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[BattleMonkey]

 

[Raxel]

.

 

[BattleMonkey]

*pew pew* we need to get out of here *pew pew*
*boo*
*pew pew pew* die mother fucker! *pew pew pew*
I'm gonna cut this guys head to take it back for identification!
*pew pew pew* Dude that's not cool. *pew pew*
You're right, lets just kill every last fucker out here and respect their beliefs
*pew pew*

 

[RiskyChris]

This is a perfectly well reasoned argument when applied to a conventional form of authority. However do some research and you'll realise Afghanistan has always been like this prior to the introduction of Islam and prior to the Taliban. Brutality is the only language they understand.

Brutality is all they understand, therefore let's be as brutal as possible.

*ignores any measure of what consequences our actions has*

*pew pew* we need to get out of here *pew pew*
*boo*
*pew pew pew* die mother fucker! *pew pew pew*
I'm gonna cut this guys head to take it back for identification!
*pew pew pew* Dude that's not cool. *pew pew*
You're right, lets just kill every last fucker out here and respect their beliefs
*pew pew*

*pew pew* the sound of the point blasting through your temples

 

[Jex]

However do some research and you'll realise Afghanistan has always been like this prior to the introduction of Islam and prior to the Taliban. Brutality is the only language they understand.

Oh man, I hear that if you look back in time most countries started out inherently brutal!

Weirdly, things changed at some point.

 

[BattleMonkey]

*pew pew* the sound of the point blasting through your temples

You never had a point in the first place and completely have deviated from the OP, as usual

 

[RiskyChris]

You never had a point in the first place and completely have deviated from the OP, as usual

What, my point that we should minimize psychological damage to our cause?

Yea, not a point. Maybe I should've phrased it in a laughable little play?

 

[Flo_Evans]

Certainly.

Although this thread has generally ended up as "What kind of conduct would we countenance as necessary to "win" difficult wars?" which is pretty off the topic in itself.

Ok, lets look at WW2 then. By most accounts that is the last war we actually "won".

We had to carpet bomb germany and drop a nuke on japan to get them to surrender. Excessive force and brutality.

Of course I can already predict the responses. Bubububu those where conventional wars! Afghanistan is different! It's only different because we are choosing not to fight it in a normal way. We are trying to use our military as police and not soldiers. Rather ineffectively by the progress (regression more accurately) that we have made.

To win difficult wars requires difficult choices. Making friends is not working. I say lets break their will to fight. Now, this will be difficult and require the killing of most of the population. But we can break them. We just don't want to. And maybe we shouldn't. So what are our options. Continue to do the same thing and expect different results? Or ramp up the intensity? Or just leave.

I would rather leave than do what it takes to subdue the people of afghanistan. You cannot install a strong central democratic government in such a place, the people have to rise up against the warlords themselves. Hard to do when every tribe their hates their neighbors. But again, not my problem really.

 

[BattleMonkey]

What, my point that we should minimize psychological damage to our cause?

Yea, not a point. Maybe I should've phrased it in a laughable little play?

I never was talking about whatever nonsensical point you were making in the first place, but I guess this whole conversation has turned to revolve around your views now?

 

[RiskyChris]

I never was talking about whatever nonsensical point you were making in the first place, but I guess this whole conversation has turned to revolve around your views now?

Well you were certainly talking about something, and failing to provide any content in the process.

Then, when I called out your dumb reduction of the events, you brought the spotlight onto me and my points. So like, you made the conversation about my views.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Well you were certainly talking about something, and failing to provide any content in the process.

Never said I was, but sure bugs you as you obviously didn't like what I posted. Looking back at the thread and what you have posted, yea obviously I can see why you didn't like it :lol

 

[fizzelopeguss]

And that is why we should nuke them!

