-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Guy Says Rude Thing to Person, Gets Fired From Destructoid, Says More Rude Things
- Thread starter Mr. Enigma
- Start date
While I think Dev nailed it, exactly what part of what you perceive as Feminism are you rejecting? The right to live and work in an environment where their bodies are not the issue but rather the quality of their work is? The right not to be marginalized? The desire to be paid equally? What exactly is your problem?
Also, you DO sound really really really unhinged.
Listen to what I am telling you: You're nuts if you actually believe anything you're saying.
Either he's going for the looooooooooong troll or this is what he believes. It's consistent with his posts on GAF for a while now.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
I have no problem with any of those things at all; but I know what I am talking about. If you don't know the issues I am talking about. Don't worry about it however, no need for me to expand. This isn't forum for that.
Well at least someone does.
Devolution
Member
Cutting to the chase as well: Correct. No reasonable person wants to "empower" people to be obnoxious, confrontational children at work.
Provide your opinion? Yes. Express your views? Yes. Be a jerk about it? No. Am I also "disempowering" workers if I suggest they not be allowed to express racist, bigoted views at work? I mean, I am taking a power away from them. It's just a power all reasonable adults agree people shouldn't have.
Yes, obviously rules when taken to extremes can be wrong. I am not in favor of rules being applied absolutely and with no gradients.
First and foremost, the problem with this is again not that it is "silly." If he had instead said, "I like unicorns and purple fairies," that would be a very silly thing to say, but no one would suggest he should be fired for that. The problem, again, is not the factual basis of the claim, but the manner in which it was presented. It is mean, not silly.
Second, this person was not shut down: he was fired. No one is saying he cannot say these things, but we are saying that he cannot work at this specific workplace and say these things. Just like you can say the "N word" as much as you want, but don't expect to be hired as an employee by most companies if you choose to do so.
There is probably a huge amount of spelling errors in there too, since I'm slightly -but apparently sufficiently- intoxicated at the time of this writing. Apologies in advance for any inconvenience that might have caused.
(professional enough?)
This isn't your workplace or profession, but certainly civility is appreciated, yes.
He doesn't really sound much more unhinged than those on the other side I've seen arguing that they have made Lara Croft an almost-rape victim to steal the female power that the character once held.
I'm just curious, do you think Sony is likely to have Nathan Drake face the possibility of rape in a future Uncharted game?
cutmeamango
Banned
A derranged villain like that would certainly be better than the last one. With all honesty.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
now this I want to see. Worth it for the tears alone.
Sure, but that's not really an answer.
I think most people would say that the likely answer is no. Nathan Drake is a powerful character because of his strength and his depth. Showing a male rape scene would by perception make him lose much of his power with the way our culture is socialized to think about male rape.
In the case of Lara Croft it seems that this is more about exploiting the fact that she's a female character and it's "ok" for them to face being raped.
Okay, so let's say that the basic message the journalist conveyed is true.
Let's take another case where what I say is true: one of my coworkers is openly gay. If I addressed him and said, "Hi ________, I understand that you are gay," I would not get in trouble. That is a true statement. Now, if I went up to him, pointed at him, and said, "You're a flaming faggot! You're a flaming faggot!" I would be fired, despite the fact that the basic message is the same; he is gay.
Do you understand the difference? Because the same basic principle is at work here. And all of this assumes that you are correct, that the journalist is absolutely correct in his assessment.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
Thanks, but there's no reason to defend me. I don't mind being mocked. Its not the first time.
Most people see feminism as women's right to votes, to not be threatened in the work place, , to be able to work at all, those nice things, but if anyone went to University and actually dug deep into the social sciences and in concert with going to University itself and have watched over the years the pervasive insidious laws, acts and plans that have been passed or enacted, that have nothing to do with equality, and are still being passed they wouldn't be quick to call me unhinged, when I'm actually very educated, but I don't mind people just dismissing me.
Devolution
Member
Sigh.
Wait, you're saying you were a women's studies major?
Isn't the better question whether or not he would be okay with it? Whether or not he would still be interested in the game or the series? And, most importantly, whether or not the game is still a sound experience? In all honesty, I think a game with a male protagonist in that scenario would be interesting, if done well. And it wouldn't be Drake as we know him know. It would be teenage Drake or kid Drake because of the, you know, origin story -- if you want the equivalency to be sound.
Know your enemy.
I don't see why not, although the common perception is that a female attempting to rape a male is not much of a threat, so it probably wouldn't offer a likable motivation for his bludgeoning her to death.
Why is rape the go-to punchy character building exercise anyway? It doesn't matter what medium it is, rape as the activator for female or male inner-strength is lazy & antiquated writing of gender period.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
I'm sorry for derailing the thread. Please forgive me all.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Does that even matter?
Actually no, because this is really a question of industry standards and practices, I'm sure there are people that would react one way and not another, the issue is why we're going to see one thing and not likely another though regardless of any individual user's preference.
Ask Dan Yo, he brought up video game rape.
Not inherently. It can and has been done very well. Sons of Anarchy had an incredibly powerful moment not too long ago. I'll be nebulous to avoid spoilers. There are a few things in fiction that are inherently lazy (deus ex machina, maybe); I'll generally allow the creator the opportunity to impress.
Standards and practices? I'd say both things are unlikely as they are uncommon in gaming. I'm off-topic enough; this debate will spark up again inevitably. Discuss it then.
Cursed Frogurt
Banned
Nope. Do I care? Nope. If they did would it interest me to play it? Yep, most likely. Push them barriers. Why is it OK for TV/Movies/Fiction but not ok for games? Rape happens. Pretending it doesn't helps whom? I'm willing to wait and see how the makers of Lara Croft handle it before I tell them they're not allowed. Doing so is neither sexist nor misogynistic.
