self defense. Not everyone in all situations is going to have the time and ability to:

a) Call the cops
b) Remove themselves from the situation
c) Run

While it may not happen often enough to justify carrying in your opinion, there have been many many times where someone carrying stopped a crime.

 

[Willypiggy]

Forcible rape, yup. Robberies, yup. Burglary...maybe (since burglary involves breaking in and I'd bet that far and away most of those crimes took place when the owner wasn't home), aggravated assault, you bet, and other violent crime, most likely.

What exactly would having a concealed gun do to STOP those crimes from happening? I'd venture that having a plain sight weapon would do worlds more than something hidden. And we agree about having a gun in a home...I just wrote that post a little later on.

The idea of a CCW is that you don't know if the person is carrying, someone attempts to rape/rob/whatever and you draw on them, hopefully forcing them to stop and get down and wait for the police arrive or even get them to run away. If that person was OC then the attacker might simply pick another target or make a move for the firearm.

I have a friend who lives in Detroit, his gf had to stay late at work so he walked to her work because he didn't feel comfortable with her walking home alone and taxis didn't tend to pick people up in that neighborhood. They're walking home when suddenly someone shouts then, they turn around and there's 4 black guys about 20 meters behind them, he nudges his girlfriend ahead and ignores them, they start moving towards him faster and shouting at him to stop so he turns around and pulls his gun out. 3 of them take off and one keeps walking closer and pulls out a knife, before he could get too close my friends shoots him in the chest. He then calls the police, waits until he hears sirens, unloads his gun and puts it on the floor. The police come, arrest him and an ambulance takes the guy to hospital, they drop his girlfriend off at home and a few hours later he's told the guy died and he's out of the police station. Now if he hadn't shot that man, things could have been very different. On the one hand you could say that they might have simply been mugged but it's also possible they could have both been stabbed and killed, or worse, they could have raped her and then killed her. If he had called the police straight away and wasn't armed then what do you think the outcome would have been? They had no time to respond, when he called them after the shooting it was about 2-3 minutes until they got to him and the guy he shot bled out. It sucks that other guy died but if he hadn't started something or he had walked away as soon as the gun was pulled then it would have been a different outcome. That's a primary example of why so many people feel the need to have a CCW, it's there in case you ever need it, you hope you don't but someday you might.

 

[GungHo]

I didn't watch the Vice thing, but who ever said that we can buy guns in supermarkets is pretty much untrue.

Two things on this:
1) Walmart used to sell guns. They still might in more rural locations. I know they don't in urban locations.

2) The example they mention in the OP isn't buying the gun in the supermarket. It's them arranging a purchase on line and doing a private trade in the parking lot. This is legal. It is the "gun show loophole", which is a stupid term, because it has nothing to do with gun shows. It means that you can do private, face to face trades of firearms without need of a transferral form from a Federal Firearms Licensee or a NICS background check. By law, you're supposed to "know" whether or not the guy is eligible to buy a gun for it to be a legal deal, but if he misrepresents himself, he misrepresents himself. It's called the "gun show loophole" because people do this at gun shows, but it can really be in your house, on the street, in a parking lot... anywhere it's legal to transport a firearm.

 

[Tamanon]

Walmarts out here in North Carolina still sell guns.

Hell, it's even on their website.

http://www.walmart.com/browse/hunti...=cat4155-env458156-moduleB120712-lLinkFC1Guns

 

[R2D4]

Yeah, the recent gun craze in the US has made me not want to visit or go vacation there anymore.

And gun owners are the paranoid ones?

 

[apesh1t]

Just to chime in a little bit:

The US police force isn't like the rest of the free world's police. They are not here to serve and protect, they serve their own interest and corruption. Watch police brutality videos on Youtube most come from the US. I can't speak for all americans but I simply don't trust them.

Protecting yourselves is sometimes the only options. If someone pulls a gun on you, robs you you then call the police they show up 20 minutes later and nothing happens. Same person tries to rob you, you pull your weapon out in self defense, matter over.

 

[The Technomancer]

So where do the statistics showing that pulling out a gun in a confrontation actually increases the likelihood of the carrier getting injured come into this debate? Or don't they?

 

[Divvy]

And gun owners are the paranoid ones?

It's not like I think people are going to pull out their guns randomly and start shooting. I just don't find being in a place where people feel it's necessary to carry around firearms for protection appealing.