Fuck nukes, gather the western worlds top scientists together for another manhattan style project to end our dependance on oil. And laugh as the saudi kings and crown princes come crashing down.

uh? Of course they do. The crusades are an incredibly touchy subject even for many moderate Muslims who oppose terrorism,

Then they need to learn their history, the crusades were a reactionary war to hundreds of years of islamic invasion and brutality of christian nations. The fact the constantly warring european kingdoms united for a brief moment (first the crusades, and again for the siege of vienna) says how serious the situation was.

 

[Mudkips]

Do you think Coalition soldiers should decide what is appropriate based on the actions the Taliban take? Or do you think the standards governing our troops ought to be a little higher?

Soldiers always decide what action is appropriate based on the actions of the enemy.
Usually those decisions are in compliance with their standing orders, but sometimes, they're not.
Shit goes wrong with or without following orders.
Shit gets unpleasant with or without following orders.

This is war. Soldiers are not robots. And I'm glad they're not.

 

[Kinitari]

Ok, lets look at WW2 then. By most accounts that is the last war we actually "won".

We had to carpet bomb germany and drop a nuke on japan to get them to surrender. Excessive force and brutality.

Of course I can already predict the responses. Bubububu those where conventional wars! Afghanistan is different! It's only different because we are choosing not to fight it in a normal way. We are trying to use our military as police and not soldiers. Rather ineffectively by the progress (regression more accurately) that we have made.

To win difficult wars requires difficult choices. Making friends is not working. I say lets break their will to fight. Now, this will be difficult and require the killing of most of the population. But we can break them. We just don't want to. And maybe we shouldn't. So what are our options. Continue to do the same thing and expect different results? Or ramp up the intensity? Or just leave.

I would rather leave than do what it takes to subdue the people of afghanistan. You cannot install a strong central democratic government in such a place, the people have to rise up against the warlords themselves. Hard to do when every tribe their hates their neighbors. But again, not my problem really.

This war absolutely will not be won by destroying the country - we aren't fighting Afghanistan or Iraq. We are fighting an ideology that has some people currently residing in Afghanistan and Iraq - if we bomb them, the ideology will find roots somewhere else, this isn't complicated. Excessive violence won't work in this situation short of killing Muslims on site, which would in turn spark something akin to a rebel alliance.

Making friends is not working because we aren't making friends, we have disturbed the lives of people, some of whom already had some fucked up lives. We had needlessly invaded countries and needlessly killed thousands of innocents. Not cutting off someones head isn't going to all of a sudden make people like us. But that doesn't mean that killing indiscriminately is the answer, there is absolutely no way that shit will work.

Making friends is pulling the fuck out, setting up some sort of international education program and brainwashing and bribing the fuck out them.

 

[Raxel]

.

 

[RiskyChris]

I wasn't aware Afghanistan made any significant social advances since the Mughal empire. Without the war, do you honestly believe that women would have any rights under the Taliban? Do you think non-violent resistance would work against the likes of Hitler, Stalin or Ishii (unit 731)? Surely you can't be that naive.

Definition of irrelevance.

 

[Flo_Evans]

This war absolutely will not be won by destroying the country - we aren't fighting Afghanistan or Iraq. We are fighting an ideology that has some people currently residing in Afghanistan and Iraq - if we bomb them, the ideology will find roots somewhere else, this isn't complicated. Excessive violence won't work in this situation short of killing Muslims on site, which would in turn spark something akin to a rebel alliance.

Making friends is not working because we aren't making friends, we have disturbed the lives of people, some of whom already had some fucked up lives. We had needlessly invaded countries and needlessly killed thousands of innocents. Not cutting off someones head isn't going to all of a sudden make people like us. But that doesn't mean that killing indiscriminately is the answer, there is absolutely no way that shit will work.

Making friends is pulling the fuck out, setting up some sort of international education program and brainwashing and bribing the fuck out them.

Well I disagree, thankfully my plan of total annihilation will not ever be carried out. If we make it clear in no uncertain terms that if we even suspect terrorists are hiding in your village that it will be burned to the ground it would be very hard for these people to re-orginize. They may scatter and pop up other places, but guess what? Burn them to the ground too. Eventually they will get the message that we will do whatever it takes, wherever they hide, and go back to dirt farming or whatever they do.