I dont think you did. Not anymore than someone that says Jim's tweets are an affront to every woman on the planet. It's a civil discussion until people start ganging up on one person instead of actually trying to engage them civilly.
I don't think the question at hand is whether it's okay to push barriers -- we're just asking that we do it responsibly, and equally.
In other words, it's okay to be edgy and question boundaries; it's not okay to be sexist or be a bigot. Those aren't "boundaries" that need pushing -- they've been pushed for generations on end, thanks. We've thoroughly explored what a sexist world looks like at this point.
So your first answer -- "nope" -- is the relevant one here. Sony is not likely to put a rape scene in Uncharted any time soon. Why do you think that is? Is Sony a company that never pushes boundaries?
Devolution
Member
It's tacky and overused. It's not empowering in the way they seem to think it is. I want escapism and adventuring not their heavy handed emotional appeals that are exploitative with terrible writing to boot.
Can't have male gamers project themselves onto a female protagonist? Just show her in a compromising position to force sympathy. It's shitty.
Well of course not inherently. I unfortunately can't speak to your example, but there's very few instances I can think of where rape was used as a character builder in a non-exploitative way or in a non-exploitative piece of media. I guess what I'm speaking to is something I read here not too long ago that game writers and designers aren't ready or mature enough to take it on.
Young Nathan Drake being rescued by Sully from an Orphanage where he suffered repeated physical abuse in an escalating succession culminating in an attempted rape by one of his tutors would be "believable". Or in an alternative scenario Nathan struggles with the attacker and in the exact moment he is able to kill the attacker Sully storms in and grabs Nathan to escape from there. I don't think this would weaken the image of "future" adult Nathan as a strong deep character.
Cursed Frogurt
Banned
But rape doesn't occur in the real world equally. It's not out of the realm of thought to think that Lara in the midst of thieves/pirates etc is possibly going to encounter sexual assault. Whereas Drake faces being murdered, having his cohorts (including women) being murdered in front of him in order to get him to do what they want. It's her origin story apparently, and it's pretty compelling. Much like Batman's story of tremendous loss is painful but also tragically interesting. If this is off-base for this forum, I'll stop coming to this thread. I'm admittedly new and possibly naive to how this forum functions. I apologize.
And that's a valid opinion. I just don't want your opinion forcing the devs to change their direction. My opinion is that it's interesting and I want to play it.
Devolution
Member
It's not compelling unless you're new to the "rape/attempted sexual assault makes women into heroines" trope.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Okay.
But this isn't important.
What's important is that you tell you what the Gay Agenda is.
Cursed Frogurt
Banned
It's hardly a gaming trope. If it were I'd be able to name a dozen games with the same storyline. It's compelling to me. When it's done right in any form of media, it's great. When it's done poorly, it's not. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt before I dictate what they can and can't produce.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
I can agree with Opiate only partially. Would Naughty Dog put a rape scene in an Uncharted game, possibly, but it wouldn't be Nathan being raped. They predictably would use one of the female cast regrettably Elena or another female that would be specifically added for that purpose.
On the other hand would I like to see Nathan raped? As long as it makes sense in the narrative. Edward Norton in American History X was viciously raped, I could see Drake ending up in a horrible situation as such, as long as its as tense, brutal, domineering, if done right it could be very disturbing.
On the other hand would I like to see Nathan raped? As long as it makes sense in the narrative. Edward Norton in American History X was viciously raped, I could see Drake ending up in a horrible situation as such, as long as its as tense, brutal, domineering, if done right it could be very disturbing.
I confess, I'm a huge fan of films, comics, and games, probably consuming more than I can comfortably admit to, and even I am new to this "rape/attempted sexual assault makes women into heroines" trope. I can barely think of many movies or games I've seen that even delve into a subject as touchy as rape, much less use it all willy nilly as an easy way of writing characters.
Riposte
Member
That means it's time to abandon ship.
Devolution
Member
Yeah excuse me if I'm doubtful given how females are represented as characters in general that they can tackle such a complicated and sensitive topic.
You haven't encountered Rape Revenge plot lines in films or fiction?
Cursed Frogurt
Banned
So f*** them before they even try, right? And you talk about how the gaming industry is perceived by the rest of the world. What message does it send that you're willing to self-censor all content because it may not be to your liking?
And we really are way off topic now. Apologies to all. I'm out unless more tweets from the mad tweeter ignite a larger fire.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I though Alpha Protocol did an awesome job of twisting the concept of gender security by having one of the sex scenes actually be one of the mercs raping your character.
It went to blackout but that's exactly what happened.
.la1n
Member
Look what you did you little jerk.
ShipTheCheese
Member
Who the fuck is Felicia Day?
*googles*
Seriously, who the fuck is this person?
*googles*
Seriously, who the fuck is this person?
Are you suggesting that an industry that can hardly treat female characters as human beings is capable of writing a story dealing with rape?
Pretty much this.
Anyone who wants hard and fast rules about what shouldn't be allowed in fiction is veering very close to fundamentalists who ban books. The reasoning is essentially the same - no I didn't read the book but the very concept offends my sensibilities.
Is rape in video games or fiction overdone? I don't know. But even if it is an old or overdone idea can still be executed well and turn into a great final product.
I suspect that this won't be done well but to say a priori that the root concept should just never be used is extremely reactionary.
Google didn't work? Bing it then.
You can't apologize for your own flimsy reasoning AND give yourself a convenient out at the same time. Rape as an inner-strength activator has been a trite thing for years and some media is at the point where they parody such kinds of hammy writing because it's legitimately embarrassing. Games don't get a pass just because they haven't had a triple-A studio developed 'rape origin story' game yet.