 

[Tamanon]

Just to chime in a little bit:

The US police force isn't like the rest of the free world's police. They are not here to serve and protect, they serve their own interest and corruption. Watch police brutality videos on Youtube most come from the US. I can't speak for all americans but I simply don't trust them.

Protecting yourselves is sometimes the only options. If someone pulls a gun on you, robs you you then call the police they show up 20 minutes later and nothing happens. Same person tries to rob you, you pull your weapon out in self defense, matter over.

And people wonder where the paranoid descriptor comes from!

 

[R2D4]

It's not like I think people are going to pull out their guns randomly and start shooting. I just don't find being in a place where people feel it's necessary to carry around firearms for protection appealing.

So you wouldn't step foot in a police station?

 

[Divvy]

So you wouldn't step foot in a police station?

How is that the same thing at all? Besides I wouldn't go to a police station unless I needed to, I'm not choosing to go there for fun.

 

[Willypiggy]

So where do the statistics showing that pulling out a gun in a confrontation actually increases the likelihood of the carrier getting injured come into this debate? Or don't they?

 

[R2D4]

How is that the same thing at all? Besides I wouldn't go to a police station unless I needed to, I'm not choosing to go there for fun.

Because there is no difference between a cop with a gun and your standard concealed weapon permit holder. Neither one is going to start shooting you if you walk by them. You are being paranoid. You automatically relate guns with murderers and you getting shot. Stop worrying so much.

 

[inky]

but if obama takes our guns, who's going to protect us from the rapists, atheists and terrorists?

Don't forget the government. That's one of the most used up excuses reasons too.

 

[Vilix]

Do you shoot the ww2 weapons? Or are they mostly antiques?

The WW2 weapons I shoot are considered antiques. But all are completely functional and in really good shape. And, yes, I use them for sport shooting.

 

[Last Visible Dog]

I'm from the UK, and I'm more than happy to give up my right to own a firearm for self defence if doing so makes it REALLY difficult for Psychos, kids, or just normal people who've lost it (we've all done it) to have easy access to such massive lethal force.

 

[Vilix]

Crazed paranoia is a defining feature of the gun enthusiast crowd.

My neuro psychiatrist would say other wise.

 

[The Technomancer]

Forgive me if I don't necessarily trust a source called GunFacts.info

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ncreases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

And thats not even touching that even if you keep a gun in the home they're more likely to die from gun homicide:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Don't forget the government. That's one of the most used up excuses reasons too.

I know you may find this hard to believe but there are people that realize government is absolutely necessary but at the same time is ultimately self serving and not always to be trusted.

One needs only to read a history book to see examples of the US government doing horrible things to its own people. Does that really make someone that doesn't have a blind trust in government a paranoid whacko these days?

 

[Divvy]

Because there is no difference between a cop with a gun and your standard concealed weapon permit holder. Neither one is going to start shooting you if you walk by them. You are being paranoid. You automatically relate guns with murderers and you getting shot. Stop worrying so much.

There is a huge difference between a cop and a regular citizen. One's an occupation that necessitates carrying weapons, the other is not. I already said I don't believe people are just going to start shooting for no reason, I said this atmosphere of fear is not an environment that I am really very interested in being in.

 

[Omegasquash]

The logic is that the right to self defense is pretty useless without the means to self defense. Not everyone in all situations is going to have the time and ability to:

a) Call the cops
b) Remove themselves from the situation
c) Run

While it may not happen often enough to justify carrying in your opinion, there have been many many times where someone carrying stopped a crime.

Then why not learn self defense, or carry a pen-knife? Or pepper spray? Those are different options with (somewhat wildly) different effects that are just as effective (in close quarters, for sure). Why carry a GUN THAT NO ONE CAN SEE when the other options don't carry nearly the risk?

The idea of a CCW is that you don't know if the person is carrying, someone attempts to rape/rob/whatever and you draw on them, hopefully forcing them to stop and get down and wait for the police arrive or even get them to run away. If that person was OC then the attacker might simply pick another target or make a move for the firearm.

In the first sentence that carrier is choosing to be a hero, and I talked about that before...it's not to be a protector, it's self-serving and the ability to kill shouldn't be self serving. At least not in the USA in 2013. The second sentence is a much better argument...making a move for a firearm is a really dumb move and arguably much crazier than a bad person getting a concealed weapons permit, however.