We started to do this in Vietnam but when US citizens heard about it they were not to happy. Returning soldiers where spit on and called baby killers. Justifiably in most cases. Americans simply can not stomach what it takes to end this shit.

Really no matter what we do there will always be people that hate us. I can understand their reasons but at the same time I think killing those that want to kill us is a better solution than trying to bribe them into friendship.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

We started to do this in Vietnam but when US citizens heard about it they were not to happy. Returning soldiers where spit on and called baby killers. Justifiably in most cases. Americans simply can not stomach what it takes to end this shit.

What the fuck, do you piece your history together from sugar packets you find? Seriously that is some dumb crap you're saying.

 

[Mr. Sam]

ITT: People jump down each other's throats and OHGODDONTHURTME.

 

[Flo_Evans]

What the fuck, do you piece your history together from sugar packets you find? Seriously that is some dumb crap you're saying.

Sorry that was a little off. US soldiers certainly killed babies and did horrible things in Vietnam.

I didn't mean to say disrespecting all soldiers (or even most) was appropriate.

Americans have a certain level of tolerance for military violence. We crossed that line in Vietnam. Taking it out on soldiers who risked their life only to return home to be spat on is not something I agree with. They didn't set the policy, or manufacture the chemical weapons.

I have a deep respect for our troops, I understand that they are following orders in most cases. This guy in the story certainly thought he was following his orders to bring back proof.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Sorry that was a little off. US soldiers certainly killed babies and did horrible things in Vietnam.

I didn't mean to say disrespecting all soldiers (or even most) was appropriate.

Americans have a certain level of tolerance for military violence. We crossed that line in Vietnam. Taking it out on soldiers who risked their life only to return home to be spat on is not something I agree with. They didn't set the policy, or manufacture the chemical weapons.

I have a deep respect for our troops, I understand that they are following orders in most cases. This guy in the story certainly thought he was following his orders to bring back proof.

Okay, we're cool. I don't agree with every point, but you qualified it a lot more than the first post.

 

[Atrus]

Well I disagree, thankfully my plan of total annihilation will not ever be carried out. If we make it clear in no uncertain terms that if we even suspect terrorists are hiding in your village that it will be burned to the ground it would be very hard for these people to re-orginize. They may scatter and pop up other places, but guess what? Burn them to the ground too. Eventually they will get the message that we will do whatever it takes, wherever they hide, and go back to dirt farming or whatever they do.

We started to do this in Vietnam but when US citizens heard about it they were not to happy. Returning soldiers where spit on and called baby killers. Justifiably in most cases. Americans simply can not stomach what it takes to end this shit.

Really no matter what we do there will always be people that hate us. I can understand their reasons but at the same time I think killing those that want to kill us is a better solution than trying to bribe them into friendship.

It's a mix of open hand, iron fist strategy. You extend your left hand in open friendship, and then you crush anyone that doesn't take it with absolute prejudice from your right hand.

During the Communist insurgency in Malaysia, High Commissioner Gerald Templar employed the strategy to great success. It took 8 years to dismantle the Communists but they were completely annihilated by the end of it.

A key aspect was the urbanization and centralization of the sympathizers into sphere's of control. With control, you could easily monitor the people and isolate the enemy from recruiting more members.

Afghanistan as it stands lacks this control. Afghani's live too remotely to be able to request assistance from allied personel and we're building infrastructure in regions where control is fluid and changes frequently.

A good example is the Dhala Dam we're (The Canadians) are rebuilding. It's a vital piece of infrastructure and costs us a pretty penny ($50 million our of our basic services fund) but Kandahar isn't exactly a place I would cite as being absolutely under our control. Worse yet, under our current Conservative government, there's a possibility we might simply cut and run on the project which means little oversight to where the money ends up and a potentially unfinished dam.