I acknowledge the example of your friend (and send my sympathies) but I'd argue that if your friend had an open weapon there's a better chance that they wouldn't have been assaulted in the first place. I'd also caution against highlighting the race of the assailants in your example. Doesn't matter about their skin color.

 

[Coffee Dog]

So where do the statistics showing that pulling out a gun in a confrontation actually increases the likelihood of the carrier getting injured come into this debate? Or don't they?

I'm on my phone so I can't link it at the moment but the American journal of public health did a study in 2009 that showed gun users had about 4x the chance of getting shot.

Guns for self defence is a myth.

 

[Yoritomo]

Forgive me if I don't necessarily trust a source called GunFacts.info

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ncreases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html



And thats not even touching that even if you keep a gun in the home they're more likely to die from gun homicide:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

I like that you have to use gun homicide to redefine homicide and narrow the statistical base. Very telling. Even low estimates put defensive gun use at around 200,000 per year. Most without any injury.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Then why not learn self defense, or carry a pen-knife? Or pepper spray? Those are different options with (somewhat wildly) different effects that are just as effective (in close quarters, for sure). Why carry a GUN THAT NO ONE CAN SEE when the other options don't carry nearly the risk?

Those are all valid options. So it walking assertively. That's what I do. I'm a pretty intimidating looking dude when I want to be and generally thieves are desperate cowards and won't take on someone that looks like he can handle himself. Nevermind that I love Sailor Moon and Gummy Bears, they don't know that

But the choice for self defense is just that: A choice. In many places someone is free to choose if they want to learn karate, or carry a pen-knife or pepper spray. And many many people do utilize those options. However it's not for everyone.

In the first sentence that carrier is choosing to be a hero, and I talked about that before...it's not to be a protector, it's self-serving and the ability to kill shouldn't be self serving. At least not in the USA in 2013. The second sentence is a much better argument...making a move for a firearm is a really dumb move and arguably much crazier than a bad person getting a concealed weapons permit, however.

Depends on the situation. If someone is approaching you with a weapon I'd argue you have a natural right to protect yourself. You don't stop the agressor by disarming the victim.

I acknowledge the example of your friend (and send my sympathies) but I'd argue that if your friend had an open weapon there's a better chance that they wouldn't have been assaulted in the first place. I'd also caution against highlighting the race of the assailants in your example. Doesn't matter about their skin color.

Agree about the race. But open carry? Last time I discussed that here the general consensus was that it made everyone that doesn't carry "uncomfortable".

 

[The Technomancer]

I like that you have to use gun homicide to redefine homicide and narrow the statistical base. Very telling. Even low estimates put defensive gun use at around 200,000 per year. Most without any injury.

What? I didn't even refer to the line in the writeup that referred to homicide in general. Thanks for clicking it but it wasn't part of my argument.

And thats not the point. The point is that statistically the safer option is not to carry.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

lol no shit. Amazing detective work.

 

[Violet_0]

at least the number of firearm accidents will decrease when there are more guns around

 

[The Technomancer]

Depends on the situation. If someone is approaching you with a weapon I'd argue you have a natural right to protect yourself. You don't stop the agressor by disarming the victim.

But you do! This is where it gets counterintuitive but they've looked at this (to the best of their ability without the government able to really research this stuff). If an armed person confronts you and you pull a weapon to defend yourself your chances of getting shot just went up

 

[Bodacious]

I'm talking about concealed carry. "I've got a gun....JUST IN CASE." If it makes you feel like a big person looking to "protect" yourself or your own, you're sorely mistaken. There's no need for anyone to have that in public. None, really.

Keep it at home, sure. Keep it in your nightstand loaded for all I care. Your home, your castle, your rules. Public is a different situation and outside of extraordinary circumstances (and I mean REALLY extraordinary), you will NEVER, EVER need a gun when you're going to Wal-Mart. It's my (like) opinion (man) that "want" should not factor into the equation when it comes down to the ability to take a life. If you feel you need protection in public, call the cops.

Again, all this is my opinion, but I see concealed carry in a civilized society akin to stuffing a sock in your pants.

That's why the cops only bother to put a gun in their holster when they're actually responding to a crime in progress, right?